Garnett Genuis
Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, Alberta · Conservative · Canada
“It is getting increasingly harder for young people to find their first job, and for young families to afford their first home and be able to afford to take those critical steps forward in life.”
“I look forward to talking to people and listening to them over the summer. I would encourage colleagues from all parts of the country to also listen to, respect and try to understand the concerns Albertans have.”
“Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my colleague for his kind words. Indeed, I would welcome him, and all members of this House from all parties, to come to Alberta this summer. Let me know. I would be happy to host. Members could spend some time talking to people in our province to understand some of their concerns.”
“This plan includes vital reforms to parental leave to make it easier for parents who are trying to start a family, maintain a connection to work and earn an income at the same time.”
“Mr. Speaker, I want to extend my best wishes for the summer to all colleagues from all sides. We have fought hard for our constituents, for our convictions and to advance the common good of this country.”
“We have always sought to be productive and constructive by putting forward these good ideas and asking the government to adopt them. Therefore, as we face these ongoing challenges, an affordability crisis and a youth unemployment crisis, will the government take a serious look at what we have put forward, including the Conservative youth…”
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“The distribution of decision-making facilitated by those constitutions creates the possibility of durable friendship between nations that goes beyond individual leaders. What happens when democracies disappoint us? Naturally, we should engage those nations at all levels to make our case, and we should also seek to diversify our engagements across a broad range of democracies, so that problems in one case do not have an overwhelming impact. We can do all this without embracing some false equivalency between fellow democracies and authoritarian powers. They are fundamentally different, and they remain so. The trade deal before the House is, thankfully, a deal with a fellow democracy, Indonesia. Indonesia is the world's most populous Muslim-majority nation and the third-most populous democracy in the world.”
“We should not be indifferent to the real risk that leaders in democracies can strain and even break constitutional safeguards, but as long as those safeguards hold, our friendships with democracies will be more well-founded than our relationships with authoritarian powers, where the will of the people at the top is implemented without question. Rule-of-law nations are more likely to act in legal ways internationally, and might-makes-right nations are guided by that principle in domestic as well as international actions. Our belief in democracy is not a belief in the inevitable virtuousness of democratic leaders; it is a belief in the virtuousness of democratic constitutions.”
“Forces within and without, intentionally or not, are undermining our unity, but even amid real and justified disappointments and frustrations among democracies, there is one central point we must remember: Every nation is more defined by the character of its constitutional order than by the character of its current leaders. What makes democracies different from dictatorships is not the hope that democratic leaders are more personally virtuous; rather it is the fact that democratic leaders are constrained by a constitutional order.”
“The CCP, in addition to interfering in our affairs, continuing to jail our citizens, such as Huseyin Celil, and committing genocide against its own people, is trying to establish strategic control of the flow of resources that will be most critical as technology changes. The goal is for the CCP to be able to use strategic resource domination to direct world affairs. Deals made in the short term that reinforce that long-term strategic domination by our adversaries are neither values-based nor realist. Obviously, it has become more difficult to speak today of an existing democratic world with a shared agenda and shared purpose.”
“The Prime Minister has also spoken at times about this, calling it “values-based realism”. This is a concept that I could get behind in theory, but it is clearly not informing the concrete actions of the government. In reality, the Liberal Party has consistently pursued closer ties with authoritarian regimes. By contrast, Conservatives will be consistent in defending the vision of a free, democratic world that stands together and collectively defends its shared democratic values. I noted that in the Prime Minister 's speech in Davos, he spoke only about “great powers” and “middle powers”, but the distinction between democratic powers and revisionist authoritarian powers remains the most central and defining distinction of our time.”
“For her generation and for the Uyghur children of today, whose genocide remains unrecognized by a Canadian government that wants to make deals with their oppressors, for them and for so many others, we must and we will keep that ideal in mind. Canada must chase its ideals with clear-eyed pragmatism, seeking concrete, meaningful gains rather than symbolic or ephemeral ones, and moving constructively towards those ideals where possible, focusing on what we can actually change. (1740) The very nature of pragmatism is that it implies that there is an objective being pursued. To be pragmatic is to be practical in the process of pursuing some goal. One cannot call oneself pragmatic if one has no goals or ideals at the end of the day, so in this troubled world, we can hold our ideals high while being smart and strategic in their pursuit.”
“The ideals of democracy, freedom, justice and an international rules-based order, founded on a recognition of the created dignity of the human person and the rights of communities of persons to govern their own affairs, express the highest political aspirations of human persons and communities. The dream of a morally grounded, rules-based international order is not a mere sign in the window. While it remains unrealized, it is a concept well worth pursuing. We must not merely accept the world as it is. We must act to create a better world. My grandmother was a Holocaust survivor, and the promise we made to her generation was the promise of “never again”.”
“On ideals, the vision of an international order rooted in fixed principles, foremost among them the dignity of the human person and the right of communities to govern their own affairs, is worth defending. It was never realistic to believe that these ideals would emerge into practice easily and through some natural historical process. Ideals are realized and preserved only through struggle. The rule of law did not come to our own system without sacrifice and struggle, and the realization of the ideal of an international rules-based order will not be advanced or preserved without the same. The Liberal optimism of the past did not pay sufficient attention to this reality. However, while these ideals have never been fully realized, they continue to exist in a more profound sense.”
“Today, Liberal pessimism justifies the same engagement, but this time on the grounds that such engagement is necessary and pragmatic in a world where international rules were always a mirage anyway. How curious that leaders with a range of personal ties and economic interests linked to the PRC have always wanted the same policy outcome regardless of the convenient justification. Regardless, today I call on the House to reject both of these flawed dispositions, the extremes of Liberal optimism and of Liberal pessimism. Instead, I propose that we embrace a view of international affairs that makes room for genuine ideals and for firmly grounded pragmatism.”
“I do want to point out that both of these dispositions, yesterday's Liberal optimism and today's Liberal pessimism, have ironically been used to justify the same policy agenda. The Liberal Party of Canada, at least since Pierre Trudeau, has always wanted to pivot away from a foreign policy of engagement primarily with democracies towards a foreign policy that seeks a kind of strategic balance between the United States and Communist China. The Liberals have always been interested in the idea of ever-deepening engagement with authoritarian powers, especially the CCP, though they have justified it in radically different ways. In the past, Liberal optimism was used to justify engagement with authoritarian powers on the grounds that such engagement would speed us towards the inevitable triumph of democracy.”
“In some quarters, the transformation has been from this naive optimism to a new Liberal pessimism, vividly on display in the Prime Minister 's recent remarks at Davos. No longer is the triumph of freedom, democracy, justice and an international rules-based order presented as history's inevitable endpoint. Instead, the idea of a free, open and liberal international order is dismissed as a mirage, as an allusion akin to the lies once propagated by communist apparatchiks. The argument of the Prime Minister was this false equivalency that both the authoritarian system and the liberal rules-based system are based on lies. The Prime Minister is not merely arguing that a rules-based order is difficult to achieve, under strain or not guaranteed. Rather, he is arguing that the very idea of such an order is fundamentally necessarily an illusion.”
“In an earlier era, Liberal optimism was evident in the attitudes and decisions of elite figures who proclaimed an inevitable march of history towards democracy, freedom, justice and an international rules-based order. Liberals thought it would happen, and they thought it would happen relatively easily. This optimism held, for instance, that engagement and increased trade with China and other authoritarian countries would gradually, inevitably transform their governments into progressive democracies. It is easy to see why Liberal optimism is no longer in vogue. It is no longer popular, because it clearly failed. Authoritarian regimes that were once hiding their strengths and biding their time are now confidently asserting the supposed superiority of their political model and even winning converts in the free world.”
“Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time. Today, the House is debating a trade deal between Canada and Indonesia. It is a deal that Conservatives support advancing to the next stage of consideration. In the context of this agreement, I would like to offer a few observations about the state of the world that have bearing on how and with whom we make international agreements. Over the course of my time following international affairs, we witnessed a dramatic shift in tone and expectations within certain parts of the democratic world. That shift has been from the unrealistic Liberal optimism of the past to the exaggerated Liberal pessimism of the present.”
“The detention has gone on for so long that, sadly, the youngest child in this family never had an opportunity to meet his father before he was taken illegally from a third country and brought to China, where he is incarcerated. He is a Canadian citizen and a human rights activist. I think these specific cases of the Panchen Lama and Huseyin Celil, and other human rights abuses, really put into sharp focus our moral obligations, as well as the strategic importance of defending justice and human rights and defending Canadian citizens. I wonder if my colleague has reflections on that.”
“Mr. Speaker, my colleague referenced some of the human rights violations committed by the CCP. I want to mention to the House that I had the honour this afternoon of meeting with members of the Tibetan Parliament-in-Exile, who are here in Canada. Part of what they are doing is highlighting the case of the 11th Panchen Lama, who was detained and disappeared by the CCP more than 30 years ago. His whereabouts remain unknown. Oftentimes, we hear discussions about the detention of Canadian citizens in the past tense, without acknowledging the fact that we continue to have the detention of Huseyin Celil, a Canadian citizen who has four children here in Canada.”
“Madam Speaker, I just want to pick up on one thing the member said about the most sensitive waters in the world in his defence of Liberal Bill C-48 , which blocked energy pipelines to the west coast. Does the member acknowledge that foreign oil tankers are in the same ocean and in the same areas? Does he acknowledge that preventing exports from Canada does not prevent the presence of exactly the same ships, carrying the same products, in the same waters?”
“In that context, we need to use the power we have to develop our own resources and to establish democratically controlled supply chains for critical commodities, including development here in Canada that will benefit our country. I wonder if the member could share whether she agrees that the overly cynical or even pessimistic approach by the Prime Minister is not warranted when we have the resources and the capacity ourselves to help establish democratic domination of these critical resources.”
“Madam Speaker, I have been thinking a lot about this line from the Prime Minister when he was in China, when he said we should take the world as it is, not how we wish it would be. I think the problem with that line and aspects of his discourse is that it ignores the capacity that we have to create the world we want, the power that our government should have to imagine a world that is not one in which, for instance, strategic industries are dominated by powers that are hostile to their interests. The CCP has a long-term strategy to dominate strategic interests. That is a strategy that will go beyond, for instance, the term of any president or prime minister, most likely.”
“The government's approach is to say that anyone who studies anything at a university can have access to these grants, yet, for students in those kinds of institutions who study for specific career-oriented skills that likely are skills that they can train for only in the career college institutions, the government is saying “no dice”. Why is the government attacking these kinds of institutions and students?”
“Mr. Speaker, there are many different parts of that response that I could pick up on, but let us talk about what is in the budget, very concretely. Page 217 of the budget states: Budget 2025 announces the government’s intention to propose legislative and regulatory amendments to address integrity issues related to private educational institutions by generally limiting access to the Canada Student Grant for Full-time Students to students attending public educational institutions and not-for-profit private institutions within Canada. In effect, that excludes career colleges. As the economy changes in different ways, career colleges are often very nimble, developing new programs to meet new challenges and providing students with very practical vocational skills.”
“That is why, in the fall, the Conservatives announced the Conservative youth jobs plan. We took a very constructive approach. Sadly, the Liberals have moved in the opposite direction in many respects. For instance, we have proposed fixes to training that would support and recognize instances where young people are seeking skills that would make them job-ready. In fact the government is going in the opposite direction by its proposal to pull grant funding from students who are studying at career colleges. We are concerned about the present situation and about the direction of the government that is actually making things worse for young people looking for jobs, homes and hope. In this new year, is the government prepared to change direction and take seriously the constructive proposals the Conservatives have put forward?”
“I will report back to members of the House, and I think it is important to recognize this, that young people overwhelmingly say they are worse off than their parents' generation. Key reasons for that are the employment situation and the housing crisis. The struggle for homes and for jobs is top of mind for today's young people, who are concerned that they do not and will not have the same standard of living as their parents, in particular because of the struggle to afford a home and find a job. Compounding that are general affordability concerns, especially the high cost of food. That is what young people are dealing with in this country. I think that to solve this problem we have to look squarely on the reality that the problem exists, to magnify the voices of young people who are concerned, and to talk about concrete solutions.”
“The latest numbers show a 0.3% increase in the unemployment rate and a 0.5% increase in youth unemployment, from 12.8 % to 13.3%. Those are very high recession levels of youth unemployment, with 73,000 more unemployed, an increase in the number of unemployment of 73,000 people in that month. Meanwhile, while there are employment struggles in the private sector, we have the biggest public sector ever. Those numbers were reflected in the conversations I have been having with young people and people of all ages across the country. In January I visited five different university campuses; I was at U of A, two universities in the Toronto area and two in Nova Scotia. The question I have been asking students is whether they are better off or worse off than their parents' generation.”
“Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to be back in the House. I missed all my colleagues. I trust that feeling is mutual. It is good to be back here to address the business of the nation. I want to offer my condolences to the family of Kirsty Duncan, with whom many of us served. I also want to take this opportunity to express my solidarity with the brave people of Iran, who have endured unspeakable violence and are struggling for their freedom and for respect for their fundamental human rights. As others have said, I believe the lion and the sun will rise again, and we must do all we can to support the brave people of Iran. Tonight I am following up on a question that I asked previously about youth unemployment. Meanwhile there are new figures out on unemployment in this country, and we see the continuance of the youth unemployment crisis.”
“Mr. Speaker, the next petition I will table draws the attention of the House to many Ukrainians who have come here under a CUAET visa and have questions about the government's policy with respect to next steps for them. They want to see the government provide Ukrainians who are currently in Canada temporary emergency measures with—”
“Mr. Speaker, the next petition I am tabling draws the attention of the House to the persecution of Falun Gong practitioners. The petitioners highlight that Falun Gong is a traditional Chinese spiritual discipline that consists of meditation, exercises and moral teachings based on the principles of truthfulness, compassion and tolerance. They describe, in some detail in this petition, the persecution that Falun Gong practitioners have faced and continue to face, including, among other things, forced organ harvesting. The petitioners ask the House to pass a resolution to establish measures to stop the Chinese Communist regime's crime of systematically murdering Falun Gong practitioners for their organs. They want to see the government more forcefully call for an end to the persecution of Falun Gong practitioners.”
“The petitioners, therefore, would like the House to recognize the 1891-93 ethnic cleansing perpetuated against the Hazaras as a genocide and to designate September 25 as Hazara genocide memorial day. They also expressed support for Bill C-287 . This was a bill in a previous Parliament. It is not a bill in the current Parliament, as far as I know.”
“Mr. Speaker, the next petition I will table today highlights the condition of the Hazara people in Afghanistan. The Hazaras are an ethnic minority, indigenous people of Afghanistan, generally also a religious minority. They come from the Shia Muslim community. They faced significant challenges even prior to the Taliban takeover, but their situation is that much more dire now. The petitioners also want to draw the attention of the House to some of the history around past genocides that Hazaras have faced over the last 150 years. They identify the significant Canadian contribution and, therefore, connection to Afghanistan, the significant level of assistance that was given and the loss of over 150 brave men and women in uniform in the fight against the Taliban.”
“They are concerned about how people with disabilities are increasingly limiting their exposure to the health care system for fear of facing pressure from the system to consider euthanasia in cases where they do not want it and have their lives, dignity and well-being challenged and devalued by the system that is supposed to protect them. The petitioners are, therefore, in this case, calling for the end of so-called track 2 MAID. They want the government to protect all Canadians whose natural death is not reasonably foreseeable by prohibiting euthanasia for those whose prognosis for natural death is more than six months.”
“Mr. Speaker, the next petition I would like to present to the House deals with the issue of MAID or euthanasia. The petitioners are concerned, in particular, about so-called track 2 MAID that makes people living with disabilities the only group eligible for medical assistance in dying when they are not dying. The petitioners argue that allowing so-called MAID for those with disabilities or chronic illnesses who are not dying devalues their lives, tacitly endorsing the notion that life with a disability is optional and, by extension, dispensable. They are concerned about the ableist trajectory of our health care system, with euthanasia being proposed to those who are seeking other services.”
“Measures proposed include monitoring and reporting on the human rights situation and addressing the challenges facing North Korean defectors in China and other regions, developing strategies for Canada to assist in protecting North Korean citizens from crimes against humanity and supporting their human rights and freedoms, supporting international efforts to safeguard the people of North Korea from crimes against humanity and supporting political freedoms, including through dialogue with relevant organizations and governments. I thank, in particular, the Korean community for bringing this petition to the House through their hard work, solidarity and concern for those suffering right now in North Korea.”
“They want the Government of Canada to engage actively with international organizations and foreign governments to press the Government of China to allow the safe passage of North Korean refugees to South Korea, where they are recognized as citizens, and to establish initiatives to support the promotion of human rights in North Korea and aid defectors.”
“They have concerns about refugees from North Korea being sent back to North Korea by the Government of China despite the human rights abuses those defectors will certainly face. The petitioners call on the Government of Canada to take the following steps in response to this worsening human rights situation. They want the government to table regular reports in Parliament on these issues, including highlighting concerns about political prison camps, Camp Kwan-li-so and Kyo-hwa-so. They want the Government of Canada to also report on the situation of North Korean defectors and Canadian policy toward North Korean defectors.”
“Mr. Speaker, I will present a number of petitions today. The first petition draws the attention of the House to the worsening situation of human rights in North Korea, as documented by various commissions. These violations of human rights include prioritization of food distribution to those considered useful to the survival of the current political system; a vast security apparatus that suppresses dissent through surveillance, coercion, fear and punishment; public executions; putting citizens in political prison camps; terrorizing the population; and the state-sponsored abduction of citizens of other nations. The petitioners are also concerned about how the People's Republic of China has disregarded or ignored recommendations from the UN commission of inquiry regarding North Korean defectors and other issues.”
“Mr. Speaker, the next petition I am tabling is in support of Bill S-209 , although it says Bill S-210 because that was the number used in the last Parliament. Petitioners support this bill to protect young people, children, from accessing explicit sexual material online. Showing sexually explicit material to children is a form of child abuse, yet it happens regularly online. Many children are accessing violent sexual material at an early age. Well-established methods for age verification that does not involve proof of identity could protect children from this scourge. Petitioners recognize the importance of this and want the House to support the adoption of the bill.”
“Many disability advocates in Canada have expressed opposition to allowing MAID for people with disabilities. Therefore the proposal of this particular group of petitioners is to protect all Canadians whose natural death is not reasonably foreseeable, by prohibiting MAID for those whose prognosis for natural death is more than six months.”
“It is from Canadians concerned about the impact on Canadians living with disabilities. They note how allowing euthanasia for people with disabilities or chronic illnesses has negatively impacted their experience when interacting with the health care system. It devalues their lives, tacitly endorsing the notion that life with disability is optional and, by extension, dispensable. Petitioners say that offering medical assistance in dying as a solution for disability or chronic illness reduces incentives to improve treatment and care for people with these conditions. Canadians do not want a continuing degeneration of public services in an ableist direction, where Canadians seeking unrelated services or accessing health support are pushed toward considering death instead.”
“Mr. Speaker, the next petition I would like to table draws the attention of the House to a quite extreme proposal on euthanasia, or MAID, put forward by Mr. Louis Roy of the Quebec college of physicians. It recommended expanding euthanasia to “babies from birth to one year of age”. This is deeply troubling, but sadly he is not the only person; members of the government have advocated for so-called mature minors, people who are underage, to be eligible for euthanasia. Petitioners want the government and the House to oppose and block any attempt to legalize the killing of children within our medical system. It is hard to believe that this needs to be said, but in the Canada of 2025, it does. I am tabling another petition on the tragic situation around euthanasia in this country.”
“They want the Government of Canada and parliamentarians to advocate for a free, united Cyprus based on relevant UN Security Council resolutions and the European Union's statements in this regard.”
“Further, petitioners note that the United Nations Security Council has passed multiple resolutions calling for the withdrawal of Turkish troops and settlers and the reunification of Cyprus based on respect for fundamental human rights and the freedom of all Cypriots. The occupation has impacted many other communities, and other communities that have been impacted by human rights violations committed by the Turkish state continue to be concerned about these issues as well. The petitioners want the UN Security Council resolutions on Cyprus upheld. They want the government to condemn the illegal occupation, advocate for the immediate withdrawal of Turkish troops from Cyprus and ensure that no Canadian arms, military equipment or technology is sold to Turkey for use against Cyprus or other oppressed groups.”
“Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to present a number of petitions to the House today. The first petition draws the attention of the House to the ongoing illegal occupation of Cyprus by the Turkish military. Petitioners highlight that the Turkish military invasion in 1974 was illegal and brutal, resulting in the ongoing occupation of 37% of the island and 57% of its coastline; that the occupation led to significant human rights violations, including loss of life, mass displacement, the ongoing presence of military forces on the island and illegal settlements; and that the people of Cyprus, as well as the diaspora here and around the world, continue to be concerned about this issue. Cyprus's sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity must be respected.”
“Mr. Speaker, in that member's province, Quebec, 35,000 full-time jobs were lost. [ English ] More than 35,000 full-time jobs were lost in Quebec. The minister says that this is an improvement, that this is good news. It is shocking that the government would celebrate a significant decline in full-time work. Canadians are looking for full-time jobs, so that they can provide for their families. When will they stop congratulating themselves and recognize the problem?”
“Mr. Speaker, let us look at the actual job numbers the member was trying to reference: 9,400 full-time jobs were lost in the last month. The Liberals want to try to pretend that they are doing better by adding part-time numbers in, but the fact that Canadians are desperate and are turning to part-time work because full-time jobs are not available and they desperately need that part-time work to feed their families is not something to celebrate. A continuing decline in full-time jobs in this country is not something to celebrate. When will the Liberals recognize the reality that Canadians are losing the full-time work they need to provide for their families?”
“Mr. Speaker, I, too, am shocked by the heckling by the member for Kingston and the Islands , and I hope his whip will bring him into line. I wonder if the member can say what he identifies in the fact that full-time jobs are down across the country and, particularly, in Ontario.”
“Mr. Speaker, my friend from Kingston and the Islands has given me the opportunity to highlight the jobs numbers that came out this morning. Zeroing in on the province of Ontario, we saw the loss of about 7,000 full-time jobs. I certainly acknowledge that there was a gain in part-time jobs, but there was a significant loss in full-time jobs and a response in part-time jobs. An hon. member: Oh, oh! Garnett Genuis: Mr. Speaker, the member for Kingston and the Islands should recognize the reality. Canadians are poorer, they are struggling, they are desperate for—”
“Mr. Speaker, there is a lot there, but I want to particularly zero in on one thing the member said, which is that he thinks things are generally going well. Fourteen-plus per cent youth unemployment is not things going well. Those are recession levels. This summer, one in five returning students, roughly, was not able to find a job. These are students who rely on the income they earn in the summer to be able to pay for their continuing education. These critical milestones in their life that they are preparing for, which they are trying to get to through work, are being blocked in a large number of cases because of economic failures, a poorly tailored immigration system and a training system that is going to get worse under the government because of a plan to attack students pursuing particular professions.”
“Liberals have refused to implement that plan and have actually gone in the opposite direction. We are going to be seeing new job numbers tomorrow, and I want to ask the government very clearly, why is it moving in the opposite direction with training provisions in the budget? What is the rationale for discriminating against students who go to career colleges that are organized in this way? Why has the government failed to implement the constructive ideas that Conservatives have put forward to unleash the economy, to fix immigration, to fix training and to build homes where the jobs are?”
“We are already in a situation where there is a training mismatch, and the government's solution has been to say that if Canadian young people and the skills the labour market needs are not aligned, we are just going to have temporary foreign workers fill those gaps. What we need to do is support training for young people to acquire skills that align with the labour market, but this budget, by discriminating against students who go to certain kinds of institutions, is moving in the opposite direction. We are going to be seeing new job numbers out very soon. The problem is that we have consistently had over 14% youth unemployment, recession levels of youth unemployment. At this point, we still have significantly higher youth unemployment than we had a year ago. Conservatives have put forward a constructive plan to address this.”
“Targeting the students and not allowing those students to get grants means that students pursuing in-demand skills in certain vocational careers will no longer be able to access that funding. The budget also completely leaves behind polytechnics, where the vast majority of apprentices are trained. We are seeing the government perpetuate this kind of discrimination, where it leans hard into saying the university sector is the only way and continues to leave further behind students who are interested in in-demand skills and vocations that involve career colleges, polytechnics and other areas.”
“We need to unleash the economy, fix immigration, fix training and build homes where the jobs are, but rather than implement our plan, we saw a budget, particularly in the area of training, that goes in the opposite direction. The government has now decided to not give student grants to students on the basis of the institution they are going to, in particular to discriminate against students going to particular private institutions. I think students would not mind going to public institutions if all of the same programs and areas of vocational training were offered in public institutions as are available in private institutions. However, the reality is that there are certain kinds of careers for which virtually all of the formation happens at private institutions.”