Brian Stanley
Laois · Independent · Ireland
“We are going through an epidemic of domestic abuse and violence. In 2025, the Garda had over 67,000 calls in relation to domestic abuse. Seven women were murdered last year, and in many of those cases, it was by a family member, a partner or somebody known closely to the victim.”
“Those fundamentals cannot be ignored. Are supporters of partition really saying that we can continue on this small island with 14 different departments in each jurisdiction working back to back, often in competition with each other? Are they saying that having Twenty-six Counties in the EU and Six Counties out of it makes economic sense?”
“Those who still argue for partition ignore the fact that in a reunified 32-county state, the pension liabilities of those workers in the Six Counties who accrued pension entitlements by paying into the British national insurance system and the British exchequer or employment pensions would receive that portion of their pension liability.”
“Unfortunately, I do not get any sense of urgency from the Minister of State that we are going to have laws introduced in September or October, and that is the crucial issue. Yes, we have rules now, and she listed them out in relation to the signs. However, they are being ignored.”
“The cost is €2.6 billion for the diplomatic mission alone. There is also MI6 and the massive military machine and capacity, including the army, the navy and the Royal Air Force. I saw a figure of €60.2 billion for 2025 and 2026. That amount is due to rise sharply to meet its increased military capabilities.”
“The issue I am raising with the Minister of State is the increase in the number of injuries, including those involving young children, relating to e-scooters and e-bikes. Ten have been killed.”
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“Unfortunately, that seems to be what has happened. A consultant was brought in to meet with residents, families, staff and public representatives and we all participated in this. Views were taken, and the view that came back very strongly supported retention of a facility on the site of Erkina House. The points in favour were the excellent staff in the facility; that it is on a large site in the centre of Rathdowney town with large gardens behind it - it is the old convent house; that it has easy access to shops and a post office directly across the road; and that there is a cafe, local facilities and the health centre, with the library adjacent to it. All of these were used by some of the residents. One person in it was writing poetry. He was moved the other day.”
“I thank the Minister of State and am happy she is here as a resident of Laois. I know she is just inside the border, but she is still in Laois. I raised this back in April 2022. On Holy Thursday of that year, I became aware from a source that there were plans to close Erkina House in Rathdowney. Erkina House at that time had 12 residents and €120,000 had just been spent re-roofing part of the building. There was an almighty campaign to keep it open. The decision to close it was not notified to the Minister at the time, and he confirmed that in writing and here on the floor of the Dáil as well. At the time I predicted that the HSE might sit it out, have a war of attrition and let the numbers dwindle down as people passed on, returned to a ward or a nursing home, or were convinced to go somewhere else.”
“I do not have the resources of a Department to draft this but I think most people will admit it is the best stab at one that has been made here in the past 15 years. Do not kick to touch. I am pressing the Bill to a vote.”
“As I said in my opening contribution, what is delaying this is how Government, senior officials and industries are going to explain to communities that they are going to have to scrap the World Health Organization guidelines. That is not good enough. The first job we have here every day is to protect the health and welfare of the people who send us here. We are all Teachtaí Dála, whether we are Ministers, the Taoiseach, backbenchers, in opposition or whatever. That is our first job. The WHO guidelines are the standard. That is what we should be achieving and we should not be afraid to stick by them. I appeal to Deputies on all sides of the House to work together. If they want to amend the Bill, I am open to doing that. This is my first crack at it.”
“Stronger, newer, updated guidelines that take account of the advances in the scale and ginormous size of these turbines and the technology available now would be better. The issue of solar regulations came up at a meeting of the Joint [ Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage ] the other day. If we are going to regulate solar farms, which are less intrusive, why are we not doing it for these enormous turbines? The Minister of State said she wants me to kick the Bill down the road for 12 months but I am not agreeing to that. I am pressing this Bill. I believe we need to move on it now as we have been dancing around it for long enough.”
“Reading a transcript of his from 2013, he said many of the things I and other speakers, such as Deputies Nolan and Fleming, have said today. As Taoiseach, he has a special responsibility to drive this and push it on. Local groups have not been a bunch of NIMBYs. Most of the people involved just want a little bit of fair play. Many of those groups have spent nights researching information and putting legal cases together, which they should not have to do. They network and try to fundraise and everything like that. They put in huge work and I want to recognise that. We need to have people spending their time doing better things than that. Guidelines can be twisted and moulded.”
“That has not been very good for customers and householders. I fully support using renewable energies. I fully support using wind. One speakers said I stated there were flaws in the Bill. I did not say that; I said people might want to amend this Bill. Some Members might have misunderstood what I was saying. No legislation, including what comes from Government is ever perfect on the first draft. However, a lot of work has gone into it. It is not something that was put together in a week or a month or even six months. If Government or Opposition Members want to amend it, I am open to working with them but we have to try to change this and put a system in place. I cannot figure out what has happened to the Taoiseach.”
“As a member of a county council, which I know is on a smaller scale, but I could get things done in a week sometimes, or a month or year. In here it sometimes takes forever and a day to get things moving. That is not the way it should be. One of the Sinn Féin speakers mentioned that it would put up the price of electricity but did not explain how. I support the idea mentioned by Deputy Heneghan. Like a lot of other countries, if we had a national energy company, we would be trying to utilise this. Some 40 years ago, 95% of our electricity was in public ownership. My understanding is that is down to 25%. We had one of the lowest electricity prices in the European Union 40 years ago when 95% of electricity was in public ownership. We now hover in the top three or four highest electricity prices in the EU.”
“The rest of them are local people who invested in it. They are not bothered about that. They know that this is a good bet and it is working out for them. They got in at a time when wind turbines were not as efficient as they are now. They are even more profitable now that the Chinese manufacturers have really upped the game, as they have done with solar panels. We have not even started with the whole issue of biogas from farm waste. We have not even started to get that now. Farming organisations and the Department are now starting to look at it and I welcome that, but we are coming late to all of these things. These trains were coming down the track at us, and what did we do? We did nothing and the Government is moving too slow on a range of things. The pace is glacier-like. That is the one thing I find frustrating.”
“Some communities had to take judicial reviews, costing €60,000 or €70,000, which they had to raise. People had to go to the Four Courts, and that is not a planning system we should have. When we have to go there, it is all over. That is not what we should have to do. We need to have a better system in this country. If we do it in partnership with people, they can be brought along. If they have a stake in things, it is different. Deputy Fleming mentioned that there may be difficulties regarding the 10% ownership. I take on board what he is saying, but I would also point out that Templederry in County Tipperary is completely community owned. They are not worried about that. They are doing very well out of it. There are 28 shareholders, including the local GAA club and other clubs in the area.”
“My point is that we are in a situation where all of these sources have to be used and that is why we have boxed ourselves into a corner where we are being told that, to meet our obligations, we have to produce 80% from onshore wind. That is actually questionable. A lot of this is being done to export. Deputy Heneghan mentioned how a lot of the excess generation is being wasted when all the turbines are going and the grid cannot take it. That is the nature of the wind: it is intermittent. It is a brilliant source of energy. I support it but it has to be done with other sources. We cannot put all of our eggs into one basket and that is what Government has done. Communities in Wolfhill, Spink, Timahoe, Ballinakill, Durrow and Cullahill and right across north Kilkenny are now facing into these situations.”
“The amount of solar is minuscule, and with anaerobic digestion we are only in the thought process part of it, and we have a huge problem with animal waste. The Minister of State knows that from being in government. We have a huge problem. What do we do? We have a very strong agricultural sector and that is good, but we have a problem with agricultural waste. A lot of that waste can be utilised for biogas. That is what they are doing in other countries and we should be doing the same. We have not even really got going with hydrogen yet. Solar, as I said, is really only starting. The top boys and girls in the Department have dismissed hydro over the years, yet we built Turlough Hill in the 1970s and had to pump water up to it, and it provides peak electricity.”
“I remember going to France seven or eight years ago about it, as part of an Oireachtas delegation, to meet the electric company over there. Representatives from Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and I went there. It is a great idea, but the problem is we just cannot keep putting this back. The Minister of State mentioned that the 2006 guidelines are still there, but they include a 400 m setback. We are now getting to a point where if one of these turbines fell, it would nearly hit a house because they are so high. This is causing real problems. The reason we have to get this 80% from onshore wind, and I remember arguing this with Phil Hogan in this Chamber, and he is gone out of here a good while, is because we have not developed the other sources. Offshore has not happened, except for the Arklow one, which is there a number of years.”
“I thank everybody for their contributions. I have listened very carefully to what people have had to say. The debate has been constructive but we need to move from discussion and debate to action. I will be pressing the Bill because I think we have kicked to touch too many times on this already. The Minister of State mentioned that significant progress has been made; it has not. She mentioned that the noise issue is causing the delay. I do not have the exact wording but it is in the script. That is the issue. Are we going to ignore World Health Organization guidelines so as to allow these international investors to plant turbines to export energy overseas? I do not have a problem with exporting energy. If we have a surplus, then by all means we should. I fully supported the Celtic interconnector.”
“I appeal to the Minister of State and the Government to grasp the nettle on this issue once and for all and stop chasing something it cannot do, namely, providing 80% of renewable energy through onshore wind. We need to bring on solar power, hydrogen, anaerobic digestion and all the other methods that can be used. The Government will not be able to achieve its aim without getting the backs up of local communities right across the country, including in County Cavan, where the Minister of State lives.”
“What is there at the moment is as weak as dishwater. Do not let anyone ever tell you anything else. These companies, their solicitors, their planning experts and all the consultants they have hired are on top of this game. There is big money in this and big investment firms behind it. Bord na Móna has been somewhat better in taking the concerns of local communities into consideration. Some people might dispute it, but that has been my experience. Deputy Nolan might have a different experience in County Offaly, where some may not have been happy with it. Generally, though, Bord na Móna works better with local communities. This Bill is what we need to do. If we do not have legislation, we need to put a moratorium on developments until we do have proper legislation, regulations and guidelines in place.”
“This means that because we have not developed the other sources I mentioned earlier, we are relying almost totally on onshore wind. The correspondence continues by stating that to achieve this target, the 2021 climate action plan set an indicative target of 8 GW for onshore energy by 2030, and that it had to be doubled. This is the crux of what is going on here. The Government and senior officials in the Department have been hopping from one foot to the other for the last 14 or 15 years on this issue, but particularly in the last five years. Deputies from the Government benches need to take this on board. We have to make a decision on it. When there are no guidelines, never mind regulations, these companies behave as if it is a gold rush. If we have a situation where no system is in place, then anything goes.”
“I also have an exchange of letters between the then Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Darragh O’Brien, and the then Minister for the environment, former Deputy Eamon Ryan. In a letter of 18 November 2021, it is stated that these noise limits, the WHO ones, were agreed in the context of 2020 targets to generate 40% of electricity from renewable sources. It went on to say that as in so many other cases of public policy, the current context was fundamentally altered in the light of our ambitious targets to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 51%, which we all support, over a period from 2018 to 2020. It further set out that to achieve this, the greenhouse gas emissions reductions target we have through the national development plan set out a quota to generate 80% of our electricity from renewable sources.”
“In 2020, the Government set a target that 40% of renewable energy would come from onshore wind. That is very doable. We could probably do even more than that. In 2021, the Government doubled that to 80% and stated that 80% of all renewable energy would come from onshore wind. That is not doable and it would require standing proper planning on its head. That is what is happening. The casualty there has been the noise limits set by the World Health Organization, WHO, which have been shredded. They could not be allowed to get in the way of totally unrealistic targets. If we were in any doubt about this, we have a letter here from the HSE that set this out very clearly to the Minister of State, Deputy Niall Collins, on 20 November 2025. The letter sets out very clearly what it means.”
“Very importantly, section 11 provides for co-ownership. Wind turbine developers shall provide an opportunity for local residents to purchase up to a 10% stake in wind turbine developments as part of a community co-operative model of wind turbine. The initial development has to be offered to residents who live within a 4 km radius of the turbines. After that, they can be offered to people outside that radius. It is really important that it happens. The Bill provides for a number of measures to give people the necessary protections. I will deal first with the noise issue. The World Health Organization, WHO, has guidelines on international best practice. This is the crux of the matter and what is holding things up. In 2017 we had the launch of the preferred draft approach.”
“Section 6 specifies that any turbine over 30 m in height can only be located a distance of not less than 7.5 times the height of the turbine. It is really important that we set that down because that is not being complied with in any way at the moment. It is really important that what is outlined in section 6 is put in place. Section 7 deals with transitional matters in terms of the duties of planning authorities. It sets out their responsibilities, including An Coimisiún Pleanála. Section 8 sets out penalties that can be set by the Minister. That is important. The Minister would do that by way of statutory instrument, in terms of setting the level of responsibility. Section 9 sets out that companies must provide financial evidence in terms of being able to put up bonds. Section 10 deals with responsibility for decommissioning.”
“Section 4 sets out in detail the need for public consultation and a number of measures to be taken in terms of public notices, providing for a non-technical assessment to be made available, the potential impact of the proposed construction on the host community, the measures to prevent and to reduce that effect, the length of time of the construction and the planning gain for the local community. Section 4 sets out in great detail that there must be greater consultation. Section 5 deals with noise and shadow flicker. This is very important because we know it is a real problem. At the moment there are houses where shadow flicker passes over them. This is unfair to residents. The Bill clearly sets out that they need to be located far enough from dwellings but that is not happening. We must protect the residents.”
“I am not saying it is exactly what we need, but a good bit of work has gone into it and it would certainly put some shape on this and go a long way towards what we need. Section 3 deals with the location of wind turbines. It must be consistent with local county development plans. Despite what Ministers say, that is not happening at the moment. Wind turbines are being put in areas that are not designated under county development plans. Indeed, these companies are riding roughshod over the county development plans. That must happen because as Members know, those plans are made by democratically elected local councillors and it is important that local democracy is upheld.”
“They are only in their infancy, and some have not even started. Regulation for solar energy is being drafted and while that needs to be done, what is happening in terms of wind turbines? At times we were told that the delay in the guidelines or regulations is due to difficulty sorting out the appropriate level of noise to be allowed, but it has been a full decade and a half. In terms of Ministers, I remember debating this with Phil Hogan in this Chamber, and Alan Kelly, Denis Naughten, Richard Bruton, Eamon Ryan and now Darragh O'Brien. Six Ministers have come and gone and we are on the fifth government and still there are no guidelines. This is inexcusable. It is fine if people want to amend the Wind Turbine Regulation Bill 2025 that I am bringing forward.”
“Many constituents have asked me who exactly is in charge. That is an interesting question. Wind energy is important, but we must use utilise it along with other renewable sources. The Government has focused almost exclusively on wind. While it is a good source of clean energy, it is intermittent. That can lead to surges on the grid when there is plenty of wind and turbines have to be shut down. More than 10% of electricity is unused but it has to be paid for and the cost amounts to billions. If we look at the figures for what has been paid over the last five years, it was €263 million in 2021 and last year it was €251 million. It is a sizeable amount of money that is being paid out. Little effort has been made to develop solar, anaerobic digestion, hydro, hydrogen, or offshore energy.”
“When I tried to introduce a similar Bill nearly five years ago, time was allocated on a Wednesday, but it was stopped at that time by the leader of that party. I hope Sinn Féin is able to do better than that today. I hope they can support this Bill. I was told at the time that it was due to the fear of media reaction. It is the people who elect us, not the media and they are who we need to represent. The Irish Wind Energy Association, which represents wealthy investors, has done an excellent job. The association is regularly in and out of these buildings. The propaganda is all persuasive until we dig deeper. A lot of people seem to be taken in by it. Planning is a balance. As I said at the outset, this is not about stopping it; it is about having a balance in the planning system which is not there at the moment.”
“Of course they are going to do that. This is a huge problem for rural communities. I mentioned Laois and Offaly in particular. At the moment, a huge number of wind turbines are planned right across the area of the south Laois-Kilkenny border. These turbines can be put up in close proximity. People have to put up with the noise, shadow flicker and the sterilisation of surrounding lands. Once the wind turbines are erected, even on their own land a son or daughter cannot get planning permission to build on the family farm because of the proximity of the turbines. Along with inaction from the Department and the Department of local government, all three of the largest parties have sat on their hands. While the Government has been in a state of paralysis, the largest Opposition party has not moved on it either.”
“Meanwhile, these giant turbines have sprung up all over the country, particularly in the midlands and especially in Laois and Offaly. They cover huge tracts of land and their scale has massively increased since the 2006 guidelines were put in place. At that stage, turbines were 30 m or 35 m in height but they are now multiples of that and reach 185 m in height. Some are located only metres from rural homes. They are mainly owned and directed by large foreign investment funds, which are riding roughshod over local communities. Where they meet opposition, they will often bribe or try to bribe a section of the community and use their clout to browbeat the remainder of the community. They are taking advantage of the absence of regulations or even guidelines. They behave as if it is the gold rush and grab the opportunity.”
“[He said this was a scandal] Above all, there is an absence of a legislative framework to deal with the step change in technology and scale of development. He cited concerns about the health impacts of shadow flicker, noise, and so on. I could keep quoting from his speech from that day, but that is what he said. The replies I am getting here for 13 years are the very same. The most recent one I got from the Minister stated that his "Department is currently undertaking a focused review of the 2006 Wind Energy Development Guidelines", which is looking at a number of key issues including the noise aspect of the guidelines, which is highly technical in nature. That is the same reply I have been getting for the last 12 years.”
“I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time". The absence of guidelines or regulations for wind turbines is absolutely scandalous. We have been relying on outdated guidelines from 2006 for over a decade and a half. The Bill is about putting a proper planning framework in place. It is not about stopping the utilisation of wind but having wind turbines in the right place and at the right scale. Four governments have come and gone. We are on government No. 5 and no action has been taken. We have had paralysis by the Government on this issue for over a decade and a half. This is what Micheál Martin said on the matter in the Dáil in 2013: There is a fundamental absence of transparency governing these developments. There is an absence of consultation with local residents and communities.”
“On a point of order, where are the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Browne, and the Minister for the environment, Deputy O’Brien? Neither of them is in the Chamber. That is no disrespect to the Minister of State, Deputy Smyth, who is here and is fielding a lot of issues. It is disrespectful to the Chamber that neither Minister is here for an issue as important as this, but that is where we are at. I wanted to express that.”
“In Portlaoise, they have to go in under the railway bridge, which they sometimes get caught under, and in by the roundabout in the centre of the town. The road from the Mountmellick Road across has to be connected with the motorway on the north-eastern side of Portlaoise. I appeal to the Tánaiste to go back to the drawing board with this. I heard him say there may be other measures to come. There is a list on the back page of this document and, as he knows, when something is not listed on that, it is going to be a battle to do it. I ask the Tánaiste to make sure that happens and that the promises made before the election are kept.”
“I thank the Tánaiste. There is no point in the Department of local government, under the Minister, Deputy James Browne, publishing lists like this and projecting huge growth for a county unless the infrastructure goes in along with it. I did not mention the need for health centres, schools - the courthouse in Portlaoise as well, by the way - and many other things, such as flood relief schemes, that are needed in the county. If we are going to have sustainable development, we have to take transport into account. At the moment, with regard to the N80, trucks from the west and everywhere else have to wind their way through the narrow streets of Mountmellick and around the junction at Pearse Street, Patrick Street and Market Square, which the Tánaiste saw for himself.”
“We also need to relieve the congestion on the N80, and that can only be done by the Mountmellick relief road and the northern orbital route in Portlaoise.”
“All the red lines in this document show where they are needed throughout the county. Graiguecullen, Borris-in-Ossory, Ballinakill, The Swan and Timahoe need wastewater improvements, while Portarlington, Durrow, Mountrath, Stradbally, Rathdowney and Ballylinan need expansion in water supply. It is critical that we have this infrastructure for the council and private developers to be able to provide the housing. Will the Tánaiste go back to the drawing board with this review and ensure that Laois receives some funding, particularly for the Portlaoise northern orbital route and the Mountmellick relief road but also for the expansion of wastewater and water services? We cannot have houses unless we have services. It cannot be done.”
“As I said, the county is in the top three in terms of population expansion. Now, the local authorities are being asked to zone huge tracts of land. Without it being serviced, this land will be useless. People will have to get in and out by helicopter because there will not be roads. The infrastructure is required or it will stall these housing projects. It is not possible to build 1,200 or 1,300 houses per year unless these projects go ahead. The roads that are critically needed are the Portlaoise northern orbital route and the Mountmellick relief road, which is critical, as the Tánaiste saw himself when he was down last year. To open up all that land, particularly across the north and west of Portlaoise, the northern orbital route is required. Water services need to be expanded according to Uisce Éireann and the document I have here.”
“The national development plan review published yesterday has approximately €202 billion in capital funding between now and 2030. On 22 July, the Tánaiste said we were prioritising investment in water, energy and transport and laying the groundwork for 300,000 new homes. That is 50,000 a year. The Government will not be able to do it. It prioritised Laois but I will come back to that. The Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage has set out in its recent national planning framework document the projected need for 1,244 additional houses per annum in County Laois, on top of what is already being provided. This is a huge expansion in population. A 35% increase in population over the next nine years is what is being projected. This comes on top of five years of very rapid growth.”
“Yesterday, we had the publication of the National Development Plan Review 2025 - Securing Ireland’s Future Sectoral Investment Plan: Transport. A number of bypasses are needed in County Laois but it looks like the whole county was bypassed for funding. The Tánaiste was down there this week last year, exactly 52 weeks ago, canvassing for the general election. Huge housing developments are needed in Laois. There has been rapid population growth in the county. It has been one of the top three counties in terms of population growth in the last three years. There is huge pent-up demand for housing and for infrastructure but we cannot have the housing without the infrastructure. Throughout the county, there is a need for roads, water services, wastewater services, sewerage services and electricity services to be expanded.”
“I do not like saying that. I do not want it to be taken off them either. The point I make is that the children in that family had been sick but they could not go to the doctor in the month of November. The Minister of State might recall how cold the weather was when she was canvassing last November. I remember the man saying that to me at the door one freezing cold night. It is not good enough that we do that. We must help those people. We must help the workers and their families in this country. We have had a lot of time to do it and we have made a lot of progress, but the one thing that has not moved, that is frozen in time, is the income thresholds for medical cards.”
“I know people automatically get a medical card if they are on social welfare, but they are not automatically entitled to it if they are working in a part-time job and that is their only income. That is an absolute scandal that we are ignoring that group of people. They are the people who cannot get a house. They cannot get a mortgage. They are paying taxes. They have to get to work. They have to make payments on cars and everything else, yet they and their children have no health cover. I was challenged by a man while I was canvassing at this time last year for the general election. I know him and his wife, as she comes from the same area as me. He said to me that the people beside him have a medical card. He said he does not begrudge them it, but he does not have one. They had it by virtue of their status in this country.”
“Even if they have an occupational pension of typically €80 to €120 a week, it is a huge pull on it every week. We must do better than that. We must try to move to Sláintecare. I asked the Minister, Deputy Carroll MacNeill, before the budget if in the short term we could do something to help the 1.3 million citizens who do not have medical card cover. They are mainly workers and their families. It is unfair. The income threshold for the medical card has not changed for as long as I am here, and even before that. I am open to correction on this, but as I recall it is more than 20 years since the income threshold was increased. It is €186 for a single person. The lowest rate of social welfare for a single person is over €230.”
“Per head of population we are counted as one of the richest countries. It is not a panacea for all. They have an NHS in the North, but that is not perfect. There are big long waiting lists. My niece works in it and I know all about it. It is a difficult system. If you put in the system and you do not put in the necessary checks, balances and procedures, you wind up with that result. We do need to move to a single-tier system to ensure the people I referred to at the outset do not feel compelled to pay €40 to €60 a week. We can work it out. The charges amount to €2,000 or €3,000 a year. If you are on a pension of €280 or €285 a week, and you have to pay €40 to €60 a week, that is the first thing that goes out of it. That is a huge pile of money, and a huge take out of the income of a pensioner.”
“Money, budget and action need to be a straight line so that people can see exactly who is accountable along the way, that the route is the shortest possible one, and that there are not too many diversions. We must do that. As I recall, the implementation programme for Sláintecare is a ten-year one. We do not have that much time left in it. I accept that Covid slowed it down. I also accept that that is the real world. I am not going to shout at the Government about that. That is something that we all had to deal with. We might have dealt with it differently if it came up now, but everybody did their best at the time and they did what they thought was right. We have to get Sláintecare up and running. We are an outlier in Europe. We do not have a national health system comparable to other north European countries.”
“However, I question the value for money that we get and the gap between the money actually going over to Miesian Plaza - the headquarters of the Department of Health - and the actual services on the ground. It is a long and winding road. The one thing I would implore of the Ministers is that they would make sure that they can track where that is going. The Comptroller and Auditor General's office would have had difficulty at times trying to follow that route. In the five-year period I was there, I and the members of the Committee of Public Accounts had difficulty. We tried very hard at times and we made some progress, but it is a difficult route to follow. That route must be shortened.”
“The fact is that a lot of people do not have the option. Risk equalisation is based on having an annual adjustment. It is a logical approach, which spreads that burden. I want to address value for money in the health system. We had the 100th anniversary of the Committee of Public Accounts today. As a former Cathaoirleach of the committee, I attended the celebration. There is no doubt that people in the health system are doing great work, but its finances are shrouded in fog. We put in a lot of money as a percentage of GDP. We are behind some other countries, but we have a high GDP, which is good. In terms of hard cash, we compare very well with other countries. We exceed the amount put in by most of them. I have no argument with that given where I come from on the left of the political spectrum.”
“They get up every morning and drive their car to Dublin to work on a building site all day or they drive wherever elsewhere to work a ten-hour shift. They are doing the best they can and they do not even have basic health cover. That is what we need to change. We are stuck with the current system. I accept that we have to do this every year and the risk equalisation fund is the only way it can be done. We are where we are. While we are here, we have to do this to spread out the burden. If we were to charge those who most need healthcare on the basis of their age and their health needs, they would not be able to do it. We would have people falling through the cracks. I recognise that the system has to be supported. That is recognising the real-world situation we are in now, but what I am saying is that we need to change the current model.”
“These are the same people who cannot get on a local authority housing waiting list. Many workers and their families cannot get on a local authority waiting list. They cannot get a mortgage - and if they do get a mortgage, they are crucified trying to pay it out of their wages. Most likely, they are paying for a car to travel to work. If they are in private rented accommodation, they are really at the mercy of a wild west system. Let us just think about these people for a minute. They are trapped in a very difficult place. On top of all of that, they do not have medical cover. I have met those people, as has the Minister of State. They ask me why they are being left out the whole time. They pay taxes.”
“Are we seriously being told we should go down the route of the American model where you have to be a millionaire, or very close to it, before you can get your appendix taken out or something else done? That is not where we need to go. We need to look after people. Let us look at the figures in this country. Some 2.53 million people have private health insurance. A total of 1.57 million have medical card cover. This is based on figures from the start of the year, and they are probably still fairly accurate. However, we have 1.3 million who have neither - that is 1.3 million people without proper healthcare of any kind. Some of them may have a GP-only card, which I acknowledge is a help, but it is still a long way off. A small number of people have that card. Let us look at this category of people for a moment.”
“There are those who profess that the private sector will sort everything. If somebody wants to operate a private hospital, that is all well and good. Good for them. It is okay if they want to do that but it needs to be separated out. I welcome the 80%-20% consulting model. That is a step in the right direction but we need to go the whole way on that. Mary Harney famously said that we could go with either the Boston model or the Berlin model. What she meant was that we would go with the American model. Previous speakers have said that we should go with the Thatcherite private model. That is the system in America. How has that worked out? You have to be a millionaire to get treatment.”
“While we are stuck with having to use private health insurance, the Government needs to address the charges put on public facilities by private companies such as VHI and Laya. There are flaws in this approach to private health insurance. It is based on profit rather than medical need. It is a two-tier system. Every week, I see examples of people who urgently need medical care or surgery. I am sure it is the same for the Ministers of State. This surgery could be a hip replacement. The scandal of the two-tier system is that in spite of what the proclamation read out in 1916 said about treating everyone equally, these people are being told that, if they pay, they can be brought in next week but, if they cannot pay, they will have to sit there for two or three years. I have seen several examples of that. That is what we need to change.”