Jim O'Callaghan
Dublin Bay South · Fianna Fáil · Ireland
“This relates to section 69 of the Bill as passed by Dáil Éireann, which amends Schedule 5 to the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005 to add the Courts Service to the Schedule.”
“The first four amendments in this group are minor drafting corrections. They corrected the wording in four places so that the Bill reads consistently. It is changing the word "references" to "a reference". They make no change to the substance or effect of the Bill.”
“The ARP scheme was introduced in July 2022 to recognise the generosity of members of the public who opened their houses, whether in their entirety or through the provision of a room, at their own expense to provide shelter to people displaced by the Ukraine war. The Department of Social Protection administers the scheme on my behalf.”
“I have no doubt it will be challenged, and I have to be able to convince a court, if it is being challenged, that this legislation weighs up conflicting interests and recognises there is a mechanism for somebody who has reformed himself to get off the register.”
“The scheme has been a lifeline for people from Ukraine displaced by the conflict, given high rental market rates and scarcity of rental accommodation.”
“I thank the Leas-Cheann Comhairle in the first instance for presiding over these Stages of the legislation. I am very pleased that this legislation has been enacted. I want to thank a few people very briefly. I thank Deputy McAuliffe for introducing me to Jason Poole. I thank Senator O'Loughlin for her work on this issue in the Seanad.”
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“Each request for the issuing of a certificate will be considered on a case-by-case basis following receipt and review of records. Again, I express my sincere sympathies to those who experienced detention in industrial schools. I hope that confirmation that the State does not consider these individuals to have a criminal record is a small but meaningful acknowledgement of the need to repair this harm.”
“Children who were detained in industrial schools and who were subsequently transferred to a reformatory school, solely by virtue of their detention in the industrial school, are likewise not considered to have had any criminal record. No person, and in particular no agency of the State, should regard these individuals as having committed a criminal offence or having a criminal record. I can also confirm that if individuals wish to have further confirmation that they do not have a criminal record arising from their detention in an industrial school or transfer to a reformatory school solely by virtue of their detention in an industrial school, that confirmation can be provided in the form of a written certificate, including posthumously.”
“I echo and confirm my support for the apology made by the Taoiseach today on behalf of the Government. I also endorse the words of the Tánaiste and the Minister for education. I share my colleagues' deep sense of regret for the pain and suffering experienced by those who experienced detention in industrial schools. I now want to make an official statement, as Minister for justice, in respect of people detained in industrial schools. I know that this is an important official statement for Mary, Mary, Miriam and Maurice and that it will provide them with some solace. As Minister for Justice, Home Affairs and Migration, I confirm that the State did not and does not regard individuals as having committed a criminal offence and that no criminal record is recorded against them by virtue of their detention in any industrial school.”
“I am sure there are other mechanisms, aside from official State commemorations, whereby support can be provided to local groups who want to commemorate important historical events. To close on an important point, obviously we all come to commemoration with our political biases and our political interests involved. It is also essential that we recognise we have to be inclusive about commemorating events. This country has been very inclusive, as we commemorated the Ulster Covenant, which was not an issue a lot of people in the House would have thought they would have been supportive of. It is important that we commemorate events that may not suit our political agenda. I thank Deputy Ó Snodaigh for raising this important question.”
“The State is not involved in this; it is not on the list of events that the State has decided to commemorate, although it could very well be but it is not. Simply because the State has not decided to assume responsibility for it does not mean that individuals who are interested or individuals who are involved cannot seek to celebrate events that are particularly special and-or important to them. Deputy Ó Snodaigh has obviously done this in respect of the Catalpa and I commend him for it. Even just having this debate here this morning is important, as we are promoting the narrative about the remarkable rescue. I have no doubt Deputy Ó Snodaigh will continue to highlight this. I am very pleased to say that Bryan Dobson and his committee are aware of it.”
“I agree with Deputy Ó Snodaigh. The rescue by the Catalpa is a fantastic story. Irrespective of the prejudices Deputy Ó Snodaigh and I have, and that other people have, for preferring certain commemorations over others, it is objectively a fascinating story that deserves to be reported and promoted. In a way, it is a bit like the story of the Invincibles in the aftermath of the Phoenix Park killings and what happened there. Deputy Ó Snodaigh emphasised, as I did, that the State does not have to be the one driving every commemoration. For instance, as the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach, Deputy O'Connor, is well aware, last evening I attended an event in the Rotunda to start the celebrations for the centenary of Fianna Fáil.”
“The important thing is that we are not just looking to the past but that we are educating Irish people and, indeed, the world about the great story of the Irish struggle for independence. It is a magnificent struggle that we should seek to promote to the world. When we think of other important events, there will be a significant celebration in respect of Catholic emancipation. This was an issue that deserves to be recognised. It liberated the overwhelming majority of Irish people from discrimination and unfair treatment. I hear what Deputy Ó Snodaigh has said and I welcome that he raised this issue today. The Department, of which I am not a Minister, does not have official plans to commemorate the Catalpa but we can certainly celebrate it.”
“The Deputy will be aware that when it comes to official State commemorations, not every individual event can become an official State commemoration. This does not mean that we do not celebrate other important events and discuss them in the House. As I said, we have commemorated very many significant events professionally and, I think, sensibly here. When we look at what is ahead of us, a number of other important significant events are going to occur in the next number of years. Last year we celebrated the 250th anniversary of the birth of Daniel O'Connell and it was done very well. Some outstanding documentaries were made in respect of it. Ruán Magan made an outstanding documentary in respect of Daniel O'Connell's life.”
“It is beneficial that the committee is aware of the event and that the Deputy has raised it. Obviously, John Devoy played an essential part in the Catalpa rescue. In my capacity as the Minister for justice, individuals have come to me in respect of the rescue by the Catalpa of the Fenians out in Perth. It is an important issue that we are discussing here today. I had the privilege many years ago to be in Fremantle Prison in Perth. It is a long way away and a lonely place to be if you are an Irish person, particularly back in the middle of the 19th century. It was a fantastic rescue. It is an essential part of the history of the Irish struggle for independence and it is important that we remember it.”
“The Department, in which I am not the Minister, has done a very good job of respectfully commemorating important events that happened 100, 150 and 200 years ago. It is important we continue in respect of that. The Deputy will be aware that a commemorations advisory committee was established in May 2025 under the chairmanship of Bryan Dobson, the distinguished former broadcaster. It includes individuals from across the board in academia and politics. I am informed, and pleased to say, that the anniversary of the Catalpa rescue has been brought to their attention. I am asked to say that the committee agreed that a State commemoration to mark the event would not be possible at this stage because of the proximity of the anniversary, which, as I said, takes place two months from now.”
“I thank Deputy Ó Snodaigh. I am very pleased I have temporary responsibility for the issue of commemorations in the Department of culture. I agree with the Deputy that it is important that we should celebrate the great rescue by the Catalpa and how it carried out the rescue of the six military Fenians. The 150th anniversary of that important event is approaching in April this year and I commend the Deputy for raising this issue in the House this morning. Obviously, the State gets involved in many official commemorations. Aside from that, it is important that we recognise as a community and as elected representatives in this House that we also have a responsibility and an ability to celebrate great historical events.”
“I do hear what the Deputy is saying in respect of the importance of the skate park and the psychotherapist role. I will engage with officials in my Department and continue to engage with the Deputy. I look forward very much to coming out to Ballyfermot skate park.”
“I am going to come out to the skate park and get an update from officials in respect of what is available. We can engage with other ministerial colleagues as well to see if any other emergency funds are available for the purpose of such essential community projects as the skate park. I do have to just emphasise again the purpose of the community safety fund. It is a small fund, only €4.5 million. I am hoping to get it up even further than that this year. The fund tries to pick deserving projects around the country doing very useful work to ensure that communities are safe, particularly communities disadvantaged as a result of criminal activity. If I get into the trend of saying we have set multi-annual funding that is always going to come from the fund, the application process and the diversity of the fund will be altered.”
“I agree with the Deputy. It is an essential part of ensuring we get youth diversion from criminal activity that we put in place facilities and services for young people. We had a very important discussion in this Chamber recently about scramblers and how young men and boys were using them, but we need to try to provide alternative avenues and opportunities for people to engage in certain types of activities of interest to them. I fully appreciate the skate park is something Ballyfermot Youth Services wants to see continue. I want to see it continue just as much as the Deputy does. I will engage with officials in my Department in respect of it. I just want to be careful about giving false hope that this can be sorted out this year in the short term.”
“It is important to say it is not intended to provide long-term or continuous funding for projects. Nonetheless, I am conscious of the valuable role of the Ballyfermot Youth Service. It clearly delivers important supports throughout the community. I urge Ballyfermot Youth Service to engage with the national community office in my Department and get an assessment of the application process. Obviously, it did it before and was successful in its applications on two occasions. I think it got funding of €150,000 for 2025. I ask the service to engage with my Department. The community safety fund application process will be opening up again this year.”
“When I get money into the fund, I seek to distribute it so as to ensure communities affected by criminal activity predominantly see the benefit. That is why the fund has been used so well in supporting projects addressing youth engagement, domestic violence, restorative justice and substance abuse. I agree with the Deputy that the funding of the skate park and psychotherapist post show the fund is playing an essential part in Ballyfermot in terms of what it seeks to do. I have to point out, however, that the purpose of the community safety fund is not to provide repeated, consistent, annual funding. Because it is a limited and small fund, the objective is to pick projects in areas of disadvantage around the country and provide funding for individual projects.”
“The Deputy will be aware the community safety fund has been an important part of the State's response to ensuring we have community safety. The then Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Michael McGrath, permitted the establishment of this fund in 2022, along with the then Minister for Justice, Deputy McEntee. Proceeds of crime seized by CAB are partially invested back into the community through the fund. Since 2022, over 127 community safety projects across Ireland have benefited from the fund. In 2025, I achieved allocation of a budget of €4.4 million to it. For 2026, I achieved a further increase to a figure in the region of €4.75 million. This reflects the importance of the fund and why it is so necessary.”
“I thank Deputy Ardagh for raising this important issue. I am aware of the outstanding work Ballyfermot Youth Service does. I know it from talking to the Deputy and other representatives and from my own general knowledge in respect of it. I want to see that excellent work continue. Before I came in here this morning, I had a look at the website for Ballyfermot Youth Service and I could see the extent of the outstanding work it does for youths in the community. The Deputy's concern is about funding that previously came to the Ballyfermot Youth Service from the community safety fund, particularly regarding the skate park and the psychotherapist posts. Before responding to that, I will bluntly state that I will take up her invitation. I will come out to the skate park. I will not get on a skateboard but I will certainly come out to see it.”
“One of the downsides of specifying what a term means in legislation is that when somebody looks at it, they will very much limit the meaning of "the best interests of the child" to the six paragraphs that have been set out. Sometimes it can have broader application if we do not try to specify it and tie it down in six areas.”
“I assure Deputy Gannon that I am not saying I do not see any merit in the amendment. I do see merit in it. I have indicated to the Deputy that I am going to consider it and that I will most probably bring forward amendments in respect of it to emphasise the best interests of the child. I do not think it is without merit. The point I was making about the reference in the Constitution to "the best interests of the child" is that we can decide whether we want to define what the best interests of the child are - Deputies Gannon and Kelly have put it in their amendment - or we can leave it vague. By leaving it vague, it is probably broader.”
“Once that process comes to an end, we no longer have an obligation. It is not tenable for the State to provide endless accommodation after decisions have been made. It would be a recipe for quite significant trouble were that to arise. The Deputy asked me to intervene. I could fudge this with her and say something else but I will not intervene. I have to be consistent across the board. If somebody comes up to me here and asks me to intervene, I will be honest and say I will not do so. We have to have a rules-based system. Otherwise if I intervene on the basis of TDs contacting me and asking me to intervene, the system will become very unfair to the individuals concerned.”
“I do not know whether they have been refused status and been served with a deportation order. Alternatively, I do not know whether they have been granted status. One thing the Minister of State, Deputy Brophy, and I cannot do if people have been granted status is to get into the accommodation business of providing an ever-growing amount of accommodation for people who are not international protection applicants but who are beneficiaries of international protection. Deputy Coppinger may not want to assert it but she will know this something that is just not feasible. There has to be movement through the system of individuals who come in and apply for international protection. We have an obligation under the material conditions directive to provide them with that accommodation during their application process.”
“Deputy Gibney criticised me and asked where the compassion is in this. If I go down the route of moving away from a rules-based system and decide I will deal with individual requests on an individual basis, we will have a system that is very unfair in the generality of how it is applied. It will become arbitrary and nobody will know what the outcome will be. Those who can get a well-connected campaign up and running will know they are in a better position or people may think if they can mention a case in the Dáil, they will have a better chance of receiving a positive result. I do not know the situation in terms of the individuals Deputy Coppinger referred to. I do not know whether they have been refused status. I am not asking the Deputy to deal with the details of it now; if she wants to she can mention them to me.”
“I will give careful consideration to what is in these amendments and I may bring forward further amendments later to give effect to them. It is important, however, to note that the legislation already provides that the best interests of the child be the primary consideration. In respect of what Deputy Coppinger has raised, what makes immigration a really difficult thing to deal with, particularly if you are the person making the decisions - and everyone in here makes decisions when it comes to legislation - is that you are dealing with people's lives. Decisions that are made have consequential impacts on individuals. What I have tried to do - and feel free to criticise me, which I know the Deputy will - is that I have tried to get away from a situation whereby we have an arbitrary system. I have tried to have a rules-based system.”
“I will table amendments in respect of this matter. I cannot accept the amendments as they are at present, particularly amendments Nos. 10, 17, 20 and 206. Section 15 clearly provides for the safeguards required by the Eurodac regulation on the collection of biometric data from children. I do not propose to accept amendments Nos. 134 135, 154 and 192. Article 23 of the asylum and migration management regulation and Article 22 of the asylum procedures regulation set out that the best interests of the child shall be a primary consideration for the state and the competent authorities of the state with respect to all procedures provided for in those regulations. This is a legally binding obligation on the state. As such, it may not be necessary to include these amendments in the Bill.”
“In the next part of the proposed amendment from Deputies Gannon and Kelly they have decided they think it would be preferable to define what is the best interests of the child or how the best interests of the child should be determined, and they do so in six paragraphs setting out the views of the child, the age of the child, safety and developmental needs, preservation of family relationships, particular vulnerabilities and any other particular circumstances. There is a genuine debate to be had as to whether when we put a protection in legislation, it is benefited by seeking to provide a definition of that general protection. The term "the best interests of the child" is in Article 42A of our Constitution. The courts are required to ensure that decisions made are in the best interests of the child. I will consider it.”
“Section 29(1) states: "The best interests of the child shall be a primary consideration in the carrying out of procedures in respect of a minor under this Part." Colleagues may revert and state this is limited to that Part but I would look at it because I certainly want it to be the case that throughout the legislation the best interests of the child should be the primary consideration.”
“I thank Deputies Gannon and Kelly for the amendment. I will discuss all of the amendments grouped together. Amendment No. 10 tabled by Deputies Gannon and Kelly can be divided into two parts. The Deputies want to set out in the legislation that the best interests of the child shall be a primary consideration in all matters affecting a person who is minor. I have no difficulty with this provision being put into the legislation but I need to inform Members that it is in the Bill already. Section 29(1) contains a provision dealing with a guarantee for minors.”
“It is an improvement that the directive will be transposed through primary legislation for debate here, as opposed to by way of statutory instrument, which was an option.”
“We need to recognise that when it comes to the drafting of legislation, we do not set out the circumstances in which the Oireachtas believes something would be in the best interests of the child. We have to allow a certain level of discretion. Of course all of this will be subject to very careful judicial intervention. That is why the drafting of the Bill is so important. We need to recognise that the amendment we are dealing with relates to the definition section of the Bill. When we come to section 24, there are further amendments in respect of the express provision regarding the limited period of detention that is permissible. I take on board what Deputy Kelly has said about the reception conditions directive.”
“I thank colleagues for their contributions. The determination of whether something is in the best interests of a child is carried out every day of the week by judges. It is also a determination that is carried out in advance by Tusla or other agencies which find themselves having to go to court. There are unquestionably occasions where people have to determine what is in the best interests of the child. We are aware that this provision only applies in respect of the screening process. It is a very short period of time. There will unquestionably be circumstances, as in the first section, where a child has arrived into Ireland with an adult who is another applicant and that applicant is not available. There are circumstances in such cases where it would be in the best interests of the child to be detained for a short period of time.”
“The legal instrument transposing them will very much reflect what is in the reception conditions directive, of which everyone is aware and which is readily available for people to inspect.”
“The way we did that previously was to bring it in through a statutory instrument, which was secondary legislation the then Minister signed setting out that these are the reception conditions to which an applicant is entitled. The entitlements in terms of accommodation and work were set out. It is preferable that the reception conditions directive be transposed within the primary legislation rather than doing what was done previously by just signing a statutory instrument, which will not have the same level of appraisal or consideration by the Houses. I intend to bring forward amendments that will deal with the reception conditions directive. They will come back and we will be able to examine them.”
“People can very emotively say the Minister and the Government are bringing in rules for the detention of minors but Members should please emphasise as well that it can only happen in circumstances where it is believed that short detention of no longer than 12 hours is in the best interests of the minor. I will now deal with Deputy Kelly's amendment No. 8. Again, as has been indicated, this tries to put a definition into the section we are still dealing with that contains the definitions. The Deputy’s amendment refers to recital 33 and Article 10(2) of the reception conditions directive. As the Deputy and others will know, that is an extremely important directive that needs to be transposed into Irish law.”
“That is something that has not been emphasised here and it is an extremely important proviso. Also, as Deputy Gannon indicated earlier, section 24(13) states any such detention will be: (a) for the shortest possible period of time, and in any event for a maximum period of 12 hours, and [to answer Deputy O'Hara's question] (b) in a place prescribed by the Minister for that purpose (which shall not be a prison, children detention school or Garda Síochána station), under warrant of the arresting member or officer and in the custody of the person for the time being in charge of the place, or in a vehicle for the purposes of bringing the minor to that place. We need to be honest about the provision.”
“As such, there cannot be any detention unless there is a determination the detention is in the minor's best interest. Subsection 24(12) which follows provides similarly that: A member of An Garda Síochána or an immigration officer may, in exceptional circumstances and as a measure of last resort, arrest without warrant an applicant who is an unaccompanied minor and detain the unaccompanied minor in accordance with subsection (13) ... Again, the same three conditions must be met and I emphasise the third condition, which is that "it is assessed by the member or officer that the detention is in the minor’s best interests" and safeguards the unaccompanied minor. We need to recognise the only time this will happen is when there is an assessment it is in the best interests of the minor.”
“It states: A member of An Garda Síochána or an immigration officer may, in exceptional circumstances and as a measure of last resort, arrest without warrant and detain, in accordance with subsection (13) , a minor who is in the custody of an applicant (whether the applicant is a parent or a person acting in loco parentis or any other person) where the applicant is detained under this section and where— (a) it is necessary for the purposes of determining or verifying the identity or nationality of the minor, (b) the member or officer is satisfied that less coercive alternative measures cannot be applied effectively, and (c) [Something that is never mentioned here] it is assessed by the member or officer that the detention is in the minor’s best interests.”
“I want to deal with the issue of detention of unaccompanied minors which has been presented in very emotive way in the House. I need to be clear about the circumstances when it will apply because to listen in to this debate you would think the detention of unaccompanied minors could happen in a haphazard or capricious way but that is not the case. Let us look at what is provided for in section 24. It is contained in section 24(11) and I will read it out because it is extremely important.”
“I have to be careful with the legislation I am bringing forward in ensuring it does not overburden the Legal Aid Board. As I said, legal counselling will be provided. It will be based on the definition in Article 16 of the asylum procedures regulation, APR. It will not necessarily have to be legal advice. However, it will not preclude an applicant from applying for legal advice from the Legal Aid Board.”
“Individuals need to be aware that if the definition of "legal counselling" they want to include in the Bill is legal counselling that includes advice from a solicitor or barrister, that will place excessive burdens on the legal aid system in this country. It is not feasible. It is always open to an individual seeking international protection at first instance to apply to the Legal Aid Board, and that will continue. In 2024, there were 11,689 applications to the board in respect of international protection. That process will continue. To deal with the issue raised by Deputy Ward, the Legal Aid Board finds itself with what he referred to as a Hobson’s choice. It finds itself in the position where it has to choose who to grant legal aid to. It is a difficult choice.”
“I know it is set out as a very legal and litigious process when you look at the detail of the legislation but, ultimately, the most important aspect for any applicant for international protection is to be able to set out coherently and as comfortably as possible the basis upon which they say that they are entitled to international protection. That requires legal counselling from individuals who are expert in that type of work and process. That will be much more effective. The intention in the amendments, when they come forward, will be that they will be governed by the Legal Aid Board. I apologise but I do not have definitions here. I have provided as much coherence as possible. We have had a good debate on legal counselling.”
“It is very clear from that definition in Article 16 what legal counselling is. It is distinct from legal advice. We need to recognise that when people come in seeking international protection, they do not need the expertise of a very well-qualified senior solicitor. They need somebody who is expert in the area of applications for international protection. They need to be informed about the procedure and the importance of the narrative that is provided to the individual who is hearing their application at first instance. Those are the crucial factors in determining whether an individual is entitled to be granted asylum.”
“I have to ensure the definition of "legal counselling" that I put into this legislation does not result in those resources being devoted predominately to international protection. Deputy Kelly asked about the definition. I said earlier – I was very frank with the House about what I am proposing - that the APR definition will provide the basis of the definition of "legal counselling". As I said, the Deputy included it himself.”
“I will answer Deputy Ward while I have it in mind. That will be a matter for the Legal Aid Board. I will not specify in legislation that the board in providing legal counselling must do it individually. That would be an excessive reach in terms of a statute. It will be a matter for the Legal Aid Board to determine. Deputy Gannon referred to the hearings yesterday before the justice committee. I did not hear them but I read about them. He quoted a section from the Free Legal Advice Centres. I have to ensure what I do in this legislation will not completely overburden the Legal Aid Board with the requirements placed on it. There is a balancing act here. People say we need to devote more money to civil legal aid. I agree with that but I have a budget that I have to work with.”
“I want to ensure that the legal counselling that is being provided will be very adequate. I believe it will be adequate. It will reflect the definitions that are contained within Deputy Kelly's amendment, as is set out in the administrative procedure regulation. That is the information I have for Deputy Kelly. On Deputy Carthy's amendment specifically, I cannot accept it. It places too great an obligation on me to ensure that it is legal advice by practitioners being provided. I note the point that Deputy Carthy's amendment allows counselling to be provided by "a person employed by the Legal Aid Board who is authorised to provide legal advice or representation". I want to be more specific in what I am doing. I do not want to find myself being tied in by the definition that is set out there.”
“That included an increase of €8 million to take into account the extra obligations that are going to be placed on the Legal Aid Board as a result of the requirements under the new International Protection Bill. Further money has been required, therefore, but I also need to ensure that the pot of money that is available is not all used up for international protection. People may criticise me for saying that but I have to ensure it is not all used up for that. There are also significant pressures on the Legal Aid Board with the legitimate applications coming for legal advice and assistance from those seeking international protection. In 2024, some 28,000 applications were made to the Legal Aid Board. Of them, 11,600 or so were in respect of international protection. I have to be realistic.”
“It will be provided predominantly on an individual basis. It is not for me to dictate to the Legal Aid Board how it should manage its provision of legal counselling. It will be a matter for the Legal Aid Board. I am not going to specify in legislation how they should do it. It is not my intention or the intention of the legislation, and I do not envisage it happening, that AI or bots will be used, to answer Deputy Gannon's question. People may criticise me for this, but we also have to recognise that a limited amount of money is available to be given to the Legal Aid Board each year. In fairness, last year in the budget, I managed to get a sum in the region of €73 million for the Legal Aid Board.”
“I thank colleagues for their contributions. I assure all of them that we will be debating the definition of "legal counselling" that I bring forward. I intend to bring it forward in the Seanad. I would have preferred to bring it here on Report Stage. As I stated at the outset, there were time pressures in respect of this. I am being honest about that. I am just reflecting on the matter. The definition of "legal counselling" will reflect the definition in the asylum procedures regulation, APR. It will also take into account requirements set out in the asylum and migration management regulation, AMMR, and the asylum border procedure. My intention is that legal counselling will be provided through the Legal Aid Board. The likelihood is that it will be provided through paralegals hired by the Legal Aid Board. That is my intention at present.”
“This would place restrictions on who would be permitted to provide legal counselling, and this may in turn restrict the availability of the service. As I have said, I cannot and will not accept Deputy Carthy's amendment. My Department and the Legal Aid Board are currently analysing how to implement the provision of legal counselling to meet the requirements of the pact. My officials are also examining these matters in consultation with the OPC and the Attorney General. I will be bringing forward appropriate ministerial amendments relating to legal counselling.”
“Deputy Carthy's amendment would expand the scope of legal counselling to include the provision of legal advice. Legal advice is a separate concept to legal counselling. That will be apparent when the definition of "legal counselling" is introduced later. The introduction of legal counselling is not intended to replace an applicant's ability to access legal advice either through private means or through the Legal Aid Board. Legal counselling will be an additional service intended to provide support for an applicant at the very early stage of an application. I am also concerned that Deputy Carthy's amendment would mandate that legal counselling be provided only by a practicing solicitor or barrister.”