Jim O'Callaghan
Dublin Bay South · Fianna Fáil · Ireland
“This relates to section 69 of the Bill as passed by Dáil Éireann, which amends Schedule 5 to the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005 to add the Courts Service to the Schedule.”
“The first four amendments in this group are minor drafting corrections. They corrected the wording in four places so that the Bill reads consistently. It is changing the word "references" to "a reference". They make no change to the substance or effect of the Bill.”
“The ARP scheme was introduced in July 2022 to recognise the generosity of members of the public who opened their houses, whether in their entirety or through the provision of a room, at their own expense to provide shelter to people displaced by the Ukraine war. The Department of Social Protection administers the scheme on my behalf.”
“I have no doubt it will be challenged, and I have to be able to convince a court, if it is being challenged, that this legislation weighs up conflicting interests and recognises there is a mechanism for somebody who has reformed himself to get off the register.”
“The scheme has been a lifeline for people from Ukraine displaced by the conflict, given high rental market rates and scarcity of rental accommodation.”
“I thank the Leas-Cheann Comhairle in the first instance for presiding over these Stages of the legislation. I am very pleased that this legislation has been enacted. I want to thank a few people very briefly. I thank Deputy McAuliffe for introducing me to Jason Poole. I thank Senator O'Loughlin for her work on this issue in the Seanad.”
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“It is a recognition payment because of the delay in the State facing up to its duties in terms of determining the outcome of what occurred.”
“I agree with the Deputy. I think the inquest was beneficial and therapeutic for the survivors. I think they were satisfied with the process that the State belatedly put in place by way of the inquest, which was important. There is no attempt on the part of the Government to move away from the decision that was previously made. Phase 2 will occur; I just want to get the proposals right. I want to discuss it with others. All I can say to the Deputy is that it is something that will happen in the near future. I repeat that I do not want, and I know the Deputy does not want, for people who were injured in the Stardust to be put through some form of new litigious process that requires an adversarial or inquisitorial process. I want a much simpler scheme that is a recognition payment, not a compensation payment for their injuries.”
“I want a system whereby those who were injured can apply for what will be an agreed amount of recognition payment that the State will pay in respect of what happened and the delay in establishing the truth of what occurred in the Stardust. I will not put people through another tribunal or another compensation process. I do not want it to be litigious. I do not think lawyers need to be involved in it. When the proposal that I am putting forward comes, I think it will be a very simple one and will not require legal advice in order for the people to avail of the benefits of it.”
“I give the Deputy a commitment that I am going to bring proposals to the Government in the near future. I am finalising them within the Department. I want to get them right. Obviously I want to discuss them with the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste in advance of bringing them to the Government. That is something I will do in the next short period of time. I do not want to give the Deputy a date and then it is not satisfied. This is not a case of phase 2 being forgotten about; that is not the issue. However, one thing I do not want to happen is for phase 2 to turn into a litigious process that requires the presence of solicitors.”
“I want a simple scheme whereby the people who were in the fire on the night and were injured can receive a payment in recognition of the fact that this process has dragged on for so long. It will not be a recompensation payment for the injuries they suffered - that was already effected by the tribunal – but it is a payment in giving recognition for what has happened in recent years.”
“The next phase seeks to deal with the individuals who were in the fire and who were injured. We have some data on that because of the Stardust Victims Compensation Tribunal, which was established in 1985. We know the number of persons who went to that tribunal. It is in the region of 825. I am finalising proposals in the Department in respect of phase 2. In preparing proposals for my consideration and final approval, the guiding principles that informed phase 1 are just as important for phase 2. Given the passage of time, it is of the upmost importance that in developing an approach, we prevent further trauma for applicants and minimise any pain they may suffer from it. I do not want this to be a litigious process. I do not want it to place any extra burden on the individuals involved.”
“I am very conscious, and the Deputy will be very conscious, that we are approaching the 45th anniversary of the Stardust tragedy. It was an extraordinarily traumatic event for the people in the Deputy’s constituency. He was not alive at the time but it was an extraordinarily traumatic event. The previous Government did a very good job in seeking to resolve and to address the ongoing pain that had existed for 40 years. There was the State apology. In 2024, as the Deputy will be aware, the Government approved a two-phase approach to redress arrangements. Phase 1 has been completed. It was in respect of the individuals who died in the Stardust and there was an ex gratia redress scheme for the families of the 48 victims of the fire. That has concluded.”
“It is a broad collection of family members that come within the parameters of the definition. As the Deputy said, the legislation is going to be introduced. The family reunification issues will be considered on Committee Stage. I will keep an open mind in respect of it but I do think there will be changes, definitely. I will say that to the Deputy-----”
“I will go to the European Court of Human Rights. In its judgments it has consistently said that when it comes to family reunification, a member state is entitled to engage in a balancing act to ensure there is a fair balance between, on the one hand, the applicant's interest in being reunited with his family and, on the other, the interest of the community as a whole to control immigration with a view to protecting the economic well-being of the country, ensuring the effective integration of those granted protection and preserving social cohesion. That is a diktat that is used repeatedly by the European Court of Human Rights in challenges to family reunification. In regard to family reunification as well, I have a breakdown here of the figures on the make-up of the family relationships for the numbers coming in.”
“I have to be conscious of the fact that the numbers are rising very significantly and I think that has to guide the laws that Governments introduce.”
“When I was asked that question on RTÉ, it was in the very early part of January and I was asked what the number was for last year. I thought that was a reference to 2024 and as I said to the Deputy, in 2024 it was 979. That is what I was referring to. In 2025, it was 669. The Government is entitled to take into account the consequences and cost of family reunification for individuals who are coming here sponsored by refugees. I know it is a sensitive issue but it is hugely affected by the numbers of people in general seeking asylum in the country. Prior to Covid, as the Deputy will know, we had relatively small numbers seeking international protection. It was around 3,000 to 4,000 per year but in the years 2022 to 2025, inclusive, collectively we saw around 58,000 arrive seeking international protection.”
“When it comes to the assessment of the grant of family reunification, on the one hand we have to balance the rights of the individual refugee to seek family reunification but we also have to balance it with the rights and interests of the public with regard to the impact it may have on public well-being and the public purse. They are perfectly legitimate factors that have to be taken into account. It is necessarily the case that because somebody is coming through family reunification, the rules at present for refugees are that they do not have to show they are going to be able to support an individual they bring into the country as part of their family. My view, and that of the Government, is that the same or similar rules should apply for those who can bring in family under non-EEA.”
“There is also a third type of family reunification, which is in respect of people joining from EU countries who are permitted to be here to work. The Deputy's question, I suspect, arises in the context of the proposals that have been announced by Government to deal with new family reunification rules in the International Protection Bill 2026, which will be introduced in the Dáil tomorrow. What guides the Government and me in regard to proposals in respect of family reunification is that at present, family reunification can be secured for a refugee the day after they are granted refugee status.”
“I thank Deputy Gannon. I propose to take Questions Nos. 149 and 155 together. The answer for 2025 is 669. The answer for 2024 was 979. Deputy Gannon has asked me questions in respect of refugee status applications for family protection. As he will be aware, there is another type of family reunification that arises as well. That is for individuals who have not been granted refugee status but are individuals who are here working. That is referred to as non-EEA family reunification. That process is not a statutory scheme. It is an administrative scheme that is run by my Department. Recently, I updated the rules in respect of that family reunification process as well. On the numbers for non-EEA, I think they were in the region of 18,000 in 2024 or 2025 - one or the other.”
“On the refuge provision in Cavan-Monaghan, the capital assistance scheme stage 1 application for a refuge site in Monaghan was approved by the Department of housing last October. Work is ongoing towards submitting a stage 2 application, which will include further detail and costing for the full extent of works. The capital assistance scheme, CAS, process takes on average 75 weeks, with construction typically taking 15 to 18 months. Safe Ireland is the lead approved housing body on this development. Safe Ireland has expressed its commitment to explore other options of accommodation in the area of Monaghan but there is progress being made in the constituency.”
“I will deal with Deputy Ó Muirí’s point in the first instance. I was out at Aoibhneas in his constituency, which is also that of Deputy Brabazon. Obviously, there are good refuges there. The 12-week window is not a rule of Cuan. I have spoken to Cuan in respect of it. I have spoken to the service providers. They do not have a 12-week period during which you can stay for 12 weeks and you have to go afterwards. There is no strict rule in respect of that. In regard to the number issues raised by Deputy Bennett, when I am talking about refuges I am not saying they are not important. We also need to realise that barring orders are still an option that is available and we should be seeing more of them so that the perpetrator gets out.”
“In the first instance, the person who should be leaving the home is the abuser, the person who has inflicted violence. Regrettably, we are now getting into a situation where it is assumed the victim is the one who has to leave.”
“I am conscious of the Deputy's interest in refuges in Monaghan and Cavan. I was in Cavan–Monaghan recently. Progress is being made in respect of Monaghan and I had discussions with the local authority in Cavan. On safe accommodation spaces nationwide, including refuges and safe homes, the number stands at 232. I realise the Deputy wants to focus on numbers but the most important thing is to ensure as broad a range of refuges and safe homes as possible throughout the country. Considerable progress is being made in respect of this. I hope that by the end of this year, we will have increased the number of refuges and safe homes to 287. There is a tendency among policymakers – I am not suggesting the Deputy is among them – when considering refuges to assume they are the answer.”
“Both are important. While safe homes do not have the same level of protection and services as refuges, they remain extremely important in providing safe accommodation for women fleeing domestic violence.”
“A further nine units are being developed in Dublin and are expected to be operational early this year. A 12-unit refuge located in the Dún Laoghaire–Rathdown council area is scheduled to be completed and operational later this year. By the end of this year, we aim to increase the number of safe accommodation spaces, including refuges and safe homes, to 287. This will bring the total number of refuge units to 193 by the end of the year. Furthermore, Cuan is working towards having a minimum of 50 new refuge units under construction nationally across multiple sites in 2026. Last year, the number of safe home units increased by eight, bringing total safe home capacity to 60. Cuan is working to increase that capacity to 94 this year. Therefore, a considerable amount of work has been done in respect of refuges and safe homes.”
“I thank the Deputy for her question. Before giving the specifics, I will outline the method by which we organise refuge spaces and safe houses. It is through Cuan, collaborating with various stakeholders. The Deputy will be aware that Cuan collaborates with domestic violence services, approved housing bodies, the Department of housing and local authorities to facilitate local action and support service development and the delivery of safe accommodation and ancillary services. Currently, the number of safe accommodation spaces nationwide, including refuges and safe homes, stands at 232. I am informed by Cuan that, in 2025, the number of domestic violence refuge units increased by 13 – four in Louth and nine in Dublin – bringing the total to 172.”
“We do not want to go so far that that important constitutional right is compromised. It is about getting the balance right, but I agree with the Deputy that we need to speed up the process.”
“I cannot formulate a policy based on one case. However, the cases the Deputy gives to me and other cases that are reported on the system generally influence and guide policy in the area. Some cases will take time no matter what level of resources we have put into them. For example, historic sexual abuse cases are going to take time because the gardai have to go back and seek witnesses from many years ago so no matter what level of resources I put in and no matter how many judges are there to deal with cases on an expedited basis, some cases are going to take time. We all want to make sure the rights of victims are vindicated and protected and victims get justice. At the same time, as Minister for Justice, I have to ensure that the rights to a fair trial of people who are accused are similarly protected.”
“In order to achieve that, I am putting further resources into it. The number of judges on the Central Criminal Court has never been higher. We are going to create more posts for judges later this year. The more judges we have the more resources, and cases will be resolved and dealt with more quickly.”
“Last week, I commended Margaret Loftus. I do not know if it was to the Deputy but I certainly commended her in the House to a number of other Deputies. I commend her bravery and her perseverance. Ultimately, she did get the conviction she sought. A court held in her favour and recognised that she had been a victim of an assault and a judgment was delivered in that regard. The Deputy spoke about issues in respect of An Garda Síochána. I have to mention that Margaret Loftus commended Commissioner Justin Kelly on the role he played in the prosecution and how seriously it was taken when he got involved. I also understand that the husband in question was suspended from An Garda Síochána in 2018. The Garda, therefore, did respond to it. I want to ensure that the criminal justice system, whilst remaining fair, is sped up as much as possible.”
“The Deputy mentioned a particular case in the context of what is being done in the courts system. A lot is being done there. The Family Courts Act was enacted in 2024. I have a plan in place for the implementation of that policy so that family law courts will operate on a consistent and expert basis throughout the country. Obviously, domestic violence is a criminal offence. It is not something to be associated with family law, but we want greater speed in our family law system to facilitate all those individuals.”
“The Deputy asked what is being done. A number of legislative proposals are being brought forward, such as the sexual offences Bill, which was recently considered by the justice committee by way of pre-legislative scrutiny. I have introduced a proposal that would allow perpetrators of domestic violence to be included on a new register of domestic violence. A miscellaneous provisions Bill, which came before the Dáil last week, seeks to restrict the disclosure of counselling records in sexual offence trials. As is apparent from the sexual offences Bill, I am also seeking to reform the sexual consent laws, while the miscellaneous provisions Bill contains a provision seeking to criminalise the offering or advertising of rent in exchange for sex. I am also working on guardianship rights.”
“Combating domestic, sexual and gender-based violence is a priority for the Government and for me. If the Deputy looks at the recent budget allocation and the recent establishment of Cuan, he will see that the Government has made a very specific decision that it wants a separate statutory agency to deal with this issue. We are putting in funding of €80 million in respect to this issue, which shows an increased investment of €12 million year on year, which is a sign of the Government's financial commitment. Similarly, we have an implementation plan for the zero tolerance strategy. That is an appropriate name for the strategy we want to adopt in respect of domestic violence. Sometimes the term "zero tolerance" is used in a general sense. It is absolutely appropriate when it comes to combating domestic violence.”
“The reason I could not just let it go through is that I have to see what is happening in Europe on the matter. I also have to see whether this would infringe on trade in the area of legitimate purposes for nitrous oxide, whether that is in the catering area, dentistry or other legitimate purposes. If, having looked at what is happening in Europe, I think there is a necessity for regulation here, I will propose it.”
“I agree with the Deputy that there certainly needs to be a two-pronged approach. We need to warn people. Sometimes we look at the drugs issue very much in terms of what legislation can be introduced. However, it is really about warning people of the dangers associated with taking drugs. Everyone in this House has seen terrible outcomes from people taking drugs. They are referred to as recreational drugs but there is no recreation associated with them. They ruin young people's lives and the people who are distributing and selling these drugs really need to be dealt with severely because they are abusing our younger population and need to be dealt with very seriously. I will keep an open mind in respect of it. I commended Deputy Mark Ward last week on bringing forward the Private Members' Bill.”
“I am also pleased to tell the Deputy that between 2020 and November 2025, the Revenue Commissioners seized approximately 250,000 kg of nitrous oxide canisters, so there is a recognition that this is being imported for purposes other than legitimate purposes.”
“The Deputy can appreciate the difficulties that arise when we are dealing with something that is lawful, such as aerosol or spray deodorants. Obviously, we cannot ban them, but the Deputy is trying to put forward proposals that could facilitate their regulation. Even before we go down the avenue of starting to look at legislation, the most important thing we can do is to educate people and to warn young people about the dangers associated with nitrous oxide or the aerosol narrative that the Deputy just cited. It can have dire consequences on an individual's health. What nitrous oxide in fact does is cut off the oxygen supply to the brain. If people were aware of that and the neurological consequences of it, I do not think they would be engaging in the use of nitrous oxide to the extent they are now.”
“That arises in the context of the prospective regulation about what is a lawful substance for certain purposes. I will certainly be keeping it under consideration. I am also aware that the Commission has published a draft amendment to the regulations in order to place restrictions on the marketing of dinitrogen oxide, which is the technical name for it. I am not closing my mind to legislation but I have to go down these avenues before I make a final decision.”
“The Deputy will also be aware that section 74 of the Child Care Act 1991 provides for the offence of sale of certain substances, which includes the sale of substance to a child such as the type of substance we are talking about here. The Deputy is right about the Private Members' Bill introduced by Deputy Mark Ward last week. I welcome the fact that there has been a lot of public discussion in the intervening time, which is beneficial. In considering legislation, I have to look at what impact any legislation proposed or introduced would have on the EU technical regulations information system, which requires that legislation or proposed legislative changes that can interfere with the sale of legitimate products and legitimate trade be notified to the EU in advance.”
“I thank the Deputy for his question. Before I talk about legislation, I will repeat something he said there. Taking nitrous oxide is playing Russian roulette with your health. We know from what the HSE and the hospitals have said, there are many incidents of people suffering severe illnesses and damage to their health as a result of taking nitrous oxide. It can wreak severe neurological damage on an individual. It can damage your reproductive health and, really, you are playing Russian roulette if you take it. As regards legislation, as the Deputy will be aware, the Criminal Justice (Psychoactive Substances) Act 2010 criminalises the sale of nitrous oxide for human consumption. Nitrous oxide can also, however, be used for legitimate purposes. It is sometimes used by dentists and in the catering profession.”
“If it happened in the Dáil and translation or interpretation services were being provided, the individual would be aware that the communication was not being provided adequately. There are mechanisms for checking this-----”
“The public can have full confidence in this. What happens in practice is that the Courts Service enters a contract with translation providers, those being, companies that provide translation services. A fundamental requirement of that contract is that the contracted company must ensure interpreters possess the qualifications and competence appropriate to the tasks for which they are employed. The contract agreed under the central procurement framework sets the standards for interpreters supplied to the Courts Service. There are procedures in place to ensure the quality of the interpreters and translators being provided is adequate. In the unusual situation that does not happen, it can be, and generally is, readily apparent in a court room.”
“However, if there were further issues and ongoing issues with translation services I would expect to see a whole series of convictions being quashed or translators being set aside by the court, but that is not happening. This was a serious matter, but it was an isolated example and there are measures and protections in place to deal with poor quality in translation services.”
“Every day of the week there are a series of cases going on in the Central Criminal Court and in the circuit criminal court for which translation services are required. That is part of the consequence of having a multicultural society in which people from all backgrounds end up as witnesses or accused before the court. Any person who is accused of a criminal offence and who needs the services of a translator will have their own legal solicitor and counsel representing them. I suggest to the Deputy that it will become readily apparent if the translation services being provided are not adequate. What is surprising is that it took the Court of Appeal to intervene in this particular case.”
“It also sets out provisions in respect of the quality of interpretation. If the quality is not sufficient, obviously the court can direct that the interpreter be replaced. That is given practical effect in our courts by the Courts Service entering into a contract with an entity or entities that provide those translation services. I am satisfied that in the vast majority of cases the quality of the translation services provided is sufficient and professional. What was surprising in the particular case that was overturned on appeal is the fact the language in the court was French, rather than something more exotic. When accused people are before the courts they will have their own legal representation and if there is any issue in respect of the quality of translation services then, as the regulation, provides, they can be set aside.”
“I thank Deputy Carthy for his question. It is probably motivated by the "First Conviction" documentary that was on RTÉ in November of last year. It highlighted a conviction that was overturned by the Court of Appeal back in November 2021 on the grounds that court thought the interpretation services that were provided to the accused were unsatisfactory. I think the Court of Appeal judgment referred to very serious inaccuracies in the translation. The Deputy will be aware we have legislation in place to govern the quality of translation in our courts. It is set out in SI 565 of 2013 on interpretation and translation in criminal proceedings. It transposes EU Directive No. 64 of 2010. It says that a person who appears in a criminal court "shall have the right to the assistance, at no cost, of an interpreter as set out in these Regulations".”
“Every time we create a new offence, we simply state a fine for a summary conviction, or a term of imprisonment or fine if convicted on indictment. We are trying to give a broader range of options to the Judiciary so judges can take that into account when it comes to imposing a penalty on the individual. On the Committee Stage amendments, I would have preferred if I had been able to come here with the whole Bill together as opposed to saying some further provisions will be coming on Committee Stage. As Deputy Lahart said, I am conscious I am bringing forward these proposals because behind each individual proposal are people. Behind the counselling notes proposal, there are survivors of sexual abuse and there are victims elsewhere whom I am trying to help.”
“I will bring in further amendments on Committee Stage. I have to be honest with people and I do not want to mislead people. The Oireachtas cannot ban counselling notes without putting in place a real risk that a subsequent trial involving a complainant and a survivor or victim before the courts would be undermined because a successful legal challenge would be brought against it. Another issue raised was in respect of pepper spray. Pepper spray is for the purpose of protecting workers, for the protection of prison officers. I believe it will be seldom used. Community service orders should be introduced. We need to give more options to the Judiciary in respect of penalties that can be imposed upon those convicted of criminal offences. At present we do not. Actually, the fault lies with us in the Oireachtas.”
“In effect, I will give a stronger protection to counselling notes to ensure that it should be the exception that they be disclosed and they would only be disclosed if having looked at the counselling notes, a judge determines there is information in those that would be of real benefit to an accused as it could undermine the narrative of what has been said against him and it would be exculpatory for the purpose of the trial. That is the only way that this should ever have been used. I listened very carefully to what Deputy Butterly had to say in respect of a trial that had been spoken about earlier on. That should never have been brought in. That is not what the statutory provision that we introduced was introduced for. I ask colleagues to be considerate in terms of what we are trying to do.”
“Sometimes we hear people saying it might be constitutional or it may be unconstitutional. I regret to say that if we were to introduce a legislative provision which said there is a category of evidence that can never ever be used in a criminal trial, I think it is fairly clear the courts would say that is unconstitutional. There is nothing else where we say, "You can't have any access to that". Deputy Coppinger referred to the issue of privilege. On Committee Stage, I will seek to try to change the presumption so that there is a presumption for non-disclosure.”
“I want Deputies to take into consideration what would happen if I did that. If I put in a legislative provision that it should be impermissible to gain disclosure of counselling notes and defined counselling notes in a criminal prosecution, inevitably a person, who is accused of a criminal offence and who said that they had reason to believe there was material evidence within counselling notes, would bring a challenge to that legislation. They would say that legislation has been introduced by the Oireachtas which has made inaccessible to disclosure a category of evidence that has never previously been inaccessible. They would say that there was material within that category of evidence that if it was disclosed to a jury would be exculpatory of the accused.”
“Part of the reason they are being given out on an ad hoc basis is that the process that had been put in place by the Oireachtas back in 2017 where there would be a court hearing is now being waived. It is understandably being waived because victims want to get their trials on quickly. They know that if there is going to be a court hearing in respect of counselling notes, that will delay the process. Regrettably there may be delays as a result of the process I am proposing but it is an essential change in order to ensure that the system that exists at present does not continue. The call from the justice committee and from many Deputies here this afternoon is for the introduction of a ban on counselling notes. I cannot do that. I have to be honest with the people in the Gallery and with the public.”
“It is my responsibility to ensure that that changes and changes quickly. I was a Member of the Oireachtas back in 2017, as I believe Deputy Coppinger was as well. The intention of the Oireachtas at that stage was that the law would be changed so that the only type of material that would be provided to an accused in a sexual assault or rape trial would be material evidence which contained evidence that was exculpatory that was directly relevant to the individual concerned who was accused of the offence. The only basis for it was that it was assumed there may be information or evidence within a counselling note that is relevant to the innocence of the accused. That was the only reason this was introduced. Regrettably now what is happening is that counselling notes are being handed out on an ad hoc basis; that needs to change.”
“The predominant issue discussed here is what I am proposing in respect of the counselling notes. I have listened very carefully to what colleagues had to say and, of course, I have read the recommendations of the justice committee after its pre-legislative scrutiny. I will just say something that I think we all will agree on. People may find it difficult to identify that. I think we all agree that the current situation that operates as a result of the Criminal Evidence Act is unacceptable and needs to be changed. At present something is happening that was never the legislative intention of this House. What is happening is that counselling notes are being provided virtually on an ad hoc basis to the defence in criminal proceedings. That was never the intention of this House when the legislation was changed back in 2017.”
“The alternative is just not to try to do that. I put considerable pressure on the Department in respect of it. Let us consider, for example, the issue in respect of the disregard changes. I apologise that the provisions are not before Members today but they will be on Committee Stage. If I was to wait for separate legislation to come along and to be prepared in respect of disregard provisions for those who are convicted of historical same-sex offences, I would be waiting a considerable period of time and, being frank, it would take years for it to be effected, whereas by putting pressure on people to get it into the miscellaneous provisions Bill, I can get it done on a much speedier basis. I want to make that general point on the benefit of a miscellaneous provisions Bill.”