Jim O'Callaghan
Dublin Bay South · Fianna Fáil · Ireland
“This relates to section 69 of the Bill as passed by Dáil Éireann, which amends Schedule 5 to the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005 to add the Courts Service to the Schedule.”
“The first four amendments in this group are minor drafting corrections. They corrected the wording in four places so that the Bill reads consistently. It is changing the word "references" to "a reference". They make no change to the substance or effect of the Bill.”
“The ARP scheme was introduced in July 2022 to recognise the generosity of members of the public who opened their houses, whether in their entirety or through the provision of a room, at their own expense to provide shelter to people displaced by the Ukraine war. The Department of Social Protection administers the scheme on my behalf.”
“I have no doubt it will be challenged, and I have to be able to convince a court, if it is being challenged, that this legislation weighs up conflicting interests and recognises there is a mechanism for somebody who has reformed himself to get off the register.”
“The scheme has been a lifeline for people from Ukraine displaced by the conflict, given high rental market rates and scarcity of rental accommodation.”
“I thank the Leas-Cheann Comhairle in the first instance for presiding over these Stages of the legislation. I am very pleased that this legislation has been enacted. I want to thank a few people very briefly. I thank Deputy McAuliffe for introducing me to Jason Poole. I thank Senator O'Loughlin for her work on this issue in the Seanad.”
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“When Deputy Cairns is criticising this Government, she should just recall the fact that the reason we are in such a sound financial state is decisions made by previous Governments, and they deserve credit for them. We decided we would try to adopt an open economy that would attract in outside investment and have the effect of creating large surpluses that we could spend for the benefit of our citizens. I agree with some of the Deputy's criticism regarding what the Comptroller and Auditor General identified in his report. I previously replied to Deputy McDonald in respect of the chapter on IPAS. Deputy Cairns identified another chapter in the report relating to wholly unnecessary expenditure by An Garda Síochána in respect of rooms for the Europa League final last year that subsequently were not used.”
“I have not noticed any elbows out at Cabinet when it comes to budget negotiations. In fairness to Ministers, their objective is to try to ensure they can get sufficient resources to fund their Department for the year ahead. In my area of justice, it is something I am seeking to do but I also have to be conscious and responsible that we need to keep restraint on public spending. Notwithstanding that, we find ourselves in a unique position in this country whereby we have a very large surplus. We are not in the position that other countries find themselves, whereby they do not have a surplus. Many countries cannot agree spending in any specific area. It is also important to point out that this did not happen by accident. The surplus we have arises as a result of political decisions that were made by Governments of the past.”
“Of course it does not but notwithstanding that, if we manage to put ourselves in a situation where we are not making the information available it cannot then subsequently be sold on. This is a recommendation I make. It is certainly inappropriate for it to be sold on and I know the DPC is looking at it. Further engagement will take place in respect of it.”
“I do not want to put the focus on that country or the entity. In terms of the issues that arise, one of the difficulties is that many of us have granted permission to use apps to gain certain services on our mobile phones, for instance weather apps, location apps or maps. This can have the impact that we are giving information out about our location. I am not suggesting all responsibility should rest on the individual but certainly since that programme aired, I have turned off any of the location apps on my phone and I recommend to other Deputies that they do the same. We can turn them on when we need to use them or when we need to use a map.”
“I am satisfied that the investigation that has commenced is ongoing and we will get to the bottom of who these data brokers are. Personal data is very clear when we identify it. It is unquestionably the case that the movements of an individual - whether he or she is a TD or not is irrelevant - being sold on the market for the purpose of commercial enterprise or more nefarious activity is unacceptable.”
“It is important to point out that the Data Protection Commissioner has very considerable powers under the data protection legislation that this House has enacted. Under those powers, they are responsible to protect the personal data of individuals in this country. If one looks at what was revealed in the “Prime Time” programme, what was most concerning was that individuals' movements could be so readily identified and also sold on. We do not want to find ourselves in a situation where that type of personal data as to where a person is going on a daily basis is available for sale on the commercial market. On what the commission is continuing to do, it is, as the Deputy knows, fully independent in the exercise of its functions but it does engage with officials in my Department.”
“My information is that the DPC has used the statutory powers it has already to investigate this matter. As a result of its investigations, it has been able to identify that one of the two entities identified in the “Prime Time” programme is based in Ireland. I understand the DPC has visited its offices for the purposes of continuing its investigation. I am also aware that the other entity that was identified in the programme that is selling what is personal data is based not in Ireland but in another EU country. I am informed by the DPC that it has contacted the equivalent of the DPC in that country and notified it of it. The Deputy asked why I did not do anything sooner. Just because I did not announce it does not mean I am not doing something. I have given her an indication of what has been done in the two weeks since the programme.”
“I thank the Deputy for her question. I did see the “Prime Time” programme two weeks ago and I thought it was very concerning. It was an issue of considerable concern to me, not that fact that I or, indeed, other politicians were identified in it, but the potential that was there for brokers, of whom we were unaware, to sell on the market details about an individual’s movements. Obviously, from a security point of view, that could be an extremely serious matter if it was the case that individuals could identify the movement of individuals such as gardaí or prison officers. I am extremely concerned about it. In the aftermath of the programme, I met with officials in my Department and asked them to engage with the DPC which, as the Deputy correctly pointed out, has statutory responsibility for this area.”
“I will certainly ensure there are efficiencies in the system. I am achieving efficiencies in the system. I want to get more State accommodation purchased but we need to recognise that when the contracts are coming up for negotiation, I and my Department will ensure that we get the best deal possible for the State.”
“-----that in respect of each recommendation, the response of the Department of justice is agreed. We agree with the findings set out in the Comptroller and Auditor General’s report. What we need to do, however, is to try to ensure that we can reduce the cost on the State. We have a new rate card in place which will ensure we pay lesser amounts for the accommodation. The new average is €71 per person per night. That is significantly down on what it was previously. However, we need to recognise what is the driver of it is the number of people seeking accommodation.”
“All of the contracts are being reviewed as they are come up for expiration. That is why I have managed to bring about a situation where we have achieved savings of over €50 million this year as a result of renegotiating 100 contracts. The Deputy asked whether or not I accept the recommendations of the Comptroller and Auditor General. It is apparent from the report and if the Deputy read it she could see-----”
“I have no doubt the pressures on the Government at the time resulted in contracts being entered into that we would not enter into now.”
“However, to ensure we can reduce our expenditure in this area, I am seeking to move from commercial enterprise provision to State enterprise provision. I had a good engagement with the Deputy's colleague, Deputy Carthy's committee on the subject of IPAS. The reason I want to move to State provided accommodation is that at present it costs €30,000 per annum to accommodate an asylum seeker in private accommodation, whereas it costs €12,000 per annum in State accommodation. That is why this year I have been able to increase the number of State units from 900 last year to 4,000 this year. The objective of the Government is to get to 14,000 accommodation units by 2028. Steps are being taken. However, I have sympathy for Deputy O'Gorman who was the Minister when the surge happened and had to provide accommodation.”
“This year, I renegotiated over 100 contracts. I have been informed that the saving to the State resulting from those renegotiations is in the region of over €50 million. I have also terminated 12 contracts for a variety of reasons, including inadequate services being provided and inadequate quality. We need to recognise, in respect of the VAT issue, which was brought to my attention by the Department, that the overpayment of VAT was brought to the attention of the Department and Revenue by the provider. It indicated that there had been an overpayment because of charges being imposed on accommodation that is not VATable, while food is VATable. My understanding is that the money has been reconciled and repaid and that no further moneys are outstanding.”
“In 2022, 2023 and 2024, a total of 25,000 people came to Ireland and applied for international protection. That was significantly in excess of the numbers in the years prior to the Covid-19 pandemic. We also have to take into account that, as well as dealing with those people, we had to provide accommodation for 114,000 Ukrainians who had arrived. The effect of the arrivals and the increase in the accommodation requirements was that we went from a situation in 2019 when the State had 78 centres to a situation in 2024 that it had 324 centres. The Deputy correctly identified that issues raised by the Comptroller and Auditor General were precontract due diligence, precontract compliance and the VAT issue. I want her to know, however, that I have taken steps to ensure we are getting better value for money.”
“I thank the Deputy for her question. I welcome that yesterday the Comptroller and Auditor General's published his report for 2024. One of the items in it, as she identified, was a chapter on the management of IPAS contracts. That report is helpful because it sets out, what no doubt the Deputy believes as well as I believe, how spending on IPAS has increased significantly in recent years. In 2019, we spent €129 million on IPAS accommodation. Last year, we spent €1 billion. As the report indicates, however, the real driver of expenditure in this area is the number of residents in the system. In 2019, 7,683 residents were accommodated by IPAS. Last year, there were 32,700 and the real driver of the number of residents coming into the system is, being frank, the number of people applying for international protection.”
“I know the Deputy did not ask that. What the Deputy wanted to know was the basis upon which we try to categorise a price. Location is one consideration. The size of the entity and the services in the surrounding area are others. There is greater consistency coming in.”
“Later on this year or early next year, I hope to be able to say that we have rolled out youth diversion programmes in every part of the country. They do outstanding work. They do not get enough credit. It is the same case with the Probation Service. The Probation Service is an entity within my Department that does superb work. I think I have answered Deputy Kelly's question about the purchase of other accommodation. He also raised the issue of the rate card. I am not going to publish the rate card because I think it would be to the financial disadvantage of the State.”
“Regarding the criminal injuries compensation tribunal, Deputy Carthy correctly pointed out the significance of the Blanco judgment. The reason that man got such a small award of €645 from the CICT is that the compensation tribunal does not compensate people for pain and suffering. All one will get from the CICT is compensation for material financial loss. It is very limited in what it provides for. One of the cases being considered at present is whether there is an obligation on the State to provide compensation for pain and suffering. It potentially could increase the liability of the State hugely. Obviously, that has to be taken into account. I listened carefully to Deputy Gannon, who spoke about youth diversion. We have excellent youth diversion programmes in this country.”
“The cost of accommodating him or her in State-owned accommodation is €12,000 per year. There is a clear saving in providing State accommodation as opposed to providing accommodation in the private sector. I note what Deputy Carthy said about criminal legal aid and civil legal aid. I am in negotiations with the Minister for Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation with respect to trying to get further increases in the criminal legal aid sphere. There has been a well-motivated campaign on this issue, seeking full restoration of criminal legal aid fees. I am also conscious, however, of the limitations of the civil legal aid system that operates. I got the report and the minority report from Mr. Justice Frank Clarke and his committee. I cannot give any commitments in respect of it.”
“That is the case, but regrettably, because we do not have State-owned accommodation, we have to pay people to provide this accommodation. My objective is to try to ensure that we reduce the amount of money we are spending on it. That is why we proceeded with the purchase of Citywest. To answer Deputy Kelly's question directly, the State intends to make other purchases similar to the purchase of Citywest. I am conscious that we probably will not get a facility of equal size to Citywest. However, it is necessary that we purchase more sites so that I can achieve the policy objective, which is that, by 2028, we will have 14,000 State-owned accommodation units for those seeking asylum. I want to get there because, as I said yesterday, the cost of accommodating an asylum applicant in private accommodation at present is €30,000 per year.”
“I would love to have that money available to deal with other issues that have been identified by Deputy Carthy, such as criminal legal aid, civil legal aid and the criminal injuries compensation tribunal, CICT. In terms of the objective and as I said yesterday, the real driver of the cost of IPAS is the number of people within the system and the length of time they stay therein. I gave the statistics yesterday as to the number of people claiming asylum in Ireland, both prior to and during Covid-19. In the three years since then, from 2022 to 2024, we saw 45,000 people arrive and claim asylum. Our accommodation provision in IPAS went from 7,000 to 33,000 people who we are accommodating at present. I note what Deputy Carthy said about people making a lot of money out of this.”
“I thank the three Deputies for their useful contributions. Obviously, they were all present for the justice committee meeting yesterday where we covered much of the ground in respect of international protection accommodation services. Deputy Carthy started with reference to the issue of IPAS. All of us here - Deputies Gannon, Kelly and Carthy and myself - agree that far too much money is being spent on accommodation for international protection applicants. My policy objective is to try to drive down the amount of money we are spending on it. It is not sustainable in the long run when we consider that, this year, we are going to spend €1.2 billion on IPAS.”
“From an accounting perspective, this increases the gross ceiling by €10 million but does not impact the net level. As a result of the motion before us and as a consequence of the changes outlined, Vote 24 will have a budget allocation for 2025 of €2,724,546,000. I commend the motion to the House and ask it to approve the necessary financial arrangements that I have outlined.”
“The payback period on the purchase price is approximately four years due to the reduced running costs of a State-owned facility. The facility will also act as a cornerstone to the State's implementation of the migration pact in 2026, acting as a screening centre and border procedure location, as required under the new EU pact. I will now turn to the criminal legal aid scheme and criminal injuries compensation scheme, in respect of which there are further allocations. I am taking this opportunity to provide additional funding for the criminal legal aid scheme of €8 million, and €2 million for the Criminal Injuries Compensation Tribunal. This is being funded from appropriations-in-aid, which are increasing by €10 million arising from immigration registration fees.”
“This represents the first significant move in support of the Government’s policy to reduce reliance on the private sector and increase the capacity of State-owned sites. The full purchase price, including VAT, was €148.25 million and represents good value for the State. A sum of €113.25 million is the net funding requirement for the Vote, taking into account the limited existing capital allocation. The purchase of the property provided a unique opportunity to deliver a high-capacity State-owned accommodation centre in a strategic location within an accelerated timeline. The purchase will significantly reduce the current expenditure on State accommodation at this site and will mean that we will save more than €1 billion over a 25-year period. It will increase the value for public moneys now and for the future.”
“The allocation for the Property Services Regulatory Authority and the Property Services Appeals Board is transferring to the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. The gross allocation is €4.25 million with appropriations-in-aid resulting from fee income for licensing active of €2.4 million. Again, these functions are aligned with the overall role and function of the Department of housing. I will now proceed to deal with the capital funding for the purchase of the Citywest accommodation. This Estimate also makes substantial provision for additional capital funding in respect of international protection accommodation. I am pleased that €113.25 million is being provided in line with the decision of Government to purchase Citywest, a large former hotel complex and site in the outer Dublin region.”
“The original Revised Estimate for my Department was approved on 1 April in advance of the commencement of the Policing, Security and Community Safety Act 2024, and the establishment of two new Votes for the Policing and Community Safety Authority and Fiosrú under the justice Vote group. Therefore, I am seeking the approval of the House for this Further Revised Estimate for the justice Vote for 2025. With regard to the transfer of functions, the allocation for IFCO, previously the Film Censor’s Office, is transferring to the Department of Culture, Communications and Sport. The gross allocation is €832,000 and appropriations-in-aid are €840,000. I believe the House will agree that the activities of that office align well with the Department of culture.”
“The Bills is necessary because, as the Leas-Cheann Comhairle will be aware, under the Mulcreevy principle, I cannot use secondary legislation to amend primary legislation. Primary legislation will therefore be necessary for the final transfer functions. Deputies will recall that the House has previously approved Further Revised Estimates to take account of these transfers. The most recent of these was in June relating to the transfer of the National Cyber Security Centre and responsibility for cybersecurity policy, transferring from the Department of Environment, Climate and Communications to my Department. Prior to that, a Further Revised Estimate introduced on 1 May 2025 involved in the region of 330 staff and 150 contractors, and a budget allocation of over €2 billion, moving from the Department of children's Vote.”
“As Deputies will be aware, the programme for Government contains a commitment regarding the transfer of certain functions between Departments. On 1 August, following approval by the Government, responsibility for the Irish Film Classification Office, IFCO, was transferred to the Department of Culture, Communications and Sport and responsibility for the Property Services Regulatory Authority and the Property Services Appeals Board was transferred to the Department of Housing, Local Government and Housing. This is not quite the final element, but it is nearly the final element, of the transfer of function in the programme for Government for my Department. There will be one other minor transfer that will be effected pursuant to the criminal law and civil law (miscellaneous provisions) Bill 2025, which will hopefully be introduced this term.”
“A sum not exceeding €2,841,123 gross will be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31 December 2025 for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Justice, Home Affairs and Migration and of certain other services including payments administered by that Office, and payment of certain grants. The Estimate also makes provision for additional capital funding in respect of the international protection accommodation services, IPAS, and reflects the use of additional appropriations-in-aid to make payments under the criminal legal aid scheme and to victims of crime who have received awards from the Criminal Injuries Compensation Tribunal. This technical adjustment increases the gross ceiling by €10 million but does not impact the net level.”
“I move the following Further Revised Estimate: Vote 24 - Justice, Home Affairs and Migration (Third Further Revised Estimate) That a sum not exceeding €2,724,546,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 2025, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Justice, Home Affairs and Migration, Probation Service staff and of certain other services including payments under cash limited schemes administered by that Office, and payment of certain grants. I have formally moved the motion, but I just want to recite exactly what is involved.”
“I thank the Deputy for raising the issue of childcare facilities in Kildare. If a premises is left vacant for a lengthy period, it is, in the first instance, an issue for the local authority in Kildare to assess what can be done. The Government has invested a considerable amount of money to fund childcare. I am conscious that one of the issues is trying to identify appropriate properties for the provision of childcare facilities. I will certainly speak to the relevant Minister, Deputy Foley, in respect of it and on whether anything is available for Kildare. However, the local authority also has a big role to play in respect of it.”
“I ask the Deputy to bring forward legislation and it can be considered. I must point out that it will require a constitutional amendment. My view is that when you look at the provisions contained within the Constitution, they are probably correct. Twenty Members of the Oireachtas and-or four local authorities are required. Much consideration went into drafting that. If the Deputy wants to change that, he must bring forward a Bill proposing how the Constitution should be amended. I would be cautious as to whether or not the Irish public would support it.”
“The Deputy says there are only three candidates for the Presidency of Ireland when there are 5.5 million people here. In the United States of America, which has a population of approximately 400 million, there are only two candidates.”
“We are leading by example in the European Union, and other countries are following our example by recognising the State of Palestine. We are leading by example in ensuring that the issue of the EU-Israel trade agreement is coming under consideration. People are coming around to the Irish point of view. We are doing a lot.”
“I thank the Deputy for informing and educating me about the success of the Wade family in kickboxing. As the Deputy knows, Sport Ireland is the entity that allocates funding directly to the relevant national governing bodies. I am concerned to hear that they received no funding whatsoever. This is an issue that I will raise with my colleague the Minister for sport. The way we decide how funding should be allocated is on the basis that Sport Ireland has the significant say in the distribution of funding. I thank the Deputy for bringing the matter to my attention. I will raise the matter with the Minister for sport.”
“I thank the Deputy for raising this important issue. I know he featured in the programme. I had a walk-on part as well. The Data Protection Commission is treating this matter seriously and is investigating it. The officials in my Department are engaging with the commission, which is required by law to ensure that it investigates matters such as this if it believes what is involved infringes upon the data rights of individuals. Part of the problem, as the Deputy identified, is that there is not sufficient awareness on the part of individuals that when they link to certain apps, they are providing ongoing information in respect of their movements. I want the Data Protection Commission to investigate the issue and I want a report from it in respect of what it identifies. I share the Deputy's concern.”
“I thank the Deputy. I agree that housing aid and housing adaption grants are vital. They are hugely important and the Government is supporting them. I do not have the details required to reply to the Deputy's question, and I apologise for that. However, I will engage with the Minister, Deputy Browne, try to get the information and come back to the Deputy.”
“In fairness, the Deputy asked a straightforward question. I do not have that information. I will ask the Minister for Health to give me the specific information in respect of it. However, there was an announcement today that it is the Minister's intention to fully integrate CHI into the HSE, which is a positive development. There has been a number of reviews recently focused on the paediatric services in CHI. The Nayagam review is also under way-----”
“I have to be aware of the limits of Irish influence and Irish powers. We are not a strong military power. I cannot direct marines or members of the Irish Rangers to rescue people on that ship. We are not in that type of business. When it comes to what action are we going to take, the Deputy knows as well as I do that the only action we can take is through the power of our influence, by condemning this behaviour and by trying to bring to the attention of the international community the totally unacceptable behaviour of the Israeli Government. We have been quite effective in doing that. However, that is all we can do. We are not a military power. We do not get involved in military engagements with other countries.”
“I have been given a note in respect to that matter. I am very concerned that people have taken the extreme step of going on hunger strike. Like the Deputy, I urge them to reflect upon the potential damage they are doing to themselves by engaging in this. I will certainly speak to the relevant Ministers for the purpose of seeing whether a resolution can be obtained. From what Deputy Cahill says, the demands are relatively limited. However, there is an opportunity for people to discuss this and to seek to get agreement and resolution without the extreme action that is being taken at present.”
“I thank the Deputy for the question. I agree with him that family resource centres do outstanding work. I have them in my own constituency. I would say every Member of this House is aware of the excellent work they do. I am informed that the Minister, Deputy Foley, has announced the opening of five new family resource centres this year. There are many applications for funding in respect of the resource centres throughout the country. I will speak to the Minister, Deputy Foley, in respect of the issue the Deputy raised in his constituency. I do not have a detailed response at present but I will try to come back to the Deputy on that. I can understand his desire to ensure the family resource centre, which has a board and a building, continues and that it needs money.”
“I thank Deputy Ward. I was not aware there was a closure of the ISPCA centre in Donegal. It is obviously a concern for people and for the animals of Donegal. I will speak to the Minister, Deputy Heydon. I do not have an answer for the Deputy. I do not where it is proposed that the closest centre will be for people in Donegal. I hope there will be one in Donegal or the surrounding counties. I will come back to the Deputy in respect of that having spoken to the Minister, Deputy Heydon.”
“There are parts of Dublin city that can be unsafe, particularly for somebody who has been attacked, but predominantly it is a safe city. Look at the crime statistics; they are down. Look at the knife statistics; they are down. The Garda is doing a good job and the Deputy should get behind his city rather than denigrating it.”
“There are always going to be circumstances where there are criminal acts. It is a city and county that has 1.2 million people in it. As Minister for justice, I cannot come to the Deputy and say there will be no criminal activity in Dublin. It is a large international capital city. What we have to do as Deputies representing the city centre is be more positive about it. There are obviously aspects-----”
“No. I thank the Deputy for the question. Like him, I am a Deputy for Dublin city centre. It is a great city. I am concerned about a narrative that keeps stating that it is a dangerous place to go into.”
“Government policy on any health issue has to be guided by science. It cannot be guided by politics. I recall 20 years ago there was a theory put out that there was a link between autism and the MMR vaccine. It got a lot of traction in very respectable organs. Ultimately, it was completely disproven. The Irish Government will certainly not be taking any stances in respect of causes of diseases without any proof in place to indicate what the source of them is. Science has to dictate this, not political convenience.”
“Officials from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade are closely monitoring the situation and will provide whatever assistance that Senator Andrews, Deputy Heneghan or anyone else on the boat requires. That is the current situation but obviously it is a concern that the Government will keep a close eye on.”
“I am pleased to hear the Deputy spoke to Senator Andrews. It is obviously a very traumatic event for him and all other persons who are on the flotilla. As I said in my earlier comments, this is a reflection of the contempt Israel has for people who are non-combatants, whether they are in Gaza or on international waters. Having engaged with the Tánaiste's Department this morning I am aware that the Tánaiste and the Taoiseach are very concerned about the overnight attacks on the flotilla and reiterate that no unlawful or violent acts should be taken against the flotilla. I would urge Israel to respect international law and international humanitarian law.”