Jim O'Callaghan
Dublin Bay South · Fianna Fáil · Ireland
“This relates to section 69 of the Bill as passed by Dáil Éireann, which amends Schedule 5 to the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005 to add the Courts Service to the Schedule.”
“The first four amendments in this group are minor drafting corrections. They corrected the wording in four places so that the Bill reads consistently. It is changing the word "references" to "a reference". They make no change to the substance or effect of the Bill.”
“The ARP scheme was introduced in July 2022 to recognise the generosity of members of the public who opened their houses, whether in their entirety or through the provision of a room, at their own expense to provide shelter to people displaced by the Ukraine war. The Department of Social Protection administers the scheme on my behalf.”
“I have no doubt it will be challenged, and I have to be able to convince a court, if it is being challenged, that this legislation weighs up conflicting interests and recognises there is a mechanism for somebody who has reformed himself to get off the register.”
“The scheme has been a lifeline for people from Ukraine displaced by the conflict, given high rental market rates and scarcity of rental accommodation.”
“I thank the Leas-Cheann Comhairle in the first instance for presiding over these Stages of the legislation. I am very pleased that this legislation has been enacted. I want to thank a few people very briefly. I thank Deputy McAuliffe for introducing me to Jason Poole. I thank Senator O'Loughlin for her work on this issue in the Seanad.”
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“In terms of the reasons for resignations, I will go back and have a look at some of the post-resignation or departure interviews but most of them, from my recollection, were standard reasons. As I said to Deputy Gannon, many of them were because gardaí got different offers in the private sector. Obviously, terms and conditions are important. What I cannot do, however, because I would be thrown out of Government if I did, is start agreeing separate terms with An Garda Síochána outside of the public service pay agreements that apply.”
“I am obviously very accountable to the House, as I should be. Any information that my Department can provide will be provided. I will look into the issue the Deputy raises about getting further information from An Garda Síochána. Sometimes that just takes a bit of time but I have no difficulty with being accountable in this House for what gardaí do. There is nothing we can do about retirements although we did manage to change the age from 60 to 62. Sometimes I grant extensions to 63 or 64. In fact, invariably if I am asked, I will extend a garda's term of service because we want to keep people in the force. I have the say that the explanations that are provided indicate to me that we should be keeping people within the force because of the expertise they have. Resignations are a different matter. We are always going to have resignations.”
“We live in a society where many jobs are very sedentary in nature. Being a garda is an exciting, active job. I encourage people to consider it.”
“That is a valid point. There was some feedback from departure interviews as to why gardaí were leaving. My recollection is that 47% or 48% just got a better offer in the private sector. Regarding the Commissioner's figure of 18,000, we need to take into account that there are many civilians working within An Garda Síochána. They are not gardaí but they do work that was done by members of the force previously. We have approximately 3,500 civilians within the force at present and approximately 14,200 gardaí. Collectively, along with reserves numbering around 300, we will get up to 18,000. It is a demanding challenge to get more people to join. All I can do, and all Members can do, is try to encourage people to join. It is a very fulfilling and exiting job. It is different to most jobs that people get to do.”
“At present, I am trying encourage people to leave other careers and join An Garda Síochána, so we must recognise that it may work the other way as well.”
“Unfortunately, and this is a compliment to An Garda Síochána, gardaí are highly employable individuals. People want to hire members of An Garda Síochána because they come with great discipline and training and are very employable in the private sector. That is why it is very important that I try to ensure the terms and conditions of offer within the public sector are as good and as attractive as possible. Resignations are not as big an issue as I thought previously, but it is something that we need to keep a close eye on. The United States, New Zealand and Canada have all reported an increase in resignations from their police forces that are in excess of the rates that have been seen in An Garda Síochána. We need to get the recruitment numbers up because we are always going to have people who decide they want to try a different career.”
“I had a look at the statistics on the number of gardaí leaving the force. This year and last year, we are talking about between 1% and 2% leaving. Based on the calculations we have seen to the end of March, we are probably looking at somewhere in the region of 140 gardaí resigning from the force this year and with around 14,000 on the force. That is around 1%, which is extremely low. If one looks at the corresponding figures in the UK, we see that approximately 10% resign from the police force there. I do not want to lose any gardaí, especially when, as is currently the case, numbers are tight. We want to get numbers up to 15,000, so we cannot be in a position where gardaí are resigning. We need to ensure that we try to retain as many of them as possible.”
“On the lack of capacity, each year, there can be four or five intakes into Templemore. It can take more than 200, probably up to 225 or so per intake. If there are five intakes a year, we will hit 1,000 a year if we get the stream of individuals coming through. The Deputy is right that capacity is tight. At present, the problem is not capacity in Templemore. The number coming through can be accommodated and we need to increase it. If Templemore is not able to accommodate the number coming through, my Department is looking at other training locations. Templemore will always be the primary training location for An Garda Síochána. In the short term, it will probably be the only one but if extra capacity is required elsewhere, the Department and I are open to considering it.”
“Commissioners live in the real world. They know what the Irish public wants as expressed through their representatives. It is clear from the Deputy that he wants to see more gardaí on the streets in Cork.”
“It is commendable that every Deputy in this House wants to see more gardaí in their constituency. I agree that there has been a noticeable increase in the visibility of gardaí in Dublin city in recent months. It has been commented upon. It has had a positive impact because individuals feel a greater sense of security and safety when they see members of An Garda Síochána in the vicinity. I am committed to ensuring increased visibility not just in Dublin but also in other cities and towns. I am aware of the issue in Cork. We need more gardaí on the streets in Cork. I assure the Deputy I will seek to achieve that. When it comes to determining where gardaí go after they have been attested in Templemore, it is an operational decision by the Commissioner. It would be inappropriate for me to start directing him as to where they go.”
“Three more groups will enter this year in June, August, and November. Work is ongoing by An Garda Síochána and publicjobs.ie in progressing offers to candidates for the June intake. Also in March was the first attestation where approximately 150 gardaí were attested. I appreciate we need more attested and on the streets.”
“I was pleased with the outcome, which resulted in expressions of interest from 6,700 individuals. I have also received assurances from the Garda Commissioner that a further competition will be held later this year to maintain the strong pipeline of recruits An Garda Síochána is currently managing. It is important that we capture the 6,700 who expressed interest previously and those who express interest again subsequently this year and get them through the process quickly. Part of how we are seeking to achieve that is speeding up the vetting and interview processes. We are trying to get more gardaí recruited as quickly as possible. I was also very pleased that in March this year, more than 200 trainees started in Templemore. That was the first time more than 200 started since before Covid-19. It is a good indicator.”
“I thank Deputy McGrath for this important question. I commend him on asking it because in order to achieve what we want to in the criminal justice system, we need an appropriate number of members of An Garda Síochána in the force. The Deputy asked a question about Templemore, which I will answer presently. He has also consistently and effectively campaigned to get more gardaí on the street in Cork city and county. I thank him for organising a recent trip to Togher Garda station, which was very instructive and useful to me as Minister for Justice. On getting more gardaí on the street, we need to ensure we get more of them into Templemore. After I was appointed, a recruitment competition started for An Garda Síochána. It was the fourth such competition in recent years.”
“With regard to the oral hearings, there is no absolute right to an oral hearing at appeal stage. People have an oral hearing at first instance, and that is absolutely entrenched; however, just because someone has an oral hearing at first instance does not mean he or she is entitled to go through a full re-hearing at the appeal stage. We will, however, ensure that the appeals tribunal will in all instances have a record of what is said at oral hearings in the first instance.”
“As I indicated previously, the number of appeals on hand for the appeals tribunal is in the region of 12,000. I cannot give a breakdown of the years from which they originate. With regard to judicial review, there is a trend whereby people get a decision in the first instance and then appeal, and when they are rejected on appeal, they proceed to a judicial review. We also need to examine the judicial review system. A judicial review should not act as a stay upon an order that has been made by the appeals tribunal. We seem to just accept it as standard procedure that if a judicial review is initiated, the effect of the decision of the appeals tribunal is suspended. It should not be. I am going to examine this in the context of introducing legislation to deal with civil legal reform in the area of judicial reviews.”
“The general scheme of the international protection Bill, which I published earlier this month, will provide that only in exceptional circumstances would one be entitled to an oral hearing in the appeals process. That will expedite the process.”
“The Deputy is correct that in trying to get a handle on, and gain control of, the appeals process, we also need to try to reduce the number of people coming to Ireland seeking asylum. We need to recognise that of the cases processed this year at first instance, more than 80% have been rejected. Regrettably, too many people are coming to Ireland claiming asylum who are not entitled to it. I accept what the Deputy said about the appeals process: it needs to be expedited. We can expedite it through the recruitment of more tribunal members, and that is something we are doing. We are also going to change the process by which an oral hearing can be available in an appeal. At present, one is entitled to an oral hearing having already had an oral hearing at first instance. There is an oral hearing at first instance and there is an oral appeal.”
“As of 2 May of this year, the appeals tribunal had 12,613 appeals on hand. When we consider the number of appeals it has completed to date in 2025, we see it has completed only 1,583. The Deputy will see we are getting on top of the number of decisions on applications at first instance, but regrettably that is not happening at the appeal stage of the process. However, we are resourcing the system much more and trying to get more tribunal members in to determine the appeals. It is recognised that we are going to be able to improve and increase the tribunal’s decision-making capacity. We believe IPAT’s decision-making capacity will increase further this year, with a target of concluding more than 5,500 appeals by the year’s end, assuming the anticipated new members can be got on board quickly and trained and become effective.”
“I thank the Deputy for his question. He specifically focused on the appeals tribunal but it is important to consider the position at first instance because that will really be the driver of the work for the appeals tribunal. The process of hearing and determining appeals at first instance has speeded up very significantly, even in the past year. In 2024, the IPO delivered more than 14,000 decisions at first instance by comparison with 8,500 in 2023. Already in 2025, or in the first third of the year, the office has delivered nearly 7,000 decisions. If it keeps going at that rate, we should get to between 20,000 and 21,000 decisions at first instance this year. Many of these decisions, although not all, are appealed to the International Protection Appeals Tribunal, IPAT. Let me give the up-to-date position.”
“I commend Kieran Rose on the excellent work he has done in this area. He has been in contact with me frequently as well. I would appreciate getting a copy of that research. We are trying to revisit an injustice that was done to people in a different era. It is commendable that there is agreement in the House that this should be done. What we are discussing is the most appropriate statutory mechanism to do that. The more complex we make it, the more lengthy it will be. I will look to see if any straightforward, simple legislative solution could be introduced. It may require people to apply. Alternatively, we could just apply it across the board, even posthumously to persons convicted of such offences. I will discuss it in the Department. Again, I thank the Deputy for raising the issue.”
“If we go back and start appraising and assessing many of the convictions from the fifties and sixties individually - to be frank, I am not aware of the number of convictions but for the type of convictions I am aware of - that would probably be problematic. I will see if there is any general statutory provision that could be introduced in a miscellaneous provisions Bill stating that for anyone convicted of an offence, that offence would be disregarded. However, that could be complicated.”
“What I will do, although I have not discussed this with the Department, is give consideration to some short mechanism to put some provision in a miscellaneous provisions Bill that would deal with disregarding convictions that were imposed in these types of cases. In respect of the post office scandal in the UK, general legislation was introduced very promptly within a statutory scheme, which stated that for anyone convicted of these offences, those convictions would be disregarded. I will give some consideration as to whether that is possible. However, the Deputy will be aware that this is a complex issue.”
“Then Minister, Deputy McEntee, published the group’s final report in 2023. It contains 95 recommendations. I am committed to translating these recommendations into heads of Bill. I will do so as promptly as I can, but I have to be frank with the Deputy in saying there are so many different competing interests that I would have to take people off another Bill to expedite this Bill in order to get it done as promptly as possible.”
“I am committed to publishing the relevant heads of Bill in due course. As the Deputy will know, these Victorian-era laws criminalised consensual sexual activity between men until those laws were repealed in 1993. He mentioned that in 2021, a working group was formed to examine the disregard of such convictions. The group met 11 times during its tenure. In late 2022, the Department held a public consultation on key issues related to the development of a scheme to disregard relevant convictions. That consultation process received nearly 150 submissions from wide groups of societal interests throughout the country. Their deliberations were invaluable and helped shape the final recommendations from the group. A summary report of this extensive consultation has since been published.”
“I thank the Deputy for his question. I am very aware of his long-standing interest and commitment in respect of this issue. I regret that there is a series of legislative priorities within my Department's remit at present. Departmental staff are working on 31 Bills. Officials in the Department, along with their counterparts in the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel, continue to work on this Bill, and all the other legislation, as promptly as possible. It may not be satisfactory from the Deputy's point of view that I cannot give him a definitive timeline for when the heads of Bill will be published, but it is still very much a clear commitment of this Government, as referenced in the programme for Government, to address the historical wrongs that were done to people who were criminalised under these laws.”
“It has not been done previously and I have been advised by the Attorney General that it would be subject to, most likely, a successful challenge in the courts. That is something we have to be very hesitant about going down the avenue of, notwithstanding the requests of people to do so.”
“The Deputy is not being repetitive. On the intention of the proposed change, what will happen is a judge will look at a counselling note and make a decision on whether there is anything of relevance in it where, if it is not disclosed, it would result in an unfair trial. In most situations, it is highly unlikely that disclosure would then occur. However, what I cannot do, and I know some people want me to ask the Oireachtas to do this, is just have a blanket ban on disclosure of a certain category of documentation or certain type of evidence. If I did that, it would undermine the interests of victims of sexual violence more. It would mean there would be challenges to convictions. It would put a blanket ban on certain types of evidence.”
“At present, too many notes are being revealed unnecessarily. It has become a bit of a fishing expedition. That will stop. The only occasion upon which counselling notes will be disclosed, after the law is changed, will be if a court believes that if they are not disclosed, it would result in an unfair trial.”
“I read that Supreme Court decision. One of the points mentioned by the court through Mr. Justice Collins was it was surprising that since 2017, when section 19A was enacted, there has not been a reported judgement on the hearing that should take place in respect of the challenge to counselling notes. I agree with the Deputy that it is very traumatic for someone to know that confidential counselling notes could be made available for the purpose of the defence of a criminal trial. None of us would like to see our medical records, let alone counselling notes, disclosed in a public realm. That is why I intend to change the law. The changes that are being advocated will be of huge assistance to the individuals who say to the Deputy they are concerned about the trauma of being required to disclose counselling notes.”
“It would mean that if a person accused on an offence wanted access to counselling notes there would have to be a hearing in advance of the trial to determine whether he or she was entitled to them. The judge would have to look at them. There would not be an opportunity for a complainant to say that he or she would waive their right to objection. A judge would also only say that the notes had to be disclosed to an accused in circumstances where the judge thought a fair trial would not be possible if they were not disclosed.”
“On the other hand, there is the right of individuals to a fair trial if they are being prosecuted for a serious criminal offence that could result in them losing their liberty. We tried to balance these two rights in respect of the disclosure of counselling notes in 2017 in the sexual offences Act enacted then. Unfortunately, that Act did not achieve what we had wished to achieve. I want to amend section 19A of the legislation, and obviously it is up to the House as to whether that should happen, through the removal of subsection 17, which gives an entitlement to a complainant to waive their entitlement to object to the disclosure of counselling notes. I also wish, subject to advice from the Attorney General, to amend subsection 11 of section 19A by removing paragraph ( a ). The effect of these changes would be very beneficial.”
“I thank the Deputy for her question. One of the most difficult things I have to do as Minister for Justice, and indeed, that the House has to do, is to resolve issues around balancing conflicting constitutional rights. This is an issue where there are conflicting constitutional rights that need to be balanced but, as the Deputy indicated, that balance needs to be shifted legislatively in the near future. The balance of rights is twofold. On one hand, there is the right to privacy that people have in counselling notes when they go to a counsellor or psychologist and provide private information about their lives to that counsellor or psychologist. At first principles, we all assume that information will be kept private.”
“Part of the problem is that there is no compulsion in respect of trying to get people to attend those courses and receive treatment for addiction services if they are out in the community. That is part of the reason decisions are made for those short-term sentences. I will also bring forward issues relating to electronic monitoring, particularly in respect of remand prisoners, that might reduce the numbers.”
“I know the Deputy did not suggest the issue about releasing serious offenders. As part of my response, though, I have to be able to say that because it is an issue that people can legitimately put to me. Regarding people with addiction, the Deputy is correct. Many of the people who are given prison sentences have addiction issues and chaotic lives. However, part of the reason judges sometimes sentence individuals who have addiction issues and chaotic lives to short terms of imprisonment is because judges think individuals can get some mandatory services provided to them there. That is part of the reason judges do that. We can ask the Irish Prison Service about it. I agree with the Deputy that we need to try to provide better services out in the community to ensure we can treat addiction levels.”
“Considering the efforts made by victims' groups and the money we have put into An Garda Síochána and resourcing the courts, a great deal has been invested in the administration of the criminal justice system, not just financially, but also the emotional effort put in by many complainants in cases. I am not going to undermine that system by making a decision that we should just halve the sentences of people incarcerated for serious offences.”
“Since I have been made Minister, I have been to Cork Prison, Cloverhill Prison and I am going to another prison on Monday. I intend to visit every prison, if I am lucky enough to survive in office for a sufficient period of time. It is important that the crisis be addressed. It is being addressed. I know that, to deal with the specific issue the Deputy mentioned about mattresses on the floor, bunk beds are now being purchased and implemented. That is important. To be frank, I am not going down the route taken in England and Wales in the past nine months where a decision was made by the UK Government in response to the overcrowding crisis that serious offenders would be released from prison at a very early stage. That is not something I am considering. It would be inappropriate to do so.”
“Since 2022, capacity across the prison estate has increased by more than 300 new spaces - 134 spaces were delivered in the past 12 months - and more than 100 additional spaces will be added this year. This is a priority for me.”
“Currently, a judge is required to consider a community service order if a sentence of up to one year is being considered. I am going to extend that so that when a court is considering a sentence that carries a penalty of up to two years, the court must also consider a community service order. Similarly, I am going to extend the number of hours that can be imposed by way of a community service order from 240 to 480. These measures will be of assistance. We need to increase capacity, but these measures are not incompatible. It is not as though we can only have measures for increasing prison space without trying to consider measures that will result in decarceration.”
“I thank Deputy Gannon for this important question. Due to the rise in our population, it is important that we increase the number of spaces within prison. The Deputy asked me about measures that would increase decarceration and I will come to that presently, but it is important to say that more prison spaces are available in light of the increasing population and the ability of the authorities to prosecute serious offences and fine people who are convicted of those offences. I am tabling proposals that will present further options to courts other than simply incarcerating a person who has been convicted of a criminal offence. As published in the general scheme of the miscellaneous provisions Bill last week, I identified that I wanted to, and am proposing to, change the terms of the Criminal Justice (Community Service) Act 1983.”
“There are very many fine members of An Garda Síochána who you speak to, and they will tell you they derive great satisfaction from their jobs. We need to get the numbers up. More importantly, we need to get the numbers we have out on the streets. We are beginning to see that. We are in a great position in Ireland where people want to see members of An Garda Síochána on the streets in their communities, and that is what I am committed to doing.”
“I agree with the Deputy's position, and that of Sinn Féin, that the standard fund threshold part of the tax system needs to be changed. It is my strong expectation that that will happen. In respect of the numbers within An Garda Síochána, as the Deputy will know from the programme for Government, we have given a commitment that we will seek to get the numbers in An Garda Síochána up by 5,000 over the course of the Government term. I have said it before; it is a challenging issue to try to get Garda numbers up but all I can do - and I would ask the Deputy and other Members of the House to do it as well - is to emphasise that, notwithstanding the danger associated with being a member of An Garda Síochána, which we tragically saw last weekend, it is a job that is worth doing.”
“I know there were issues of some concern in respect of the standard fund threshold to persons who are within An Garda Síochána, but when you look at the package that is available, I am fairly satisfied and have a strong expectation that the full recommendations of Dr. Donal de Buitléir will be implemented by Government in due course.”
“No, a person with no policing experience will not be appointed, or recommended by me rather, for the position of Garda Commissioner. It is also important to emphasise that we have a lot of excellent candidates within An Garda Síochána who should be putting their names forward for the position of Garda Commissioner. As it such a prestigious job at such a well-resourced and high-reputation entity within the world, I have no doubt that people from outside this country will be putting their names forward. I want to see an active and strong competition. It is a really important role. We need an inspirational leader and somebody who recognises the important role that An Garda Síochána plays within our society.”
“I know we are going to have many excellent candidates from within and without the force putting forward their names for the competition.”
“I have already started the process for the appointment of the new Garda Commissioner. I consulted with the relevant statutory bodies in advance of the post being advertised last Friday. As the Deputy will be aware, the closing date for applications is 29 May. After that, there will be interviews. I believe I will be in a position in mid-July to go to the Government with a proposal on the name of a person who will be appointed by the Government as Garda Commissioner. If that is achieved in July, as I expect it to be achieved, it will mean that the new Commissioner will commence his or her post from 1 September. To answer the Deputy's question directly, we will be in a position to have a new Commissioner starting as leader of the force on 1 September next. It is an extremely important position.”
“I thank the Deputy for his very important question but I think he will agree with me it fades into insignificance when we consider the terrible events of last weekend and how they affected An Garda Síochána. Like the Deputy no doubt, I want to start these questions by extending my condolences to the family, friends and colleagues of Garda Kevin Flatley who gave his life in the line of duty. On that point and in answer to the Deputy's question, it is fair to say that a Commissioner, no matter who he or she is, can only be as good as the rank and file gardaí who serve under them. Nonetheless the Deputy's question is a valid and an important one. Section 26 of the new Act, that sets out the procedure for the appointment of a Garda Commissioner. As the Deputy has indicated, the Commissioner, Mr. Harris, is retiring on 1 September.”
“Robert Somerville, could take on board some of the suggestions and see how they might come forward with proposed amendments on Committee Stage in this House. I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach. I will listen to the other contributions.”
“I want to ensure we do not set up a whole new body of legal complexity by introducing special advocates. However, I would have thought that if we went down the route of enacting legislation to provide for special advocates, the role and the amount of times they would be required would be very limited. I would have thought that most parole applications do not rely upon what is being referred to as closed information. I thank Senators Ruane and Flynn for introducing the Bill. As I said, Government will not be opposing it. We are proposing an amendment that would adjourn the passing of Second Stage in the Seanad for a period of six months. During that period we will all have an opportunity to look at it in more detail. I would appreciate it if Senator Ruane, and her fine drafter Mr.”
“The main reason we would benefit from an adjournment for a period of six months - Second Stage will be passed in six months - is that I will have an opportunity to engage with the Parole Board. I will get to hear from it about the extent to which it relies on this closed information. From what has been said by Senator Ruane, there have obviously been some situations where it has relied on closed information. I also want to find out from the board what it thinks the effect will be of allowing for special advocates. The parole process has become more prescribed by legislation. That needed to happen, but I do not want to turn it into a very complicated and highly legalised area. It already provides for the presence of lawyers in terms of representation not just by the parole applicant but indeed by the families of victims.”
“At the very least, these issues need to be considered in a broader context with a view to a more developed legislative policy and operational infrastructure. I do not say that to Senator Ruane in a negative way. This has been a very useful contribution and Bill. The Bill is an important first step. These are not theoretical matters. I am conscious that there are practical examples of where this issue will arise in respect of people who are applying for parole. These issues are at the heart of public confidence in the criminal justice system. The Government amendment to the motion provides some space for further analysis. I would like to have further analysis in respect of it. I received correspondence from the Irish Penal Reform Trust, which is supporting the Senator's Bill. Obviously, I will give that very careful consideration as well.”