Malcolm Noonan
Agricultural Panel · Green Party · Ireland
“Before I invite Senator Stephenson back in, I welcome members of the Young Entrepreneurs Club to the Gallery. They are guests of the Minister, Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill. Cuirim fáilte romhaibh go léir.”
“Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire. I again commend Senator Black, who has been campaigning on this issue for a very long time. It is disappointing that we are here this evening without services included despite the very detailed recommendations of the Oireachtas joint committee, the views of many legal experts and the clear legal opinion of the…”
“I am surprised that the Government is presenting us with a Bill that excludes services. The Government used to tell us that it was for legal reasons.”
“In fairness, it has become even clearer from the remarks made by the Government in recent days that fear of the Trump Administration is driving the decision, with illogical arguments that the Trump Administration might just tolerate a Bill that bans goods but if were to bring forward a Bill that covered goods and services, it would someho…”
“I join with my colleagues in our outright condemnation of this approach by the Government in relation to this legislation. The Government is going to be the lead negotiator on behalf of the European Union at both the climate Conference of the Parties, COP, and the biodiversity COP later this year.”
“The rural housing policy was launched last week. We have had the closure of the public consultation on the nature restoration plan. Lo and behold, the long-awaited phase 2 of the land-use review was published two days after both of those policies. This document has huge implications for land use in Ireland.”
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“We will see the LIFE projects being eliminated in the next cycle as well. This is at a time when we have a nature restoration plan and an opportunity for farmers to participate in long-term schemes where they could be getting additional income for restoring nature on their lands. Will the Minister say how many local abattoirs are left in this country? We should be butchering meat and selling it locally in our local butcher shops. My colleague made the point in relation to the groceries order and the below-cost selling of vegetables in our supermarkets. That issue has to be tackled. The horticulture sector is really in a terrible state and it needs similar supports, if not greater supports, than dairy and beef are getting.”
“Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire. I just want to add to the points made by my colleague. The shock that has been reverberating around the world has to be the wake-up call for our agricultural system. It gives us the opportunity to look at changes in models of agriculture in Ireland and in particular to look at regenerative agriculture such as using less chemical fertiliser inputs. Among the farms down in my part of the country is the Daniels' farm that uses a lot less nitrogen-based fertilisers and that is a profitable dairy enterprise. Agroforestry and working farming with nature has to be a central tenet of the next cycle of what we do with CAP. The CAP budget will be reduced and there are huge demands on it. It is clear that the Commission is trying to move away from those direct subsidies.”
“It is about the protection and restoration of local vernacular heritage. It often employs local contractors and local heritage and conservation skills. As I said, many farmers want to hold onto these buildings in their farmyards and the grant scheme has been a real lifeline in doing that. I want to question the Minister in that regard. Why was this really important grant scheme cut in half from 2025 to 2026?”
“The second issue I want to raise is the traditional farm buildings grant. It is a popular grant scheme among farmers. It deals with not only the conservation and restoration of a part of our vernacular heritage but also had an effect because these are habitats for barn owls, swifts and other wildlife. The grant is very popular among farming organisations and farmers in particular. It is administered by the Heritage Council and the funding is in place through the Department of agriculture. Unfortunately, funding this year was cut, for whatever reason. It was not cut by a small percentage but was cut in half from €1.5 million to €750,000. Is it the intention of the Department of agriculture to get rid of the scheme? As I said, it has been oversubscribed in previous years, in my experience.”
“It also includes Fota Wildlife Park because they take the eggs from the nests and head start them, incubate them, in Fota Wildlife Park and release them. I was fortunate enough to be out on Lough Ree with Mr. Murphy and the team last year when the birds were released. There have been some successes, but we are talking about a bird that has experienced a 98% decline since 1980. It is quite shocking. For all of our efforts, the bigger plan needs to be around landscape scale restoration. We have these huge interventions that are taking place. Nest sites need predator control 24-7. We have broken landscapes and habitats. The Government needs to invest significantly. I will use the opportunity of today to welcome the efforts that have been made, are ongoing and are proving successful up around the midlands and in the north west.”
“I want to be associated with the comments in relation to our colleague and friend, Senator Eileen Flynn. What she has gone through is appalling. It behoves us all to be there with her and stand with her, and to challenge the social media companies, in particular. I want to reference two specific items. Today is world curlew day. We have seen some positive results in County Monaghan from the head starting programme, which was run by Breeding Waders EIP, led by Mr. Owen Murphy, down on Lough Ree. This is a collaborative piece of work that involves the National Association of Regional Game Councils, NARGC, through the mink eradication programme, the National Parks and Wildlife Service, NPWS, local landowners and local communities.”
“Within the above-the-shop scheme, the idea of removing the element of commercial on the ground floor should be given consideration, given the flux that retail is in currently across the country, to allow premises and particularly small businesses to return those buildings to full occupancy. It has to be given consideration, given the state of retail in the country at the minute. Again, I ask the Minister of State to give consideration to the one-stop shop idea.”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire Stáit. I thank him for his comprehensive answer. I appreciate the conservation advice grants. They are very useful but they are very limited to the conservation element of it. That is why I think the one-stop shop, which involves having the interdisciplinary skills within the local authorities, is a really progressive approach. I again ask the Minister of State's Department to perhaps give it consideration. This is about heritage-led regeneration and I know the Department is now working to review and broaden the definition of dereliction. It is really important to get that right as well because we see many property owners making small interventions and then trying to not have properties classified as derelict.”
“I ask the Minister of State to give consideration to engaging with the CCMA, LGMA, local authority members and the Heritage Council to see if it is possible for us to establish these one-stop shops. As I said, we have a wide array of supports there and funding mechanisms are now in place but the missing piece of the jigsaw is the establishment of one-stop shops in our local authorities.”
“There is also concern within the sector more widely that there is a shortage of relevant conservation skills, such as joinery, masonry and glazing, but also conservation architects. I am concerned that we may lose vernacular features on older buildings and building fabric that could be saved and, in the case of older shops and buildings, the loss of features such as shopfronts, sash windows, guttering and other features that are intrinsic to Irish town centres. The good grant schemes in the Minister of State's Department like the historic structures fund and built heritage investment schemes help in that regard. There is also a technical guidance document for restoration which was developed by the national built heritage service, which is most welcome.”
“Since the establishment of the town centre first principles in 2021, which was based on a Scottish initiative, a suite of new roles has come into our local government system, such as architectural conservation officers, town centre first officers and vacancy officers. However, project proposers often find it tricky, to say the least, to navigate the system and there are varying interpretations from county to county regarding fire and access regulations, sometimes at the behest of the fire officer. Sometimes they have different interpretations of what can and cannot be done to a building. By establishing a network of one-stop-shops across the local government system, we can overcome and develop a consistency of approach and application, share best practice and, importantly, move these projects along.”
“A measure that is one of the missing pieces of the jigsaw has been sought for many years by the Irish Green Building Council and the Vacant to Vibrant Building Alliance, which I think the Minister of State might have met, as well as by the architect and conservation profession more generally, namely, the establishment of a one-stop shop in every local authority to help project developers navigate their way through the legislative planning, regulatory and incentive matrix. This would ensure our councils become an enabling force to get these wonderful built heritage elements back into to productive use, to get families back living in our town centres and to help uplift those towns commercially and socially.”
“They should have been core to it, we should have been looking to see what we have and do all in our power to prevent urban sprawl and the loss of good farming land out in the peripheries and into the countryside. The Government put a timed delay on our cross-party group vacancy and dereliction Bill and a similar Bill ,which had been brought forward by the Green Party when we were in government, but I appreciate many of these measures have been introduced and it is very welcome to see that happen. We do not care who brings them in; I said that to the Minister of State the day we were here. They are an essential component that is missing to help animate and scale-up the restoration and renovation of these incredible buildings.”
“We spoke here before during the introduction of our vacancy and dereliction Bill, and thankfully, some of the measures - quite a lot of the measures - outlined in our cross-party Bill have been adopted. I welcome the introduction of the grant schemes in the Department for living above the shop. It is something I feel very strongly about as I travel around the country and see the potential and the lights off in so many above-shop premises in our villages, towns and cities. This grant scheme also adds to a suite of measures and supports for the renovation and restoration of older and historic buildings in our villages, towns and city centres. There is no doubt in my mind that these measures should have been embedded from the start in housing policy.”
“Our mainstream media outlets have acted impartially and in a balanced way, presenting the news as it unfolded, and like many others had to report on a very fast-evolving situation that was unfolding in multiple locations across the country. I commend them on this. The protests and blockades were organised in WhatsApp groups and fuelled by social media companies allowing hate speech and incitement to hatred to be shared freely. If the Minister has a gripe with how all of this unfolded, then he needs to haul in X and Meta.”
“There are public representatives all over the country who should reflect on their complicity in such behaviour at the very least for not calling out the racism, incitement to hatred and utterly vile language that was used by a small but growing minority. It is clear that the protest was hijacked by outside forces. Gardaí were intimidated and threatened. It behoves all of us as policymakers to call this out and tackle it head-on. What is even more worrying is that a mechanism and means have now been tried and tested to grind this country to a halt. The security review must ensure that recommendations are made to future-proof critical infrastructure from being blockaded. The Minister, Deputy O'Donovan, proposed to task Coimisiún na Meán to review the media coverage of the protest.”
“This is a very experienced Government with many years of governance under its belt, yet it has displayed unprecedented levels of incompetence and disregard for our international obligations. It is setting future generations up for an unsafe future through rowing back on action on climate, nature and water. We have been consistently told the carbon tax was sacrosanct. We will face a hell of a battle when the deferred increase has to be got over the line in October. How will the Government fund the warmer homes scheme? Despite this, nobody in public life deserves to be treated in a way that threatens you or your family's home or denigrates your dignity. What we witnessed online over the course of the past week was disgusting.”
“I thank all the relevant line Ministers who are with us today. It is appreciated. We do not always get the relevant Minister to the subject matter. I think this is appreciated by the Senators so we hope that continues.”
“However, I am of the view that we need to have a wider debate on these issues which, unlike this debate, is not confined to the wording of a motion before the House.”
“I do not think we need more TDs, but we certainly do need more councillors. The ratio of councillors to citizens, because of the abolition of borough and town councils, needs to be addressed as a matter of urgency. At the very least, we need to look at the reinstatement of our five borough councils. On "Prime Time" last night, we saw how the issue of a directly elected mayor needs to be embraced again. We look with embarrassment at other European countries in which mayoral elections are taking place. The mayors in Paris and Munich are driving progressive agendas. We can do the same here, but only if full powers granted to directly elected mayors in the large urban centres. I welcome the debate.”
“We have tasked An Coimisiún Toghcháin to look at election posters, reducing the voting age to 16, directly elected mayors, local government reform, wider issues around the participation of minorities and quotas for political parties. I do not think there are any ambitions regarding the holding of referendums during the term of this Government. The Electoral Commission, An Coimisiún Toghcháin, should be bringing these issues forward by means of its reports. It is disappointing that the Government chose not to put in place a dedicated Minister of State with responsibility for electoral reform. With respect, the Department is a very busy one. The Minister, Deputy Browne, has responsibility for housing, which is his main priority. We are discussing the ratio of TDs. The Cross-Party Group will not be opposing the motion.”
“Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit. I also welcome his officials. I soldiered with them on the reform Act and the establishment of An Coimisiún Toghcháin. I recall well the discussion around six-seater constituencies when that legislation was being developed. The suggestion was certainly resisted vehemently by Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael. The establishment of such constituencies would lead to greater diversity in our political system. It is something that should be given active consideration. It would completely eliminate the county boundary breaches, in my view. That matter needs to be looked at. There is a wider issue here with regard to reform in general and the lack of ambition on the part of this Government when it comes to electoral reform.”
“(3) The report shall analyse the effects of this Act and include details as to whether the treatment of asylum seekers, international protection applicants and other immigrants is compliant with international law and the European Convention on Human Rights. (4) The report shall be laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas.”.”
“I move amendment No. 24: In page 28, between lines 16 and 17, to insert the following: “ Report on compliance with European Convention on Human Rights 8. (1) Any order or regulation under this Act shall comply with the European Convention on Human Rights. (2) Within 12 months of the passing of this Act, and every two years thereafter, the Minister shall produce a report on the implementation of this Act regarding compatibility with the European Convention on Human Rights, and taking due account of relevant judgments, declarations, decisions and advisory opinions of the European Court of Human Rights.”
“We have to monitor the situation in Ukraine as the war evolves but there should not be a cliff edge for hosts or Ukrainian families living in accommodation. We should consider broadening the scope of the scheme to benefit other cohorts, such as people exiting direct provision who find themselves at high risk of homelessness. We should also give consideration to applying the new 30-day designated accommodation centre policy on a needs basis as opposed to strictly by date of arrival. This could include assistance provision to the less vulnerable to support them in accessing employment and finding accommodation within the community to allow bed space for those most in need. I request that exceptions are made for the most vulnerable to remain to in State-provided accommodation. I also ask for a planned and phased transition away from the ARP.”
“Seventy-one percent of beneficiaries of temporary protection live in the same properties as their hosts. Under the rent-a-room scheme, a homeowner could rent out a room for up to €1,166 per month, or €14,000 annually, tax free. Comparatively, the ARP remains a less lucrative option in cases of shared accommodation. There are almost 42,000 people benefiting and living in 23,000 properties. There are still 20,000 people living in State-provided accommodation who will continue to have challenges in finding ARP hosts. There is evidence that there have been requests for unregulated top-up payments since the ARP was reduced from €800 to €600. That is something the Government should be mindful of. I ask that there be no cliff edge in relation to this.”
“There is research from the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and the RTB on the impact of the ARP scheme on the private rental market. That research, which has not been published, would be welcome and useful to have in the public arena. There is no published evidence to indicate the ARP has significantly distorted the private rental market. In fact, the Irish Research Council host survey found that 91% of hosts were not previously landlords registered with the RTB. Further, the proposed Government legislation will most likely preclude RTB-registered properties from being eligible for the ARP, further reducing interference with the private rental market. The ARP provides a monthly tax-free payment of €600, equating to €7,200 annually.”
“I welcome the Minister of State. I will be supporting the Government motion. I join my colleague Senator Ahearn in reflecting on the horror of the ongoing war in Ukraine. It has not dissipated. Many people living in Ukrainian cities have experienced one of the worst winters they have ever had, with attacks on energy infrastructure, extreme cold and ongoing bombardment and destruction caused by Putin and the Russian army. We can be proud of our response to date to the war in Ukraine. The measure under discussion was one of the good ones introduced by the Government and I welcome the extension of it. I urge that when a decision has to be made about winding it up, that be done on a phased basis over time. I reject the suggestion that the scheme is having a distorting effect on the rental market.”
“It used to be the point of pride for previous Governments and it is deeply regrettable that this Government is choosing to blindly ignore all the expert testimony we have heard to date in order to play through on immigration at the expense of vulnerable children. This amendment would straightforwardly remove these provisions from the Bill, which we believe is essential.”
“It is really baffling that this provision has been made in this Bill's passage, while evidence heard throughout the pre-legislative scrutiny stage and beyond is that this is impossible. We could charitably say that the Government's determination to include this is wishful thinking that if we just keep saying it is in the child's best interests, then it will be, or we could be less charitable by saying that this is wilful ignorance. Our job in these Houses is to legislate based on reality, not on wishful thinking. Again, the reality is that detaining a child is never in the child's best interests. It is simply wrong. Ireland has never resorted to the detention of children who have not committed a crime in our migration system. This needs to be a point of pride.”
“Together with amendment No. 7, they seek to ensure that a child who has not committed any crime cannot be detained under this Bill. I have spoken to amendment No. 50 already. On amendment No. 52, the detention of children is never compatible with their best interests. Every human rights organisation and expert group we have heard from has been clear on this issue. The amendment would delete the provisions in the Bill that allow for the detention of minors by the Garda in order to ascertain their identity or nationality. The Bill, as it is currently drafted, includes a stipulation that in order to detain a child, the Garda must be satisfied that it is in the accompanied minor's best interests.”
“50 and 51, would require that when an applicant is accompanied by a child, less coercive measures than detention are used. The expansion of detention under this Bill, putting powers of arrest at the heart of our migration policy for the first time, is deeply regrettable. What is more, the Bill does not provide for the safeguards necessary for vulnerable people and groups within the system. Most egregiously, it has already been said that the Bill allows for the detention of children. In cases where a child is in custody of an applicant, it is imperative that the child is not under threat of detention simply by way of accompanying his or her parents or guardian to the detention centre. Where a child is under the guardianship of an adult, less coercive measures must be applied and that is what these amendments seek to do.”
“It is not our job as legislators to legislate for the best intentions for the Government or the Minister of the day. I am sure the Minister will say this amendment is unnecessary because, of course, it is not his vision for our migration system. Simply put, we do not believe that the Bill, as drafted, includes the necessary safeguards to ensure that arrest and detention do not at some point in the future take centre stage in our migration systems. These have been issues that have been highlighted by others in opposition over the course of the past two days. That is the impetus of this amendment. It is to protect the fundamental right to seek asylum and ensure it can never become criminalised in this country. Amendment No. 49, together with amendments Nos.”
“That is why we are putting forward this amendment. We need to make it crystal clear on the face of it that the Bill and all other options must be looked at before detention is resorted to. In relation to amendment No. 38, the Bill significantly expands the powers of arrest and detention within our asylum and immigration system. Again, this is regrettable. The amendment makes it clear that on the face of the Bill, the act of seeking international protection itself can never be criminalised. It is a simple amendment. The expansion of detention inherent in the Bill is unwelcome and something to which we are opposed. We only need to look around the world today to see that people end up in dark places when migration itself is treated as a criminal matter or when detention centres become the primary means of dealing with this issue.”
“We need to ensure that we look at all alternatives available to the State in relation to how we treat people once they arrive in our country, the processes we put them through and the places in which we put them. The Minister claimed in the Dáil that this is effectively unnecessary because the Bill already limits the circumstances for detention, including children, as though that should end the discussion on this matter. However, the limit he spoke of is the requirement that the Garda must be satisfied that the child's detention is in the interests of the child, which, as we know, is not true. He also pointed out that detention would be time limited to 12 hours as if to say that 12 hours' detention is a trifling matter not deserving of our scrutiny. Simply put, we are not satisfied that this issue is dealt with adequately in the Bill.”
“We should be clear first of all that, as various human rights groups have made clear, the detention of a child is never in the child's best interests and runs contrary to the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. It is incompatible with the child's best interests, yet the Bill currently allows for the detention of children. Ireland has never resorted to the detention of children for immigration reasons in the past. This has been a point of pride for successive Governments. However, if the Government is insistent, as it seems to be, on changing this and for the first time embedding the detention of children within our immigration system, this amendment is vital.”
“I move amendment No. 19: In page 23, between lines 26 and 27, to insert the following: “(2) A reference in this Act to a “measure of last resort” means, in relation to an adult or a child, a measure that is taken only after all non-custodial alternatives to detention have been duly considered, in accordance with Recital 33 and Article 10(2) of the Reception Conditions Directive.”. I will speak to amendments Nos. 19, 38, 49, 50, 51 and 52 in the name of the Cross-Party Group. This amendment seeks to define “measure of last resort” to ensure that non-custodial alternatives are enshrined in the Bill and that all alternative options are examined before a person - an adult or a child - is detained.”
“I move amendment No. 1 to amendment No. 14: In the definition of “legal counselling”, after paragraph (c)(vi) to insert “legal counselling shall be tailored to the individual needs and circumstances of the applicant;”.”
“I move amendment No. 13: In page 20, between lines 15 and 16, to insert the following: “ “legal counselling” means the provision to an applicant of information, guidance and assistance relating to the asylum procedure, having regard to the particular circumstances of the applicant, and that is provided— (a) on an individual and in-person basis, (b) by a practicing solicitor or barrister, (c) in a language that is understood by the applicant, and includes— (i) assistance in the lodging of an application for international protection, (ii) support in the preparation for any interview conducted at first instance, and (iii) the provision of information on the means available to challenge a decision refusing such an application;”.”
“I would welcome an opportunity for a debate on that. I know our own Councillor Janet Horner has been very strong on having a directly elected mayor for the city of Dublin. It would be timely to have a debate in this Chamber on the report of the local government task force. In relation to Bessborough, there are other sites around the country and it would be useful if we had a debate about these sites where there are sensitive issues and where there are, potentially, burials. There are issues of closure for families, respect for burial sites and memorialisation of loved ones who have been lost. It would be useful to have a debate in this Chamber in that regard and the Cross-Party Group is calling for such a debate.”
“It is a significant challenge for that sector. I would welcome a debate on the issue of the horticultural sector. We have seen it almost collapse in the last ten years, going from 600 growers down to about 75 now. I heard the Minister speak about it. He spoke about people buying Irish, but that will not butter any parsnips when there are no Irish parsnips to butter. I would welcome a debate on the report of the local government task force. We hear of the debacle that is happening in Limerick with the Mayor of Limerick. Certainly there are forces there that do not want the directly elected mayors to be a success, but they have to be. It is an embarrassment that we do not have a directly elected mayor in Dublin and in other large urban centres as they do in Europe where they have budgets and powers and where they are accountable to people.”
“I have a number of issues to raise, the first being Hughes Agriculture and Farming, which was based in Kells, County Kilkenny. Hughes grew about 12% of the carrots produced in Ireland. It was also a grower of onions and daffodils. People would see its beautiful fields in parts of Kells in County Kilkenny. The company has folded and has gone into liquidation. It was a combination of and a perfect storm of prices and supermarkets. I remember talking to its representatives a few years ago and they told me it would be cheaper to plough the vegetables back into the ground than to accept the prices that supermarkets were offering them. It was also about labour and, more recently, the weather events we have had over the past couple of months where climate is now playing a part in the horticultural sector.”
“Before I ask the Senator to respond, I welcome our colleague Senator Alison Comyn and her guest, Ms Kirsty King from Downpatrick, a journalist, to the Public Gallery. Ms King is very welcome and I hope she enjoys her day. She is in good hands there. I call Senator Harmon.”
“It may be of use for the Senators to note that the Joint Committee on Climate, Environment and Energy will be dealing with the issue of the salmon on the River Moy and salmon conservation more widely at a session in April. I thank the Minister of State.”
“If there were some means of formalising an arrangement with local development partnerships, there is an infrastructure already there. It might be useful in terms of expediency but also in ensuring a more robust process.”
“I just want to make a quick point on that and particularly in respect of our amendment No. 60. I mentioned local development partnerships previously, which are already in arrangements through SICAP funding at local level. Many people seeking asylum will find themselves in direct provision in Ballaghaderreen, Cahersiveen and Kilkenny. The local development companies already exist. I am just thinking purely from a resource point of view, for the Legal Aid Board, that there might be a mechanism in terms of legal assistance through some kind of formalised arrangement with local development companies where even volunteers with legal expertise could be part of that process. As I said, there has already been a mechanism by which such informal practices have taken place.”
“I would welcome some clarity on tha, particularly in relation to the role of NGOs and local advocacy services, many of which have been operating around the country and have grown into more streamlined services over recent years. This is a hugely important and critical part of the Bill that we need to get right. It needs to be right from a human rights perspective.”
“I welcome the amendments being brought forward today. They belatedly define the concept of legal counselling and this provides some overdue clarity and reassurance. The fact remains, however, that we cannot accept a situation where there is any reduction in the level of legal assistance available to applicants. The Minister's amendment would not introduce any new concept into the Bill. Section 26 already lays out a wide range of rights and obligations that an applicant must be informed of. It is straightforwardly clear and obvious that we should include the legal assistance rights of the applicant. International protection applicants are vulnerable people navigating, as I said, complex legal processes.”
“I welcome the clarification the Minister brought here today but this is a critical time in the process for people seeking asylum here, many of whom have young children and families of various generations. It is a really daunting process to come into a country where they do not know the legal landscape and or the cultural landscape. It needs to be a service that is supportive to their needs so they can have the best chance of putting their case forward. With the best of intentions, people with genuine applications can fall through the gaps on this. I have seen where genuine applications have fallen through the cracks and people have been deported to conflict zones or to difficult situations. For example, members of LGBTQI+ or other vulnerable groups can find it very difficult to go back to those countries.”
“I am talking about the services provided by the Kilkenny LEADER partnership, for example, where they have migration support services, produce pamphlets in different languages, offer legal advice and have intercultural events for new communities. My question relates to the role of NGOs in all of this. The Bill sets out a lot of powers to the Minister of the day. This really seems to be a tenet of a lot of legislation the Government is bringing forward this term. Is there an active role there for advocacy services from NGOs, many of which right across the country are already providing services to people and families seeking asylum here? There is also the question around the cultural mediator. That remains unclear.”