Paula Butterly
Louth · Fine Gael · Ireland
“I thank the Minister for the updates. It is important to note that there is going to be more extensive engagement with students. I recently met a group of students from County Louth. We had a lively, truthful and open conversation, particularly with the boys who are attending all-boys schools.”
“I, too, welcome the scoping exercise in relation to the allegations of sexual abuse made against Michael Shine. Like the Tánaiste, I was struck by the words of the victims and survivors in noting that finally, they had been heard. I was also struck by their saying that finally, they had been believed.”
“I thank the Minister for that information and join her in congratulating the Lourdes hospital for getting on top of the issue of waiting lists and for the good work all the staff are doing, led by the new general manager.”
“Our Lady of Lourdes serves about 360,000 people in its catchment area at the moment and I believe that is growing rapidly. Going back to the idea that it is effectively a model 4 hospital while being classed as model 3, there is a case for looking at and expanding the services in Our Lady of Lourdes and making it a model 4 hospital.”
“The Minister is exactly right. We have food and drink of the highest quality produced at a local level by great producers in County Louth. The core element to producing this food and drink is our farmers. Our farmers are struggling at the moment, particularly those in the tillage sector.”
“It is great that 34% of tourism funding is directed towards food and drink, but that also highlights the scope we have to develop it even further. As a result, I welcome this strategy. However, a strategy is only as good as its implementation.”
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“We will not be left rebuilding only buildings but also relationships that have been fractured and potentially broken. Our world has changed and we must accept this and forge a path with those who share our same values. When the war ends, who will pick up the pieces? Europe has a responsibility to support reconstruction that is sustainable, accountable and rooted in the needs of the people most affected. This means investing in humanitarian relief that transitions into long-term development. It means supporting governance structures capable of delivering stability and justice. It means ensuring that displaced families can return home safely and that communities shattered by conflict have the resources to rebuild not only their infrastructure but their trust in a peaceful future.”
“Europe must act as a coherent block and not a collection of states responding at different speeds and with different priorities. Our credibility depends on unity, our influence depends on consistency and our values demand that we stand together when peace and stability are at stake. A co-ordinated diplomatic, humanitarian and strategic European approach is essential if we are to steer this crisis towards resolution. In tandem, we must also look beyond the present moment. When the bombs fall silent the work of rebuilding will begin and it will be immense. Post-war recovery cannot be an afterthought. It must be planned now, with the same urgency we bring to calls for de-escalation. The repercussions of this war, whether it lasts a few days, a few weeks, months or years will be felt for far longer than the war itself.”
“At moments like this, Europe must not speak in fragments but with one unified voice, firm in principle, clear in purpose and unwavering in its commitment to human dignity. De-escalation cannot be a slogan; it is an necessity. Every day that this conflict continues, the humanitarian toll will deepen. The first duty of the European and similarly minded international communities must be to halt the cycle of violence. That means pressing for an immediate cessation of hostilities, ensuring unimpeded humanitarian access if and when needed, and insisting that international law is upheld by all parties. De-escalation is the only path that prevents further loss of life and creates the space for diplomacy to function. De-escalation alone is not enough.”
“I thank the Minister for her clear and constructive decision-making over the past number of days. I also acknowledge the staff and all those who have been working around the clock to ensure Irish citizens feel safe in unsafe circumstances and have been reassured the State is there to support them. As we gather here today against the backdrop of a conflict that has inflicted profound suffering across the Middle East, the escalating civilian loss, the displacement of families and the destabilisation of an already fragile region demand not only our attention but our collective moral responsibility. Moments such as these require leadership, collective leadership and, above all, responsibility.”
“Shine to avoid justice at all costs, he was convicted. I have heard people in Drogheda and in the wider constituency of Louth say that even the dogs on the street knew what he was up to, yet nothing happened. I find this deeply disturbing as it speaks to a society and culture that I cannot comprehend but unfortunately I know has existed for far too long. To date, more than 400 men have come forward. One man aided and abetted by a society and institutions of secrecy and complicity did this to over 400 young boys and men. How did this happen? Who knew? Who did not want to believe? Who knew but simply chose to look the other way and who did nothing?”
“For 30 years Shine, the convicted sexual offender, was hidden in plain sight. He built a successful practice while he abused young boys and men. He became for many a pillar of society and for many a god, while young lives lay in tatters. Michael Shine started working in Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital in 1964. For context, that was 62 years ago. The first allegations were reported in 1977 but no action was taken. In 1983, further and separate allegations were made but no action was taken. In 1995, Bernadette Sullivan blew the lid off the sordid actions of this sick, vile man and the scandal was exposed. Michael Shine retired in 1995 on a full pension. He continued to live a carefree life while those he abused plunged deeper into despair. Finally in 2017, over 40 years after the first complaint and after serious challenges by Mr.”
“For decades, they have carried the trauma of what they have endured, too often in silence and too often without the support of the very systems meant to protect them. Their perseverance is the reason we are here today. Their determination has kept this issue in the public eye and pushed the State towards the action it should have taken long ago. I have had the honour of meeting victims and survivors of the convicted sexual offender, Michael Shine, and have listened to their brutal accounts of how they were not only abused by Shine, but how they were ignored for so long. I have seen the pain etched on their faces, lines that have deepened over the years not only as a result of the trauma caused by the paedophile, Shine, but also because of the silence and disbelief they have met in their search for answers and accountability.”
“He was very eager that I, as a newly elected Deputy, was well aware of what had happened to these people, that justice must be sought and that they must find some peace at some stage. The Minister's decision to appoint Mr. Staines, a senior counsel with deep experience supporting victims and vulnerable witnesses, particularly in cases involving sexual violence, is an important signal that this process must be rooted in dignity, compassion and respect. Supported by expert advisers, Maeve Lewis and Phil Scraton, I am confident that their collective expertise with victims of sexual violence and in shaping effective public enquiries will not only be invaluable but will set the direction for the public inquiry that must follow. I want to recognise the extraordinary courage of the survivors.”
“I thank the Minister for her genuine interest in this matter, which has not been lost on the survivors of Michael Shine. I welcome the announcement from the Minister on appointing Lorcan Staines SC as the independent facilitator for the scoping exercise, as requested by Dignity4Patients on behalf of the survivors of Michael Shine. This is a significant and long-awaited step and it is important we acknowledge how long it has taken to get here. I would also like to acknowledge the exceptional support and advocacy provided to survivors by Adrienne Reilly and all at Dignity4Patients. I also want to acknowledge Deputy Nash, who, as he said, for more years than he cares to remember has stood by the survivors, has advocated and has fought for them every step of the way.”
“I tend to agree with the Minister. A few years ago, Drogheda had the fleadh for two years, during which it brought great short-term benefit to the town. I agree with the Minister that this designation would have to develop over a three- or five-year period in order to have a long-lasting impact on the town. Where I may disagree with the Minister is in terms of the competition among local authorities. I advocate having a pilot programme in a pilot town. Obviously, at the top of that list would be Drogheda, followed by Ardee, County Louth.”
“I thank the Minister. I am delighted to hear he is in favour of such a programme. Drogheda is a cultural powerhouse in the north east. It is home to festivals like the Drogheda Arts Festival, the Drogheda classical musical series and the Lú festival. It provides entertainment for locals but it is also a calling card for people from outside Drogheda and County Louth to visit the town. Like many Irish towns that have strong cultural identities, Drogheda tends to fall between the cracks of existing schemes and therefore sustainable funding models are always in short supply. As the Minister is in favour of a town of culture programme, I know he will be well aware that establishing a town of culture would bring benefits beyond the boundaries of the county.”
“Will the Minister consider establishing and funding a dedicated Irish town of culture programme to support towns such as Drogheda and Ardee with strong cultural identities and significant heritage assets? This would be particularly relevant for Drogheda, which has a rich artistic community and a deep historical footprint.”
“Their childhood memories are mired in darkness as a result of the abuse inflicted on them by the very people who should have had their best interests at heart. They were abused by people who had no regard for their duty of care to these children. They were abused by people who feared no repercussions for their actions. They were abused by people who were possibly admired and respected for how they handled unruly or problematic children or for how they ran their schools. They abused children. Children who were seen but not heard. Children who would not, or could not, dare utter a word of what was happening to them. Children who were not believed. Children abused by monsters. That we, the State, offer an apology is not only right, it is long, long overdue. To those who have suffered, I am sorry.”
“Childhood memories should be nuggets of joy and flashbacks of events evoked by the smells, words or actions of others and of happier times. They should make us laugh and smile when we remember. They should be a guide for us, if or when, we are lucky enough to have own children. They should wrap around us like a cosy duvet on dark miserable days. Some of us can point to a teacher who was inspirational, stern, strict, batty or just simply kind. I remember Mrs. Bell who handed out Silvermints when trying to get us prepared for our first communion or Mrs. McKeown who would take us outside to do our lessons on sunny days. Not all days were great days but they were certainly nowhere near the experiences of these brave people who have shared their stories and experiences of horrid abuses.”
“There is something wrong with that system. We encourage people to contribute, find their own feet and get on with life. Surely, when they stumble in life, we can help pick them up and help them along the way.”
“I thank the Minister of State. I am heartened that he has grasped the seriousness of the situation and by the fact that he is going to raise the urgent need for this to be reviewed. Let us review it and implement it. Let us find a timeline of many months but, rather, weeks or a few months. The Minister of State has grasped the seriousness of the situation, as has the Minister, Deputy Calleary. It is grossly unfair and does not just affect people who are getting the widow's or widower's benefit. It is also arises in the event that somebody is receiving carer's allowance. It is the system itself. We have to grasp this. As the Minister of State said, one partner has paid PRSI and the other person is getting the benefit of that. The second person has paid their own PRSI but cannot get the full benefit of that.”
“When people are hit by very harsh and difficult circumstances, which I hope are temporary, we should not be there to punish them or make their lives and circumstances even harder. We should lift them up and help them along, especially in these moments of crisis. I call for this situation to be reviewed swiftly.”
“My understanding is no review has taken place to date and there is no date to have a review of such practices. I understand the system of one payment, one person but if this was only for widow's benefit one would say it is grossly unfair and surely it could be reviewed. However, this also happens when somebody receives the carer's allowance. These are people who take care of others day in, day out. They receive quite a nominal amount of money yet if they fall ill, they are not entitled to illness benefit. No doubt the Minister of State will tell me in some cases they can be given half of a second payment but that is not enough to pay the bills. That is not enough in this day and age to carry on day by day.”
“This lady was afflicted by a terrible tragedy in her family and was trying to put her best foot forward and build a life for her children but at the same time had to bear her own illness. It was not just that but also the economic devastation this was going to have on her family. A year and half prior to that, she had two incomes coming into the household. A year and a half later, she was not only down the income from her husband, she was also going to be down the income from her husband which was substituted by a widow's benefit and because her employer did not make up her sick pay, she was not even entitled to that illness benefit. This is despite the fact that from the day she left school she paid her PRSI and made her contributions. It is grossly unfair. At the time, I was told the Minister would take a look at reviewing this process.”
“I thank the Ceann Comhairle for selecting this issue because it undoubtedly affects people in Dunleer, Togher, Drogheda and Dundalk and no doubt it also affects people the breadth of Ireland. I came in to the Chamber in October 2025 to talk about a constituency who had come to me having lost her husband a year prior. She was facing having to rear her four children, get back to work, get on with her life and with building a life for her children, only to find herself in a position in which she fell ill. It was cancer and she had to seek treatment. If things were not bad enough, because she was receiving the widow's benefit, she was therefore not entitled to illness benefit. At the time, I said this was clearly wrong. Our system cannot be devised to punish somebody when they are trying to do everything right.”
“Deputy Louise O'Reilly - To discuss a full-time Garda station to serve Rush, Lusk and surrounding areas. The matters raised by Deputies O'Rourke; Ó Murchú; Boyd Barrett, O'Sullivan, Kenny and Murphy; Butterly; and Lawlor have been selected for discussion.”
“Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú - To discuss appropriate accommodation in Louth schools and the Department of Education and Youth's additional accommodation scheme and building unit. Deputy Malcolm Byrne - To discuss the review of the Garda vetting process and planned measures for simplification. Deputy George Lawlor - To discuss supports available to vulnerable children and adults in County Wexford who suffer from a disability. Deputies Richard Boyd Barrett, Pádraig O'Sullivan, Eoghan Kenny and Paul Murphy - To discuss the reduction of SNA numbers at various schools in Cork; to discuss the SNA review and SNA reallocations. Deputy William Aird - To discuss the possibility of the HSE taking in charge a private nursing home (details provided) on a full-time, permanent basis.”
“I wish to advise the House of the following matters in respect of which notice has been given under Standing Order 39 and the name of the Member in each case: Deputy Darren O'Rourke - To discuss the shortage of mainstream school places in Dunshaughlin, County Meath for the 2026-27 school year. Deputy Grace Boland - To discuss the national fare structure for train fares announced by the National Transport Authority in 2025. Deputy Paula Butterly - To discuss the operation of the double payment rule and illness benefit. Deputy Robert O'Donoghue - To discuss the disability action plan targets for additional residential places. Deputy Ruth Coppinger - To discuss calls for the FAI to not play Israel in upcoming Nations League fixtures.”
“Will the Minister of State consider establishing a cross-Border assessment of need scheme, modelled on existing cross-Border dental and surgical treatment pathways, to ensure that children can access timely assessments outside the State when domestic waiting lists are excessive?”
“By elevating remote work to a legal right, the Bill creates a two tier workforce: those who can benefit from the entitlement and those who cannot. Instead of promoting fairness, it amplifies disparities and fosters resentment between groups whose working conditions are already vastly different. Finally, the Bill is not the balanced, forward-thinking legislation it claims to be. It imposes rigid rules on a diverse economy, burdens employers with unnecessary bureaucracy, weakens workplace cohesion and risks widening social and economic divides. Flexibility in work arrangements is indeed important but it must be achieved through co-operation, not compulsion. This Bill gets that balance very much wrong and for that reason, it should be firmly opposed.”
“Every request will be formally assessed, documented, justified and potentially appealed. This is not a trivial process. It diverts time, resources and managerial attention aware from core business activities. For small and medium-sized enterprises, already stretched thin, this becomes yet another layer of bureaucracy that slows decision making and increases operational costs. The Bill effectively treats employers as adversaries rather than partners in shaping flexible work arrangements. Finally, the Bill risks deepening inequality rather than reducing it. Remote work is far more accessible to white-collar professionals than for workers in manufacturing, healthcare, retail, logistics and countless other essential services.”
“This Bill is framed as a progressive step towards modernising employment, yet it is a deeply flawed legislation that risks undermining productivity, weakening organisational cohesion and placing disproportionate burdens on the employer. While the intention behind the Bill may be admirable, its practical consequences are far from beneficial. First, the Bill seeks to erode workplace culture and long-term innovation. Organisations thrive on shared environments where ideas circulate freely. Turning remote work into a legal entitlement shifts the default away from collective spaces and towards isolated, individualised work patterns. That may feel empowering in the short term but it undermines the very fabric that makes companies resilient and dynamic. Second, the administrative burden this Bill imposes on employers is significant.”
“However, I am mindful that maybe at some stage we could give some consideration to those people who have been refused asylum but have a serious illness. Consideration should be given to the progress and medical avenues available to them. We should also always be considerate of those children who come to this State on their own and ensure that their best interests are always placed at the very centre of the discussion.”
“It is extremely reasonable and fair, both to the applicant and the people in the communities who are welcoming these applicants. We should never blur the lines when we talk about immigration. We are an open society. We operate an economy that is multinational and international. We need people with skill sets that, very often, we cannot provide ourselves. We offer a great, rich society to people coming here, but they can offer us even more in return. Not only can they teach us different cultures and ways of thinking, but they also bring skill sets into international companies that have to be respected. We have to learn from them. I broadly welcome this Bill. I thank the Minister, Deputy O’Callaghan, and the Minister of State, Deputy Brophy, for the work they have done. I am not going to criticise it in any shape or form.”
“They know that, when they come here, there will be a defined time to apply and receive a speedy response from the State with regard to their status. It will also allow them to prepare the next steps in their journey if they are not granted asylum. It is also fair to the children, parents and all of these people who are coming here because when they get here, if they are granted asylum, they will know what they can expect from the State. It is fair to people in the communities because they will know how this is being processed, rather than a wilderness in which they do not know who is coming, when and in what kind of numbers. This is a system that is firm, and that is to be accepted. We must have rules in order to have an efficient system.”
“The purpose of this Bill has always been to align and put together a process that is fair to everyone and, above all, to those people who come to the country seeking asylum protection. Without a defined, rules-based process, people are left hanging on the edge, stressed, worried and in doubt. That is not fair. This Bill aims to produce a system that is fair so that, from the outset, they know, even before they come to the shores of this island, what exactly our rules are and what will qualify them to stay here and become part of our society. The word “fair” cannot be repeated enough when we talk about immigrants and asylum seekers. The set of rules that have been introduced are fair. The streamlining and the speeding-up of the process give everybody a sense of where they stand.”
“Before I speak about my approval of this Bill and give my thanks for the work done on it, I wish to make my position on immigration very clear. Having listened to various debates over the last number of days, sometimes it feels, as an outsider looking in, that the lines tend to get a little bit blurred when we talk about immigration and what immigration is. It is important to underline that our position is that immigration is welcome in Ireland. We welcome people of all shapes and sizes and from all corners of the Earth to come to Ireland to be part of our society because what they offer is invaluable. They offer a rich, cultural contribution and we would be very much the poorer were they not here.”
“My understanding is that 17 of the task action points set out for quarter 1 sit with the Minister's Department and nine of those, if not progressed, cannot go any further. Has the Minister already identified any pinch points that could delay this progress and, if so, how are they going to be addressed?”
“I thank the Minister for his comprehensive answer. I want to go back to what he said to Deputy John Connolly in relation to gate 2. I welcome the announcement that it will no longer need ministerial approval. The Minister said it did not add value, but added only time. How much time will this actually save? Is it four weeks, eight weeks or 20 weeks? This is an important point to highlight. Whether there is ministerial approval or not gets lost in translation for the person at home, whereas if we hear a solid number or estimate of the time that will be saved, it will send out a very positive message.”
“I absolutely concur with everything Deputy Callaghan has said. She rightly mentioned that families come in many shapes and forms and different sizes. I am very conscious that we link everything to our blood relatives. The time has come that when we are reviewing all the categories we have to consider those members of our families - because essentially, they can be very much considered as family - and perhaps consider a nominated heir rather than a straightforward A, B, C category and trying to slot them into a particular blood tie or familial relationship. While we are considering those, we consider those who care for us, family friends or whoever it is, and allow the person who has worked so hard to accumulate their house and assets during their lifetime to decide who should be the correct person to inherit those assets and properties.”
“We genuinely do not know but we have to prepare, and we have to be there for our children right from the beginning. As I said before, we cannot let these people get their claws into our children.”
“This committee is very welcome but it cannot be a talking shop. It cannot be a committee that meets a couple of times a year, which goes out and visits a few communities, comes back, puts a report together and puts it on a shelf. This cannot be a data collecting activity which gathers dust. It has to be effective. When we have put agencies like Cúan in place, we have seen how effective they can be and how they reach out to the different organisations. Indeed, Women's Aid Dundalk recently received €6.5 million for new beds. That is hugely welcome. It shows that when there is a committee or an agency with proper oversight, proper powers and proper funding, we can achieve something. In the times we are living in, we are facing so many threats left, right and centre. Today it is AI, tomorrow it is Grok and who know what it will be next week.”
“I was aware that teenagers were being groomed and used but the very idea that these teenagers are now so au fait with the procedures and processes of these criminal activities that they are in a position to get their claws into young children as young as seven years of age is absolutely unacceptable for a society. Like a lot of people, I did not expect to hear that information when I went into those schools. I believe a lot of people would find that difficult to accept, never mind digest, this sort of information. The duty to co-operate will be fundamental to ensure we can make some effective progress in protecting our children. It is absolutely essential. I really welcome the establishment of a committee. However, a committee is only as good as the people on it and the resources and powers given to it.”
“It is about bringing all the Departments and bodies together, including the communities, and getting to the heart of these communities to show these young children who are being used as drug mules or drug dealers. I said it this morning, I said it yesterday and I said it to the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, before Christmas that I was at a conference in Drogheda at which I told the average age of a drug mule is now between seven and ten years of age. The average age of a child to be used as a drug dealer is between ten and 12 years of age. I found that absolutely horrific.”
“That is why in this Bill I am really heartened to see there is going to be a duty to co-operate. I regret that has to be put on a statutory footing and that all of these bodies need to be pressurised and legally put on a statutory footing in order to talk to each other because common sense would say that to combat a problem everybody should be brought to the table. We had that in Drogheda. We had the Drogheda implementation board from 2021 until December 2024 where we saw that first hand. We should see it as a test model for other places. I am a big fan of the Greentown Project in Limerick. It is not about one Department. It is not about one body.”
“It has to be a unified approach. We talk about Tusla and An Garda Síochána. I have to say the gardaí in County Louth have been exceptional. They have had to face criminal organisations over the past number of years, and they have been excellent at bringing these people to justice and achieving convictions. However, we always know that when we lob off the head of a snake another head grows in its place. The pressure is continuous. The pressure on resources is continuous. The gardaí are there to bring these people to justice but they cannot be there 24 hours a day. When I am out and about at events, the gardaí are always there, they are always helping, and they are always listening. However, the biggest complaint I hear is that one hand does not speak to the other hand.”
“They should not be facing these pressures. In a lot of cases these children are coming from homes where there is addiction, where the mother or the grandmother or the absent father is not there to facilitate and help them, to protect them and to give them the guidance and care that they need. We need to step in where this is failing. In Drogheda we have The Red Door Project, which is an excellent service. It helps people with addictions yet it has not got the funding for outreach programmes. We have the wonderful Connect Family Resource Centre in Drogheda and the Redeemer Family Resource Centre in Dundalk, both of which go out into the communities. The communities themselves offer great assistance to many families but they cannot do it alone. I have always said that it needs to go from top to bottom and bottom to top.”
“In broad strokes, I welcome this Bill and the debate in the Chamber on it, be it on childcare places or the Bill itself. Today I want to focus on two points, namely, the duty to co-operate and the establishment of the committee. For the past couple of months, I have had my eyes opened in Drogheda. I normally visit schools on a weekly basis. Most recently, before Christmas, I visited three schools where it was highlighted to me that children of seven years of age were coming in high on drugs - not high on life; high on drugs. Principals pointed out to me the immense pressure they are under trying to keep the children safe and away from their peers - teenagers who are grooming them and turning them into drug mules. Schools are supposed to be areas of safety, which protect the children, lift them up and give them the start of a good life.”
“I believe the Minister needs to work harder and we need to work harder, as does the Attorney General, to find a way to ensure our legal principles remain solid but that our women and men who are subjected to heinous, violent and frankly unforgiveable sexual and violent attacks are never further victimised or harassed by our own judicial system. The presumption of disclosure as proposed by the Minister does not go far enough. Let me be clear - I have said it before and I will say it again – counselling notes have no place in the courtroom.”
“Often they are not even mentioned or relied on by the prosecution. Therefore, it could be argued that it is only a stick to further beat the alleged victim and is of no real evidential value. Indeed, I believe their very existence in a trial is a step backwards and is reminiscent of the days when we could question a woman’s clothing and behaviour to question whether she was asking for it or not, and offering a defence free of charge to an alleged perpetrator. A fair trial has to be fair to all. If the Attorney General believes that there may be issues of unconstitutionality, then he needs to set out the reasons he believes it is unconstitutional.”
“However, I do not believe it is fair. Will the Minister illuminate me? Let me understand how dragging a woman’s reputation through the gutter - that is what we are talking about here - by using her own counselling notes and her innermost thoughts that probably had to be dragged out of her in the first place because of the trauma she was subjected to is fair. How can that be some sort of barrier or tantamount to blocking a fair trial? Can he help me understand how insinuating that a woman as a result of her trauma was somehow a bad mother because she could not hug her children because she felt dirty and, in her words, contaminated could be considered necessary to ensure a fair trial? The manner in which counselling notes are used in criminal trials is not fair in its essence.”
“What in a reasonable person’s mind are they beginning to formulate in their head as an image of the alleged victim? The third question was “How are the intimate relations with your husband?” When it was noted that there were none, that was followed up by a comment to the effect that, nonetheless, she had sought the morning after pill. There is a rhythm or imagery there and a notion of what the victim could potentially be. A picture is being formed for a jury by a defence barrister. I would like to say that this story is an unusual story but it is not. It is a story that has been told again and again with some variations or changes but there is a common theme that runs through all the questioning. It is not legitimate questioning, in my view, but it is open to the defence barrister to put these questions in a way that they see fit.”
“Within her counselling notes, it was noted that the trauma of the incident had left her feeling so defiled and so dirty that the very thought of her children touching her left her in a position whereby for years she could not hug her own children. The second question by the defence barrister was “Do you hug your children?” The Minister will be very familiar with the setting and he can imagine sitting in the chair answering questions. You are nervous, overwhelmed and are being traumatised and the jury is looking on at you. The jury is made up of men and women with everyday values. To be asked if you have ever taken the morning after pill and then whether you ever hug your children, when the answer is limited to “No, I can’t”, what is a jury to think?”
“However, I struggle to understand how the exclusion of counselling notes can threaten these principles. One of the victims set out the whole episode from the moment in which she took the stand and was cross-examined. The first question put to her by the defence barrister was whether she had ever taken the morning after pill. What a question to ask. One would wonder why he was asking this question. However, within her counselling notes, it had been noted that a week after the brutal, vicious rape that she had been subjected to, it dawned on her that she could actually be pregnant, so she went to the chemist and, for the first time in her life, purchased the morning after pill. That was the first question.”
“Their stories recounted how their trauma was compounded by their counselling notes being used against them. Their stories took us right back to the beginning to the actual offence itself, the rape or sexual violence, the detail of it and the number of years they have spent in some cases in counselling. Then there is the fact that not only were those counselling notes used against them, but that the time they lost in having to go over and over that detail from the very beginning retraumatised them, never mind the moment when they had to give evidence in cross-examination. The presumption of innocence and a fair trial are the cornerstones of our legal system and pillars that I wholeheartedly believe in. They should be guarded and protected at all costs.”