Jim Wells
South Down · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. In November 1982, I made my maiden speech in the Chamber, and, here we are, 40 years later, and I am making my last speech in the Chamber as a DUP MLA. I was the last person in the Public Gallery when the Assembly collapsed in 1976.”
“<BR /> <BR />Mr Deputy Speaker, I thank you for your indulgence and for your patience with me over many years. Unfortunately, Mr McGlone has just left the Chamber; I was about to thank him. I have enjoyed my 27 and a half years in this Building.”
“I wish that I could, but I have only five minutes. <BR /> <BR />That was so that a very small number of Irish language zealots could go in and register their marriage or civil partnership in Irish or in dual language: £261,000. Did anybody stop to think about whether there was a more cost-effective way of doing that?”
“We are all perfectly happy with a genuine expression of people's culture. That is fine. However, when the language is so cynically used by militant republicanism, unionism has difficulties. Why, for instance, is there no translation into Irish of the words, "United Kingdom", "Londonderry", "Northern Ireland" or "Her Majesty The Queen"?”
“The Member has made the point for me. The official who came to the Committee made it absolutely clear that £261,000 had been spent already. It was farcical to bring that before either the Finance Committee or the Assembly, because the money had been spent and the processes had been set up.”
“If they want the unionist community to accept the Irish language as a genuine cultural expression, they should get rid of the political baggage and extremism, and stop using the Irish language as a political weapon to try to subjugate unionism.”
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“<BR /> <BR />Mr Deputy Speaker, I thank you for your indulgence and for your patience with me over many years. Unfortunately, Mr McGlone has just left the Chamber; I was about to thank him. I have enjoyed my 27 and a half years in this Building. It will be a very difficult transition for me to move on to other things, but I am grateful that you have allowed me to make a totally bogus point of order just to record my appreciation for your support.”
“On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. In November 1982, I made my maiden speech in the Chamber, and, here we are, 40 years later, and I am making my last speech in the Chamber as a DUP MLA. I was the last person in the Public Gallery when the Assembly collapsed in 1976. I was the last person to speak in the Assembly before it collapsed in 1986. I was the last person in the Building before it burned down in 1995, and I was the last person to speak in one of the debates when the Assembly collapsed in the 2000s. When I was making that point in the Assembly one day, Danny Kennedy stood up and asked, "Could the honourable Member reassure me that he was not the last passenger on the Titanic?", because, every time I speak last, this place seems to be doomed.”
“If they want the unionist community to accept the Irish language as a genuine cultural expression, they should get rid of the political baggage and extremism, and stop using the Irish language as a political weapon to try to subjugate unionism. Only when that happens, and only when the Irish language fraternity totally disassociates itself from militant republicanism, will unionists accept the Irish language as a genuine cultural expression.”
“If I knew what the honourable Member was saying.”
“We are all perfectly happy with a genuine expression of people's culture. That is fine. However, when the language is so cynically used by militant republicanism, unionism has difficulties. Why, for instance, is there no translation into Irish of the words, "United Kingdom", "Londonderry", "Northern Ireland" or "Her Majesty The Queen"? Why oh why, however, are there Irish translations of the "occupied Six Counties", "the North" and the "British state"? It is because the language is being abused.”
“The Members on this side of the House have to ask themselves why the unionist community is so suspicious of the Irish language. Why do we have a problem with the Irish language?”
“The Member has made the point for me. The official who came to the Committee made it absolutely clear that £261,000 had been spent already. It was farcical to bring that before either the Finance Committee or the Assembly, because the money had been spent and the processes had been set up. If we are going to have any meaningful scrutiny role in the Assembly, we cannot have a situation where we are handed a done deal on a plate and told, "We've spent the money. You have to accept it."”
“Today, we attended an event here about the need for cancer nurses. There is a need for 100 extra cancer nurses.”
“I wish that I could, but I have only five minutes. <BR /> <BR />That was so that a very small number of Irish language zealots could go in and register their marriage or civil partnership in Irish or in dual language: £261,000. Did anybody stop to think about whether there was a more cost-effective way of doing that? Would it not have been cheaper to hire a member of staff to come in once a month to manually type out the certificates for the tiny number of people who wanted that to happen. £261,000. Was there any form of procurement or tender exercise? Or was the company — we all know which company it is — just told, "Think of a figure, go in there and spend whatever you like to produce that particular change in registration"? It just does not bear sense. As the honourable Member for North Antrim said, that is the price of eight nurses.”
“A senior civil servant dipped into New Decade, New Approach and produced a rabbit out of the hat to assuage nationalism. Meanwhile, many of the demands of unionism in that balanced package have been totally ignored. <BR /> <BR />The other issue that has not been addressed this afternoon is the expenditure of £261,000 —”
“The honourable Member will have a long wait.”
“We do not have the extra police. Where are the efforts to address the educational underachievement of Protestant working-class communities in Northern Ireland? Yet an official from the Department of Finance took it upon herself to dip into that agreement and pull out a cherry for republicans called the "Marriage, Civil Partnership and" —.”
“No, I have been very generous, and I do not particularly like the honourable Member, so no thanks.”
“Is that why 99·3% of those who attend Irish-medium schools are from the nationalist community? That is how cross-community that is.”
“Where are the extra PSNI officers that were promised as part of that deal?”
“There has been much reference to the 'New Decade, New Approach' document, which was signed over two years ago. What unionists note is that various Departments are dipping into the 50-odd recommendations, picking out those that are obviously cherished by nationalists, implementing them and quietly forgetting the recommendations —.”
“The Minister's decision to distribute money to the Department for Communities for an increment to social welfare payments in March is welcome. If he has a resource surplus, as it were, a quick way to get rid of that would be to add a further enhancement to those March payments, which could be paid in this financial year. <BR /> <BR />Secondly, the Bryson charitable money has been a lottery. I think that every MLA has had a lot of complaints from people about the system, about not being able to access the portal and about arbitrary decisions being made. Surely he could take the money that has been allocated to Bryson and add it to the increment to the £200 grant in March.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Surely, with the leave of the House, we can extend the business to 9.30 pm. That seems logical because everybody has had their point of view and Mr Swann is ready to go. I do not think that anyone would object to staying here until 9.30 pm to hear him complete his speech.”
“I asked the Member to give way on the petition of concern on the vaccine passport issue. Quite simply, a petition of concern can be tabled only if it has at least 30 Members' signatures. The reality was that, by Saturday night, it became apparent that the maximum number of signatures that could be obtained was 29. Therefore, people were ringing me and asking, "How do we get to 30?", and I suggested names of people who could be approached.”
“You could have fooled me. I have listened to you speak here for a couple of years, and you are certainly full of confidence. You may feel that you have an impediment, but no one notices.”
“We are here for a minimum of two years each — in my case, it has been 27 years — and it is time that we learned to stand up and have a rational debate, to take points and to argue what is a very complex issue.”
“From that, I have heard from an amazing number of people throughout Northern Ireland — even today, two have emailed me, saying, "That is where I stand, and I was scared to say it, because I thought that no one else had the same view as me, but you stand for my point of view" — who want to be with me in the queue for that vaccine when it becomes available. The sooner, the better. <BR /> <BR />I will not labour the point, Mr Speaker, but, as you are in power in your seat, or on your throne, as it were, I will say that, when it comes to a deeply moral and difficult and complex issue such as this, the days of standing up and reading a tightly typed script into the record and handing it to your local paper are over.”
“It is a deeply personal decision, but it is worth saying that, when I dared to go on the radio in July, having not put out a press release and having not tried to broadcast the fact, a certain radio journalist whom I will not name but who is on at 9.00 am on Radio Ulster and is paid a fabulous salary casually asked me whether I had been vaccinated. I said no and explained why.”
“I will not criticise anybody who has looked at the facts and has said that, morally, they feel that they can have a vaccine. Everyone has to make their own judgement on such a decision, and I will not judge. <BR /> <BR />Many party members in the Chamber have taken a different view. They are perfectly entitled to that view, and I will not criticise them. However, some of them have said that they did not know the facts before they took the vaccine. Therefore, I am not shining my halo and being holier than thou. That is totally wrong.”
“That is an important issue. I would be minded, if needs be, to hop on a plane somewhere just to get this issue off my back. People have been critical of me, but I hope that people will at least understand that it is based on a sound understanding of the science and a strong moral objection to anything connected with the abortion industry. <BR /> <BR />Tomorrow, we will discuss those with severe fetal disabilities, and we wish to protect them. Sadly, in sworn testimony to a United States Congress session in 2018, a leading scientist admitted that 76 fetuses had been aborted at three months in order to produce vaccines in the United States. Three months old. A child of three months is very well developed. I think that it is very sad that that has happened, and I want absolutely nothing to do with that. However, I will not be judgemental.”
“Even though they were not invited, they have distanced themselves from it because they think that it is an anti-vaccine campaign. It is not. It is a pro-vaccine campaign. It wants to increase the number of people who are vaccinated, but I suspect that the problem that we have in the United Kingdom is that the National Health Service in England has signed massive contracts with the three providers, which may be very reluctant to allow even small doses of alternative vaccines into the United Kingdom. They may see that as a breach of contract. <BR /> <BR />I would like confirmation from the Department about a situation where, if someone goes to the Continent and receives what they perceive to be an ethical vaccine, when they come back, they will be treated exactly the same as someone who has had AstraZeneca, Moderna or Pfizer.”
“I have to say, however, that, at the time that vaccination was brought in, we were told that an 85% rate would effectively bring herd immunity and wipe out coronavirus. Sadly, that is not the case. Sadly, infection rates are still sky high in Northern Ireland, and we have to accept, unfortunately, that the effects of these vaccines wane over time. Indeed, some of the manufacturers are saying that the impact of the vaccination dissipates after three months, and some are saying that that happens after six months. That is why, of course, we need a booster campaign. <BR /> <BR />Therefore, I am saying that I hope that the meeting goes well on Thursday and that we can solve this problem. Of course, some people have misunderstood the purpose of the meeting and have tried to distance themselves from it immediately.”
“We have talked about the 9% who have made that decision. Some of them have made an ethical decision, as I have done. Some have made a scientific decision. You could argue about whether they are right or wrong. Some have read about the side effects of vaccination, and some have heard stories, some of which are true and some of which are very dubious. I suspect that there are a lot of people who just have not bothered to be vaccinated, particularly younger people. I think that anything that engenders confidence in the vaccination programme has to be a good thing. As the Minister has confirmed, 91% of adults in Northern Ireland have been vaccinated. That is an astonishing performance. There is no other word for it because I remember Patricia Donnelly saying that they were aiming for 80% to 85%, and they now have 90%.”
“I would want to be at the door of the vaccine clinic on the day that a vaccine is available in Northern Ireland that I can take, and, what is more, if it would help things, I would make a song and dance about it to encourage others to do so.”
“I have heard some of the most extraordinary stories and read some of what has been stated on the internet. Some of it is absolutely fanciful.”
“For instance, if someone was vaccinated in Egypt or Hungary and came to live or work in England, their vaccine would be recognised as far as vaccine passports etc are concerned. I have asked the Minister this question: will he extend to Northern Ireland the recognition of WHO vaccines that has been implemented in England? He knows where I am going with that. If he does extend that recognition, someone who had taken one of those vaccines would be on exactly the same footing in Northern Ireland as someone who had taken the AstraZeneca, Moderna or Pfizer vaccines. That would also mean that several thousand people who have a deeply difficult moral issue with the three vaccines that are available could get vaccinated and not be regarded as second-class citizens. <BR /> <BR />I am not anti-vaccine.”
“<BR /> <BR />There have been developments that could assist the Department in that respect. The first development is that — the vaccines, by the way, are quite hard to pronounce — Sinopharm and Covaxin, which contain none of the problems that I have with the others, are being used in scores of countries throughout the world. Recently, they were recognised by the World Health Organization, which is important. The overarching body for health across all of the world has said that those vaccines work and have been clinically trialled and that it is content that they are a major step forward in protecting the community against coronavirus. <BR /> <BR />The second major development is that National Health Service England has said that it will recognise any vaccine that is on the WHO's list of approved vaccines.”
“<BR /> <BR />There is a solution to my dilemma and that held by a small number of people. I am not going to say that it affects thousands— it may be a few thousand — but there is absolutely no doubt that a small number of people in Northern Ireland find the situation difficult. They tend to be from the devout Roman Catholic community and the evangelical Protestant community. That is why I welcome the opportunity on Thursday to meet Dr Chada, who is the Deputy Chief Medical Officer of Northern Ireland. I will suggest to him is that there is a solution to the problem, namely the vaccines that are available in Europe that have not been tested on the cell lines of aborted children. All I am asking is that those vaccines be made available in Northern Ireland.”
“What I am saying, and this has been backed up by leading academics, even those who work for Mr Swann, is that the three vaccines that are available in Northern Ireland — Moderna, AstraZeneca and Pfizer — have all been tested on the cell lines of an aborted fetus; a young Dutch girl who was aborted in the 1970s. That is a fact. Morally, I have spent all of my adult life campaigning against the evils of abortion. This is a personal decision for me, and it is not one that I would try to impose on anybody, but I am not under any circumstances going to benefit in any way from anything connected to the abortion industry. I am sorry. That is my view, and I am sticking to it. It is a view that I have stuck to throughout the past 12 months during which we have had vaccinations.”
“As I said, some of what I will say is controversial. As far as I am aware, I am one of only two Members of the House who is not vaccinated. That does not make me irresponsible, it does not make me a second-class citizen and it does not make me someone who should be discriminated against or shunned in public. Like a significant number of people in Northern Ireland — 9% — I have taken the decision not to be vaccinated. My decision on that is because all of the three vaccines that are available in Northern Ireland have been tested on the cell lines of an aborted fetus. When I made that point to the Department, it came back to me and said, "That is wrong, Mr Wells. None of our vaccines contain the cells of an aborted fetus". That is true: they do not. It was never claimed that they contained the cells of an aborted fetus.”
“I welcome that. Many are concerned that the regulations will take on a life of their own and will expand and increase in intensity; that they will become like a juggernaut; and that we will not be able to bring them under control. I am pleased about that, and that has reassured me.”
“That is an extremely helpful intervention by the Minister. However, does that mean that, on 23 March, if he wishes to continue vaccine passports or "certification", as he calls it, he has to come back to the House with fresh legislation that has to be voted for by Members?”
“It would reassure an awful lot of people — MLAs and members of the public — if, during his summation at the end of the debate, he could suggest a —.”
“To be fair, I was disappointed that my old friend Mr Frew, one of the most experienced and able debaters in the House, chose not to take interventions. He used the point that he was ambushed early on by Mrs Mallon and turned down her intervention and, therefore, turned down even friendly-fire interventions like mine. That is disappointing. <BR /> <BR />What I will say will be controversial, and, unlike other Members, I am not scared, when an intervention comes, to sit down and take the flak. The Minister has been listening, and he is not scared to take interventions. I want to forewarn him of a point that I will raise in my speech, so that he can give some thought to it. The one phrase that has not been used in this evening's debate is "sunset clause".”
“This is one of those debates where the eyes of the country are on us. Many will be watching, and they will be disappointed that so many Members stood up with typewritten text, got their heads down and read. It was interesting that perhaps the youngest Member of the House, Mrs Erskine, did not do that. She took interventions and is to be applauded for that. However, I was disappointed that other, experienced MLAs could not take a point of information or an intervention on an issue that requires mature debate in the House. <BR /> <BR />I am particularly disappointed that the Chair of the Health Committee, who is an experienced campaigner in the House, did not have the confidence in his arguments to take an intervention.”
“The Member will know that I am one of the 9%; I am not vaccinated. I have made it clear why I am not vaccinated. On Thursday, I am meeting Dr Chada, who is a deputy chief medical officer, with a deputation to offer a solution to the problem for some people who cannot take the vaccines that are presently offered in Northern Ireland. One of the difficulties is that we have signed up to three major suppliers: Moderna, AstraZeneca and Pfizer. If a wider range of vaccines were available, it would solve the problem for a significant proportion of the 9%.”
“<BR /> <BR />One thing that I will ask when the Bill comes to Committee is whether it is possible to have a threshold, an exceptional circumstances clause or a special provision that would allow businesses that have been totally or to a large extent wiped out by coronavirus to appeal. I understand the difficulties that that could cause. How do you define what is "exceptional"? Where do you set the threshold? How do you stop people clogging up the system with bogus appeals that have no merit but will still have to be heard? I want to examine that to see if that is possible for the businesses that have been particularly badly affected. <BR /> <BR />Apart from that, it has been a good debate. Sense has prevailed. There has been agreement on the way forward. Therefore, there is no merit in pushing the Second Reading to a Division.”
“<BR /> <BR />To help speed things up, I know exactly where the Minister is coming from on the Bill. Everyone understands the dilemma that he and LPS find themselves in. No reasonable person would want to open the floodgates. I suppose that, basically, every business in Northern Ireland would claim that their business and income had been affected by coronavirus. I cannot think of any business that would not say that, apart from, maybe, some of the multinational supermarkets or the off-licences. Very few businesses would not argue that the coronavirus has had a devastating impact on them, so I understand the dilemma.”
“That is a more than reasonable request, but it is also incumbent on the Committee to get its skates on. I tend to be one of the more long-winded and verbose members of the Committee for Finance, and therefore I will have to exercise some self-discipline to ensure that we get the Bill through as quickly as possible. <BR /> <BR />In his opening remarks, the Minister stated that he had provided the chronology. He has slightly missed the point that, had he been able to come before us on 17 November, we would not only have had that chronology but could have teased out how we ended up in this position. It is one thing having a piece of paper; it is another having the opportunity to quiz the Minister and his officials on it. That said, we now have an opportunity to deal with all those issues.”
“I welcome the tone of the debate. It is clear that the Minister has taken on board the Committee's concerns about accelerated passage and the sweeping nature of the Bill. At the outset, I say that I will not oppose the movement of the Bill to the Committee Stage. Any problems that we have with the Bill can be teased out in Committee. Now that we have been allowed that opportunity, I see no merit in opposing the substance of the Bill, whilst, of course, preserving my position — I am sure that many others feel the same — that I reserve the right to raise concerns about the substantive nature of the Bill in Committee. <BR /> <BR />I commend the Chair for the commitment that he has given to the House. I think that he has the full support of the Committee that we will do everything that we can to meet the statutory 30-day deadline.”
“I urge the entire House to unite behind not setting a dangerous precedent that could be used time and again to neuter the role of the Assembly.”
“I accept the Minister's point that almost every business in Northern Ireland can say that its rateable value has fallen as a result of coronavirus. That is a valid point, and I also see his point that, if we open the floodgates, there could be thousands, or tens of thousands, of applications for a reduction in rateable value. To some extent, however, the Minister could be throwing the baby out with the bathwater by not dealing with the small percentage — it is a very small percentage of businesses — that have been absolutely hammered, and, frankly, their rateable value is practically nil at the moment because of what has happened to them. <BR /> <BR />Therefore, I will vote against accelerated passage. I welcome the fact that other Members, having read the material that was sent to them over the weekend, will agree with me.”
“Over those 27 years, I have never had a situation in which a Minister responded to a letter from a Committee before it had been sent. That is exactly what happened this time. The Minister's staff, or maybe it was the Minister, were watching the Committee meeting and taking down the points one by one, and, before our excellent Committee Clerk had even had a chance to put pen to paper, there was a response to points that we had not yet raised. <BR /> <BR />I noticed that the Minister tried to head me off at the pass by referring to the issue of travel agents. There may be those who have been so badly affected by coronavirus that special exemption can be made for them without opening the floodgates to thousands of businesses.”
“I will vote against accelerated passage, and it looks as though the majority of MLAs will do so as well. <BR /> <BR />Let us move on to another reason why accelerated passage is not appropriate. Some businesses have been very badly affected by coronavirus. I see what the Department is getting at. It does not want a vast number of appeals to be made on the basis of coronavirus. There are, however, businesses that have been affected by coronavirus to such a level that they have almost been wiped out. I cited the example of travel agents, who have had the most wretched time over the last 19 months. Their losses have been on a totally different scale from those of so many other businesses. <BR /> <BR />I made the point at the Committee. As I say, I have been here for only 27 years, so I am a new boy.”
“Had he appeared, we would have been asking for the crucial information, the chronology: what did he know, and when did he know it? Those of you who are bit older will remember the famous phrase used at the Watergate inquiry. When did the Minister first become aware of the need for this legislation, and why did he not act sooner? Why are we being left in a situation, at the end of November, rushing through legislation, the need for which must have been apparent to him and his staff many months ago? Again, because he could not come to the Committee, and because it is possible that we will be denied scrutiny of this legislation, we might never know. However, we want to know exactly what is going on. That was the issue of how the Bill is being dealt with.”