Leslie Cree
North Down · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I also thank the Minister for her very full paper this afternoon. I was going to ask about cost, but that has been covered. Obviously, from the point of view of using signing and having available an Irish version and a British version, there could be complications.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Budget also anticipates 30 projects being taken forward that will involve cross-cutting reform and provide overarching governance. Can the Minister elaborate on that work and advise what savings are expected in the Budget year against the cost of £4·5 million?”
“<BR /> <BR />I will illustrate some more points about the current Budget. We know that, under the Budget exchange scheme, there are limits to what can be carried forward from the current year. Is it still 0·6% for resource DEL and 1·5% for capital DEL?”
“Again, I ask the Minister whether he can confirm that that is correct. <BR /> <BR />Finally, we need to be more definite about which projects we fund in the Budget. They need to be clear and time-bound. Some of the strategies that the Executive decided upon in 2007 have not yet been finalised.”
“The fact that spend is usually lower than anticipated has meant that overcommitment has been a feature until this current year. That is not good enough and would not be countenanced by the private sector.”
“We often hear Members complaining that those who query a Budget should suggest where any additional moneys should come from to fund other activities. That approach is greatly flawed and is an oversimplification of the matter. The issue is much more basic: a different approach is required.”
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“I thank the Minister for her statement. Both bodies are treated alike, in the sense that we expect social inclusion, the creation of jobs, tourism initiatives and economic returns. Will you flesh that out a wee bit for us?”
“I am just wondering about tours, for example, where it would probably be over the top to have two, with one obviously having to be more dominant. How similar are the sign languages?”
“I also thank the Minister for her very full paper this afternoon. I was going to ask about cost, but that has been covered. Obviously, from the point of view of using signing and having available an Irish version and a British version, there could be complications.”
“Is the Minister surprised that the DUP is interested in promoting pigeon clubs when they voted recently against rates relief for community and amateur sports clubs?”
“Again, I ask the Minister whether he can confirm that that is correct. <BR /> <BR />Finally, we need to be more definite about which projects we fund in the Budget. They need to be clear and time-bound. Some of the strategies that the Executive decided upon in 2007 have not yet been finalised. There are also examples of many projects that were not carried forward at all and where funds were switched to alternative projects that may have been a Minister's choice or a pet subject under the £1 million rule. It is also interesting that the requirement to seek approval from the Department of Finance and Personnel under that rule will be suspended for the June monitoring round, for the benefit of the new Ministers. I appreciate that the Minister may not have all the information at hand, but I would appreciate his input.”
“<BR /> <BR />I will illustrate some more points about the current Budget. We know that, under the Budget exchange scheme, there are limits to what can be carried forward from the current year. Is it still 0·6% for resource DEL and 1·5% for capital DEL? How much will that be, or do we have to wait for the provisional out-turn figures, which may not be known until June, three months into the Budget year? Or, even more difficult, do we have to wait for the final out-turn stage, which may not be known until January 2017, before we know what our baseline really was for 2016-17? <BR /> <BR />Barnett consequentials that accrue from the Treasury provide a useful addition to resource and capital DEL. They are not known until late in the year and appear to be treated like a bonus, and they are not built into the Budget figures.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Budget also anticipates 30 projects being taken forward that will involve cross-cutting reform and provide overarching governance. Can the Minister elaborate on that work and advise what savings are expected in the Budget year against the cost of £4·5 million? <BR /> <BR />The Minister is well aware of my opinion that the Budget process needs to be reformed and made more accountable. The Fresh Start Agreement sets out several changes that will have a dramatic effect on Budgets going forward. Mr Attwood has already touched on this. My information is that it will be debated in the House of Commons next Monday, but, if Mr Attwood is correct, it may even have started. Therefore, now is the time to review the whole process. An independent fiscal council will be established and will play a leading role in the future.”
“We have just completed four tranches of the voluntary exit scheme, and a further tranche is likely in the new year. I understand that the Executive have agreed a comprehensive programme of public-sector reform arising out of the VES. Can the Minister provide assurance that that work is completed, or is at least at an advanced stage, so that the Northern Ireland Civil Service will be able to operate at peak efficiency? The Department of Finance has a duty to support the other Departments to meet their staffing requirements through effective workforce planning. Is the Minister satisfied that, despite the loss of experience through the VES, the Civil Service will continue to provide high-quality, effective services to the wider public sector?”
“Again, that is not likely, and the figure was reduced in the November monitoring round. With six weeks to go to the financial year end, how much of the £50 million that was budgeted will be achieved? How did we get it so wrong? <BR /> <BR />A common complaint is that the Executive and the various Departments fail to consider additional revenue-raising measures to complement the Budget. Was that considered as part of the Budget development, and, if not, why not?”
“The fact that spend is usually lower than anticipated has meant that overcommitment has been a feature until this current year. That is not good enough and would not be countenanced by the private sector. <BR /> <BR />Turning now to the Budget, under the Fresh Start Agreement, £10 million has been set aside for tackling paramilitary activity. I believe that the Department of Justice will carry out that work, but there is no strategy on what is to be done. It could be the summer before that work is completed, so half the year could be over before any of the money is spent. I will ask this question: will it be expended within the Budget year at all? <BR /> <BR />I asked before about the work of the asset management unit. Some £50 million was anticipated during the current year.”
“We often hear Members complaining that those who query a Budget should suggest where any additional moneys should come from to fund other activities. That approach is greatly flawed and is an oversimplification of the matter. The issue is much more basic: a different approach is required. The Budget priorities need to be decided clearly at the start of the process. Once that has been done, a phased Budget would be constructed with key performance indicators agreed by all Departments. <BR /> <BR />Up to this year, our budgeting has been erratic, with many in-year allocations, projects not started and essential priorities not achieved. For example, there is a social fund of £80 million, and only some £1·5 million has been delivered to those in need.”
“Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I was pleased to support this in Committee, and I am pleased to support it in the House this evening.”
“The Minister will be aware that spectator space is currently rated, but certain sports clubs appear to enjoy rates relief despite the fact that they are licensed. Is that correct?”
“The Committee's findings identify the need to have professional arts practitioners going into communities to engage directly with groups and individuals. That is labour- and resource-intensive and must be funded over a reasonable period to allow it to be embedded and for a worthwhile legacy to be achieved. There is also a need to provide recognisable careers in those sectors, which in turn would assist the creative industries. <BR /> <BR />Whilst the Committee has produced a good report, it is not the end of the matter. More work will be necessary to improve culture and arts in Northern Ireland. It is a continuing process. I close by paying credit to the Committee staff for their excellent work in producing the report, which I commend to the House.”
“It is also spread across Northern Ireland in rural and urban areas. There is a need for a coordinated and overarching approach to the arts and culture, and that must come from the Executive.”
“However, there is no shortage of arts and cultural activity going on, and it is often first class.”
“That sums it up pretty well. <BR /> <BR />It has to be said that all the existing bodies involved in arts and culture perform well, but everyone accepts that an overall strategy is necessary at Executive level to cater for the arts and culture going forward. That strategy needs to be thoroughly rural-proofed and adequately resourced to ensure that disadvantaged rural communities are able to participate fully. Disability is also a major issue. <BR /> <BR />There are 22 recommendations in the Committee's report and I commend them fully to the House. There are a number of barriers — they have been referred to — to working-class communities being included in the arts. Those include economic and financial barriers, educational barriers, awareness and information, and community, cultural or psychological barriers.”
“In October 2013, the Committee agreed to conduct an inquiry into the inclusion in the arts of working-class communities. That followed on from the Committee's inquiry into maximising the potential of the creative industries. Disadvantage was of particular concern. Much evidence was taken from a wide range of stakeholders over a considerable period. In 2015, the Committee agreed to include the rural development programme with respect to how the arts and culture can be supported in rural communities. Targeted visits and focus groups were also used to understand the nature of the problems and the relationship between poverty and the arts. The Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure, during her briefing, fully supported the value of the arts. She stated:”
“<BR /> <BR />The Committee's scrutiny is an excellent example of how a Department has worked with a Statutory Committee to improve legislation. I record my thanks to the Committee staff and the departmental officials for the excellent way in which differences of opinion were resolved. On behalf of the Ulster Unionist Party, let me say that we will support the Final Stage of the Bill.”
“I am pleased to be able to speak at the Final Stage of the Legal Complaints and Regulation Bill. Much of what is pertinent has been said. This is not a root-and-branch reform, but it will bring significant change to the system and establish the new position of the Legal Services Oversight Commissioner. <BR /> <BR />The Committee took evidence from interested stakeholders and published its report on the Bill last December. As I said at Consideration Stage, the Committee's detailed scrutiny resulted in a range of issues being raised with the Department for clarification and improvement. Satisfactory amendments were made that improved and, indeed, strengthened the Bill. One such amendment, which has been referred to, was that on the discovery of information on first-tier complaints. I believe that that is very necessary.”
“I think that I trotted this one out about a month ago: the fiscal deficit is £9·2 billion. It says here that taxes generated in Northern Ireland are considerably less than that. I do not know whether it is fair to ask the Minister whether we have any idea of how close it is to that, but my feeling is that it is light years away from £9·2 billion. I will leave it at that.”
“<BR /> <BR />Air passenger duty (APD) is certainly a punitive tax. It started off as a green tax, but that is no longer the case. Several countries in Europe have just scrubbed APD because it worked directly against their interests. I certainly support that idea. <BR /> <BR />This evening, again, we have had the call to look at the devolution of further taxes. I hear that every so often, but in the Budget report we have a reference to the taxes that are generated in Northern Ireland and how they weigh against what comes from the Westminster Treasury.”
“<BR /> <BR />Much hope appears to be placed on the June monitoring round to make easement changes and redistribute resources. June is a long way off, but I ask the Minister what assurance he has, if any, that significant resources will be there as a result of the year-end movements, Barnett consequentials and underspends. <BR /> <BR />To finish, corporation tax has been touched on. Indeed, it was touched on last night as well. I remember speaking about it a month ago. It is very important that we publicise that availability because, as the Minister said last night, there is a gestation period for new businesses setting up and moving on to another country, so we need to get that message out now. I see some reference to the promotion of corporation tax. Maybe that sort of promotion is included in that, but we need to do that.”
“How much resource has been released from the sale of assets, and how will these have been dealt with in the Budget? <BR /> <BR />I have to say that I am pleased to see that manufacturing rates will continue to apply a 30% liability for the next year. If we are serious about developing the economy, we need to support our manufacturers in a tangible way. It is also important to extend the small business rate relief scheme, the empty shops concession and the rural ATM exemptions for a further period. However, there are still issues with the recent non-domestic rate review. Is the Minister in a position to update us on the current situation? I know that, for many, there is concern from businesses and indeed clubs right across the Province. The Chair referred to that as well.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Stormont House Agreement has provided for up to £350 million of additional borrowing to support important capital investment projects. Again, for clarification, will the Minister confirm that the first £100 million was used in the year 2015-16? What is envisaged for the £100 million in 2016-17? It would be interesting to know whether there is a strategy in place to cover that additional borrowing. <BR /> <BR />I will turn to European funds. I know that we can expect income from the various European programmes which are at closure stage. Do we know how much that is likely to be, and is the sum included in the Budget detail? If not, is it available for allocation? The change fund figure is reduced to £7·1 million and includes £1·5 million for estate rationalisation.”
“<BR /> <BR />We are told that the 2016-17 Budget is predicated on the full drawdown of available reinvestment and reform initiative (RRI) borrowing. I understand the logic of capital projects which support economic growth, but in the same paragraph of the Budget, reference is made to the Executive's considering mechanisms for capping RRI borrowing. I am just wondering whether the Minister can develop that thinking so that the apparent contradiction may be explained. There is a figure of £8 million to be held centrally for distribution as a result of the joint investment with Atlantic Philanthropies. In 2014, £58 million was agreed. Can the Minister advise what balance of the fund is as yet unspent?”
“I hope that I can get a few laughs tonight, but I am not so sure. Again, I am pleased to be able to speak on the Second Stage of the Budget Bill. It is funny; we all seem to set off by putting out the main parameters. I noticed that the Minister did it and the Chair did it, and I see that I am doing it now as well. I will stick to convention. <BR /> <BR />The Bill covers the 2015-16 financial year and provides legal authority to spend for the early part of 2016-17. The Main Estimates will not be considered until June, but it remains crucial that Committees continue to monitor the spending of their respective Departments so that underspends are minimised and the return of funds to the Treasury is avoided.”
“At this stage, everything has been said. I was pleased to be able to help Mr McCrea with his knowledge of things in the west. He certainly needs to get out more, but, again, I will help any time that I can. <BR /> <BR />This is a good example of where democracy works. There are problems with accelerated passage, but I think that we have demonstrated that democracy, despite what some people may think, is still alive and well in the House. The Chairman covered all of the points in depth. It has been a good example of where a Committee has worked with the Department and produced a good result from both ends. I hope that that will continue. We are happy to support the Bill, as amended. Again, I thank the Minister for the undertaking that he has given us this afternoon.”
“They are competed at club level; regional level, with the nine counties of Ulster being divided into 11 geographical regions; and nationally across the whole of the nine countries of Ulster. In addition, the King George V Challenge Cup is competed for by members across the whole of Ireland. That is why Mr Swann has been working with the excellent Northern Ireland Pigeon Association at a Northern Ireland level and through the Royal Pigeon Racing Association at a UK level to have pigeon racing designated as a sport. The Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure has been in support of that. <BR /> <BR />I will conclude by urging Members to support amendment No 2.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. Clearly, we are where we are. Mr Swann raised the issue at Second Stage. Not a lot of consultation was carried out. That does not make it right that these people should be overlooked. As I said at the start of my presentation, that has to be addressed sooner rather than later. <BR /> <BR />Getting back to the gangs issue, we would draw similarities in a lot of respects to boxing clubs in Northern Ireland. Again, many Members here will have experience of the good work that they have done in breaking down these sorts of barriers. <BR /> <BR />Although it is not strictly required in the definition, pigeon races can be and are competed locally, regionally, nationally and internationally.”
“I will if the Member is short and to the point.”
“Trials in America using pigeon racing as a means of breaking down gang culture in inner cities have proved very successful; something that we could all learn from here. We would draw similarities —”
“Nowhere is this more evident than in the annual charity pigeon shows in Dublin, Lisburn and Blackpool, where pigeon men and women in their thousands gather together, as it says here — I was going to say flock together — to meet friends and colleagues to compare experiences and simply enjoy one another's company once again. The opportunity to put something back into society through the millions of pounds given in charitable donations is something that all pigeon men and women can rightly be proud of. Pigeon clubs are also an excellent source of education for younger members. They learn discipline; respect for their fellow members, especially the older members; and a sense of fairness and honesty.”
“I have to say that it is not just the actual pigeon racing: you have to feed the birds and clean them out every day. Indeed, there is a lot of toing and froing. I am no expert on pigeon racing, but my father kept pigeons. He, in fact, had us doing a lot of the work. Not only was he doing sufficient recreation, working at them every day, but he had us doing it as well. It is one of those things that perhaps you do not fully understand unless you are involved in it directly. There is all that ongoing treatment; looking after the birds, doing small runs, taking them out, letting them free and hoping that they come back. There is quite a lot of work in it. <BR /> <BR />Moving back — I am almost finished — I was talking about the mix of people and the social interaction.”
“Thank you very much for the question. It is an interesting one.”
“<BR /> <BR />Turning now to "forming social relationships", I will say that that is a lot of what pigeon racing is about. Pigeon racing was breaking down political, religious and class barriers long before anything or anyone else. In what other sport can you compete against the pensioner next door and the Queen of England on the same day? Pigeon clubs provide the only social contact for some older pigeon men and women and an opportunity to meet friends on a weekly basis. Given that the majority of pigeon men and women are over 60 years of age, such social contact is, we argue, essential for their physical and mental well-being.”
“How can it be argued that the 25 to 30 hours per week of physical activity that is undertaken by pigeon men and women ranging in age from 10 to 90-plus do not improve physical fitness? It can and will be shown that the amount of physical activity undertaken by the pigeon man or woman as part of one pigeon race is greater than the combined activity of more than 10 athletes at an athletic meeting. How many 80-year-olds actively compete in athletic events? <BR /> <BR />Where "mental well-being" is concerned, it can be shown that pigeon men and women need to have significant mental capabilities to participate in the sport. Striving to be the best requires mental toughness, the ability to deal with stress and excellent memory capacity.”
“It cannot be denied that pigeon racing is organised through the Royal Pigeon Racing Association, the Irish Homing Union, Northern Ireland Provincial Amalgamation, Ulster Federation and East Down Combine. The rules and regulations in place, especially for dispute resolution and anti-doping, leave many sports trailing in their wake. The definition also states that "sport" means all forms of physical activities that:”
“It is that definition that is recognised in law, and that is crucial to the argument. For the purpose of the debate, I will break the definition down. It states:”
“When that is achieved, LPS will have to amend the list anyway, so it may as well do it now when it has the chance. The arguments being put forward will demonstrate that a significant amount of physical activity is undertaken by the pigeon owner in preparation for and during pigeon races. We are not putting forward an argument regarding the physical activity of the pigeon owner to be recognised solely on the basis of a race. When you take the definition of "sport" as laid out in the Council of Europe's European sports charter of 1999, you see that it states:”
“I believe the premise to exclude pigeon racing due to a perceived lack of physical activity of the pigeon man or pigeon woman to be misguided. In any event, if the Department or LPS were to be exact in that stipulation, how could they and the UK sporting bodies explain — I will give you another list — ballooning, model aircraft flying, gliding, which is a special case, wildfowling, yoga and rambling as activities that require a greater degree or level of physical activity than that involved in pigeon racing? In fact, to refuse to treat pigeon racing equally in the rates legislation with those non-sporting activities is wholly discriminatory and should not be condoned by the House. <BR /> <BR />There is a lot of work being undertaken to get official recognition for pigeon racing as a sport.”
“The Land and Property Services list of prescribed recreations, which is predicated on the Rates (Recreational Hereditaments) Order (Northern Ireland) 2007, includes camping; model power boating; recreational walking; paddleball; bicycle polo; and power boarding. All those sports or, perhaps more accurately, recreations can avail themselves of the rates relief that can be obtained through the current legislation, never mind what may be possible through any future legislation. <BR /> <BR />What makes those activities different from the other 125 that are named as "prescribed recreations" is that they are not recognised by any of the UK sports councils as disciplines of other sports or on a stand-alone basis. That has been confirmed by Sport Northern Ireland.”
“At that stage, my party highlighted what it believed to be an irregularity, because it is disingenuous that some recreation sports are listed under the 2007 prescribed activities list but are not recognised as sports by Sport Northern Ireland.”
“The application process via the Northern Ireland Charities Commission is daunting in itself, never mind the financial cost of obtaining and retaining certification, and likely would outweigh any benefits that clubs might accrue through rate relief. The inclusion of pigeon racing in the list of prescribed activities will allow it to avail of the 80% rate relief, despite what happens in other clauses. <BR /> <BR />At Consideration Stage, the Minister made reference to:”
“I believe this Bill is the best vehicle for correcting an oversight, whereby pigeon racing is excluded from the LPS list of prescribed activities. As Mr Swann stated at the Second Stage, that would give the Minister an opportunity to be a trailblazer and a champion for pigeon men and women across Northern Ireland. Mr Swann asked me to make sure I put that in. <BR /> <BR />In previous exchanges with officials and special advisers, it was implied that pigeon clubs as registered charities was the answer. However, that is not the case, and it is an easy cop out because it would place a disproportionate burden on clubs that have the ability to take up the opportunity, against any benefits that they might achieve.”
“Unfortunately, he is unable to be here, and I am only too happy to take this forward on his behalf. <BR /> <BR />The issue was raised at the Bill's Second Stage by Mr Swann, and I want to expand on three points: why the Bill is an opportunity to pursue this, why pigeon racing should be included as a prescribed recreation by Land and Property Services (LPS) and how pigeon racing can meet the requirement to satisfy the definition of a sport. <BR /> <BR />The first clause of the Bill refers to the 1977 Order, and it is that Order that is the parent legislation for the Rates (Recreational Hereditaments) Order (Northern Ireland) 2007, which sets out the prescribed definition of recreations, as recognised by Land and Property Services.”
“I rise to speak primarily to amendment No 2, although we support amendment No 1. <BR /> <BR />I start by noting that it was my colleague Robin Swann who drove amendment No 2 forward. As has just been said, he did fly off to America. It is interesting that we have not heard a tweet from him since, but it will be a good test to see if he can home his way back.”
“Will you share with us how it proposes to do that?”
“I also thank the Minister for his report. It is a bit like Groundhog Day: every time we see these reports, they sound and read much the same. You said that, in the SEUPB business plan, there is what looks like a task to:”
“Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I rise to complain about the amendment. It goes back a little bit to, and links into, the CASC registration. I think that, in doing that, it excludes others that are not registered. So, I think, we need some other system so that, in the spirit of such clubs, every amateur sports club has the possibility. I do not know if there is a constitution, for instance, with which these CASCs have to comply, but there is, certainly, this question from me: does it exclude some other amateur sports clubs? I think that it does. So, at this stage, I will be voting against the amendment.”