Robin Newton
East Belfast · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I thank the Member for giving way. The Member is aware that the Education Committee took on the very early role, as he requested. Mrs Dodds made the point that the Bill does not have a natural home, and that many suspect that its required budget will be much greater than that outlined in the Bill.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. She is absolutely right about how despicable a crime human trafficking is and about the attempt, via the Bill, to address it.”
“That is not the type of language that we expect to see from such respected bodies. Their overall concern is the education of our children. They represent schools, and they say that the Bill is "flawed" and "not fit for purpose", but it looks as though we will vote it through. <BR /> <BR />I move now to the history of the Bill.”
“Thank you. There seems to be a similar attitude to this legislation. We, on this side of the Chamber, and indeed others, have consistently argued that a private Member's Bill is not suitable for this type of legislation. The ramifications of the Bill are significant.”
“Again, it has been referred to that the chief executives of the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools; the Controlled Schools' Support Council; the Governing Bodies Association, which is the body covering voluntary grammar schools; the Catholic Schools' Trustee Service; the Transferor Representatives' Council, which represents the Presb…”
“As we have done at every stage, we oppose the Bill. Mr McCrossan is not in the Chamber at the moment, but I am not unlike him in the sense that I believe in all our children being educated together.”
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“I thank the Member for giving way. The Member is aware that the Education Committee took on the very early role, as he requested. Mrs Dodds made the point that the Bill does not have a natural home, and that many suspect that its required budget will be much greater than that outlined in the Bill. <BR /> <BR />Would the Member agree with me that, given that the Education budget is under so much stress, should the Bill pass, the cost of implementing it and delivering the products in schools ought not to come from the current Education budget and that additional funds should be supplied for it, so that the Education budget does not face further stress?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. She is absolutely right about how despicable a crime human trafficking is and about the attempt, via the Bill, to address it. We were faced last night with equally harrowing reports in the media of the police investigating the local trafficking of children who are being taken to local hotels and other spots for sexual gratification. People are using and abusing those children by feeding them drugs and alcohol. Does the Member agree that human trafficking does not just involve bringing victims to Northern Ireland and that we need to be aware that human trafficking exists in our society?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. The Member quoted me as saying that a private Member's Bill was not the appropriate vehicle for this legislation. However, every member of the Education Committee will be aware that the legal advice was that a private Member's Bill is not a suitable vehicle for this legislation.”
“My colleague Mrs Dodds raised the concern with clause 4, which deals with the duty to "encourage, facilitate and support" integrated education. If that is not putting one sector above every other, I do not know what kind of argument would be acceptable to those who have concerns about the Bill but are going to vote for it.”
“Let us come to the conclusion of the Bill and to what we have written on paper. We have the Integrated Education Bill's explanatory and financial memorandum. I will read paragraph 11, which is under the heading, 'Financial Effects of the Bill', into the record word for word, because, at some stage, Members will have to account for the vote today. It states:”
“I have acknowledged what you said. <BR /> <BR />Others also spoke strongly against the Bill. I am pleased that the Ulster Unionist Party is to vote against the Bill — that is at least a small step in the right direction. At Second Stage, however, in reference to the SDLP, Mr Robbie Butler said:”
“I have the quote from Mr O'Dowd; in fact, he has just used the phrase "too far". At Second Stage, he said, "the Bill goes too far."”
“Considering his previous experience as an Education Minister, I have no doubt that what he was saying should have been listened to. It should have raised our concerns. I am sorry that Mr O'Dowd has not been available to comment.”
“That is not the type of language that we expect to see from such respected bodies. Their overall concern is the education of our children. They represent schools, and they say that the Bill is "flawed" and "not fit for purpose", but it looks as though we will vote it through. <BR /> <BR />I move now to the history of the Bill. As has been mentioned, we had lots of discussion at the Education Committee and in the Chamber, and many Members spoke. We have been consistent in our approach. We are opposed to the Bill, not to the integrated sector, and we have been opposed to it from the start. Others rose to speak in the Chamber. I am greatly saddened that Mr O'Dowd has not taken a more active part in the debate. At Second Stage, Mr O'Dowd spoke eloquently on the Bill, but he spoke strongly against it.”
“Again, it has been referred to that the chief executives of the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools; the Controlled Schools' Support Council; the Governing Bodies Association, which is the body covering voluntary grammar schools; the Catholic Schools' Trustee Service; the Transferor Representatives' Council, which represents the Presbyterian Church and the Methodist Church; along with officials from the Department of Education and the Education Authority have all raised concerns about the Bill. <BR /> <BR />The language that is being used by some is not typical of the language that one would see in communications from such bodies. The phrase "elevate integrated schools" is used. Their concerns are echoed in an open letter, which states:”
“I have no doubt that private Members' Bills will be supported in the future. I have a private Member's Bill that, unfortunately, will not reach its First Stage. I agree that private Members' Bills need greater support as they make their way through the House. I hope that that aspect will be resolved, as it deserves to be, in the next mandate. <BR /> <BR />Those who are to be the beneficiaries of better education fail to be convinced that the Integrated Education Bill will deliver that aspect, except to their disadvantage.”
“I will come to that later. <BR /> <BR />The Bill sponsor announced this morning that the Bill is now a good Bill because Mr Daniel Greenberg looked at it with her. I have the greatest respect for Daniel Greenberg. He is talented and knowledgeable and is sought after for his expertise. Indeed, in that sense, he is highly respected here and in Westminster and, I imagine, in Scotland and Wales as well. However, Mr Greenberg takes his instructions from the Bill sponsor. He does not construct the Bill; he takes his instructions from the Bill sponsor.”
“Thank you. There seems to be a similar attitude to this legislation. We, on this side of the Chamber, and indeed others, have consistently argued that a private Member's Bill is not suitable for this type of legislation. The ramifications of the Bill are significant. No other Bill going through the House has caused the controversy that this Bill has among those who will supposedly benefit from it, in overall terms, when it comes to the education of their children. No other Bill has raised such concerns. Indeed, Mr Beattie referred to it as "panic". I do not see it as panic; I do not see that. However, I see those who argue and make representation against the Bill as being constructive, analytical and intelligent. Indeed, they see the ramifications of the Bill for their education sector.”
“<BR /> <BR />I wish the integrated education sector well, because, as my colleague Mrs Dodds said, it does an excellent job. We are not here to debate the excellent job that it does. <BR /> <BR />As Mr Beattie said, the Bill comes at a time when an independent review of education is coming up. There may be an opportunity to change the Bill, because it has flaws, and everyone now recognises that. Nevertheless, the House is going to vote for it. Some folk here are going to vote for this legislation knowing that it has flaws. There are aspects of the Bill that we are not content with, but the House is going to vote for it.”
“As we have done at every stage, we oppose the Bill. Mr McCrossan is not in the Chamber at the moment, but I am not unlike him in the sense that I believe in all our children being educated together. When it was appropriate, I took steps — so that I do not get told off when I get home, I should say that my wife and I took steps — to ensure that our children had the opportunity to enjoy the company of and to be educated with children from all backgrounds, whether they were from a different religious background, a different nationality or a different ethnicity. They enjoyed that, and it was part of the roundness of their education. I do not want to take away from anyone who had an education in a school that did not offer that opportunity.”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. I recently did an appeal for a constituent who had been waiting for over three years. I have a number of other constituents who are not technology-savvy and are not able to get a face-to-face appeal. I think in particular of those who suffer from mental health issues or those whose mental health is a priority in their illness. Minister, what action will you take to ensure that the waiting time is reduced and that a three-year wait is a thing of the past?”
“I thank the Minister for her statement. Obviously, one always wants to encourage cooperation between the two jurisdictions, particularly in addressing the issue of organised crime gangs. Given the quantity of drugs that have been seized, is the Minister able to give us some information on the arrests and prosecutions that followed? <BR /> <BR />The Minister noted that, during the reporting period, 153 persons presented as being potential victims of human trafficking, 95 of whom were from Eritrea. Is she able to break that down as to whether that was in Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland?”
“<BR /> <BR />Everything that we wanted to say about the Bill was said in its earlier stages. We have reached the Final Stage, which means that the Bill will soon become law. As others said, it is a good piece of work by the Minister and her team in the Department. Much credit goes to those who were involved in developing it.”
“I pay tribute to the Minister and her officials for their hard work in delivering this piece of legislation. Indeed, I thank the Chamber for agreeing to accelerated passage. We all recognised that there was a need for flexibility, not just in the age of starting but in the provision of preschool education and in the time that the pupil has the opportunity to remain in school. <BR /> <BR />We all recognise that, with children who were born prematurely, in a class you could have one child starting aged four years and two months and another child starting aged five years and two months. In the time from birth until that age, the development of the premature child might not have allowed them to take full advantage of education. The Minister addressed that and is providing the necessary preschool education.”
“I support the Bill. "School Age Bill: Final Stage": is that not a nice term to be using today in the Chamber? I, like others, pay tribute to the groups that have lobbied hard over a long period on the issue. I particularly pay tribute to Belfast Mum, who, by addressing the issue and lobbying for it, has been a strong advocate.”
“Sorry, Mr Deputy Speaker, you have caught me unawares. I was not even aware that I had a second question down. My apologies. How embarrassing.”
“— which really urgently needs to be replaced. I ask the Minister whether she will publish a joined-up strategy for the residents of East Belfast, in order that they can challenge the insurance companies when they are put at risk of increased premiums for house insurance?”
“— Sydenham waste water pumping station, —”
“— infrastructure is under pressure, and indeed the —”
“I thank the Minister for her answer to that detailed question. Many of my constituents face challenges from the insurance industry when they renew their house insurance. You have noted the geography of East Belfast and that, perhaps more than any other part of Belfast, it is subject to five types of flooding: there is the tidal, which you have not acknowledged, torrential rainfall, such as when in 2007 hundreds of homes were flooded. In many places the joint rain and sewage —”
“I say that only in jest. We are working towards law that will be set in place and will disadvantage some sectors of our community. We want each sector, whether it is the controlled sector, the Catholic maintained sector, the Irish-medium sector or the integrated sector, to stand in its own right and receive favourable support from our education system.”
“I never thought that I would see the phrase "Irish-medium school" and "Royal Assent" in the same line.”
“I am not quite sure what point the Member is making, but I have already paid tribute to the integrated movement and what it has achieved in its sector and the difficulties that it had in establishing the sector. <BR /> <BR />I will finish with this because I think that nearly everything that can be said has been said. I had to look up the word "oxymoron" earlier because when I looked at amendment No 11 to clause 8, page 4, line 16, I saw the insertion to be:”
“I know from contact with principals in east Belfast how insulted they feel that their efforts around integrated education in order to bring children together and ensure that their school is open to all are not being appreciated.”
“I thank the Member for that piece of information. Indeed, the situation that she has outlined in Dungannon is replicated across Northern Ireland.”
“In all the time that we have been debating the Bill, the message has not gone out to parents that any of the clauses that we are debating addresses their concerns.”
“you know that it is on the minds of parents who are concerned about the future of their children's education. They go on to say:”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. I am not aware that any of the more recent emails that I received claimed that that was the case. There can be no doubt in Members' minds that the various clauses that we are addressing have not addressed that in the minds of principals, educational bodies, CCMS, the controlled sector or, indeed, parents. When parents write to you, as dozens of them have done — you have had dozens write to you, as have we all — to say:”
“As a member of the Education Committee, I was contacted by people from all over Northern Ireland. They raised questions about the various clauses and, indeed, some of the amendments that we see today that were giving them concern.”
“That case has been argued on this side of the Chamber since the Bill was introduced. <BR /> <BR />Mr Sheehan kindly allowed me an intervention. He then came back to me and asked whether I wanted another intervention. I was waiting at that stage for you to call me, Mr Speaker, but I did not catch your eye. I will reply to the point that Mr Sheehan made. I asked him whether he knew how many empty desks there were in the integrated sector. At this time, there are 3,000 empty desks in integrated schools. <BR /> <BR />Mr Sheehan also raised the issue of responses that have come in to the various clauses. He said that people were contacting him from outside his constituency but indicating that they were constituents. I can assume only that the same thing that happened to me was happening to him.”
“Before asking the question of whether this is the right way to proceed, the moderator also said:”
“He omitted to say that, earlier in that article, the moderator, representing the Presbyterian Church, which plays a significant role in education in the controlled sector, also referred to the shared education sector. The moderator indicated:”
“It is clear that the Bill is still concerned with encouraging, facilitating and, now, supporting integrated education — one sector — but that it is completely unconcerned about the implications for the other 93% of our children who do not attend integrated schools. I have the greatest respect for the integrated sector and the history of what it did. It struck out in difficult times and made significant progress in what it did. In processing the Bill, however, we cannot put into legislation law that will favour one sector and exclude the other sectors from the full benefits. <BR /> <BR />The Chair of the Education Committee, Mr Lyttle, commented about the moderator raising the concern:”
“Like my colleagues, I accept the best of intentions of those who have proposed the group 2 amendments, which relate to "Consultation, strategy and decision-making". I accept that the amendments have been tabled with the best of intentions. I particularly accept those best intentions in relation to amendment Nos 5, 6, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 and 19. I accept that what is being done with those amendments is being done to address concerns that have been expressed by this side of the Chamber; thankfully, others are now catching up on that matter. <BR /> <BR />However, as has been said, I do not think that the Bill can be made good, even with the best of intentions. In particular, Dolores Kelly made a comment in her remarks.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Will he quantify for the Chamber how many vacant places there are in integrated schools at the moment?”
“Is that the type of supremacist attitude that Mr Allister was referring to?”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. We are making it hard for you today. When talking about the ethos of the Bill, Mr Allister spoke about its "supremacist" nature and said that other sectors had started to awaken to the implications of the Bill. Does he agree that some schools are encouraging integration in a natural format? I will not name the school, but one school that made the representation that he is talking about said that it:”
“I thank the Member for giving way. The point that he makes about supremacy and the awakening of other sectors to the Bill —”
“Anyway, I have nearly finished my contribution on the amendments. <BR /> <BR />The Bill and these amendments do nothing to reassure the wider community. There is the lack of consultation that Mrs Dodds referred to and the poor drafting of the Bill. None of the amendments that have been proposed give any comfort to the moderator, the Catholic maintained sector, the controlled sector or principals and parents in the wider community. I will maybe wait to see whether it is the case, but I have not seen a statement from the integrated sector wholly supporting the Bill.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I did not realise that I was so controversial”
“That is how the moderator and the Presbyterian Church see the Bill. <BR /> <BR />I have already made the point that Further Consideration Stage should be about tweaking amendments, not major changes to the Bill. Also, Ms Armstrong, the sponsor of the Bill, indicated that the Church had the opportunity to make representations, but there is a major gap in the consultation by the Bill sponsor. Had she done that consultation, we would not have arrived at —.”
“Yes. Sorry. I thought I actually had, at the commencement, indicated my concern about all the amendments in group 1, and, indeed, made reference specifically to a number of them. I was reacting to the points made, Mr Deputy Speaker. <BR /> <BR />Mr Allister stole my thunder with one quotation, but there is another quotation from the article where the opposition of the Presbyterian Church is predicated on what is in the Bill, particularly the amendments in group 1. The quotation is:”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for that ruling. Can I just deal with the point made by the Bill's sponsor? I will reflect on the point made, although you have spoken to the Member. <BR /> <BR />Yes, indeed, the Presbyterian Church made strong representation and expressed its opposition or, as I understand it, its concerns, at least, to Committee members at that stage of the Bill's transition. Having said that, I can only presume that the article was written by the moderator on the basis that he sees the Bill continuing its progress through the Assembly —.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention and the Bill sponsor for her intervention. The quotation that Mr Allister gave from the article was one that I had underlined.”
“When you start to change words, at this stage, from "may" to "must" and add nearly a paragraph, in one case, to the Bill, surely it must give everyone concern. <BR /> <BR />In the wider context, who would have thought that the moderator of the Presbyterian Church would take it upon himself, presumably with support from the Church, to place an article in the 'Belfast Telegraph' expressing concerns about this Bill? With the resources that the Presbyterian Church has, and I know that it is the case for the Catholic Church as well —”