Trevor Lunn
Lagan Valley · Independent · Northern Ireland
“I know what I am going to do: I am not quite sure what he is going to do. <BR /> <BR />In discussion at the Committee, we had submissions from the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools (CCMS) and the Catholic Schools' Trustee Service.”
“They are relaxed about this. I know that they have some concerns about the Catholic ethos of their schools, but I cannot believe that the admission of non-Catholic teachers into Catholic schools will change the ethos of those schools at all. There is more of an obligation on teachers coming in to accept that ethos and run with it.”
“All that I can say to that is that the women, mostly, and couples who go to an abortion clinic, advisory service, hospital or private hospital are also entitled to freedom of movement and freedom of action. They are entitled to that under the law that was brought in by the British Government.”
“. Not yet, anyway. We have had this Bill from Chris, two Bills from the Green Party, and I forget the others. It has been a good day and, as others have said — yes, Pat Catney, of course, my constituency colleague, as well — it indicates what the Assembly is capable of.”
“The other day, we talked about the Brook advisory clinic and all the shenanigans around it. Most people here are too young to remember that, but it was effectively the same issue. <BR /> <BR />We are where we are. I hope that the Bill will pass; I am sure that it will now, judging by the tenor of the House. It will be another step.”
“<BR /> <BR />Back in 2015, I decided to visit the Marie Stopes clinic. I wanted to find out exactly what it was about. That year, the police had been called to the front of the clinic 200 times.”
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“I thank the Member for giving way. I think there must be a difference between silent prayer where someone is on their knees indulging in silent prayer outside the door of the premises within the buffer zone, which is clearly designed to influence the person, as against someone who wants to have a silent prayer outside the City Hall half a mile away. There is a difference here. I am sure that God gets both messages, but there is a difference.”
“I am glad to see that the Assembly, even in my time, has managed to pass some progressive legislation that just would not have happened 10 or 15 years ago. We are moving. We are doing OK. <BR /> <BR />I wish everybody well, including you, Mr Deputy Speaker, the Speaker and the other Deputy Speaker.”
“The other day, we talked about the Brook advisory clinic and all the shenanigans around it. Most people here are too young to remember that, but it was effectively the same issue. <BR /> <BR />We are where we are. I hope that the Bill will pass; I am sure that it will now, judging by the tenor of the House. It will be another step. If we need to do more for women's rights, I hope that the next Assembly will do it, but for the time being, perhaps this is as far as we need to go. <BR /> <BR />As this is my last contribution and as a lot of other Members have done, I wish everybody well. I wish them well in the election, in that I hope that they achieve the vote that they deserve. That may not be the same as the vote that they think that they deserve. I look forward to the outcome of the election.”
“Yes. I am not for one minute trying to encourage those protesters, but it is a fact that the restriction applies only to designated areas outside designated premises. <BR /> <BR />All other avenues have been exhausted; this is the only way forward. We cannot rely on existing legislation. I do not see any point in suggesting, as Pam Cameron did, an amendment to tweak the existing harassment laws. In a way, that is what the Bill does. <BR /> <BR />It is a good day for women's reproductive rights. I thoroughly support the Bill, and I congratulate Ms Bailey once again. I have been involved in this issue for about 10 or 12 years now, but that is nothing compared with the amount of time during which Clare has been involved, including long before she was in the Chamber.”
“I did not quite get the logic of that, with all due respect. The Bill will stop people protesting in any material form inside the designated area outside a particular premises. I am happy to give way again, if the Member wishes to clarify what she said.”
“All of that will be banned in the vicinity of a designated area, which will be a space of 100 metres or perhaps 150 metres, depending on the geography of the location. It will not stop people protesting outside that area, and it will not stop people railing against abortion till the cows come home, if they want to do that. It will, however, stop them harassing women who are in a very fragile state and who are making serious decisions — not easy decisions — that will affect the rest of their life.”
“All that I can say to that is that the women, mostly, and couples who go to an abortion clinic, advisory service, hospital or private hospital are also entitled to freedom of movement and freedom of action. They are entitled to that under the law that was brought in by the British Government. Every time that there is an abortion debate of some kind in this place, it turns into some sort of conscience thing. We now have abortion services provided under the law. Hopefully, in the new mandate, whoever is the Health Minister will move to commission them properly. If not, by the sound of Brandon Lewis's comments today, the British Government will again step in and do that for us. <BR /> <BR />The Bill is designed to stop the possibility of harassment, abuse and confrontation as well as people filming and taking photographs.”
“<BR /> <BR />Back in 2015, I decided to visit the Marie Stopes clinic. I wanted to find out exactly what it was about. That year, the police had been called to the front of the clinic 200 times. There was, I think, one attempted prosecution of a very well-known lady activist, who complained about nearly everything but particularly abortion. However, the prosecution was not successful; she got off. She would only have been given a fine, but it was not enforced. What does that say about the existing legislation, which has been referred to a couple of times here? Some have said that it is powerful enough and that we do not need this legislation. We clearly need it, because everything else has failed. <BR /> <BR />People are saying that the Bill restricts freedom of speech and freedom of movement.”
“I will, of course, support the Bill today. I congratulate the Bill sponsor on introducing it. The House has a history on abortion matters that goes back to before 2016. I remember when Stewart Dickson and I tabled an amendment to try to introduce a concession for fatal fetal abnormality, which the House rejected. That was in perhaps 2015. There has been a lot of discussion about it. At least, in the end, the British Government saw sense and decided to introduce legislation on behalf of the Assembly. It is no tribute to the Assembly that that had to happen. Where we are today is the latest piece in a jigsaw of regulations and rules. It is finally becoming a reality that women's rights are fully recognised, including their right to control and make decisions about their body.”
“. Not yet, anyway. We have had this Bill from Chris, two Bills from the Green Party, and I forget the others. It has been a good day and, as others have said — yes, Pat Catney, of course, my constituency colleague, as well — it indicates what the Assembly is capable of. People will remind us — well, remind you, because I will not be here — of that after the election. They have often said to me in the last few weeks, "Why could you not have done this over the last three years? How much legislation would you have passed?". They have a point. <BR /> <BR />I am not looking in any particular direction, but I hope that good sense will prevail and that perhaps Members can get back to work after the election at an early stage. I really hope so, and I wish everybody in this Assembly well, including yourself, Mr Deputy Speaker.”
“He tries to deny it, but we will have to wait and see. He is very quiet about what he is going to do next. I wish him well. <BR /> <BR />This is a pretty good day for smaller parties, is it not? We have had the Hospital Parking Charges Bill — well, that was not from a smaller party”
“They are relaxed about this. I know that they have some concerns about the Catholic ethos of their schools, but I cannot believe that the admission of non-Catholic teachers into Catholic schools will change the ethos of those schools at all. There is more of an obligation on teachers coming in to accept that ethos and run with it. There are — I am trying to avoid the word "Protestant" — non-Catholic teachers already in Catholic schools, and the roof has not fallen in. <BR /> <BR />This is a good day. I congratulate Chris, my past party colleague, also on his tenure as Committee Chair. He has done a fantastic job and I wish him well wherever life takes him; let us put it that way. I do not think that he will be lost to the public service. I hope not. He may not even be lost to politics, because I know that he has caught the bug.”
“I know what I am going to do: I am not quite sure what he is going to do. <BR /> <BR />In discussion at the Committee, we had submissions from the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools (CCMS) and the Catholic Schools' Trustee Service. I must say that, from listening to the discussion, I thought that there was an element of reservation from those two organisations. I thought perhaps that they were even going to oppose the Bill. Therefore, it was a pleasant surprise when, at the very end, it was indicated by Gerry Campbell from CCMS, and in particular from Bishop Donal McKeown on behalf of the trustees, that they had no problem with the Bill and they were OK with it. <BR /> <BR />Others have said that things have moved forward in Northern Ireland. That is a pretty good example of it. Ten years ago, there would not have been that reaction.”
“Like everybody else, I congratulate the Bill's sponsor on bringing this Bill through at such speed, with the cooperation of the Committee — the Chair is smiling — the Department and everybody else. A one-line Bill should not be that complicated, but this one raised issues, which we managed to resolve fairly quickly. <BR /> <BR />I should also say, before I forget, that I was not expecting to be retiring on the same day as Chris Lyttle.”
“I am not necessarily disagreeing with the Minister's approach, but does that indicate that there is still some doubt about it?”
“I thank the Minister for his statement. I have to declare that I am not from a farming background, so I am listening with interest to all this. Some years ago, the Public Accounts Committee investigated bovine TB, and the conclusion was that there was no proven link of transmissibility between badgers and bovine animals. The Minister's statement says:”
“His loss is to politics in Northern Ireland and the House, but the greatest loss is to his colleagues across the Chamber and, of course, to his wife and family. I grieve for them today, as we all do. I hope that they can find the strength to get through this, however long it takes. It is a dreadful loss.”
“I always thought that that was profound. When Christopher eventually arrived up here, I got to know him better, as did everybody else. I particularly remember his debating skills, which others have mentioned. Prior to 2016, when you got on your feet to speak, you had a fair chance of getting through what you had to say without intervention. After 2016, it was not really a case of whether Christopher would intervene, but when and how many times. His intervention skills were forensic. He was really good at it, partly because he was so au fait with the rules and procedures of the House, which he demonstrated so ably when he became Principal Deputy Speaker. I have no doubt, and agree with others, that he would have become Speaker of the House in due course. <BR /> <BR />Christopher will be missed by everybody in the Chamber.”
“By the time that the exchange was finished, I was definitely the loser and Christopher was the winner. I remember thinking about Abraham Lincoln's comments all those years ago. When he had been in touch with somebody he was unsure about, he said”
“I want to start by expressing my sympathy and condolences, along with everybody else, to Christopher's family, his wife, Laura, and his four children on the awful shock that they suffered at the weekend. I also want to express my condolences and sympathy to Christopher's DUP colleagues. I do not often sit on this side of the Chamber, but it is plain to see from their expressions, both verbal and facial, how hard this has hit them. It is a tremendous loss — a grievous loss — to the DUP, the Assembly and Northern Ireland politics. <BR /> <BR />My first encounter with Christopher was not in person but on Twitter. Perhaps it is not the best medium on which to meet someone, but there we are. It happened way back when I was here and he was still on Belfast City Council. I tweeted something that he did not like.”
“I go back to Mr McGuigan's question about the legal advice. Minister, is it not unprecedented that the Departmental Solicitor's Office should go to a previous Attorney General for advice? Is it not the case that it was most likely directed to do so by you?”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. She rightly highlights the situation around the Justice (Sexual Offences and Trafficking Victims) Bill, which is vital. Every effort should be made to finalise that in this mandate. Does she agree that the worst outcome of the current shenanigans would be that we have an early election? She referred to that, but can she put on the record what that would mean?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. The question arose from a meeting between the Executive Committee and the Victims and Survivors Forum last week. Members of the forum expressed their utter frustration that, having listened to the announcement of a centre to be established that was made by a previous Minister in a blaze of publicity in September 2005, nothing seems to have happened between that time and when the current Minister took over. I am glad to hear that the Minister is announcing some progress. <BR /> <BR />Will the Minister give a timescale or detail on any substantial progress that has been made? Will there be provision in the increased budget that he or, perhaps, somebody else will have that might allow the matter to proceed with a bit more speed?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. I was going to ask the same supplementary as Mr Weir. I will look at the issue in reverse. What examination has the Minister made about the prospect of revenue raising locally, which would start to deal with the problem, perhaps from a different direction?”
“<BR /> <BR />I firmly believe, as does the family, that someone — or several people — knows enough to identify where Lisa was left. I hope that they will make contact and put an end to the nightmare. The anguish suffered by the Dorrian family over 17 years must be unbearable, and they should be enabled to lay Lisa to rest in the proper manner. I implore anyone who knows anything to search their conscience and do the right thing. <BR /> <BR />In closing, I will mention the other disappeared. They are familiar names: Columba McVeigh, Joe Lynskey and Captain Robert Nairac. I hope that, some day, we can obtain closure for those families as well.”
“If they have any humanity and feelings, they should do so. They could use the Crimestoppers confidential phone line or contact the Independent Commission for the Location of Victims' Remains (ICLVR) in confidence and anonymity. If they are hesitant about doing that, I invite them to contact me. I will talk to them in complete confidence, whether or not they were in any way involved in what happened. I do not need to know who they are, and I do not need to meet them; I just need them to tell me whether they can shed light on a dreadful situation. Leave me a message; send me a note; talk to me. The only information that I want is that which may lead to the whereabouts of Lisa's body; not who told me; indeed, I probably would not know who they were.”
“Gradually, as the evening progressed, they left, until just two were left: Lisa and a young man. At some point, the story goes, they heard voices outside and, rather than stay inside the caravan and lock the door, they decided to leave. They did so but were separated and ran in different directions. Lisa has never been seen since then. The description of events that I have just given is that related by the young man whom Lisa was with. <BR /> <BR />My reason for raising the case is the torment caused to the family by the absence of a body and, therefore, the inability to give Lisa a Christian burial and bring some level of closure to her relatives. I appeal to anyone with information about where Lisa may be to come forward and share it. There are people out there who know something that may be useful.”
“I want to talk about the tragic case of Lisa Dorrian, a young woman of 25 who disappeared and is now presumed dead. <BR /> <BR />The name will be familiar, but I will give some detail. Lisa was 25 and was a personable and friendly young woman with everything to live for. She disappeared without trace on 28 February 2005, which, in a few weeks' time, will be 17 years ago. An intensive and far-reaching PSNI investigation is ongoing, but, despite its best efforts and many searches, no trace of Lisa's whereabouts or where she is buried has been found, the assumption being that she was murdered and her body hidden. <BR /> <BR />Lisa attended a small gathering of friends in a caravan in Ballyhalbert on that night. There were about six or seven people, apparently. They were comparatively new friends.”
“This matter will not be finished whatever our conclusion is when we pass this measure — if we pass this measure. I think that we should do so, and I hope that the majority here will agree with me. It is necessary, and I will continue to support it.”
“They are something of a handful at times, like most children, but are capable of a normal and enjoyable life. I am not prepared to sanction a measure that goes beyond what is available in the regulations and that, dare I say it, would not have been included if the Assembly had lived up to its responsibility and passed its own legislation instead of abdicating its responsibility and leaving it to Westminster to legislate.”
“<BR /> <BR />There is no definition of what constitutes a severe fetal impairment. Various authorities have tried to define it, but it is not clear. It appears, however, to allow for a fetus to be aborted because of Down's syndrome, among other conditions. I hear reference to cleft palate, club foot and cleft lip. I noted in Ms Bradshaw's remarks that medical opinion here was that there would have been no abortions performed here, nor would there be, on the basis of cleft palate or club foot. I do not know what the situation is in Great Britain, however. It may well be that those are considered grounds for an abortion there. I really do not know. <BR /> <BR />Most of us will know children who have to live with Down's. They are usually loving and affectionate.”
“I find it strange for me to be supporting the DUP on this type of subject, but it is most unusual for me to disagree with Amnesty. That is where you find yourself sometimes. <BR /> <BR />I am capable of changing my mind on issues. I have done it before. I do not think that I will do it again, but I did it on two major issues in the past. On this matter, however, and on the specific point of the Bill, I do not intend to change my mind, and I will be supporting the Bill today. Having campaigned for the rights of women to request a termination on the grounds of a fatal fetal abnormality, where there was no hope of life outside the womb, I find it frankly objectionable to be asked to support a measure that allows for termination at any point in the pregnancy owing to a non-life-threatening condition.”
“<BR /> <BR />On the point about CEDAW and our United Nations obligations, there were different legal opinions. The First Minister, when he was here, highlighted some of them. Former Lord Chief Justice Kerr, the noble lord who was severely disabled himself, gave us some background as to what might have happened to him if this law had been in force. There was also medical opinion given locally here. The First Minister said that at least 200 medical practitioners supported this change to the law. <BR /> <BR />At this point, I acknowledge the briefing from Amnesty International advising us that I should not support the Bill. I have enormous respect for Amnesty International when I think of the work that Patrick Corrigan and Grainne Teggart do.”
“I thank Mr Stalford for that. That is reassuring. <BR /> <BR />At the time, there was considerable argument about aspects of what we were doing: first, around the principle of the Northern Ireland Assembly even trying to amend Westminster legislation; and, secondly, whether we were bound by the CEDAW agreement and regulations to which the UK is a signatory, as that would indicate that we cannot legally do what is now proposed, as that is an unacceptable infringement of women's rights. <BR /> <BR />On the first point about whether we are competent to amend Westminster legislation, I really do not know. I fancy, however, that, if and when we pass the Bill, and I think that we may well do, and it reaches the point of Royal Assent, we will find out then, if not before.”
“I was about to invite Mr Stalford to confirm that for me.”
“I expressed my hope at the time that the Assembly could do something about it, which is why we are here today. <BR /> <BR />When the Bill came before the House, I was glad to see a majority across parties in support, even though it put me in an unusual place, going through a Lobby with the DUP, with which I more often disagree on social issues. I did have an assurance at that time from the now First Minister that the Bill's sole purpose was to remove the reference to "Severe fetal impairment or" and would not be used as a stepping stone to attempt to interfere further with abortion regulations as a whole. On that basis, I therefore openly supported the current Bill.”
“As a long-term supporter of a woman's right to choose, my stance has always been pro-choice, and, for the record, it is an absolute disgrace and a shame on the Assembly that full abortion services have not yet been commissioned here. I join others in demanding that that situation be rectified as soon as possible. I made it clear, however, that the inclusion in the regulations of the words "severe fetal impairment" as opposed to "fatal fetal abnormality" was unacceptable.”
“This is a difficult issue for the Assembly and for every Member, including me. During my time with Alliance, it was a conscience issue, and I still see it that way. Mr Lyttle and Ms Bradshaw have clearly indicated that it is still a conscience issue. They are entitled to disagree on the matter, and I respect that. It is also a conscience issue for the SDLP. I am not sure about the Ulster Unionist Party. It certainly is not a conscience issue for the two major parties. <BR /> <BR />Back in March 2020, when we debated the introduction of the Abortion (Northern Ireland) (No. 2) Regulations 2020 that were imposed on Northern Ireland by Westminster, I welcomed their introduction.”
“I am a long way away here. I thank the Minister for her answer. I am glad that she has made it quite clear where the blockage is in this matter. Will she outline the worst-case scenario if mitigation legislation is not introduced during this term, particularly around the bedroom tax, which she mentioned, and the benefit cap?”
“I thank the First Minister for a very useful statement. I would like clarification on gatherings in indoor domestic settings. It seems that up to 30 people from an unspecified number of households are allowed to gather indoors at the same time as house parties are banned. An indoor gathering could be for many reasons, but the type of gatherings that I am thinking of, albeit I am not familiar with them these days, could involve indoor dancing, which is not banned, apparently, and music and drinking. At what point does such a gathering become a house party? How would anybody distinguish between the two?”
“<BR /> <BR />Ireland's Future, the organisation to which I now belong, has been consistent in calling for a citizens' assembly drawn from North and South to meet in order to establish the facts, positive and negative, on the unification question. They are also clear, like all political parties of any substance, that the population North and South must consent to allow any change to take place. I ask and recommend that all parties adopt the principle of a citizen's assembly and encourage its formation. Hopefully, with the right membership — frankly, probably not including politicians — such a body can progress the debate in time for the inevitable border poll.”
“It seems to be running into the sand at the moment. Can the education systems be harmonised? We have two splendid police forces on this island: can they be brought together into one unit? What do we do about pensions? What about identity, Britishness and cultural expression? What about the position of Stormont? Can we have regional assemblies under a new regime, or is that not possible? We have four provinces in Ireland, so we could work it in that way. <BR /> <BR />I am aware of the Southern Government's Shared Island unit, without knowing much of the detail. It sounds a bit vague to me, although it is hardly fair to say that. Likewise, I do not have any details about the SDLP's New Ireland Commission. I do not wish to criticise it. It is a good initiative, so let us wait for the outcome.”
“I wish to raise the topic of a potential border poll and what should happen in advance of the Secretary of State perhaps calling a referendum. We may not all agree with the outcome of the 2016 Brexit poll, but the lack of planning, the level of misinformation, the deceit and the misleading nonsense are self-evident now and clearly influenced the result. A border poll in Ireland, if it is to genuinely reflect the will of the Irish people, including unionists, will require detailed information gathering and presentation to allow voters to make an informed choice based on correct facts and proposals. We can learn from Brexit and conduct a fair and open poll. <BR /> <BR />The matters of most concern have been well rehearsed. For instance, what do we do about the health service? Is Sláintecare a runner, or is it not?”
“Before he asks, I supported it at the time, but I thought that it was enough at the time and it remains so. We must move on. The introduction of a measure to prohibit the nomination to public bodies of certain individuals who have historical convictions is not, in my opinion, worthwhile or constructive. <BR /> <BR />That is all I have to say. Everyone in our process has had to give ground, develop and mature. We must continue to do that. I do not see any advantage to passing the Bill, frankly, and I hope that it will fall.”
“Partly as a result of Sinn Féin's participation on the board, confidence in policing improved, as did recruitment from the nationalist community. Those Sinn Féin members, and, to an extent, the SDLP members as well, are entitled to a measure of credit for that improvement. I do not see any point to the clause that seeks to prevent the participation of people like Gerry Kelly, Pat Sheehan and others, except for some kind of retribution or a vindictive attitude that they must continually pay for their wrongdoings after 40 years. <BR /> <BR />The clause that deals with the appointment of non-elected persons to public bodies by political parties is also a move that I do not wish to support. Mr Allister's Bill of 2013, relating to the appointment of highly-paid special advisers, was timely and necessary.”
“<BR /> <BR />When the Sinn Féin members agreed to join the board, it was against the wishes of a large portion of their supporters, who did not think that it was worthwhile to support policing in this country. Where is policing now compared with then? We have made considerable progress. In my time, the Sinn Féin members were Caitríona Ruane, Pat Sheehan and the much-maligned Gerry Kelly. Like most other members, they provided input from their perspectives and earned a measure of respect from the other members and senior personnel in the PSNI. It must have been hard for the PSNI and the Sinn Féin members to cope with that situation, but they did, as did the unionist members. We all persevered and policing is better for it.”
“I know that the question of remorse and contrition is contained in the Bill. If I supported the Bill, I would certainly support that particular section. When did you last hear an expression of remorse or contrition about our Troubles, from either side? I would like the people who bombed my office in 2013 to come and talk to me and say, "We are sorry. We will tell you why we did that". They were loyalists. We all have a history. <BR /> <BR />I will move on. I sat on the Policing Board for some years — I think that it was about six or seven years. It is a pretty feisty forum. It is a bit like this Chamber: sometimes things can erupt, and things can go sweetly at other times. It is useful. It is composed of elected members and non-elected nominees, and it does good work in its role of holding the PSNI to account.”
“I thank Mr Wells for his intervention. I have attended many commemorations down the years and have spent over 10 years supporting the Ballymurphy families, so I am well aware of the hurt that still exists, even 50 or more years on. However, I wonder at what point we will be able to move on from some of this and accept some situations that we do not find particularly acceptable but, for the greater good, we perhaps need to accept. <BR /> <BR />Frankly, I contend that, if a person has done the time that is commensurate with the crime and successfully joined the Assembly under the electoral rules, we should not seek to punish them further by denying them opportunities to repay their debt to society through full participation in Assembly activities. That includes appointments to the Policing Board and other public bodies.”
“In the early years, it was difficult to treat everybody the same, because everybody was not the same. However, we mature. We are now 15 years on. <BR /> <BR />It follows from that that all Members should have equality in appointments outside and within the Assembly structures. The Bill seeks to differentiate between Members who have historical convictions, some of which are now 40 or 50 years old and which did not prevent them from being elected as MLAs, and those who do not. When those convictions occurred or the time served in prison, as long as it was at least five years, makes no difference.”
“I have a few comments to make about the Bill, but I might as well declare that, despite having heard some heartfelt and passionate speeches on both sides of the argument, my instinct is to oppose it. <BR /> <BR />In Northern Ireland, we have rules that exclude some candidates from political office. There are very few. As somebody mentioned, bankruptcy is one, as well as a serious criminal conviction, in the case of a sitting Member. There are relatively few obstacles to trying to achieve office in this Assembly. That is a good thing. We need wide representation. That is the way it should be, and that is actually the way that it is. I came here in 2007, and I made up my mind at that time to try to treat all Members the same and to recognise that they came here from their constituencies with the same mandate as I did.”