Jimmy Spratt
South Belfast · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Thank you for that advice, Mr Speaker. I do not intend to refer to the individual again. The point that I was trying to make is that it is true that there is no mechanism in the House to have the commissioner investigated. I would have asked for an investigation had I had an avenue to do so, but there was no avenue.”
“No, I will not give way, because you would not give way to me, so why should I give way to you? I have heard enough of your ramblings for this evening.”
“At the outset, I send my condolences to Douglas Bain. However, can I also say, as one who has been investigated — not once, but twice — on the same issue by the same Douglas Bain that I found him to be a pompous, arrogant, self-serving and patronising individual?”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think that it is wrong for the Chair to say that. There was no suggestion that the Committee Clerk, who probably wrote the speech, was being criticised in any way. He is not being criticised. I never at any point during my remarks criticised the Committee Chair.”
“Thank you for that advice, Mr Speaker. The point that I was trying to make is that the Committee totally ignored that particular part of the legal advice. I thought that that was wrong, and that was why I and other colleagues consistently voted against.”
“I thank the Member for giving way and for his remarks at the start, but I will be back to haunt you for another month in September: I haven't gone away, you know.”
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“You said that the Committee had "no other option". The Committee did, of course, have another option, which it voted on, and that was to do nothing. However, again, it was a split vote. Therefore, there was another option, not just the option that you refer to.”
“I thank the Member for giving way and for his remarks at the start, but I will be back to haunt you for another month in September: I haven't gone away, you know. <BR /> <BR />In relation to what you have just said, is it not proper and right that the Committee should also, given its status, take into account legal advice clearly given by a member of the legal team of the Assembly? It failed to do that; it accepted only the point that suited certain individuals on the Committee.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think that it is wrong for the Chair to say that. There was no suggestion that the Committee Clerk, who probably wrote the speech, was being criticised in any way. He is not being criticised. I never at any point during my remarks criticised the Committee Chair. In fact, I have the highest regard for the Committee Chair and the Committee staff, so the Deputy Chair should withdraw those remarks. I ask you to ask her to withdraw those remarks immediately, because they are totally out of context with what I said, Mr Speaker.”
“No, I will not give way, because you would not give way to me, so why should I give way to you? I have heard enough of your ramblings for this evening. <BR /> <BR />The bottom line is that Mr Wilson's right of expression and freedom of speech have been seriously abused, in my view, by the commissioner and by the other members of the Committee. That is why we have put a valid petition of concern in tonight. As previously pointed out, the party opposite did so for Mr Kelly. If it had been a member of Sinn Féin or the SDLP that had been in front of the Committee for the same thing, I would be voting with them and supporting them tonight. So, shame on them, and no lectures from Anna Lo about petitions of concern. You signed one the other day.”
“Thank you for that advice, Mr Speaker. The point that I was trying to make is that the Committee totally ignored that particular part of the legal advice. I thought that that was wrong, and that was why I and other colleagues consistently voted against. Only Mr McCann, more power to him, has had the grace to point out that this was a split decision all the way. The Deputy Chair never mentioned that once in her remarks. It was split from the beginning. Yes, it is a political forum, but we were not —”
“<BR /> <BR />In the speech that was written for her, the Deputy Chair made very pointed remarks to suit her argument in relation to the legal advice that came to the Committee, because the legal advice was very, very clear. At the outset, the legal adviser stated:”
“Thank you for that advice, Mr Speaker. I do not intend to refer to the individual again. The point that I was trying to make is that it is true that there is no mechanism in the House to have the commissioner investigated. I would have asked for an investigation had I had an avenue to do so, but there was no avenue. <BR /> <BR />Let me give you another scenario: if a young, vulnerable person who is a civilian comes along and makes serious allegations against a Member of the House, allegations that are then investigated by the commissioner, and she is so traumatised by the commissioner that she has to walk out and cannot give evidence again to him because of the way in which she was stressed and traumatised, there is no avenue for that individual to make a complaint. I think that is something that is sadly lacking in the House.”
“At the outset, I send my condolences to Douglas Bain. However, can I also say, as one who has been investigated — not once, but twice — on the same issue by the same Douglas Bain that I found him to be a pompous, arrogant, self-serving and patronising individual? I have heard Members from the other side of the House say exactly the same thing about him. He is not someone with whom it is pleasurable to do business. <BR /> <BR />From the very outset, I think that Mr Wilson hit the nail on the head when he said that, in Mr Bain's interview with him, Bain had already made up his mind. He had made up his mind on the basis of how he decided to interpret the word "thug.".”
“I thank the Member for giving way. You will have heard the Deputy Chair talk about the legal advice that the Committee got. Will you agree that the Deputy Chair gave a pretty dodgy summary of the legal advice to the House? She did not take into full account what was said in the very clear and full legal advice that we got from our legal advisers.”
“The Minister highlighted a discussion between the Administrations about the economy. How does Northern Ireland's economic performance compare with that of other BIC members?”
“The Committee has done that unanimously and in cooperation with the commissioner, having undertaken a careful, detailed consideration of a wide range of issues. The new code establishes the principles of conduct expected from all Members, sets the rules of conduct that flow from these standards and provides openness and accountability to ensure public confidence in the standards of the Assembly. On behalf of the Committee on Standards and Privileges, I ask the Assembly to agree the new code and guide.”
“The Committee has therefore agreed that it will amend its direction to the commissioner so that he will not investigate complaints that should be properly resolved in another statutory or official forum. However, Mr McCallister may wish to read the Hansard report of the Committee's session with the Clerk to the Assembly/Director General of the Assembly, when it was briefed on the extension of the Carecall welfare service to Members and their staff and the potential for grievance procedures and employment tribunals. <BR /> <BR />When the Committee on Standards and Privileges commenced the review, it said that it ultimately wanted to produce a new draft code of conduct that was”
“Yes, it is in the report, but it also very clearly points out that it is a matter for the Executive in relation to the ministerial code, and that is where the issue lies. It is for the First Minister and the deputy First Minister to make any changes necessary; it is not within the power of the Committee to do that in the code. <BR /> <BR />Steven Agnew spoke about the application of the code to circumstances where it was unclear in what capacity a Member was acting. However, the code will apply in such circumstances, unless it is clear that a Member was acting exclusively in another capacity. <BR /> <BR />Mr McCallister raised the issues of Members acting with respect and Members' treatment of their staff. That is more complicated because, ultimately, such behaviour could become the subject of an employment tribunal.”
“Of course it is not disingenuous, Mr Speaker. The Member could have raised those issues, but he did not provide any feedback to the Committee at an earlier stage in relation to any it. He was obviously asleep at the steering wheel at the time the Committee sent out.”
“I am not sure. I have really heard enough from you, but I will give way just this once.”
“He spoke about petitions of concern, Mr Speaker, but that is not a matter that the Committee could or should address as part of the review. That is, of course, a matter for the Assembly and you as Speaker to decide on. He also raised the ministerial code. Today, we are debating the code of conduct for Members, not the ministerial code.”
“The greater clarity in the code is for Members and the public. <BR /> <BR />The former Chair, Alastair Ross, spoke about some of the problems that we had with the current code, problems that arose from ambiguities in drafting and the lack of separation of aspirational principles and enforceable rules. The new code clearly addresses that and spells it out that, while the principles are important, they are not enforceable. <BR /> <BR />My colleague Robin Newton spoke about the trust that is key to the integrity of this institution, and we believe that the new code will enhance trust in standards at the Assembly. <BR /> <BR />Mr Allister raised two issues, both of which have nothing to do with the conduct of Members.”
“The Committee also recommended that OFMDFM give consideration to whether a register of lobbyists in Northern Ireland would be appropriate or beneficial. <BR /> <BR />I now turn to some of the comments made by Members during the debate. Fra McCann pointed out that we welcomed the Independent Financial Review Panel's intention to include in its determination for the fifth Assembly mandate a provision for reducing the salary of a Member by 90% for a period during which that Member is imprisoned. Seán Rogers referred to the GRECO report on preventing corruption in legislatures, and our report takes full account of its recommendations. <BR /> <BR />Anna Lo and Sandra Overend referred to the number of inadmissible complaints received, and we hope that the new clearer code will reduce the number of those complaints in future.”
“However, it should be managed well to ensure transparency to the public, who need to be assured that undue weight is not given to the power of money behind the scenes. No one should be under the impression that it is necessary to employ the services of a lobbyist to make their views known or gain access to Members. <BR /> <BR />The Committee is satisfied that the provisions of the new code and guide are sufficient to ensure that misconduct in relation to lobbying does not occur. However, we recognise the argument for, in addition to the mandatory requirements of the code and guide, good practice guidance for Members and their staff when dealing with lobbyists. The Committee has, therefore, agreed 'Guidance for Members on Dealing with Lobbyists', which is included at annex 2 of our report.”
“Should it appear to the Committee in the future that any of the other rules in the new code would benefit from more provisions, it will table amendments to the guide for the Assembly’s approval. <BR /> <BR />Secondly, the Committee recommended that Standing Order 69, on Members' interests, be reviewed in light of the provisions of the new code and guide. The Committee has recommended that the new code and guide not come into effect until after such a review is complete. <BR /> <BR />The third issue that I want to mention is lobbying, which has caused significant concerns at other legislatures where some Members have clearly acted improperly when making representations on behalf of lobbyists. The Committee is satisfied that lobbying is a legitimate practice that is important for democracy and policymaking.”
“I thank those who took part in the debate, which has largely been positive. That reflects the constructive and consensual manner in which the Committee carried out the review. The Committee has asked the Assembly to agree the new code. I welcome the apparent support for it across the Chamber. However, the Committee has also made further recommendations, so, before I reflect on the points made during the debate, I will address some of those other issues. <BR /> <BR />I want to mention the guide to the rules. The Committee has agreed that some of the rules of conduct should be supported by more detailed requirements, revisions and guidance. The new guide to the rules, therefore, sets out such details for rules 4 to 8 of the code.”
“As the guardian of the principles of conduct at the Assembly, the Committee will consider how best to promote them and will draw attention to practices and conduct that are incompatible with them. <BR /> <BR />The Committee is confident that the new code and guide will increase the public's confidence in the probity of the Assembly and the accountability of its Members. On behalf of the Committee, I commend the report to the House.”
“For that reason, in addition to rules, the code contains a number of principles. Those principles are aspirational rather than enforceable, but are just as important. The principles reflect the fact that Members should at all times conduct themselves in a manner that will tend to maintain and strengthen the public's trust and confidence, and integrity in the Assembly. <BR /> <BR />We must not forget that Members of the Assembly can be influential leaders to whom the public often look to provide an example. We know from research that the ethical behaviour of elected representatives can have an impact on the ethical standards and norms displayed across society more generally. The Assembly should therefore encourage and expect Members to observe those aspirational principles of conduct.”
“Members must also take personal responsibility for their behaviour. No matter how comprehensive our rules, adherence to them does not absolve Members of their own personal integrity. Members must want to behave ethically and should base their behaviour not just on rules but on sound values and principles.”
“The Committee understands that. It does not assume that, if Members mechanically follow the 21 rules, all will be well and that standards at the Assembly will be unquestionable.”
“That rule recognises, in the first instance, that Members' staff must not be able to act in a manner that improperly places personal interest above public interest. It also recognises, however, the primacy of Members as the employer in ensuring that their staff behave appropriately. Members should ensure that staff working for them are aware of the provisions of the code through appropriate induction, training, management and oversight and through requiring staff to adhere to their own code of conduct. The Committee shall liaise with the Assembly Commission and others to ensure that, if possible, a code of conduct for Members' staff is agreed and introduced to have effect from the start of the next mandate. <BR /> <BR />In his poem 'Choruses from "The Rock"', T S Eliot decries those who constantly dream of:”
“Generally speaking, no difficulty arises when they do so, provided that they do not then advocate for the person who provided the benefit. However, the Committee has agreed that, in certain circumstances, the receipt of particular benefits could reasonably be thought to influence Members' actions, even when they register them and comply with the Assembly rule. The Committee agrees that the receipt of such benefits in those circumstances would be unacceptable. Our new rule addresses that and brings us into line with the rules that apply to many other public-office holders. <BR /> <BR />The new code also provides that Members shall take reasonable care to ensure that their staff, when acting on their behalf, uphold the rules of conduct.”
“I am sure that we can all think of some examples of Members making those types of comments. However, the right to freedom of expression should not be misunderstood as allowing Members to bully or harass others. Clearly, that sort of conduct is unacceptable. The new code therefore provides that Members should not subject others to unreasonable and excessive personal attack. <BR /> <BR />That rule is just one of 21 enforceable rules in the new code. Most of them replicate, clarify or amend existing rules. Others are completely new, so I will say a few words about them. The new code provides that Members must not accept any gift, benefit or hospitality that might reasonably be thought to influence their actions when acting as a Member. Up until now, it has been enough for Members simply to register the receipt of such benefits.”
“The legal position on Members' right to freedom of expression supports that principle. The law gives enhanced protection to political expression and protects not only the substance of what is said but the form in which it is conveyed. Therefore, in the political context:”
“When we participate in media interviews, attend public events, and use social media, in what capacity are we doing so? The answer, depending on the situation, is not always obvious. The Committee therefore believes that the code should continue to apply in those circumstances, unless it is clear that a Member is acting exclusively in another capacity. <BR /> <BR />The Committee gave careful consideration to the issue of Members' comments. As a point of principle, the Committee believes, and has consistently stated, that it would be entirely inappropriate for the Assembly to seek to prevent or limit the lawful expression by a Member of any political opinion. That includes opinions on social or moral issues, even when such opinions should be regarded as offensive or inappropriate.”
“There were some, including the Committee on Standards in Public Life, who told us that, in certain circumstances, private behaviour can affect the reputation and integrity of a public institution. They said that, where that happens, there can be a clear public interest in a proportionate intrusion into a Member’s private life. <BR /> <BR />We disagreed. Of course, a Member’s actions in their private life could affect public confidence in their ability to carry out their role, but that does not provide a rationale for extending the scope of the code, and its standards and rules, to their private life. That would be unfair and disproportionate, even in limited circumstances. <BR /> <BR />Having said that, it is not always easy to differentiate between a Member’s private life and their wider public life and role as a Member.”
“I also thank the former members of the Committee who contributed to the review, particularly my colleague, the previous Chairman, Alastair Ross, who carried out most of the work in relation to this. I also put on record the Committee's gratitude to the Clerk and the other Committee staff for the outstanding support they gave during the review. The collected efforts of all those involved has allowed the Committee to bring forward a new and improved code today for the Assembly’s approval. <BR /> <BR />Much of our time during the review was spent on the question of when and how the code should apply to Members. That question is not as straightforward as it might seem.”
“I join with what has been said in relation to the late Councillor John Hanna and offer the condolences of my party colleagues on his tragic death yesterday after an accident. I had the privilege of working with John for a number of years on the Northern Ireland Local Government Association, and he was an outstanding public representative. <BR /> <BR />Over the last year, the Committee on Standards and Privileges has carried out a review of the Assembly’s code of conduct and guide to the rules. I thank everyone who contributed to the review, including those who offered us evidence, those who hosted our visits and those who provided us with answers, research and legal advice.”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. Has the deputy First Minister indicated whether, as a result of his attendance at the anti-austerity rally in London at the weekend, there has been any indication that the Executive will receive any additional funding?”
“I also welcome the junior Minister to her first Question Time. Will she outline some detail of the crisis fund?”
“Minister, you referred to Northern Ireland Water and capital money for that project. Is it on your mind to provide capital money for the Duncrue Street Northern Ireland Water facility, which is at full capacity at present and in danger of not allowing any more development in the docks area?”
“I thank the deputy First Minister for his statement. I notice from the joint secretaries' progress report that cooperation on transport issues and opportunities to strengthen TEN-T applications continues. Exactly what progress has been made and what project applications are being considered for TEN-T?”
“Will the Minister tell the House about the kind of projects that the fund will invest in?”
“What interest has there been in the voluntary exit scheme from the Northern Ireland Civil Service? Is the scheme oversubscribed?”
“What has the Minister done in relation to the senior officials in the Department and the senior management in Translink who created the shambles in the first procurement process?”
“Can I too be associated with the remarks congratulating my friend the Minister on his new appointment? Since Northern Ireland has had an economic downturn across the whole Province and suffered job losses, what assessment does the Minister have for future job creation in the South Belfast constituency?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. He will be aware that South Belfast has some good examples of community engagement on race issues. What work is being done to improve and increase engagement throughout communities on race issues?”
“I thank the junior Minister for his statement to the House this morning. Many old people will welcome creative and community-based approaches to supporting old people to be independent and to live in their own homes. That would be very much welcomed. What does the junior Minister see as the most pressing risks facing our older people at this moment in time?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. In the light of it, and given the situation in which you find yourself in the Health Department, how do you view recent calls that a further £300 million should be directed towards enhanced welfare payments? Obviously, some of that money would be taken away from your Department.”
“Given this, the Committee on Procedures may wish to await the Assembly's consideration of the review of the code before bringing forward a new Standing Order in relation to the Attorney General and Members' interests.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Committee on Standards and Privileges is concluding its review of the Assembly's code of conduct. The code of conduct will not apply to the Attorney General. The majority of rules in it will not relate to Members' interests. However, the code and guide will set out categories of registrable interests. Except where these requirements can only apply to Members, the Attorney General would also be bound by them. The new code and guide would also inform the Attorney General's duties in relation to declarations of interests and paid advocacy. I expect that the existing Standing Order 69 on Members' interests will need to be amended to take account of the conclusions of the review of the code of conduct.”
“The Committee agreed that it should be able to decide whether to uphold a complaint in respect of the Attorney General and, where it upheld a complaint, it would recommend to the Assembly the imposition of a sanction. <BR /> <BR />On sanctions, the Committee said that Standing Orders should include provisions for excluding the Attorney General from proceedings of the Assembly if he failed to comply with any of these duties or for withdrawing his rights and privileges for the period of his exclusion. The Committee noted that, however, compared with Members, there were fewer rights and privileges that could be withdrawn during such an exclusion, for example, the right to salary and allowances. The Committee on Procedures has addressed these points in its report.”
“Standing Order 69 addresses the issue of Members' interests, sets out duties in relation to the registration and declaration of interests by Members and provides for a prohibition on paid advocacy. At its meeting on 13 March 2013, following a request from the Committee on Procedures, the Committee on Standards and Privileges considered the issue of the Attorney General and Members' interests. The Committee agreed that the duties for Members set out in Standing Order 69 should be extended to the Attorney General and that the Northern Ireland Assembly Commissioner for Standards should be able to investigate an alleged breach of any duty by the Attorney General in respect of Members' interests.”
“Does the Minister accept that many young junior barristers are working for the minimum wage in cases? Some of those bright young barristers will be driven out of the profession as a result of some of the cuts that the Minister has already made to legal aid. The additional level of 15% on fees will drive young people out, which will create a problem for the future of barristers at the Bar. The Minister must accept that.”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. Have there been any discussions between the board of governors of Stranmillis University College and his officials, and, indeed, is there still a suggestion of a merger with Queen's University?”