John McCallister
South Down · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“She did whatever needed to be done and nothing seemed to be too much trouble or too difficult for her to overcome. <BR /> <BR />It was very much to her credit that she was able to work and find a solution to an issue that, as we go forward, will allow us to look at different things.”
“Sometimes, one of the downsides of being in politics is that social media exposes all our lives to some really quite harsh and unkind things. I certainly am delighted that things have improved in that regard, not only with getting the Bill passed but with your father's health improving.”
“Like colleagues, I welcome the Final Stage of the Licensing Bill. Following on from Mr Ross, it is a shame that Mrs Cochrane is standing down because we could desperately do with her back here to continue the reform of our licensing laws, although that is looking like quite a big job for anybody to take on.”
“It would have been such a shame to have to have him removed on his last day. <BR /> <BR />Mr Speaker, I will begin by paying tribute to you and the respect agenda you have set in your time in the Speaker's office.”
“<BR /> <BR />In this term, I am particularly proud of the private Member's Bill to reform the way that the Assembly does its business, and I hope that the messages from all of the political parties seem to be that there is a will to have a much more collective and cohesive Executive on the other side of an election.”
“While there is partly a disappointment in some regards about what the Assembly and Executive have achieved, the one thing that they have achieved is to have got people talking from very different and difficult backgrounds. As Mr Hamilton said, it is much better having a robust debate in here than division on our streets.”
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“They will be drinking Coca-Cola. I am sure those meetings will continue. <BR /> <BR />Given the skills and talents that Mrs Cochrane possesses, I am sure that she has a very encouraging career ahead of her. The best days are very much ahead. I wish her and her family well and wish her every success and good wish. I offer her huge congratulations. I know the work it takes to get a private Member's Bill passed. She said to me a few months ago that I was not getting my private Member's Bill passed, so she does not know everything.”
“I am sure that those informal meetings may well continue over a pint at an Ulster Rugby game, although, I am sure, not with DUP members”
“Sometimes, one of the downsides of being in politics is that social media exposes all our lives to some really quite harsh and unkind things. I certainly am delighted that things have improved in that regard, not only with getting the Bill passed but with your father's health improving. That is something that we are all thankful and delighted for. <BR /> <BR />This is an important piece of legislation. It shows what the Assembly and individual Members can achieve when there is the will and drive of a Back-Bencher to solve a problem and work with others to do that and to overcome those obstacles. That is why it is important. <BR /> <BR />Like Mr Ross, I am sad that Judith Cochrane will be leaving the Assembly, and I certainly wish her every blessing and every good wish in whatever she decides to do.”
“She did whatever needed to be done and nothing seemed to be too much trouble or too difficult for her to overcome. <BR /> <BR />It was very much to her credit that she was able to work and find a solution to an issue that, as we go forward, will allow us to look at different things. Mr Beggs talked about the Kingspan Stadium, Windsor Park and possibly Casement. If we are serious in years to come about developing a product that says that we are in a place that means that we should be able to host the Rugby World Cup, all the other obstacles in our licensing laws should be dealt with. I really commend Mrs Cochrane for doing that. <BR /> <BR />I have to say also that she did so at a difficult personal time when her dad was so ill. I am delighted that he and Judith's family are here, because that is important.”
“Like colleagues, I welcome the Final Stage of the Licensing Bill. Following on from Mr Ross, it is a shame that Mrs Cochrane is standing down because we could desperately do with her back here to continue the reform of our licensing laws, although that is looking like quite a big job for anybody to take on. <BR /> <BR />When Mrs Cochrane first mentioned the crazy idea, to me, that she was going to do this, I tried to remind her that the mandate ended in March of the coming year. She identified a problem that needed to be sorted, drafted the legislation, worked with the Committee, worked with the Minister and the Department, and met all the obligations here and any obstacle that was thrown in the way, with mere things like needing to set Standing Orders aside for the day.”
“<BR /> <BR />In this term, I am particularly proud of the private Member's Bill to reform the way that the Assembly does its business, and I hope that the messages from all of the political parties seem to be that there is a will to have a much more collective and cohesive Executive on the other side of an election. I hope that that means that people start to deliver and that the Executive will be held to account by a robust opposition and, indeed, possibly by an emboldened "naughty corner", for want of a better phrase. It is important to have that challenge and scrutiny. <BR /> <BR />To everyone who is retiring, I wish you all well and every success in the future.”
“While there is partly a disappointment in some regards about what the Assembly and Executive have achieved, the one thing that they have achieved is to have got people talking from very different and difficult backgrounds. As Mr Hamilton said, it is much better having a robust debate in here than division on our streets. Through positions on various Committees, I have watched people engage. Suddenly, some of those divisions come down, because healthcare is important regardless of what side of the community you are from. What we do about tackling poverty and educational underachievement hits everyone. Sometimes, with those issues, you see that being broken down.”
“I remember vividly from nine years ago, when I was first elected, the enormous sense of pride I had in arriving at the Building for the first time as a Member and the contributions that everybody made.”
“It would have been such a shame to have to have him removed on his last day. <BR /> <BR />Mr Speaker, I will begin by paying tribute to you and the respect agenda you have set in your time in the Speaker's office. That has been an important contribution, as have the speeches you made outlining that and how we respect the diversity of our community. That has been important in the Assembly, in its culture and the feel it gives to it coming out from the prestigious office that you hold. That is important, and I wish you and your family well in your retirement. <BR /> <BR />I am, like Ms Sugden, one of those who hope to be back here in a number of weeks, and it never fails to impress any of us coming up to this Building.”
“<BR /> <BR />This is a missed opportunity. It is slightly pointless that we are changing Standing Orders for one day. It would appear that it is very much for the optics but I hope there is reassurance from the Chair or Deputy Chair that, when Royal Assent is given, Standing Orders will be amended to reflect the Bill in its entirety.”
“It was approved, it is the collective will of the Assembly, was passed and is about to be signed into law by Her Majesty The Queen. <BR /> <BR />I would not like to think that anyone would try to block primary legislation. It comes back to why I was so passionate about continuing to push the private Member's Bill on reforming the Assembly, because I knew that that was a key way of making sure that these things actually happen. <BR /> <BR />It would have been better had the Committee on Procedures looked at drafting Standing Orders very much in line with the Bill and in anticipation of it. I hope that the Committee works on that and has something very much ready for a new Committee on Procedures so that those changes in line with the Bill, if it receives Royal Assent next week, can be quickly worked on and put in place.”
“We seem to be making these changes mainly so that the Assembly can say to the public, "Well, we agreed this in Fresh Start in November, and here is March 2016, and we have delivered on it". So, we are technically going to change Standing Orders for one sitting day of this mandate. Whoever is returned here after 5 May will have to deal with that. <BR /> <BR />I hope that what was said in the intervention between Mr Kelly and Mr Allister is right and that the Chair and Deputy Chair in their reply give reassurance not only to me but to the House that this is not some type of blocking mechanism or that the Assembly and Standing Orders are at variance with the Bill. The 8% threshold was bought into by many parties.”
“The Stormont House Agreement at the end of 2014 promised changes to Standing Orders by March 2015. My Bill was being drafted and worked on throughout that time and I certainly think that, by the time it came round to Stormont House II or Fresh Start, the Bill had an impact on progressing some issues.”
“<BR /> <BR />Look at the history of the debate on opposition; it has been much talked about for many years.”
“Several things about the debate surprised me slightly. I find it slightly strange that Sinn Féin is setting so much stay in getting Royal Assent. I suppose that we should be encouraged that it deems the Queen's signature as important as that. I am led to believe that the Bill will probably get Royal Assent some time next week. We are that close to getting Royal Assent and to the Bill officially becoming an Act of the Assembly, so it seems strange that we are not making those provisions. Throughout my engagement with members of Sinn Féin during the debate, their argument against the Bill was that we could do it all by Standing Orders anyway. I would like something to give me, and colleagues, confidence, and, given that we are not doing this, I am maybe not seeing that tonight.”
“The Minister will be aware of a recent survey by KPMG about executive attitudes. The UK ranked second highest in Europe, mainly around political stability, macroeconomic stability and access to the single market. How does he think Northern Ireland would fare in such a survey?”
“That has been a testament to the work done by the Committee and other Members in debating it. <BR /> <BR />This is a good day. I know that it is not the largest piece of legislation that has ever passed through the House, but the Bill can and, I hope, will have a significant long-term effect on the way in which our children are educated and the form that that takes, on sharing and on the societal benefits that flow from that. I support the Shared Education Bill passing Final Stage.”
“All those policy initiatives have to come together to ensure that this policy and legislation can be effective, be delivered on — that is important — and add to the societal benefits that we see when we start to share our education system and improve it. Those are key aspects. <BR /> <BR />I am pleased that a provision was included in the Education Authority legislation and changes included in this Bill. I also commend the Minister for introducing the legislation and for seeking, given that it was late in the mandate, not to use the accelerated passage mechanism but to give the Bill the chance. The work that the Committee carried out for its report was also important in establishing what the legislation would look like. As a result, the Minister has a much-improved Bill.”
“That is important to recognise. <BR /> <BR />It has always been important to recognise that the legislation has to be about educational outcomes as much as anything else. It has to be for the long term and be in the DNA of our education system. Shared education cannot be just project-based or for while funding is available. There has to be change across the various sectors in the education system, with the new Education Authority and the Department of Education ensuring that the Bill becomes a meaningful piece of legislation. It must become a vehicle by which to deliver shared education and improved educational outcomes, in conjunction with area-based planning.”
“I am pleased to be asked to contribute at the Final Stage. This is important legislation. The Minister's policy objectives have been important. I think that there has been broad support round the House for that direction of travel, and sharing and building that into our education system is a good thing. It will also help to drive the efficient and effective use of resources. I am pleased that the purpose was put in the Bill at the amending stages.”
“This is his last Question Time as Education Minister: in the light of that, what will he do to make sure that his Shared Education Bill fulfils one of its purposes, namely the efficient and effective use of resources? How will he ensure that the Education Authority uses the Shared Education Bill to drive a less fragmented planning process and use it as a tool to make sure that we have the efficient and effective use of resources?”
“I am grateful to the Minister for his reply. While he does not have the figure with him, he must surely acknowledge that it is way short of the 10% recommended in Bain many years ago.”
“I commend the Assembly and Executive Reform (Assembly Opposition) Bill to the House.”
“<BR /> <BR />I am grateful to all the parties for their engagement with me in public sessions of Committee, in debate here and in private. It has been useful for the Bill. I am grateful to the Committee, the Bill team and the support that we have had. I am also grateful to my support staff of Annette, Peter and Meadhbh, all of whom have worked incredibly hard to get to this stage. I hope that the Assembly sees fit to pass the Bill tonight. Enormous work has been put into it. The course of a private Member's Bill is never particularly smooth or easy, and you have to work with all the parties involved to get something. I am happier with some bits than others, but the principle of an opposition set in primary legislation is a good one. Overall, this should be a good day for the Assembly.”
“He said that he would have gone further; he would like to see the abolition of petitions of concern — I remind him that four petitions of concern were used against parts of the Bill — and the abolition of the need to define yourself as unionist, nationalist or other. As I said in my opening remarks, there is a debate to be had on that. There is a debate to be had not only in unionism about why nationalism is still so wedded to that concept but also in nationalism about having the confidence to want to see change over time. That is a debate for another day. I was keen for it to be in Bill and for us to have that debate. I probably never expected to win that argument, but I was keen for it to be part of it.”
“When it comes to things such as collective Cabinet government, the one thing that I am proud of is that the Bill has firmly put that into people's psyche, as they are talking about it. I know that we have to move towards the Member's own Act about getting Departments to cooperate. The Government have to have a purpose and a direction and look as though all their members are putting their shoulder to the wheel.”
“<BR /> <BR />Mr Allister mentioned Sinn Féin wanting to be the effective Leader of the Opposition in the Republic but welcomed the progress made with the Bill. His important point about how we reconnect this place and capture the public's confidence again so that we can deliver good government, held to account by a robust opposition, presents a huge challenge for the House. <BR /> <BR />Mr Agnew said that he is proud that we have come this far but frustrated that we have not gone further. I share some of that frustration. He knows that, when it comes to issues such as designation or changes to the petition of concern mechanism, he and I very much share the same views.”
“I know that sometimes when the Assembly scrutinises legislation, we see it as its best. We see an engaged Committee. We see amendments being tabled and an Assembly debating an issue that it understands. It is important to note that, in a conversation that I had last week, a Minister said that Ministers are at their most vulnerable when bringing legislation through the House, because Members can table amendments and garner support for them. That is an important part of the process. I know that the Member at least agrees with the point that, when the Assembly does legislate and scrutinise, it is probably one of its more admirable functions. At times, a lot of our dysfunctionality can be on the governance side — on the Executive. Those are the challenges that we have to meet.”
“The trouble with our system is that at times we have had Government and opposition, but they have all been the one people. That is when you look as though you are a dysfunctional mess, and that has to change. The Government obviously want to hold on to their office, so one of the key roles of an opposition, as was said, is to drive a functioning Government. An opposition, if it is looking like a credible alternative, puts enormous pressure on and drives into that functioning Government a consensus that may not need to be there under another system. That is important. <BR /> <BR />Mr Allister happily said that this may not have been the Bill that he would have written, and I should probably take that as a compliment in some respects. I do, however, know where he is coming from.”
“The move to the 8% threshold is a major success, in that it reduces the level at which an opposition can be formed and triggers opposition rights on the Business Committee. He puts it very well when he says that the transfer of responsibilities motion will bear fruit further down the line. That is an important point. <BR /> <BR />In response to Mr McCartney's point about the Public Accounts Committee, I say that even recommendations from groups such as the World Bank all very much point towards having the opposition chair the PAC as being the model of best practice. His party colleagues made much of presenting alternatives in the Republic of Ireland's election. They said that they opposed things such as water charges, and, indeed, they opposed Irish Water being a body altogether. Opposition gave them the space to do that.”
“I would like to have put limits on the d'Hondt mechanism and changed the way we run the Chairs and all of d'Hondt as one piece. I would have liked the change on designation; I am happy and comfortable to move away from that. I would like to have gone to weighted majority vote and I think that those things, over time and at some point in the future, will happen. I think that the Bill, in those terms, has set off a useful debate. <BR /> <BR />Mr Lunn mentioned that the opposition proposal was largely intact, and I am grateful to him for all his help and support. He has more faith in this process than in Fresh Start; that seemed to be a recurring theme.”
“The clauses that are missing are the renaming of the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister as the "Office of the First Ministers"; the single legal entity government; two clauses on technical groups; and one on membership of the opposition that was a change to the Committee. However, the broad substance of how an opposition would work — speaking rights, chairing the Public Accounts Committee, the rights that it would acquire, financial obligations and speaking times — all remains in the Bill. So, in opposition terms, it is still a significant reform to get through the Assembly. <BR /> <BR />I am delighted with getting so much of the first start of the Bill included. I happily concede that I would have liked much more of the schedule to go through.”
“As I said at Second Stage on that argument about Westminster legislation, the House of Lords made it quite clear, in the several debates where the Lord Empey tried to introduce that, that it would not do it without this Assembly's saying. That is a sign that the Assembly has matured. <BR /> <BR />On the point about the opposition, I entirely accept that the original schedule has gone. I will cover Mr Agnew's points on this. However, we have established a principle of asking for matters to be moved from excepted to reserved status, and that is important. On the broad substance of the Bill, I have copies of the Bill at introduction and as it stands before us. There are 24 clauses in the original and 18 in the one before us.”
“I am grateful to the Member. I notice that he did not deny the allegation of being a swinger; he seemed to accept it with some relish. <BR /> <BR />On the substance of his point about Westminster versus here, I am never convinced that Westminster has served him or his party that well at times. Consider the changes to OFMDFM that were made at St Andrews. It has proven very difficult for the Ulster Unionists to counteract the argument that you need to vote for the larger party or a member of Sinn Féin is going to be the First Minister. That is very difficult. So, they are trusting Westminster with this when we have the power to do it.”
“Lord Empey's amendments, which he cited, mentioned speaking rights, which are included at clauses 7 and 8 in this Bill; supply days, which are at clause 8; chairmanship and deputy chairmanship of the Public Accounts Committee, which is at clause 9; and making speaking rights proportionate, which are at clauses 7 and 8. The one bit that Lord Empey had wanted was that one Member could form the opposition, and I probably attempted to do that, setting the threshold a bit higher with technical groups. He voted against it, but —”
“That means that, if you count in the 28 Members of Sinn Féin and 38 Members of the DUP, everyone else around here becomes an essential swing voter. It is up to the other parties to decide what stands or falls. If one of the large parties says no to everything and the other says yes, it is left to the SDLP, Ulster Unionists, TUV, Greens, Alliance and the independents to swing the vote. It is not all about whether or not there is a division between the two main parties in government, as there is an opening which we can use to get things through. That is why working with all the parties is important to deliver that. <BR /> <BR />I must say to Mr Kennedy that I have never been entirely sure what he wants or expects an opposition to look like.”
“This Assembly is probably the most powerful devolved institution in the United Kingdom, and, if we get a functioning Government, we could be in a position to get more responsibilities, such as tax-varying powers. I think that delivering in good government is critical. <BR /> <BR />As regards Mr Kennedy's comments, I may be able to quote him now. He made a point about needing the backing of the two big parties. It is fair to say that Sinn Féin set out its position back in mid-November, around the beginning of Fresh Start, and it has not changed from that position. To their credit, that made it quite easy for me, because I knew exactly where they stood, and I expect them to push the vote to a Division today.”
“Sorry, I missed hearing who it was from, but I think it is a brilliant quote because it covers the argument as to why we need an opposition in here. <BR /> <BR />I listened to Mr Attwood talk about the principles of the Good Friday Agreement. I am probably one of the few unionists who openly says, when anybody is listening, that I am a supporter of the Good Friday Agreement; I voted for it in 1998 and have never changed my mind. People born on the day when the Good Friday Agreement was signed will be old enough to vote in the 5 May election. So it is fair to say that they have come of age, and we have a chance today to show that we have maybe at least matured and are changing. <BR /> <BR />The Member made reference to other business going on at Westminster.”
“Alex Attwood, Robert Kennedy, Danny Kennedy — I will try to hoke out a Danny Kennedy quote later on.”
“I liked very much Mr Attwood's quote about demanding the right to dissent as there is much to dissent from. I think that it is very true that when we look —”
“I know what pressure some of the Bill team were under, and I support Mr Attwood's words.”
“<BR /> <BR />I am grateful to Mr Attwood and the SDLP for the way that they engaged, particularly at Consideration Stage and Further Consideration Stage. He made a point about the workings of the Bill Office and how incredibly hard they worked. I was working on amendments with some of the Bill team here and you would have thought that it was the middle of the day, but it was something like 10.45 pm and they were still working incredibly hard on those amendments. Mr Attwood, other parties and I made amendments, and the commitment is incredible. That highlights why we need a legislative timetable, and why I am so pleased that that is included in the Bill.”
“I am grateful to colleagues who have participated in the debate, many of whom have participated from the outset and have spoken in every debate that we have had on the Bill. <BR /> <BR />I will turn to a few of the comments and respond to them. Mr Sheehan responded on behalf of the Committee. It is important to have it on record that I am incredibly grateful to the Committee, its membership and its support staff for the work that they did. I am also grateful to the witnesses who came forward and gave evidence or written submissions to the Committee. That was an invaluable process in shaping some of the thought processes, listening and asking how some of the language that we were using fitted in with some of the model. I am grateful to Mr Sheehan and the AER Committee for that process.”
“I am grateful to the Member for giving way. The Member will probably be familiar with the Northern Ireland Act, many parts of which talk about Standing Orders and which is very prescriptive. As has been said here many times, the advantage of the Bill is that it engaged the Assembly in the process and made sure that everybody could shape and look at what is happening, not by somehow having Standing Orders drawn up. Indeed, after Stormont House, Standing Orders were not drawn up, and, as Mr Kennedy pointed out, that failed to be delivered.”
“That is what this does. <BR /> <BR />We, as an Assembly, have to mature. Today is a good day for the Assembly. It is a good day to pass the Bill and show that we are fit to reform, that we are ready for reform and that we are capable of reform. That is a huge milestone for the Assembly.”
“A PR electoral system will virtually always give you a coalition and will sometimes give you quite difficult decisions to make, as we have seen from our friends in the Republic of Ireland. All those things and all those safeguards are there. <BR /> <BR />There has been broad agreement from all parties. Most of the disagreements between Sinn Féin and me have not been about what an opposition looks like. Instead, they have been about how we get there; either through legislation or Standing Orders. I come back to the point that legislation would enshrine it. Some would debate whether that legislation should be passed at Westminster. Why would you do it in Westminster when you have the power to do it here? Westminster legislation would just say what the Northern Ireland Act 1998 says, namely:”
“For example, speaking rights are in clauses 7 and 8; supply days are in clause 8, the chairmanship and deputy chairmanship of the Public Accounts Committee is in clause 9 and changes to speaking rights being down to party strength is in clauses 7 and 8. The Bill also gives you the ability to question and hold to account. It gives you a place called "opposition", giving our electorate the chance to change our Government, which is something that has been sadly lacking to this point. <BR /> <BR />I am very pleased with what has come out at the other end of so many hours of debate and scrutiny. Some of the Committee Stage was useful for me. I listened to the debate on whether to change some of the language in the Bill so that it fits in more with our model of government.”
“Some of the debate that exercised the Committee for a considerable time was on the way that we might elect a Speaker in the future, including moving to weighted majority, holding a secret ballot and how you would run that process. That was the subject of significant debate from the Committee, academics and across the board. That has been a good process for our politics in Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />After all of the votes, we have emerged with the main components of the Bill strengthened and enhanced. All of the things that people and Members associate with opposition are included in the Bill.”
“As we want to develop, mature and see those changes over time, we have to look at how we progress that issue. The difficult one for nationalism to ask itself is this: why stick to the system of designation when even the Human Rights Commission questions whether it is truly compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights? Those are things that we will have to revisit at a future date. It was always aspirational for me to have that included in a schedule to trigger that debate.”
“The Bill established important debates on a collective cabinet Government, petitions of concern and whether, in our new system, some of the arrangements from Fresh Start will mean more than just, "Do not table something that will annoy me, and then I will not have to use a petition of concern". Will we get to the point where it will mean more than that? The very useful part of having that debate, here and in Committee, is that it has entered the mindset and political talk of many parts of our society. Those are conversations and reforms that we will have to revisit. <BR /> <BR />I would have liked to see changes on designation. We, as unionists, have to ask ourselves this: why is nationalism, as a collective, still so afraid of that change?”