Basil McCrea
Lagan Valley · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I carried on that work on the all-party group on science and technology, and, when I am gone from this place, I hope that those who are still here will take up the challenge of science and technology, because that is where the jobs are and that is where the future is.”
“I rise for the last time to address the Assembly. I thank the people of Lagan Valley for the privilege of representing them over the past nine years. It seems like only yesterday that I first got here, awestruck by the names on the doors of people that I had seen only on television, and, yet, here we are.”
“— what matters is to have the courage to go on. I will go on. I will leave this place with my head high, with my colours flying, with my dignity intact and with all conviction about what is good for Northern Ireland. In conclusion, two roads diverged in the woods, and I took the road less travelled. That has made all the difference.”
“Despite the heckling from the man in front of me, I shall ask a question of the Minister in two parts. First, would the Minister care to tell us what was his personal favourite of the many events at the Northern Ireland Science Festival?”
“I am grateful to the Member for the explanation, and I have no doubt that her efforts to draft the amendment were well-intentioned. Maybe she can help me on this, if it has come up in the discussions.”
“Actually, when I read it, I understood it to be the other way round. However, I am happy that it is a more general stance and is not limited to single acts. <BR /> <BR />As regards amendment No 2, I approached the concept in a sympathetic manner, but I am not convinced that we can properly define an imbalance of power.”
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“— what matters is to have the courage to go on. I will go on. I will leave this place with my head high, with my colours flying, with my dignity intact and with all conviction about what is good for Northern Ireland. In conclusion, two roads diverged in the woods, and I took the road less travelled. That has made all the difference.”
“I carried on that work on the all-party group on science and technology, and, when I am gone from this place, I hope that those who are still here will take up the challenge of science and technology, because that is where the jobs are and that is where the future is. <BR /> <BR />I also enjoyed my time on the Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure. I believe passionately in the arts. Arts are not an overhead. They inspire us, they unite us and they give us hope. We need to do more for the arts. Hopefully, whoever follows me will also take the lead in championing the arts. <BR /> <BR />I am proud of what I achieved and of what I tried to achieve. For those who follow me now and in the future, I will give them a famous quotation from Winston Churchill:”
“I rise for the last time to address the Assembly. I thank the people of Lagan Valley for the privilege of representing them over the past nine years. It seems like only yesterday that I first got here, awestruck by the names on the doors of people that I had seen only on television, and, yet, here we are. <BR /> <BR />The highlight of my time here was when I chaired the Committee for Employment and Learning. There were some great colleagues there: Jim Allister, before anybody would talk to him; Fra McCann, a great inspiration; Chris Lyttle; and Pat Ramsey. Those were good days. I enjoyed dealing with the challenges of further and higher education, youth unemployment, NEETs and careers advice. That was real politics. It was what I enjoyed.”
“Despite the heckling from the man in front of me, I shall ask a question of the Minister in two parts. First, would the Minister care to tell us what was his personal favourite of the many events at the Northern Ireland Science Festival? Secondly, one of the events that I was at talked about the huge increase in video as part of the Internet and how the fibre-optic networks are now at capacity. Does he think there is any strategic necessity for Northern Ireland to invest in further fibre-optic networks?”
“I think that it is a much more fundamental issue than that. <BR /> <BR />My conclusion on this is that my reason for speaking tonight, at this late hour, is just to make sure that, in the future when I bring up the issue of cyberbullying with the Justice Department, no one can say to me, "You did not deal with it during the education debate". It is a wide-ranging issue. It is something that schools are fully involved in. It is not exclusively for them. I think that, in the fullness of time, we will have to tackle this particular issue with many more powers than we are currently looking at.”
“I think that there is an issue in that and that schools have to play a part, whether it takes place in the school premises or school time. <BR /> <BR />I move on to the last amendment that I want to talk about, amendment No 12, which seeks to give examples of motivation. I have to say that the ones listed are not, in my experience, the core causes of bullying. Most of the issues that I experience or am aware of come from a power for supremacy. It is the jungle of the playground; it is people trying to assert themselves in what might be a throwback to former times. It is not for any of the more objective reasons that we list there. Whilst I can accept the fact that the amendment says "may", I will put on the record that I do not think that this really gets to the core of why people are bullied.”
“<BR /> <BR />I struggled to find out the exact difference between amendment Nos 7 and 8. I guess, from the comments of others, that if we go with amendment No 7, so be it. Once again, I point out that the issue should be how we deal with cyberbullying. I know that in legislation, when we consider these issues, there is a determination to keep within the areas that are in locus — in other words, within the school. The problem that I see about bullying is that it does not confine itself to time or space. An awful lot of bullying that goes on amongst pupils takes place outside school hours, but the effects are, indeed, felt in the educational achievement of the person affected and their mental and physical well-being.”
“I am grateful to the Member for the explanation, and I have no doubt that her efforts to draft the amendment were well-intentioned. Maybe she can help me on this, if it has come up in the discussions. One of the real concerns that I have about bullying is that the old idea of it being a one-on-one experience, where one person was having a go at another person, seems to me not to reflect what happens in real life. Quite often what you get, particularly in cyberbullying, is that multiple people will pick on an individual. So, one individual may or may not be strong, but they are, in effect, set upon by a group of people. That is a very serious issue, and one that we have to look at. As I said, I will consider what the Member has said about her amendment. It is difficult to see how we would actually organise that, but I will think about it.”
“I just think that it is a pretty complicated interaction, particularly as people go through the changes in life that they will experience in school.”
“Actually, when I read it, I understood it to be the other way round. However, I am happy that it is a more general stance and is not limited to single acts. <BR /> <BR />As regards amendment No 2, I approached the concept in a sympathetic manner, but I am not convinced that we can properly define an imbalance of power. I remember, when I was on the Education Committee, that I was introduced to a nursery school, where one of the learning experiences was that teachers would put objects in a sand pit and you could rummage around to see what you could find. That was very educational for the children until one of them picked up a brick and managed to hit another child with it. I wonder whether that was an imbalance of power or what was going on. You get into the issue of some people having verbal skills where others have physical skills.”
“Whilst I welcome the fact that we have put bullying on the agenda and indicated that we will deal with it, we will have to return to the subject at another time, presumably in another mandate, for those of us who will be here. <BR /> <BR />Let me deal with amendment No 1. Mr Lunn helpfully identified for me that the change includes:”
“I must say that, when I borrowed the notes from Mr Rogers, he gave them to me with a warning that I was not to speak for too long. I will try to honour the commitment. <BR /> <BR />I made a special point of being here to talk about the Bill because I mentioned during a previous debate that I was particularly concerned with cyberbullying. When I raised the issue, the Minister said that he thought it was one for the criminal justice system and a justice Bill. I remain of the opinion that there is great danger in giving people responsibility without giving them the tools to deal with the matter. Although I will mention a number of amendments, my key concern is cyberbullying. Mr Lunn, I think, mentioned that the estimated amount of cyberbullying is probably understating the really serious situation that exists out there.”
“I wonder whether his use of technology includes Periscope.”
“— and they will do more. On that basis, I commend the Clerk and his team for the excellent, if slightly lengthy, report that they have produced.”
“The biggest problem that we have is that we have to get people who may not think that arts is for them to go along, because if they go along, they absolutely enjoy it. They feel that it is part of them —”
“<BR /> <BR />I think that I owe some Members an apology, because it was me who put a hand up and said, "I think we should have two hours for this debate, because I don't get in all the time". Looking around me, I realise that my concern was, perhaps, a little exaggerated. I need not have worried about being able to get a chance to speak. Do you know what? One of the greatest things that I heard was something that the Minister said. I think I am right in saying this — she can correct me if I am wrong — but, when we had the rally in defence of the arts, she said, "Isn't it good that we get cross-party support?". I want to have cross-party support for the arts. It should be neutral; it should be inclusive; it should be for everybody.”
“Nicely. It was brilliant. You get engagement and you get people involved. <BR /> <BR />Of course, there will be different cultural interpretations. I spoke to the Minister about Laurence McKeown's play. I did not even know who Laurence McKeown was, but I thought his play was good. I understood that he knew what he was talking about, and I thought that it was challenging. <BR /> <BR />Do you know what? There are other things. Just before I came down, I saw that Queen's is putting on a fusion play. It is going to involve people from a flute band mixing with people involved in traditional music. All of these issues are good. You are not trying to supplant somebody else's culture. You are trying to get involved in it, to understand it and be part of it.”
“The Member may be surprised to know that I am aware of the issue. Maybe we should name the big hall beside it, and call it the Alexander whatever. I do not care. Do you know what really matters to me? It is not about buildings; you need to have buildings, but it is about people engaging, whether on a voluntary or a professional basis. One of the best things that I was ever involved with — the thing that got me started in this — was a show called 'The 25th Annual Putnam Country Spelling Bee'. A great actor from this place — from Belfast Met, actually — came through; Gerard McCabe got me up on the stage and made me look an ass.”
“I have to say to you that I did not think that the circus was really art. Boy, did I have my eyes opened when I went down and saw it and all of the things that it could do. Anything that inspires young people, gives them confidence and lets them believe in themselves, whether it be riding a unicycle or being able to go up and down one of those ropes is fantastic. I really think that we should be champions for the arts. They are not party political. They are not even from one culture.”
“It was absolutely fantastic, and it just shows you how the arts really inspire us about what we can do. <BR /> <BR />What other things did I see? Burns Night at the Ulster Hall. The only thing that put me off slightly was that our Chairman was sitting in front of me. He was getting in the way of my view. Apart from that, it was really good, and some of us even tried to take photographs — I am not sure whether you tried to take photographs, Chairman — but it was wonderful. This is what we should be expressing to people: look at how good the arts are. <BR /> <BR />Therefore, when you get to the issue of inclusion, I think that the biggest thing that I found — this probably shows what a minnow I am when it comes to these things — is that so many people were doing so much already. I went to see the Belfast Community Circus School.”
“That play was by Marie Jones, and it raised really interesting moral questions about how we deal with these things. That is what it is about the arts. They unite, they inspire, they innovate and they bring us together. We should do more of them. We should look at the jobs that they give and the things that they do to bring us all together and at how they enhance tourism: all of those good things. <BR /> <BR />Some other things that I enjoyed in my tour through this was that I got to see 'All Through the House'. That was good. That was at the Crescent Arts Centre. I enjoyed that. Just recently, we had the Lilliput Theatre Company down from the Playhouse in Derry/Londonderry. That was brilliant. It was what you can expect when you are in a hospital if you have learning disabilities. The company put it on and produced it itself.”
“Worthy although it is, a Committee motion and report, even if it were about the discovery of life on Mars, could be made to sound dull. The thing that I like about the arts is that they are so fantastic. The highlight for me — I do not know whether it was the same for others — was when we went to see rice being cooked on the stage. Do you remember that, with all of the drummers — 12 out of 15 of in the world — and we sat mesmerised for an hour and a half, and we did not even know the tune? Fantastic. <BR /> <BR />I see that Mr Dunne is laughing. I was down at his great theatre to see a play by Laurence McKeown called 'Those You Pass on the Street'. Fantastic. Absolutely thought-provoking. This is what we want to see. I have also seen 'Fly Me to the Moon'. That was good.”
“I think that we would all be the better for it.”
“Would it not be better if we could argue for people's human rights to try and find a better way forward and to take on board people's concerns? I absolutely understand that people have certain objections, and they want to make sure that there are safeguards in place, but would it not be better if we could find a composite way forward? <BR /> <BR />In conclusion, I think that it is a good thing that we have had the debate. I know that some people have argued that we should not have introduced amendments at this late stage. In fact, I seem to recall in this Bill that there was that discussion early on, but, on balance, I think that it is good to talk. It is good to have the debate, and I really wish that the DUP, which, I am quite sure, has the ability to argue its case, would take part in the debate in this place.”
“That is what we should be addressing. Those are very real issues. Those are not things that should be ducked When it comes to that in the debate, one of the things that the judge opined was that, sometimes, when it comes to these difficult decisions, we as legislators are not capable of making appropriate decisions, because we adopt fixed positions. What they say is, "Maybe the independence of the judiciary is the right way forward. Maybe we will go to the Supreme Court. Maybe we will go to the European Court of Human Rights. Maybe that is where we will sort it out". But is it not something of an indictment on us all that we cannot deal with a situation that just affects a relatively small number of people who are in distress?”
“I signed Mr Agnew's amendment, although it seems to have gone unnoticed by just about everybody, so maybe I should have kept quiet about it. I signed it just to say that we should not be standing alone. There is a lady who makes huge arguments that she is going to highlight — "expose", I think, is her terminology — those MLAs who dare to vote for fatal foetal abnormality or any of these issues at the election. Let me tell you: I am standing up here, and that is the way I am voting, because I do not think that that type of language is a good way to go forward about such a sensitive situation. If you want to put a point of view across, you are entitled to put a point of view across, but such language is destructive, uncaring, unfortunate and simply not right. <BR /> <BR />On the current law, the judgement states:”
“Mr McNarry made a heartfelt plea concerning a person who decides that they should carry the baby to term, and maybe it lives for one minute or maybe it does not, or whatever. Those are choices that people should have. Equally, people should have choice if they do not want to carry the baby — a baby who does not have life. The humane thing to do is not to put them on a boat to England and say, "Look after yourself"; the humane thing is to give them care and attention in their local facilities, with their family and friends around them, treat them with respect, treat them as human beings and try to make life better for them in what is a terrible, terrible situation. <BR /> <BR />I come now to the other point that we are talking about.”
“The Member may have the advantage over me of having medical training. All that I am doing is reading from paragraph 160 from Justice Horner's judgement. If she has got an issue with his judgement that the doctors know when a foetus has got an FFA, that is something that should be taken up through the Justice Department. <BR /> <BR />My argument — the argument that was put in front of the courts; the argument that Sarah Ewart brings forward — is that there is no life to defend. That is something that is absolutely testified by medical professionals. Some people suggest, "If you don't like one doctor, you can go to another". I do not know how you do that; maybe that is what happens in the legal profession. I trust medical practitioners. If a medical practitioner says, "This is the condition", all I want is for the person to have choice.”
“So for those of you who say, as I think —”
“It may be challenged, but this is what we have at the moment:”
“It is a really serious issue, and I do not think that we are doing it properly. <BR /> <BR />On the issue about fatal foetal abnormalities, I know that I have said it before, but let me read out the judgement. This is what we are talking about. This is a legal position.”
“That is not the right way to go forward either. <BR /> <BR />When I look at what we might do in this place, I think of a famous comment from Mr Nesbitt. I am not chiding him, but I will just put this back to him. I suspect that this place will find itself on "the wrong side of history". This is not what the younger generation of our place wants. They look around and they see us making decisions that, frankly, they do not agree with. <BR /> <BR />You always get a little bit reluctant when you are talking about these issues, but there is an age-old saying, since we are talking about age-old sayings, and I am forced to ask myself, "I wonder what the debate would be like if men could get pregnant?". We are all standing here pontificating, saying that you can do this and can do that.”
“This is deeply traumatising and an absolutely awful position to be in, and we ought to be a more humane society. <BR /> <BR />Some of the arguments that were put forward included, "We are not going to introduce the 1967 Act" and "This would be the slippery slope that we will be on". The evidence in front of the court says that there is no evidence that the law in Northern Ireland has resulted in any reduction in the number of abortions obtained by women from Northern Ireland. There are no reductions. This law in this place does not stop abortions. What it does is that it makes it more dangerous. It forces people to go and take other steps that they should not have to take. This is not the correct way forward, and it disproportionately affects people who are on lower incomes or who are from disadvantaged backgrounds.”
“Do you know what would have happened if she had not gone to the Lagan Valley and the Ulster but had gone to the Royal? She would have got a termination. It would not have been an emergency position. I look at that case, and that informs me about how I would try to deal with matters humanely and sensitively. <BR /> <BR />For those of you who have declared yourselves to be Presbyterians, like Sarah Ewart and her mother, Jane, I have to say that I have never met two people who look more like Presbyterians than the two of them. They are stalwarts of the church; good people in a horrible situation. They came to this place asking for help. They came along and said, "Look, this is horrendous". It is not just a case of saying, "You can carry it for another three or four months. What does it matter?".”
“<BR /> <BR />When you go across, and you do eventually get help, and you do have a termination because of anencephaly, you then say, "I would like to bring back my twins". Ms Lo brought the point up that the question that you are asked is, "Why do you want to bring them back?". The answer is, "Because I want to bury my children". That is why they want to bring them back. What question does the airline ask? The airline asks, "Are they in formaldehyde?". What sort of a question is that? <BR /> <BR />The only way that the couple could bring back their babies was by dressing them and putting them in a suitcase. Do you know what happened when they went to pick up that suitcase as it was going round the carousel? The suitcase fell off. Can you imagine the distress and the trauma?”
“You are going through to your second trimester scan, and you think that everything is fine. You are getting excited, and you are told that there may be a problem. <BR /> <BR />You go to another hospital — let us call it the Ulster — and you are told, after a few days, "Actually, we think that there is a problem". You ask, "What are the options?". The answer is, "We cannot give you advice". It is now 21 weeks, and you only have three weeks before you can go and get a termination within the 24-week limit. Who is going to give you advice? Who do you turn to? Nobody will give you advice, so you end up, as a mother of some children, having to get time off, having to find the money to go across to England and having to find somebody who will give you a hospital to go to, because late abortions are not that easy to find.”
“A certain Member — I think that it was this Member anyway — talked at the start about the fact that hard cases do not make good laws. Yet, on earlier amendments to the Bill, we talked about Clare's law — I think that the Member brought forward that as well — and that is an example of where individual cases make a difference. Earlier, I heard Mr Frew talk at length about the stories of domestic violence that affected him and how that formed his opinions. <BR /> <BR />I will talk not about Sarah Ewart or her mother Jane, whom I have spoken to — I do not know whether others have done so — but about Chris and Laura, constituents of mine, who, after their 20-week scan in my local hospital, Lagan Valley, got told this rather unwelcome news: we think that there may be a problem. This is what nobody wants to hear.”
“Absolutely, Mr Speaker, but I think that I can put forward an argument on the amendment. The point that I was dealing with on the amendment was that the Member argued that this is not properly defined, and I am trying to establish whether, if it could be amended at the next stage of the Bill, that would be acceptable. I will move on having made my point. <BR /> <BR />In putting forward some other arguments, I will say that what happens in this place is that contentious debates tend to go nowhere, because they tend to be argued from black and white positions. What we have to recognise is that, in real life, there are no black and white positions: there are people; and there are tragedies. This is our responsibility.”
“Mr Speaker, I am grateful for your direction, but I will say to you that I think that I can put forward an argument. I accept that I do not have the legal training —”
“No, you are not answering the question put to you. In the Bourne case — the Bourne exceptions — this was a legal finding. This was a finding that rape was committed. This was the definitive case in 1938, and Dr Bourne was not convicted. That was a legal finding. The rape was a legal finding. Do you accept that, in those circumstances, that finding was correct? That is what you have to decide.”
“I wanted to ask him, from a legal position, whether he accepts that, if it was subsequently established that there was rape, that would be a defence for a consultant who carried out an abortion? Does he accept Regina v Bourne? Does he accept that, in 1938, when a 14-year-old girl was gang-raped by five soldiers, the eminent consultant who carried out the abortion was not convicted because of that defence. Does he accept that, if rape is established, that is a defence? It is not about whether we are able to establish it or how it is drafted because that is for the courts. In an instance where there is rape or incest, is that not a defence? <BR /> <BR />I have to say —”
“I am quite happy to let you intervene, but I will ask that question, through you, Mr Speaker, because we did not finish on it. We talked about rape. He argued that it was not possible in many cases to decide whether or not there was rape and that it would not be possible to do that within the term.”
“Yes. In principle, would you support that stance if it could be drafted correctly?”
“<BR /> <BR />When it comes to Mr Allister, this is where I start to have an issue. This is a man who undoubtedly has a great grasp of legal parlance and argument. Instead of engaging in the substance of what we are talking about, he sought to shred the amendment. He went through it saying, "This would not work", "That would not work", and, "That is not the correct way", yet, time and time again, he is asked —”
“I think it is a change in position. Yes, it may well be to do with elections, but this is a political place, so why would it not? <BR /> <BR />There are some other contributions that I want to lead on to. I thought there was a very balanced view from the UUP — from Mr Kennedy and Mr Nesbitt. I detected that, whilst it was not a change of opinion, it was certainly a consideration of the point and was put forward particularly well. When it comes to those in the SDLP, a party that is looking to bring forward new and younger people and to show some way that Northern Ireland is moving forward, I say to you that I suspect you will be disappointed in how your message is received by your younger voters. Of course, you do not care what I think, but I am entitled to give you my opinion.”
“It has been a long night. I note that some of the Benches are emptying. I have to say it is a great disappointment to me that the DUP, having spoken once, would not speak again, because I know there are people on the Benches who have heartfelt opinions on the matter. I also think it is disappointing that, on a matter that is discussed widely, no interventions would be taken. In fact, there was a time when the Speaker had to say, "Would the people in the back corner stop talking amongst themselves? We have to speak to the entire Chamber". <BR /> <BR />This is an important debate. I was disappointed with some elements — maybe that is the way — but heartened by others. Actually, for what it is worth, I think it is progress that the DUP is considering some form of working party. I will look forward to seeing how that comes forward.”
“They cannot survive on a ventilator. This is the absence of life, and there are a number of other conditions that are medically adjudicated to mean that the baby will not survive — it is not live. On that condition, given the trauma that some mothers go through, surely we should have a degree of sympathy and say that, in those circumstances, however you want to draft the amendment, we should do what is kind and humane for the mother.”
“Absolutely, Mr Speaker. I am sure that we are all mindful of people looking in, and I think that we have tried to deal with matters in a judicious manner. <BR /> <BR />Let me just say this to the Member who has spoken: in response to Mr Agnew's intervention, the challenge was that, if there is a flaw in the drafting of the amendment because you feel that it does not sufficiently tighten it down, it can be changed. You say that doctors are not infallible. This is a key point. Let me read out what anencephaly is, and I apologise if it offends anybody. This is the medical condition that Sarah Ewart's baby had. It is a condition that is characterised by the absence of the brain and the cranium above the base of the skull. There is absolutely no prospect of life. It is not something for conjecture. It is not a severe disability.”
“That is what the people who have tabled the amendments are about. It is not right that a woman should be expected, against her wishes, to carry to term a baby that is dead.”
“The argument that the Member has spent the last 10 minutes putting forward may well be accurate, but it is irrelevant to what has been put forward. The judgement is:”