Judith Cochrane
East Belfast · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“<BR /> <BR />If I may, Mr Speaker, I want to mention one other thing that gave me some added focus as the Bill progressed. Many of you will know that, just as I was launching my consultation, I got the news that Dad was seriously ill.”
“They had a very heavy workload but made sure that they made the time to engage with me and to complete the report. I formally presented to the Committee three times, once after no sleep and wearing the same clothes as the previous day after pulling an all-nighter here, but these things happen when you give yourself tight timescales and ar…”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker. I thank all the Members for their engagement tonight. If they could all write me a job reference, that would be really helpful. If all that is true, I should be very employable. I also thank everybody else who has engaged with me during the stages of my Licensing Bill.”
“I might even manage to deliver on the goal of having a clean, tidy house, although I cannot imagine that Jonny will let me take over the role of cooking again just yet.”
“I would like to express my condolences to the family, friends and colleagues of the prison officer who, we heard, tragically died today. As we complete this Assembly term, it is clear that there is still so much to be done to stamp out dissident republicanism.”
“I thank the Member for his question. The Member will be aware that, in the recently completed roof project, the Assembly Commission took the opportunity to refurbish or replace all of the existing roof-mounted mechanical and electrical services and, where appropriate, to incorporate renewable technologies in the scheme, specifically photo…”
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“It is incumbent on the next Assembly to move forward with a full review of liquor licensing that is fit for a modern Northern Ireland. I commend the Licensing Bill to the House.”
“I believe that it is through those relationships that I have been able to garner support for the progression of my Bill against the odds. I hope that the new Assembly will see more doers who are willing to work with others and whose focus is on finding solutions and making a difference. That is what the people of Northern Ireland deserve. Remember that the world is changed by your example, not your opinion. <BR /> <BR />In closing, I thank the House for its consideration of the Bill from the preliminary stages until today, where there seems to be unanimous support. I hope that my work on the issue has brought to the fore the key limitations of the 1996 Order and how it can often be seen to hold us back in tourism and other events.”
“I might even manage to deliver on the goal of having a clean, tidy house, although I cannot imagine that Jonny will let me take over the role of cooking again just yet. <BR /> <BR />When I was elected to the Assembly back in 2011, I came here with the hope that I could make a difference, that my work ethic would not change and that I would get things done. I hope that the people of East Belfast have been satisfied with my work record; it has certainly been a privilege to serve them. I was brought up to be a doer and to get on with people and to realise that, although many of us have differing views on issues, as individuals we can still work together to get things done. I have built strong working relationships with people from every party represented in the Chamber tonight; indeed, I would say that I have made firm friends.”
“First, I thank you for your leadership. It has been a pleasure to work with you from my days on the Finance Committee with you at the start of my term and more recently on the Assembly Commission. You have done so much to encourage women in politics, and my decision to step down is not a reflection of that valuable work. I wish you well in your retirement. I know that we celebrate our birthdays a couple of days apart. On our next milestone birthdays in another 10 years, who knows where we will be? <BR /> <BR />I also want to mention my colleagues Kieran and Anna. I hope they are looking forward to a well-earned rest. I know that I am certainly looking forward to spending some more time with my family, including my girls — Emma Rose and Jessica. Who knows?”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker. I thank all the Members for their engagement tonight. If they could all write me a job reference, that would be really helpful. If all that is true, I should be very employable. I also thank everybody else who has engaged with me during the stages of my Licensing Bill. It has been a challenge, but it is one that I believe has been worthwhile and has delivered a positive outcome. Whilst I would like it to have gone further as well and to have dealt with a number of other licensing issues, time was not on my side, so it had to remain very focused on our stadia, especially with the bid for the 2023 Rugby World Cup coming up. <BR /> <BR />This is the last time I will speak in the House. I do so with mixed emotions. I trust that you, Mr Speaker, will allow me a little latitude as I make some closing remarks.”
“I ask Members to support the Final Stage of the Licensing Bill.”
“<BR /> <BR />If I may, Mr Speaker, I want to mention one other thing that gave me some added focus as the Bill progressed. Many of you will know that, just as I was launching my consultation, I got the news that Dad was seriously ill. I spent most of the autumn months in the Ulster and Mater Hospitals, often taking calls between visiting hours and drafting parts of the Bill in the relatives' room whilst waiting to hear whether Dad was safely out of surgery. As I progressed through the various stages of the Bill, he too has progressed, and I am delighted that he and my mum are here tonight. I hope that the Bill passes its Final Stage and that, when it receives Royal Assent, he will have finished his chemo and that, next season, he will be able to enjoy a pint with me at a sporting fixture in one of our major stadia. Thank you, Mr Speaker.”
“They had a very heavy workload but made sure that they made the time to engage with me and to complete the report. I formally presented to the Committee three times, once after no sleep and wearing the same clothes as the previous day after pulling an all-nighter here, but these things happen when you give yourself tight timescales and are working single-handedly to achieve something. I have learned the lesson that I am now 40 and no longer able to do the things that I did when I was 20, because it took me about a week to recover. <BR /> <BR />I also take this opportunity to thank my staff members, Matthew McKibbin and Meadhbh Keating Fitzpatrick. They not only met my demands for licensing facts at any time of the day or night but ensured that I did not drop the ball on all the other issues that I was working on in my constituency.”
“I thank that office for its assistance when I needed advice regarding timings, groupings and some wording. <BR /> <BR />I believe that, against the odds, the Licensing Bill has reached Final Stage today due to my cooperative working with the current and former Minister for Social Development, the sporting bodies, residents, the PSNI and others with an interest in licensing. I put on record a special thanks to the social policy unit team in the Department for Social Development, which has had to put up with my thinking through every eventuality of each clause or potential condition on a stadium licence and for it always being just a phone call away for me to bounce ideas off. My thanks also go to the Chair of the Committee for Social Development, the Committee and the Committee staff.”
“Those of you who know me will know that, if I am given a challenge, I will find a way to overcome it. Even the person who built the ramp that I tripped over at new year, which resulted in my breaking my arm in two places, did not manage to stop me from getting the legislation through. I was clear in my mind how I wanted to amend the 1996 Order, so my consultation was very focused and clearly defined. Indeed, the Bill before us today has changed only very slightly from its initial draft. Given that I drafted the Bill myself, I think that it is not bad going to have required only a few technical amendments to tidy it up. Given the volume of Executive legislation in the final few months of the mandate, the Bill Office was quite happy that that was the case.”
“When the Schools' Cup final is being held at Kingspan, for example, the sales points under the stands are not in use, but the corporate areas can still operate. I see this as being the type of good practice that a court might endorse on a condition on a licence. I know that the PSNI, which is a statutory consultee for a licensing application, already carries out good work in the planning of stadium events, and I hope that this constructive relationship will continue so that alcohol can be sold in a controlled but family-friendly manner. <BR /> <BR />Back in October, when I had my first meeting with secretariat staff on introducing this legislation, I think that I was told that I was bonkers and that there was no chance of progressing a private Member's Bill in that time.”
“<BR /> <BR />As an additional safeguard, a court is going to be given the power to attach any conditions it considers appropriate to the licence. That would, for example, allow the court to respond to any concerns about the sale of alcohol at certain types of events, particularly those aimed at a young audience. This court could use that power when granting or renewing such a licence or at any time during the life of the licence. <BR /> <BR />That safeguard was made explicitly clear by Mr Allister's amendment at Further Consideration Stage, which calls for a court to consider specific conditions for under-18 events. Such a condition should aim to protect young people but, at the same time, allow for flexibility based on the specific design of the stadium and how it is being run operationally.”
“<BR /> <BR />A significant sum of public money has been invested in upgrading those stadia. They have been, or are being, developed in such a way that means they are versatile in their use and will be fully equipped to host sporting, education, business, tourism and leisure events. As the law stands, however, an application for a liquor licence cannot be made for such premises. <BR /> <BR />This Licensing Bill will create a new type of liquor licence specifically for our three major outdoor stadia. The sale of alcohol must be ancillary to the normal business carried out on the premises, and that means that an outdoor stadium would not be able to sell or have the consumption of alcohol when it is not in use for an event, sporting or otherwise.”
“I would like to express my condolences to the family, friends and colleagues of the prison officer who, we heard, tragically died today. As we complete this Assembly term, it is clear that there is still so much to be done to stamp out dissident republicanism. I know that my colleague the Justice Minister will say more about that after this item of business. <BR /> <BR />The legislation regulating the sale and consumption of intoxicating liquor is in the Licensing (Northern Ireland) Order 1996. There has been very little change to that legislation over the past 19 years. However, the hospitality industry has seen considerable change in consumer behaviour and demand. Furthermore, the redevelopment of our major sports stadia to become state-of-the-art facilities was not anticipated when the Licensing Order 1996 was introduced.”
“At the outset, as a representative for East Belfast —”
“I thank the Member for his question. Whilst every effort will be made to ensure that there is appropriate support for all Committees, the reduction in the staffing complement that we have already started to progress means there will be limited opportunity to take further account of the increased remit of a number of the new Statutory Committees. <BR /> <BR />The Commission regularly reviews the services that we provide, and I am sure that the new Commission will keep this under review and reassess our budgetary priorities. I am sure that the important scrutiny work of the Committees will not be overlooked.”
“However, the release of staff across the Assembly under the voluntary exit scheme will save more than £800,000 per year, and the reduction in complement arising from the changes in the number of Committees has facilitated a significant proportion of those savings.”
“I thank the Member for his supplementary question. The savings that I will refer to are specifically in this Building, but, until the new staffing structures have been finalised, I cannot give you a completely accurate figure.”
“I thank the Member for his question. It is anticipated that the reduction in the number of Departments from 12 to nine will result in an equivalent reduction in the number of Statutory Committees. As a result, the Committee staff complement will be reduced by nine staff. In addition, the Research and Information Service staff complement has been reduced by three, and the staff complement of the Official Report has been reduced by two.”
“I thank the Member for his question. It is an interesting point. I will certainly take that back to the relevant director to raise with the head of Usher Services, as we would not want to curtail any Member going down there, and we really do not want to see you hurdling the gate either. However, we also have to maintain a balance of having the gate locked for security reasons. Yes, I will take back that issue.”
“To date, as far as we are aware, that has been successful, but planning is under way for staffing levels in the new financial year to establish how best any vacancies might be filled.”
“I thank the Member for his question. Due to budget cuts in recent years, the overall staffing of the secretariat has reduced by some 60 staff. To meet those cuts, the Commission undertook a business efficiency review programme in 2012 and also ran a voluntary exit scheme in 2015. Those have resulted in a decrease in the number of staff in the Usher Services business area. Natural wastage has also been a factor in that decrease. The head of Usher Services, in consultation with colleagues, has, however, realigned some functions in an attempt to ensure that business demand continues to be met and that there has been no impact on Members discharging their duties or restrictions placed on public access to Parliament Buildings.”
“I thank the Member for his question. I do not have those exact figures in front of me, although I have said that the costs have come down by 30%. I am sure that I can provide that information to the Member.”
“— I am sure that, if he speaks to the relevant building control staff, they will be able to assist.”
“I will not comment about hot air. The roof project incorporated an upgraded building management system that controls the heating throughout the Building. Staff monitor the heating at set points across the Building and adjust these when necessary. This system, combined with new boilers and sustainable development in the roof itself, has reduced overall energy consumption by 30%. If the Member has a specific issue with his office and does not want to continue to have to wear his thermal vest in the winter and his string vest in the summer —”
“Other energy-saving initiatives include the introduction of motion-sensor lighting, the replacement of light bulbs in the building with more energy-efficient LED bulbs, the rerouting of pipes and cables for more efficient use and the installation of mains timer sockets where appropriate. The currently displayed energy certificate for the Building gives us a D rating, and the score has improved from 97 last year to 89 this year, which is an excellent achievement for a building of this nature. The Commission will continue to explore all practical means to increase the energy efficiency of the Building.”
“I thank the Member for his question. The Member will be aware that, in the recently completed roof project, the Assembly Commission took the opportunity to refurbish or replace all of the existing roof-mounted mechanical and electrical services and, where appropriate, to incorporate renewable technologies in the scheme, specifically photovoltaic (PV) panels, rainwater harvesting and solar thermal tubes. Electricity generated by the PV panels is now being used to supplement the Building's energy supply, and some of the hot water supply is provided by means of the solar thermal power. <BR /> <BR />It was anticipated that these improvements would reduce the Building's energy consumption by a minimum of 25%, and early indications illustrate that savings in excess of that figure have been achieved to date.”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. I know that some will make the criticism that the focus is often on Belfast city centre. Can he explain the rationale for continuing to invest in Belfast city centre?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. Can he provide an update on the policy that his Department has on converting houses from oil heating when they are on the gas network?”
“The Commission therefore agreed that this was an interim measure and that a fundamental review of the entire FAPP scheme should be carried out as soon as possible in the next mandate, including any required legislative change to ensure that we have an open, transparent and fit-for-purpose scheme.”
“<BR /> <BR />The proposed changes today will ensure that all parties take their share of the cuts that the wider public sector faces but, at the same time, ensure that the proposals for additional funding for an opposition party or parties, as set out in 'A Fresh Start', are met. When considering the matter, the Commission was, however, also very aware of the changes that are likely to be brought about by Mr McCallister's Bill, by wider developments relating to the development of opposition parties and by any future cuts that might be made to the Commission's budget.”
“That proposal will mean that, should an opposition party or parties be in place after the May election, funding will be reallocated from all the other parties to help to meet the increased funding payable to an opposition party or parties. Therefore, the revised scheme includes different payment rates to cover the different scenarios of there being no opposition party or of there being one or more opposition parties. <BR /> <BR />Members will also note that the changes to the number of Departments have a further impact on the FAPP funding. Currently, no payments are made in respect of a Member who holds a ministerial post, so the reduction in the number of Ministers will also have a modest impact on the funding that is available.”
“That level of cut has been applied to the rates of assistance payable to parties under the revised financial assistance to political parties scheme. <BR /> <BR />Secondly, the Commission unanimously agreed some further revisions to the FAPP scheme to give effect to the proposals for additional funding to be made available for opposition parties in the Assembly from the start of the new mandate in May 2016. That followed the Assembly's endorsement on 8 February 2016 of the statement of proposed entitlements for an opposition, as set out in the Fresh Start Agreement, and the Assembly's call for the Speaker to take forward the implementation of those actions before the end of the mandate.”
“That purpose is replicated at article 1 of the scheme. The FAPP scheme does not provide payments to individual Members, nor does it provide payments to parties for any purposes other than assisting Members of that party to carry out their Assembly duties. <BR /> <BR />In tabling the motion today, the Assembly Commission seeks to meet two objectives. First, in line with its continuing commitment to deliver savings in its controllable running costs, the Commission unanimously agreed to reduce its operating expenditure by 5% for the 2016-17 financial year. While the Commission's budget for 2016-17 was unchanged from the 2015-16 figure, the Commission is mindful of the cuts applied across the wider public sector and agreed to reduce its controllable costs by 5%.”
“I move the motion on behalf of the Assembly Commission. Members will be aware that the Financial Assistance for Political Parties Act (Northern Ireland) 2000 provides for the Commission to bring a scheme to make such payment to the Assembly. Any payment to a political party under the financial assistance for political parties (FAPP) scheme can only be made for the express purpose set out in section 1 of the 2000 Act, and that is for assisting Members of the Assembly who are connected with such parties to perform their Assembly duties.”
“This motion is necessary to allow the Final Stage of the Licensing Bill to be taken on 15 March, as this is less than the five working days required under Standing Orders between Further Consideration Stage and Final Stage. The alternative to this motion would have been to request that the Business Committee schedule an additional sitting on 16 March. I hope that Members agree that, in the context of this short, focused piece of legislation, the approach that I propose, of suspending the Standing Order, is preferable. I thank the Business Committee for agreeing to the scheduling of the motion and ask Members to support it.”
“I want to be able to provide a family environment at the same time as being able to sell alcohol in a controlled manner at our stadiums. <BR /> <BR />As I said, I thank the Members who have contributed. I am happy to support the amendments.”
“I thank the Members who contributed to the short debate today. The measures that Mr Allister has proposed are quite measured. During Committee Stage, I considered bringing forward a similar amendment. It became quite difficult to word it if I was going to specifically put something in it. The way in which he has approached it does not actually place a condition immediately on the Bill. Therefore, if there were a GAA event and there were a junior match before the senior match, there would be flexibility operationally as to how that condition might be placed. I think it is appropriate. I said at the outset that it is within my policy intent. I made it very clear in my explanatory memorandum that those are my views. I am a mother; I want to protect children.”
“Perhaps Mr Allister does not have as much confidence in his colleagues in the legal profession as I do, but I think it is made quite clear in the explanatory memorandum. That said, I do not think the amendment would make the legislation any better, and I would not feel strongly about it being left out either. So I will leave the House to decide the matter. <BR /> <BR />I will bring my comments to a close and ask Members to support amendments Nos 1, 2 and 4 and to do as they feel necessary with amendment No 3.”
“The EFM, in describing clause 4 and the attachment of conditions to licences, also mentions courts having a similar power to that of an indoor stadium or arena, with respect to licences and says:”
“Instead, they limit the use of their licence to their corporate area. I think that that is evidence that our sporting bodies can operate in a responsible manner. <BR /> <BR />The second, and perhaps more important, reason why I do not feel it needs to go in the Bill, relates to the explanatory and financial memorandum (EFM), which already makes very clear the type of conditions that the Bill expects a court to consider. Paragraph 11 of the EFM states:”
“<BR /> <BR />Amendment No 3, which is Mr Allister's amendment, asks the court to consider whether any conditions should be put on a licence for an outdoor stadium when an event geared towards under-18s is being held. I have said, in previous debates and when I was in front of Committee, that I do not think this amendment is necessary, but it does not go against the policy intent of the Bill, so I will leave it to the House to decide whether it needs to be included. <BR /> <BR />The reason why I do not think it is necessary is that, first, if we take the Kingspan Stadium and Ulster Rugby as an example, they do not have a condition put on the occasional licences that they have, yet at events such as the Schools' Cup final, they do not open the main kiosk bars through which schoolchildren might access the stands.”
“I welcome the opportunity to move these amendments and speak on them today at Further Consideration Stage of the Licensing Bill. Three of the amendments have been tabled by me and are technical in nature. Amendment No 1 removes the reference to "the Department" in clause 1 and is consequential to amendment No 4, which removes subsection 2 of clause 8. This subsection is no longer required because of the amendment made at Consideration Stage that put in place a commencement date and therefore no transitional provision is required. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 2 removes the word "other" from the definition of an outdoor stadium and is really a tidying-up amendment, as the word "primarily" already makes it clear that events other than those of a sporting nature may occur in a stadium.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Can I just put on record my thanks to my colleague Trevor Lunn for all the work he has done in his role on the AERC? Does he agree that men have as important a role as women in continuing to drive the changes through so that we see really able women here and playing a really important role in public life?”
“It is important that they are aware of why there is a policy intent still to have some sort of protection and to balance that with the operational requirements. Not putting restrictions in primary legislation does not mean that they should not be taken forward, perhaps, as I say, by conditions. If we follow that approach, there will be bespoke licences created for each stadium on the basis of their mapping. That will allow the good, family-friendly practices to continue but, at the same time, allow that bit of flexibility, should the need arise. <BR /> <BR />To sum up, I thank Members for their contributions and ask them to support the amendments to allow the passage of the Licensing Bill to the next stage.”
“The most appropriate place to put the conditions is on the individual licence. When you come forward, with the plans in front of you, to apply for your licence, you can delineate certain bar areas. If you want to have extra restrictions in place for certain events or whatever, that is the time to do it. I feel very strongly about that. <BR /> <BR />Even recently, I have had further engagement with the PSNI and the licensing people at Belfast City Council, because, when a licence is being applied for, they are the two statutory consultees. I wanted to be able to provide them with some information on some of the discussions that I have had and on some of the possible operational solutions.”
“Sponsors? You are probably referring to the Heineken Cup or the Guinness Pro12. The sponsors of the tournaments, yes, but not Ulster Rugby in general. <BR /> <BR />There is an option to place conditions on the licence. That is set out clearly in clause 4 and should allay any fears. Conditions can be placed on a licence by the court, either at the time of application or at any time during the life of the licence or, indeed, at renewal stage by input from the district commander. I had considered whether there was any way in which I could put those in the Bill while allowing the stadium to operate seamlessly. I had a lot of discussion with the Department about that, but any of the options that I looked at could have had unintended consequences. It really comes down to the fact that our three stadia are not of exactly the same design.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. I did not think that Kingspan made alcohol, but maybe I am wrong.”
“It has a family stand which is alcohol-free, and it only operates certain hospitality areas during, for instance, the Schools' Cup final. There is no law to make Ulster Rugby do that, but yet it still does it. I do not see any reason why it would move away from that responsible approach in the future. However —”
“I have discussed how the current set-up, which actually expects children to be separated from their parents after 9.00 pm if a game is going on later in the evening, is not acceptable. I have had some really good conversations regarding alcohol-free zones and potential licensing restrictions when an event is predominantly geared to under-18s. I know that that was one of Mr Allister's points, but I actually raised it before he did; I brought it forward the very first time I went before the Committee, and I have looked at it in some detail. <BR /> <BR />Currently, Ulster Rugby at the Kingspan Stadium — the one that is finished and already operating — has already put in place really good operational practices.”