Sammy Douglas
East Belfast · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Avoid the appearance of wrongdoing. There is a sense out there that what is happening, over the last number of years, is wrong. The courts are too lenient and even the PPS is too lenient. William Humphrey said earlier that it undermines the criminal justice system. I agree with William.”
“It was claimed by the so-called Real IRA, and, as my colleague mentioned, the accused has broken bail conditions on five occasions. <BR /> <BR />There has been talk in the debate about human rights.”
“I rise as a member of the Justice Committee to speak in the debate, and I thank Douglas Beattie and his colleagues for bringing the motion to the House. I am here to support the motion.”
“Certainly, in the midst of his comments, there is a frustration. That frustration has been there for many years, not just recently. I agree with the Chief Constable.”
“Minister, you alluded to north Belfast. Have you looked at the statements by the Chief Constable, who has questioned the linkages that may be undermining the whole criminal justice system in situations like that? <BR /> <BR />Also, I want to pay tribute to you. I think that you have been a great Minister.”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker. I certainly agree with my colleague about the full rigour of the law. The Assembly should be tough on crime and tough on the reasons behind crime.”
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“Minister, you alluded to north Belfast. Have you looked at the statements by the Chief Constable, who has questioned the linkages that may be undermining the whole criminal justice system in situations like that? <BR /> <BR />Also, I want to pay tribute to you. I think that you have been a great Minister. You have had all this dumped on your young shoulders, and I think that you have done an excellent job. Thank you very much.”
“Does the Member agree with me that the issues debated today and yesterday are major issues that are going to be left to the side? There is an onus on all the MLAs who will be coming back here to sit down, crack a few heads and get this resolved. We are going into a black hole and I doubt whether we will ever come back again to the Assembly.”
“Avoid the appearance of wrongdoing. There is a sense out there that what is happening, over the last number of years, is wrong. The courts are too lenient and even the PPS is too lenient. William Humphrey said earlier that it undermines the criminal justice system. I agree with William. <BR /> <BR />In closing, I want to say that I have been here for five and a bit years and this is my last debate; I am stepping down from the Assembly. I want to thank the Justice Minister for being here. I want to thank you, Mr Speaker, and your officials. I also want to thank the cleaners, the Committee staff, the people in the canteen and the security men. I would like to see, in the future, a debate on how good the staff across the Assembly are. They do not get the recognition that they deserve.”
“Certainly, in the midst of his comments, there is a frustration. That frustration has been there for many years, not just recently. I agree with the Chief Constable. My experience, during my time as an MLA, is that often the courts will go ahead and grant bail to people who have ended up in court on serious charges despite police objections. That happens even in my area of east Belfast. <BR /> <BR />Someone quoted Gandhi the other day — I think that it was Mike Nesbitt or somebody. I want to quote the Apostle Paul, who said:”
“He raised the whole issue of bail policy and concerns; this is the Chief Constable, as well as us today. He went on to say:”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker. I certainly agree with my colleague about the full rigour of the law. The Assembly should be tough on crime and tough on the reasons behind crime. <BR /> <BR />After the cowardly gun attack in north Belfast last weekend in which a community officer suffered gunshot wounds to his arm, the Chief Constable, George Hamilton, said:”
“It was claimed by the so-called Real IRA, and, as my colleague mentioned, the accused has broken bail conditions on five occasions. <BR /> <BR />There has been talk in the debate about human rights. I support human rights, but what about the human rights of the families who hear that someone who has been accused across the board in a number of incidents of murder or attempted murder has been dealt with leniently by the court in setting their bail conditions. There have been serious incidents linked mainly to dissident republicans during my time as a Member of the Assembly. Concerns have been raised across the community that bail is often granted despite police objections. The police have objected on a number of occasions.”
“I rise as a member of the Justice Committee to speak in the debate, and I thank Douglas Beattie and his colleagues for bringing the motion to the House. I am here to support the motion. <BR /> <BR />I was first elected to the Assembly in 2011, and, during this time, it has been a roller-coaster experience for me with the good, the bad and the ugly. Unfortunately, there have been too many times when it was been the bad and, at other times, the ugly. One of the most traumatic and saddest experiences that I experienced was visiting the home of Adrian Ismay, the prison officer who died after a cowardly booby-trap bomb attack last March — I think that it was 4 March. He died later of his injuries — I think it was on 15 March.”
“I thank the Minister for his answer thus far. I would certainly concur that he has been very helpful with the various partnerships. I declare an interest as a member of the EastSide Partnership in east Belfast. The Minister is certainly aware of the issues surrounding underachievement, particularly for young Protestant boys. Will he outline what his Department is doing at the moment and maybe plans to do in the future?”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. I am sure that she is aware of the high percentage of prisoners — I think it is something like 75% — who have mental health problems and the stress on prison officers. What is the Department of Health doing to review mental health in Maghaberry prison?”
“Will the Minister join me in welcoming the appointment of Cheryl Lamont as chief executive of the Probation Board for Northern Ireland, which is the type of organisation that we need to continue to support to prevent reoffending?”
“I thank the First Minister for her answers thus far. Last Sunday, a few days after the opening, there were six C S Lewis tours with 30 people on each one — they were bunged out. Does she believe that tourism is a big driver for those types of initiatives? I also want to thank the Northern Ireland Tourist Board — Tourism Northern Ireland.”
“I thank the Minister for his answer thus far. I declare an interest as a trustee of the Connswater Community Greenway. I know that we invited the Minister out there recently. I congratulate him for having the vision for a greenway strategy for a number of years. To make short-term gains, will he look at the potential of supporting initiatives such as lighting for the Comber greenway or linking up the Comber greenway and the Connswater Community Greenway?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer thus far. I want to thank him as well for attending the Helping Hands autism resource centre in Ballybeen. Maybe the Minister could look at what help or support could be provided to that organisation, which is a group of families and volunteers.”
“I thank the Minister for her statement. Earlier, my colleague mentioned the psychologist's report either being ignored or, at best, not being committed to. Will the Minister give the House an assurance that during the review, which I welcome, she will look at this particularly difficult area?”
“Does the Member agree that the Giro d'Italia coming here in 2014 not only brought tourists but encouraged families and communities to get involved in cycling, which brings great health benefits?”
“The question is this: what are we doing to encourage those people to turn away from criminality? What are we doing to encourage them to get involved in the Fresh Start Agreement? Finally, what are we doing to offer solutions to the Justice Committee and the Justice Minister?”
“<BR /> <BR />The majority of politicians, whether those at Westminster who belong to Northern Ireland, councillors or MLAs, know the paramilitary leaders in our constituencies.”
“Yesterday, we had a debate about victims and survivors, and we need to keep them at the forefront of any debate because the last thing that we want to do is to be insensitive to the people who have suffered the most by bringing them back to the past as a result of the things that we say in the Chamber or because of our actions. What can we do to support communities and efforts to bring paramilitary activity and criminality to an end? There are a number of good examples in east Belfast. You will be aware of a whole range of initiatives by the Inner East Forum, community activists, churches, the PSNI and others to deal with the difficulties at interfaces and with flags and emblems, bonfires and other issues. Those are the sorts of organisations that we need to fund so that the money does not go directly to paramilitaries.”
“I agree with Doug Beattie that we need to make sure that we get the right investment into the criminal justice agencies that need help and support to get rid of this major situation.”
“Any funds used in the process need to be carefully considered. Money has already begun to be spent on dealing with the issue both from the perspective of encouraging those involved to move away from such activity and in additional and specific funding to assist the criminal justice agencies.”
“As my colleague Pamela Cameron said, if the solution to the issue was so simple, it would have happened years ago. <BR /> <BR />I go back to the notion of transition. At a recent Justice Committee meeting, officials were very helpful, and we went through a range of issues on the transition of paramilitary groups and the amount of money that was available and the amount of money that we had not applied for. At that meeting, we agreed that the officials would report back to us regularly. We want to get the process under way as quickly as possible, but it will not happen overnight. As many people have said, it is a complex issue, and, as we all know, there are paramilitary groups within paramilitary groups. The plan needs to be carefully thought through, with actions and outcomes clearly mapped. It will not go away by throwing money at it.”
“<BR /> <BR />I agree with Doug Beattie when he talks about the notion of transition and helping those who want to go away and get off the stage. I say today very clearly that some of the people I know in East Belfast are on the right road and want to get rid of paramilitary activity in their communities. However, the simplistic notions that government strategies alone will solve the issue or that £5 million is spent in this financial year or the next are clearly fanciful. Huge amounts of European Peace moneys were invested in peace building for prisoners and their families and for groups that said in those days that they wanted to go away. Twenty-two years on from the ceasefires, however, we still have paramilitaries on our streets.”
“I rise not only as a member of the Justice Committee but as a representative for East Belfast, where we have had difficulties for many years since the ceasefires 22 years ago. There is no doubt —this is coming through clearly — that the vast majority of our society wants rid of the scourge of paramilitary groups of whatever persuasion. Communities want them to go away, the police want them to go away, and the Assembly wants them to go away. Many paramilitary members who have done their time in jail also want them to go away; they want to live in a normal society. I am not talking about every person who has been involved in paramilitary activity or every person who is a member of a paramilitary organisation.”
“He talked about our needing to move Northern Ireland forward. The British and Irish Governments have a very difficult task, but we need to get that agreement.”
“He talked about the British Government and said that there is no way that the British Government will come up with the truth. My colleague Paul Frew made reference to the truth coming from the Irish Government as well. There are a number of actors in this but, ultimately, it is getting the truth from many of those angles. <BR /> <BR />I thank Paul Frew for proposing our amendment. He agreed with a lot of what Alex Attwood had said and made the point that we all know victims and we all know survivors. Just to look at the pain in their eyes, we do not understand how many of those people have suffered and continue to suffer.”
“We want to listen, as Mr Allister said — not just to listen, but to make progress to ensure that we are making the decisions about taking this forward. <BR /> <BR />Pam Cameron mentioned that we need to make significant progress, as outlined in the Stormont House Agreement. She made a very good point in saying that there is no quick fix. Although it is taking so long, we need to get it done right, but we need to have that sense of urgency as well. The suffering of victims and families cannot be quantified; that was a good point that was made. They should be front and centre of any consultation and implementation. She picked up that there is a desire in the Assembly to deal with the past and move on. <BR /> <BR />Eamonn McCann — he is away as well — talked about truth. He was very cynical that any of the victims will actually get truth.”
“For many victims and survivors, their hopes have been put on hold, put to the side and deferred in many ways. If anything, the debate today must be about how we address this situation. It has been going on for far too long. We understand the complexities and the sensitivities, but we need to move on. Many people have been saying that we are focused on building a better future for Northern Ireland, but that this must include victims and survivors if we are to make any progress. <BR /> <BR />Mr Attwood — I think he has left the Chamber — highlighted the importance of victims and survivors in the design of any proposal. I thought that was a good suggestion because we do not want this to be a top-down approach.”
“This debate today is very much about putting right the wrongs of the past. The thread that has been going through this is that we need to make decisions; we need to get this sorted. <BR /> <BR />Someone from the opposite Benches mentioned that this has been going on for far too long. We have been here so many times before. It reminded me of one of those Proverbs:”
“I thank all Members for their contribution to what has been a relatively constructive debate today. We are debating issues that are often very personal and very sensitive. While doing that, we should be looking to see how we can put victims and survivors at the very top of our agenda or, as my colleague Pam Cameron said, to the front of how we progress and move forward; it is a thread that has been going right through the debate. <BR /> <BR />There is a programme on television called 'Pop Goes Northern Ireland'. It shows all the songs from the 70s and 80s etc, but also gives a flavour of just what Northern Ireland and other parts of the UK were like during the bad old days. If anything, it shows just how much we owe the victims when we see the carnage that was created across our streets in Northern Ireland.”
“I thank the Minister for his answers thus far. The Minister mentioned the clearing up of some rubbish on the Connswater river. Certainly, with regard to the Sam Thompson bridge, some people talked about it as a bridge that goes nowhere, but we have had nearly 500,000 people walking over it. I welcome the work that has been done there. Will the Minister outline to the House what progress has taken place with the flood alleviation scheme?”
“They seem very interesting projects. Will you outline some of the ideas behind that thinking?”
“I, too, welcome the decision by the Minister. It is a very brave decision. As a member of the Justice Committee, I know that the Committee was lobbied by a lot of people, including a lot of families with children. The changes would have had a really negative impact on their lives, with some having to travel for 10 or 20 miles to get justice. <BR /> <BR />Your statement says that you will:”
“I thank the Minister for her answers thus far. Does she agree with me that mental health issues do not just stop when a prisoner gets out of prison? When a prisoner is released, they are transferred into the community and into families. Will the Minister also look at the mental health work that the Probation Board for Northern Ireland is doing with clients?”
“If we do not do it in a disciplined fashion, it will come back to haunt us all.”
“I have spoken to some, and of course they want to see change, but that change has to be done in a managed and professional way, taking in what the Minister has said today.”
“We need to ensure that the security and safety of prison officers is at the heart of the changes that come about. It does not matter when they occur, whether it is in four years, as part of the Fresh Start Agreement, or in Doug Beattie's suggested nine or 10 years. <BR /> <BR />We certainly do not want to exacerbate the situation, but I see it as being similar to the one for peace lines. I live a mile from a peace line, and I would love to see every peace line in Northern Ireland taken down. The reality is that the people who live in those communities, particularly those living behind the peace walls, will not argue for them to come down until they feel safe and that they are not worrying when they go to bed at night about a petrol bomb or a brick coming through their window. The situation with prison officers is similar.”
“However, she went on to say that, if it is not done right — I am paraphrasing her — it will have a serious and disruptive impact on good order, discipline and the security of the prison as a whole.”
“It is interesting that, at this point in time, the Government are investigating specialist units on the mainland. Those are made up of convicted extremists who promote terror and violence and who are to be isolated from the general prison population and placed in new specialist units under plans to be announced by the Government. In one sense, we are not alone, and the British Government have realised they have a major problem with young Muslims being radicalised within prisons. <BR /> <BR />There has to be a recognition that there is a problem. The Minister said, probably just this morning, that integration was generally best. I think that we all agree with that.”
“There are major issues surrounding Maghaberry prison. But let me say that we are not alone. My colleague Alastair Ross, when he was Chairman of our Committee, said at the time that:”
“One of the things I came to realise is that if there is a problem, we should name it. Brendan McGuigan, the chief inspector of the Criminal Justice Inspection Northern Ireland, came to our Committee on a couple of occasions. He said that the separate regime for dissident republicans and loyalists at Maghaberry jail was a disproportionate drain on resources that requires a radical new approach. That is what we are looking for, no matter how long it is going to take us, because:”
“I will speak as a member of the Justice Committee, and I certainly welcome the debate. When I look at the Justice Committee, I realise these issues have been raised a number of times, so I think it is quite timely we have this debate and look at the way forward, and part of that way forward is to have the prison review and to go through that. <BR /> <BR />Doug Beattie paid tribute to the bravery of the prison officers, and I certainly reiterate that in terms of their commitment and dedication. Over the years, many of those people have made the ultimate sacrifice. Just in March this year, Adrian Ismay, one of my neighbours down the road, made the ultimate sacrifice himself. <BR /> <BR />In one sense, we have a problem. I have often been involved in mediation between various groups over the years.”
“I suggest that, during that visit, you go on the wee tram that Reverend Chris organises. It is a fabulous wee tour and takes only five or 10 minutes. I will pay for you if you want to go on it.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. The Member made the point about other areas of Belfast getting support, which I certainly encourage, but does the Member not agree with me that Titanic Quarter is a regional area for a whole range of different projects? An example is the Titanic slipway, where you have had the BBC Proms, Carl Frampton fighting and, this year, the Euro fanzone for both the Republic of Ireland and the Northern Ireland fans. That is regional, in any sense.”
“I am sure the Member will agree that in Cast and Crew you get some of the best porridge in Belfast. On a more serious note — I have seen the Member running up and down Titanic Quarter — do you agree, and hopefully the Minister will pick this up, that one of the weaknesses at the moment is that we have one road in and one road out? We definitely need new infrastructure there if it is going to expand and grow.”
“A lot of people said that it would not work and that, with 50% of its funding from the Executive, it was a threat to taxpayers' money. In the first year alone, there were 807,000 visitors. What a success story. I think that the iconic Titanic building says it all about the area. It has been regenerated and is a place that people want to visit to work and play, but we need to make those connections with inner East Belfast.”
“<BR /> <BR />We could not talk about the Titanic Quarter without highlighting Titanic Belfast, recently named as Europe's leading visitor attraction at the prestigious World Travel Awards held in Sardinia, Italy, in August, during which we welcomed our 3,000,000th visitor and experienced our busiest month since opening. It saw us beat off stiff competition from Buckingham Palace, the Guinness Storehouse in Dublin, the Eiffel Tower in France and the Roman Colosseum in Italy. Is it not tremendous that we were able to beat them off? Titanic Belfast opened in 2012 on the 100th anniversary of the sinking of the Titanic. The business plan projected 425,000 visitors, of whom between 130,000 and 165,000 would come from outside Northern Ireland.”
“Of course, it has been a huge success. One of the things that I and some other MLAs have been trying to do is connect Titanic Quarter with the working-class areas of east Belfast, the areas where the people who worked in the yard worshipped, went to the bookies and had their drinks. My friend and colleague, the Reverend Mervyn Gibson, is minister of Westbourne Presbyterian Church. They have a great plan to transform that church — the shipyard church — which, at one time, had about 1,800 people there on a Sunday. As a church, it was about the shipyard. I know that he has been in touch with my colleague the Finance Minister trying to get a wee bit of help and support.”
“All I can say is that, for visitors who have been coming to Belfast over a number of years, it must be remarkable to see the very positive developments that are taking place there. I am in that area most days, and, as Van Morrison would say, it is my source; it is somewhere I feel at home and at peace. I have fond memories of going down to get my father's wages before he went on the drink. Those are great memories. <BR /> <BR />As the honourable Member said, apart from the hugely successful physical developments, 18,000 people now live in that area and over one million people visit every year. I looked at the Titanic website earlier today. It says:”
“I met him in the early days. In one of my first experiences, I had a good fight with one of his staff, who suggested that we take down the iconic Samson and Goliath cranes, put them somewhere else in Belfast and build apartments. Thankfully, the cranes are now listed, and I am delighted about that. <BR /> <BR />In the early 1990s, I took my father for a drive round Queen's Island. As we looked at the neglect, the decline and the blight, he was in tears, because he had fond memories of working there over the years. He had been a red-leader at the yard in the 1950s and 1960s, and, like me, although I had been down a number of times, he was shocked to see how the area had declined. This morning, my friend and colleague Maurice Kinkead and I cycled round the area, now known as Titanic Quarter.”