Justin McNulty
Newry and Armagh · Social Democratic and Labour Party · Northern Ireland
“I thank the Minister for challenging some of the narratives that are peddled in relation to immigration. <BR /> <BR />Minister, what steps are you taking to support community safety partnerships in addressing misinformation on illegal immigration and to help build confidence in how local criminality is being managed?”
“I thank the Minister for her statement. I welcome the progress that has been outlined today on major waterways projects, including the Ulster canal project.”
“Will you commit to throwing your full support and that of your Department behind that effort by backing the establishment of the task force and by working proactively with local councils and partners, including the Department of the Taoiseach's Shared Island unit, to realise finally the enormous economic, tourism and environmental potenti…”
“I thank the Minister for his statement. We have all seen the deterioration of our high streets and streets in our towns and villages with the shift to online shopping. Vacancy and dilapidation are now sadly the norm. Will the review act as a stimulus for businesses on those streets in our towns and villages?”
“Absolutely. The Minister and the Department can never relinquish the reins of proper scrutiny. <BR /> <BR />The reclassification by ONS will mean that all trust ports can borrow, which will allow them the commercial flexibility to invest more in their infrastructure.”
“<BR /> <BR />The trust port model has stood the test of time and has worked well for the North. We can see the economic and social benefits in the local communities around the ports. In 2025, the DFI completed a review of the trust ports in the North to explore how the Department's policy on trust ports could be updated.”
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“I do not care to comment. <BR /> <BR />We must be clear: the focus for such health and social workers should be the child whom they are supporting, not integrated education. We should remember that such services may be dealing with matters of life and death. Resources in the vital area of child protection are already spread too thinly. We must not seek to bring other priorities to bear. I believe that many supporters of integrated schools will wholeheartedly agree with what I am saying and will understand what I am alluding to. That could most certainly be considered an unintended adverse consequence. Our proposed amendment to clause 11 has the intention of removing such unintended consequences by focusing on the core group that the guidance will be relevant to. It is that simple.”
“casts a very wide net. The question has to be asked: how onerous a duty have we imposed? Furthermore, is this necessary or helpful in every instance? For example, as written, clause 11 would include sending guidance to health and social workers who are engaged with some of the most vulnerable children and young people in our education system. We must be clear: the focus for such health and social workers should be the child whom they are supporting, not integrated education.”
“As a general direction of travel, this clause is most reasonable. Indeed, it is important that the Department issue guidance. Here is our challenge with it: to whom should the guidance be issued? Stating:”
“Amendment No 59 from the Chair of the Education Committee is helpful. It brings the guidance under the scrutiny of the Assembly, so we support it. Amendment No 60 is from Daniel McCrossan. <BR /> <BR />Clause 11 states:”
“The best legal understanding on the use of delegated powers by any Department is that they should be sought only when their use can be clearly anticipated and defined, and that broad or vague powers are inappropriate. If we have proper regard for integrated education, we will want to legislate clearly to help this good cause by avoiding judicial challenges where possible. <BR /> <BR />We support amendment No 56, which brings greater clarity. <BR /> <BR />Jim Allister, in giving notice of his intention to oppose clause 10, seeks to remove it altogether. We are against that. It is, we feel, too severe a measure. <BR /> <BR />I move to clause 11. We support amendment No 57, just correcting a typing error. We have no problem with amendment No 58, which is dealt with by a previous amendment.”
“<BR /> <BR />I come to our final proposed amendment to clause 10, and we see much good intention in the direction of travel in this clause. Therefore, it is with a somewhat heavy heart that we once again query not the motivation or desire behind the provision but the vehicle chosen to take us to the destination. Perhaps, if the sponsor were to describe in more detail what she hopes to achieve and how that would be achieved, we could have those reservations put to rest. As it stands, however, we query whether this provision, too, has the potential to be cross-cutting in nature and therefore fall under the remit of the Executive. Further, to execute this provision via the vehicle of secondary legislation brings the potential for judicial challenge much closer.”
“<BR /> <BR />We query whether this provision, too, has the potential to be cross-cutting in nature and therefore fall under the remit of the Executive. Further, to execute this provision via the vehicle of secondary legislation brings the potential for judicial challenge much closer. The best legal understanding of the use of delegated powers by any Department is that they should be sought only when their use can be clearly anticipated and defined, and that broad or vague powers are inappropriate. If we have proper regard for integrated education, we will want to legislate clearly to help this good cause by avoiding judicial challenges where possible. <BR /> <BR />We are happy to bring amendment No 55 to clause 10 to Further Consideration Stage. It is an appropriate amendment.”
“If we have proper regard for integrated education, we will want to legislate clearly to help that good cause by avoiding judicial challenges where possible. I have said all that before. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 54 relates to clause 10. Again, we agreed with the Bill sponsor that we would take that amendment to Further Consideration Stage as a probing amendment. Our reservations about it fall on the vagueness of the term "other stakeholders". That term is perhaps capable of embracing an even more nebulous group than any term that has been spoken about so far. How can it be defined? Furthermore, by engaging in that exercise, is there an issue of creating an unlevel playing field? What other sector has that provision? Again, we must be fair to everyone and move together in the spirit of equality, cooperation and partnership.”
“We are all here to make good law; that is why the debate is so important and why all contributions should be made in the proper spirit. We have seen that to date, and it is very positive. <BR /> <BR />I have lost my place, so forgive me if I repeat myself. We query whether the provision has the potential to be cross-cutting in nature and whether it could, therefore, fall under the remit of the Executive. Also, executing the provision via the vehicle of secondary legislation brings much closer the potential for judicial challenge. The best legal understanding around the use of delegated powers by any Department is that delegated powers should be sought only when their use can be clearly anticipated and defined and that broad or vague powers are inappropriate.”
“Furthermore, by engaging in that exercise, is there an issue of creating an unlevel playing field? What other sector has that provision? Again, we must be fair to everyone and move together in the spirit of equality, cooperation and partnership.”
“The best legal understanding around the use of delegated powers by any Department is that delegated powers should be sought only when their use can be clearly anticipated and defined and that broad or vague powers are inappropriate. If we have proper regard for integrated education, we will want to legislate clearly to help that good cause by avoiding judicial challenges where possible. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 54 relates to clause 10. Again, we will bring that one to Further Consideration Stage as a probing amendment. Our reservations about clause 10(2)(l) fall on the vagueness of the term "other stakeholders". That term is perhaps capable of embracing an even more nebulous group than any term that has been spoken about so far. How can it be defined?”
“I thank the Member for his comments. The SDLP has always been about partnership and working together. We are merely interested in providing the best legislation to move forward on integrated education and to create a level playing field. Again, our probing around the issue is designed to ensure that we end up with a provision that is manageable and that embraces everyone in the spirit of fairness and partnership, as that is how community cohesion is built. <BR /> <BR />We query whether the provision has the potential to be cross-cutting in nature and whether it could, therefore, fall under the remit of the Executive. Also, executing the provision via the vehicle of secondary legislation brings much closer the potential for judicial challenge.”
“in that context? Is the area to be covered vast? Is it another area that, in the spirit of creating a level playing field, opens up the potential for the opposite? Once again, we say that we are probing the issue to ensure that we end up with a provision that is manageable and embraces everyone in a spirit of fairness and partnership.”
“<BR /> <BR />We have again agreed with the Bill's sponsor to bring amendment No 53 to clause 10 to Further Consideration Stage as a probing amendment. Once again, the same problem arises with the provision. The wording in question is "persons using integrated education services". In practical terms and with the best will in the world towards supporting integrated education, which the SDLP, of course, does and always has done, how can we expect the Department to regulate to:”
“<BR /> <BR />We have one other reservation with how the provision is being brought forward. There is a definite cross-cutting nature in involving public bodies. Does that matter not rightfully belong in the Executive? Further, to execute that provision via the vehicle of secondary legislation brings the potential for judicial challenge much closer. The best legal understanding of the use of delegated powers by any Department in any Act is that delegated powers should be sought only when their use can be clearly anticipated and defined and that broad or vague powers are inappropriate. If we have proper regard for integrated education, we will want to legislate clearly to help that good cause by avoiding judicial challenges where possible.”
“between all those diverse groups in providing services related to integrated education? Has that measure the potential to put a massive strain on departmental and educational resources or the resources of other public bodies? Regulations will have to be implemented and will require resources at some point. In the interests of having a level playing field, does the Department do that for anybody else? I want to see integrated schools being treated absolutely fairly, of course. However, we must be realistic about what that means for others. We want to be fair to everyone, and I believe that that is the spirit in the integrated sector also. My probing of that issue is designed to ensure that we end up with a provision that is manageable and that embraces everyone in a spirit of fairness and partnership.”
“Does it include all councils, Translink, the Equality Commission etc? Where does the list end? Does the sponsor really expect the Department to:”
“Thank you. I will put more emphasis on the point. Does the sponsor intend to standardise diversity, or is it a case of needing to look at the intent and wording of the clause more carefully? I remind the House that true education enables children and young people to explore ideas and to arrive at their own conclusions. Education is designed to open minds, not close them. Diversity is an area of exploration, not standardisation. The substance of our concerns lies, once more, with the notion of potential unintended consequences. <BR /> <BR />We have also agreed to bring amendment No 52 to Further Consideration Stage as a probing amendment. It and, indeed, the next three amendments all centre on the same concern. In that amendment, we draw attention to the term "public bodies". What exactly does that refer to?”
“It also involves initial and continuing professional development. Does the sponsor intend that that will extend to all staff and governors in every school in the land, not just the integrated ones? <BR /> <BR />We query the wisdom of trying to standardise diversity. You cannot standardise diversity. How will we ever reach a consensus? Considering the nature of diversity, is that even desirable? Remember, we will enshrine that process in statute and make it mandatory.”
“However, we want to know more about the substance of the "other steps taken". Once again, the House must be careful about the possibility of unintended consequences. Our amendment is put forward in that spirit. <BR /> <BR />We have also agreed to bring amendment No 51 to the Further Consideration Stage. It is a probing amendment that is trying to tease out why the words "mandatory" and "standard" are included in the text, which is wide-reaching and includes:”
“Thank you. That is certainly something that needed to be clarified. <BR /> <BR />In terms of creating a level playing field for all sectors, we are not aware of any sector having the same provision. Perhaps we can have an explanation of what is described here and how it creates a level playing field and clarification of that. <BR /> <BR />We agreed with Ms Armstrong to take amendment No 50 to Further Consideration Stage. It is a probing amendment that is simply around the words "other steps taken". It seems a rather vague expression, and we are not sure where it will lead. Considering that we are framing legislation, we want to explore what the sponsor means. From the sentence it is found in, we clearly see that it is a matter that focuses only on the integrated education system.”
“There will be no opposition to that taking place.”
“In terms of creating a level playing field for all sectors, we are aware —.”
“Our interventions here are an attempt to ensure that the regulations that stem from the Bill are proportionate and proper. The House must do all that it can to avoid unforeseen consequences when passing legislation, and it is in that spirit that we approach the next seven amendments. <BR /> <BR />Our amendments to clause 10 are amendment Nos 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54 and 55. We have agreed with Ms Armstrong that we will not take amendment No 49 to a vote. The amendment relates to clause 10(2)(f). We have no issue with the general nature of the provision that we see laid out there, but we would like to probe the need for the specific references set out inside the brackets on the deployment of resources dedicated to integrated schools, up to the point of the information to parents advocating integrated education.”
“<BR /> <BR />In amendment No 49 we say that clause 10 requires the Department to make regulations supplementing the provisions of the Bill. It is sensible that regulations issue from the Bill, and the SDLP welcomes that direction of travel. It is important that the provisions of the Bill are taken forward in a structured manner, and the Department of Education should facilitate that. However, we have concerns about that. There are aspects of the provisions alluded to in the details of clause 10 that we have some difficulty with, and that forms the substance of the next seven proposed amendments. Before I go into any further detail on that, it is important to emphasise again our contentment with the general direction of regulations to support the Bill and advance the cause of integrated education.”
“I am not sure that this helter-skelter way of doing things is the correct way to work through legislation, but that is the nature of the beast. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this important debate and speak on amendment Nos 46 to 71, and I do so on behalf of the SDLP. My colleague, Daniel McCrossan, is en route, and he is trying to get here as fast as he can, as he is the SDLP's education spokesperson. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 46 is the amendment where Ms Armstrong and the Minister are negotiating over the words "must" and "may". It will go to Further Consideration Stage. Amendment No 47 has been tabled by the Chair of the Education Committee. It is better drafting. We support amendment No 48, as it addresses the concerns of the Committee.”
“Forgive me, a LeasCheann Comhairle. There are great controlled, maintained and Irish-medium schools at present. It is not a question of black-marking all in the current education system.”
“Does the Member agree that the SDLP has always been at the forefront of creating a more integrated society? When it comes to a school that intentionally promotes, protects and improves on an ethos of respect and understanding between those of different cultures, different religious beliefs and none, different socio-economic backgrounds and different abilities, that is my old school, the Abbey Christian Brothers’ Grammar School. That is Sacred Heart Grammar School and Our Lady's Grammar School in Newry, as well as Newry High School. Schools in the controlled and maintained sectors provide that level of integration now —”
“Will the Minister confirm whether the potential deficit in jury numbers due to the omicron variant has the potential to further delay cases?”
“Women should not have to fish their keys out of their bag 50 metres from their front door or their car, but they do. Women should not have to guard themselves constantly against the aggressions of men. Men should challenge each other when they see or hear any form of aggression towards women. Men do not realise what a privilege it is not to have to do the things that women must do every day, such as be vigilant constantly and make decisions in order to feel safe. No more.”
“They should not have to worry about the chance of being attacked by a man, but they do. Women should not have to make fake phone calls or cross to the other side of the street while walking home, but they do. Women should not have to share live locations, but they do.”
“A key part of that involves a willingness on the part of men to take responsibility for the role that everyday misogyny and sexism play in keeping this destructive and dangerous culture alive. It requires effort from men in all strands and sectors of life: in professional, personal, sporting and social settings and in boardrooms and on building sites. It will involve having uncomfortable conversations with friends and peers, but, by speaking up against and challenging any marginalisation, denigration and objectification of women when we hear or see it, we will help to break the culture that creates an environment that allows violence against women. <BR /> <BR />I am so worried about the impact of the murder on women and girls who enjoy exercising in public. Women should not have to forward plan a journey or exercise.”
“<BR /> <BR />This is a watershed moment in the consciousness of our island: that a brilliant young woman who was a teacher of children, a talented musician, a former camogie player, a role model in her community and a pillar of her family was murdered in the most brutal fashion in broad daylight while out for a run in a public place strikes at the very centre of our equilibrium and fills us all with profound despair. Ashling's beautiful soul and her joy, zest for life and wonderful potential are gone. The shocking pain of that senseless bereavement will hit the extended Murphy and Leonard families so hard. I cannot begin to truly empathise with what they are feeling. <BR /> <BR />Violence against women is far too common in our society. We must dismantle the culture that permits violent crimes against women to take place.”
“I offer my heartfelt sympathies and support to Ashling Murphy's family — her parents, Ray and Kathleen; her brother, Cathal; and her sister, Amy — her boyfriend, Ryan; her national school class and colleagues; her Ballyboy Comhaltas friends; and her former camogie teammates and mentors and friends from Kilcormac Killoughey GAA club. The outpouring of grief across Ireland since Ashling Murphy's murder has united people everywhere in a sense of shock, sadness and defiant anger. It brings back terrible pain to all the families who have lost loved ones as a consequence of violence by men. My thoughts are with those families.”
“Will the Member join me in saying to all our children and young people who have faced terrible hardship throughout the pandemic, "You are our future. You are strong. You have enormous wells of resilience. If you are struggling, reach out and ask for help. It is OK not to be OK. You can overcome all obstacles. Stay strong"?”
“— emotional health and our spiritual health. Minister, what are your plans for PE and physical activity for children in our schools?”
“Do they help and support children who are from socially deprived backgrounds? Will the exam processes be fair? There is no algorithm for the fairness that we need, Minister. <BR /> <BR />Minister, what are your plans for sport and physical education? The whole system is connected. Our physical health is connected to our mental health, our —”
“What is the downstream cost to our health service in terms of the waiting lists, our GP services and the pressures on our emergency departments? What is the downstream impact of not putting filtration systems into classrooms? <BR /> <BR />I pay enormous tribute to our special teachers in special schools, especially given the heightened risks that are involved there, because there is contact, and close contact cannot be avoided in many of those environments. It has been incredible that those teachers and staff have kept those schools open for the parents and the children: keep going. <BR /> <BR />Where are we on exams? Are the mitigations that are being put in place fair for every child? Are the mitigations fair for children with special needs, those who are statemented or those who have any sort of learning difficulty?”
“Bliain úr faoi mhaise duit. Happy new year to everyone here and everyone out there. I thank teachers, school staff, principals and all support staff for their enormous efforts and for continuing to keep going, despite the pressure and duress they have been under and the significant risk to their health and that of their families. <BR /> <BR />Minister, 35,000 people have signed our petition, which raises concern about the safety of schools in relation to contact tracing. The bringer of that petition, Suzanne Kelly, deserves a response out of simple courtesy. I have questions. How many schools have received air filtration systems, and are those systems impacting on the transmissibility of the virus? What are the costs of implementing those filtration systems and of not implementing them?”
“Thank you, Minister, for your answers thus far. In keeping with the green agenda and the climate crisis on which we all know that we need to take radical action to address, will your officials commit to working with officials in the Shared Island unit to see what options there are for Armagh City, Banbridge and Craigavon Borough Council and Newry, Mourne and Down District Council to transform the Newry canal and create a new blue-green artery through the wonderful and beautiful countryside of Armagh? That could transform lives for generations to come.”
“I am getting there. What measures are likely to be included in any determination?”
“I know how that feels, having had a child just seven months ago. We should all give more thanks and create more joy in this place, and we should recognise the important role that we all play and how lucky we are to represent our constituents. Be thankful for that, because so many people out there are struggling and do not have the —.”
“I thank the Member for his answer. There is not enough joy in this place. This is the season to be joyful and thankful, so it is important that I pass on my congratulations — massive comhghairdeas — to my Assembly colleague Gerry Carroll on the arrival of his son — his first child — two weeks ago.”
“I thank the Minister and his Newry and Armagh colleague, Ms Kimmins, for joining me in welcoming my guest, John Dalzell, to the Great Hall today to launch his thirtieth annual Christmas sit out. It was a wonderful launch, and let us be very generous in our support for him. <BR /> <BR />Minister, can you confirm how many people in the North are still living in homes that have unsafe aluminium composite material cladding? Why, four years after the Grenfell fire, has more progress not been made on the removal of that material?”
“— which has done so much good for this country. The Member keeps attacking the organisation, and that should not be accepted.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I take major umbrage with Members of the House trying to associate the GAA with the institutional racism in English cricket. I take major umbrage with Members of the House trying to portray the GAA as a sectarian organisation. The GAA is a wonderful community-based organisation —”
“Minister, there was an unedifying stand-off over this important issue, which resulted in a delay. What exactly caused that delay? How much did it cost the people and families who most need the help and support?”
“People are trapped in a cycle of homelessness while homes lie empty. It is not good enough. What specific actions does the Minister intend to take to tackle that crucial issue?”
“— are empty. That is the worst number in the North. People are trapped in a cycle of homelessness. Bear with me for one second, Mr Speaker.”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. Some 1,520 homes are lying empty across Newry and Armagh while 1,676 social housing applicants are in dire need of a roof over their head. Bringing those empty homes back into use would nearly eradicate housing stress in my constituency. I also highlight housing issues in my neighbouring constituency of Fermanagh and South Tyrone, the place where the great housing champion Austin Currie grew up and that he represented, where 2,084 homes —”