Linda Dillon
Mid Ulster · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“It is important to have that acknowledgement for the sake of history — so that the generations who come after us will understand what happened to you and what you went through. It is also important for our present and future: we must make sure that what happened to those women, girls and children never happens again.”
“I begin by offering the apologies of my colleague Carál Ní Chuilín, who cannot be here today owing to ill health. Carál has been very much invested in the work on the legislation. The Bill is very important to her, given the work that she does in the Assembly and the people with whom she has personally worked and engaged over many years.”
“My colleague Áine is the Member who probably comes closest to having a true understanding of what you have had to live with and endure, and continue to live with and endure, because it has affected, and will affect, you all your life, and we know that those effects are transgenerational. I acknowledge that.”
“We can never allow that to happen. <BR /> <BR />You showed bravery by speaking up. You spoke up, yes, so that people would know what had happened to you, but you also spoke up so that it would not happen to others.”
“Some lived to see the beginning of the campaign but not the Bill getting to this stage. Many did not even see the beginning of the campaign and did not believe that, in their lifetime — or anyone else's lifetime, for that matter — there would be an acknowledgement of what happened to them.”
“I apologise for not being in the House from the beginning of the statement and thank you for your latitude on that. <BR /> <BR />Thank you, Minister. You have outlined some of the benefits that Waterways Ireland ownership can bring to waterways and local communities.”
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“We can never allow that to happen. <BR /> <BR />You showed bravery by speaking up. You spoke up, yes, so that people would know what had happened to you, but you also spoke up so that it would not happen to others. You did it for other people; you did it for the many people who are watching online, or not watching at all, and are, for whatever reason, not able to acknowledge what happened to them for themselves. You are doing it for them. I thank all of you. As the Chair of the Committee said, the light of truth only comes through if somebody lifts the lid, and you did that, so thank you very much.”
“It is important to have that acknowledgement for the sake of history — so that the generations who come after us will understand what happened to you and what you went through. It is also important for our present and future: we must make sure that what happened to those women, girls and children never happens again. I am really worried about that when I look at what is happening in society today. Women, girls and children continue to suffer and continue be abused. In some cases, women and girls are more vulnerable than they ever were. We need to make sure that the legislation not only acknowledges what happened to you but protects women, girls and children in the future. We need to ensure that what we do makes things better, and that we do not just say, "It happened. We're sorry. Let's forget about it and move on".”
“Some lived to see the beginning of the campaign but not the Bill getting to this stage. Many did not even see the beginning of the campaign and did not believe that, in their lifetime — or anyone else's lifetime, for that matter — there would be an acknowledgement of what happened to them.”
“My colleague Áine is the Member who probably comes closest to having a true understanding of what you have had to live with and endure, and continue to live with and endure, because it has affected, and will affect, you all your life, and we know that those effects are transgenerational. I acknowledge that. There is nothing that we can do through legislation to remove what you have been through. I hope, however, that you know that this is the long-awaited acknowledgement that you deserve. We are genuinely sorry that there are people who never lived to see this day, and it is important to acknowledge those individuals today.”
“I begin by offering the apologies of my colleague Carál Ní Chuilín, who cannot be here today owing to ill health. Carál has been very much invested in the work on the legislation. The Bill is very important to her, given the work that she does in the Assembly and the people with whom she has personally worked and engaged over many years. <BR /> <BR />I am sure that Carál is very sorry not to be here today to meet all of you in the Public Gallery. Like others, I acknowledge your being here today. For me, that is the most important thing. We have said many things in the Chamber — we could talk all day and says lots of things — but none of us can truly understand or reflect what you have been through.”
“I apologise for not being in the House from the beginning of the statement and thank you for your latitude on that. <BR /> <BR />Thank you, Minister. You have outlined some of the benefits that Waterways Ireland ownership can bring to waterways and local communities. Are there any plans to extend the remit of Waterways Ireland to include Lough Neagh? Surely that can only be a positive for the health of the lough, for tourism and for the economic potential of the lough.”
“I concur with all that was said by Sian Mulholland. It is complex and challenging, and social workers are dealing with many more cases than they should. There also cases that are unassigned, however, and there are safeguarding issues there. What reassurance can you give us, Minister, given the issues raised in the House in recent weeks, particularly around Muckamore, that the safeguarding of children and vulnerable adults is not at risk?”
“Thank you for that answer. Has the Commission made any assessment of whether the current facilities deter people with disabilities from attending Parliament Buildings? We have accessible bathrooms, but it would be a struggle for me, as an able-bodied person, to reach the toilet roll dispenser in the disabled bathroom on the third floor, so I do not know how anybody with a disability would. I just think that there are some things that need to be looked at again.”
“I thank the Minister for mentioning the fact that there will be recruitment processes for permanent posts. Minister, you said, in relation to the increases, that DFC has a significant number of agency workers. Have you had conversations with Ministers about setting targets for the recruitment of permanent staff, particularly in areas such as the ones that we have talked about where staff have been employed through an agency for a significant period?”
“I am genuinely afraid that we will end up in a position in which we have to tell all the people whom we have led halfway up the hill, "Turn and go back down".”
“I thank the Member for taking an intervention. On his previous comment about the Member for Lagan Valley being honest when others maybe were not, I would also like to make sure that the record is very clear on this. The tone of the debate has been really good, and I very much acknowledge that your intent in your amendments is honest and for all the right reasons. When I spoke, I was very clear that I want you to understand that my opposition to the amendments is for all the right reasons. I have been engaging with victims and survivors over many years, and I do not want to see anything that delays delivery or potentially causes a failure to deliver for them. That does not mean that I think that it is OK to exclude anybody.”
“I thank the Minister for taking an intervention. I take into account everything that she has outlined and totally understand where she is coming from, but will she agree that just because the state failed to acknowledge those women and their children, just like it failed to look after them, that does not mean that they should not get recognition and acknowledgement because they happen to have passed away? Many of them knew that what was done was wrong. They just had not yet got the state to admit to that.”
“For that reason alone, I will not support Gerry Carroll's amendments, but I thank everybody for their work on the Bill and put on the record that those who carried the pain are the ones who have given the most to the Bill, and we all thank them for that.”
“I understand Gerry's comments that legal challenges can always be brought to legislation, and he is absolutely right about that, but I want to minimise any further delay for those who have campaigned. I met them over 10 years ago, but they have been fighting for much longer than that, and they should not have to wait for one day longer than the first date by which we can make this possible. <BR /> <BR />We need to pass the Bill as quickly as possible and ensure that we deliver for those women. We are talking about the posthumous date, but, if we take much longer with the Bill, we do not know how many more women or adopted children will not survive to see the day that it receives Royal Assent. I do not want to be responsible for that.”
“For that reason, I believe that the posthumous date of 2011 was particularly cruel and inhumane, because those women and their families would be punished and disadvantaged again. They and their adopted children all suffered in the same way, and they deserve the same recognition. It is about recognising the pain and suffering that they went through. <BR /> <BR />I agree with my colleague Áine Murphy about the intent of the amendments tabled by Gerry Carroll. I think that, actually, everyone across the Chamber agrees that those amendments are an attempt to do the right thing. Of that I have no doubt. I hope that Gerry understands that I raise my concerns about those amendments with the same intent, which is to always do the right thing on the Bill. In my mind are the women whom I first met over 10 years ago.”
“<BR /> <BR />I agree with the Member for South Belfast on premature deaths of mothers being a theme. Without a shadow of a doubt, that is directly related in at least some cases to their experience in the institutions and living with the loss of their children. In at least some cases, it may be as a result of how they became pregnant in the first place, because that is a conversation that still has not really been had. There absolutely was abuse, incest and rape. Many of those women were girls. They were children themselves when they went into those institutions, and the question of how they became pregnant was never asked. We have to acknowledge that. <BR /> <BR />There was no support, care or empathy. Their trauma was carried throughout their lives.”
“I thank the Committee and all those who worked with the Committee, particularly the victims and survivors, birth mothers and their adopted children. They have shared a unity of purpose. It goes without saying that we have all been impressed by that unity of purpose. All the victims and survivors who would not have been impacted on by the posthumous date have been united in saying that it must be delivered, because they understand that, no matter when someone died or was in the institutions, that person's pain and suffering was the same as theirs. That is to be commended, and I thank them all for doing that and being so united in their purpose. That unity has ensured that there is unity in the Chamber among all parties. Thank you very much. I wanted to place that on the record.”
“That is a positive thing. As Mr Brett said, it shows that we do not want to send any kind of message to victims and survivors that we do not understand what they have been through or that we do not empathise. We do not want to add to the pain that they have already suffered.”
“I thank everybody who spoke in the debate tonight. I really welcome the fact that Mr Brett has confirmed that there will be no Division. That shows that the empathy and emotion that I talked about is absolutely there. I think that we all feel it. You cannot fail to feel it when you have listened to what affected women and girls and their adopted adult children have been through. <BR /> <BR />First, I will speak to amendment No 11. Like the previous Member who spoke, I was not on the Committee and was not privy to the detailed work that was done there, but we can all agree that amendment No 11 was the important one for everybody involved, specifically the victims and survivors. For that reason, I welcome wholeheartedly the Committee amendment and the fact that the House will not divide on that it tonight.”
“That is exactly what we need to have today and every day that we work on the legislation: empathy, emotion, understanding and care for the women and the adopted children.”
“I thank the Minister for taking an intervention. A Member talked about our having to stick to facts and removing emotion from the debate. I absolutely agree that we need the Bill to be good legislation that will stand up and deliver for people, but we absolutely should not remove emotion from the debate. The lack of empathy, emotion and care for women and their children is exactly what landed us here. If there had been more care, emotion and empathy, those women and their children would not have had to fight for the past however many years. I cannot even say how many years: some people have fought for 10 years; others for 20 or 30 years. They should never have been in that position.”
“I thank the Member for taking an intervention. Does the Member agree, as so many have already said here today, that it is not good enough that we are not only lagging behind here in the North but are, we know, underfunded? If the Minister makes this a priority, we may have an opportunity with the new Prime Minister, who might actually listen. I am not sure. That remains to be seen. However, this is an opportunity for the Minister, as part of the Executive, to go and lobby him on what is a stated priority under NDNA.”
“I thank the Member for taking an intervention. The Member mentioned that some people have spent thousands of pounds on treatment. Will the Member agree that some people simply do not have the money? I was in that position, and I was entitled to one cycle of IVF, and I had my miracle baby. Had I not got pregnant or not carried the pregnancy to term, I would not have had the money to pay for private treatment. I would never have been a mummy.”
“What assurance can you give us that those who see abuse, neglect and harmful practices will be listened to and protected? Do you agree that now is the time for legislation on an individual duty of candour? We need to see that now. People need to face consequences when they do not act.”
“— they did not shout; and they did not support the families.”
“You talked about the many staff members who are overwhelmingly good, yet they did not speak up. The people who were not doing it did not speak up —”
“I use the opportunity to pay tribute to Geraldine O'Hagan, who was one of the staff members to whom the Minister refers in his statement who paid a high price. In June 2024, Geraldine passed away. However, she survived to hear her statement read at the inquiry. At that time, she was under hospice care for stage 4 cancer. She was the epitome of what healthcare should look like. She cared deeply, and, for that, she was gaslighted and disbelieved, and she and her job were threatened. After news of the Muckamore scandal came out, Geraldine continued to support families, trying to help them to get their loved ones into better independent living circumstances. <BR /> <BR />Will you give us assurances, Minister, about staff who do their job and speak up?”
“With your indulgence, a Cheann Comhairle,”
“to be hosted in Belfast. I sincerely hope that we will see members of Coalisland Clonoe Comhaltas represented at the fleadh in Belfast in August. Maith sibh.”
“and in the first Fleadh Cheoil na hEireann”
“who volunteer their time and energy and make sacrifices to teach and to support the talent and the culture. I see the same faces at my local branch every week. They know who they are. I, along with many parents, thank you. Without your volunteering spirit and support for our children, they would not have had the opportunity to play instruments, to sing and to be storytellers. You are the heart of supporting the culture to flourish. As I said, the volunteering spirit is immense and was very much on display over the weekend in Ballygawley. I thank all who put in the effort and worked really hard over the past year to ensure that the event was successful. I thank the volunteers, the community and the businesses of Ballygawley that supported the event. <BR /> <BR />I wish everybody all the very best in Fleadh Uladh”
“. I congratulate all the competitors who took part and offer my best wishes to those who were successful in getting through to compete at the Ulster fleadh in Warrenpoint from 19 July to 26 July. <BR /> <BR />I mention in particular my local branch, Coalisland Clonoe Comhaltas. The talent on display does not happen in a vacuum; it is down to the hard work of many volunteers, and the individuals who put in massive effort. Comhghairdeas agus go raibh míle maith agaibh”
“was hosted by Clogher Valley Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann in Ballygawley. Over a fantastic weekend, we saw a display of musicians, storytellers and singers of all ages compete and enjoy craic agus ceol”
“I thank the Member for taking an intervention. Does the Member agree that that is the very point of the process? Whilst I accept that it is an Executive Bill, the Member has been very clear that she wants to work with the Minister and try to address the issues that have been raised. The very point of bringing legislation to the House is to debate it, look at it, raise issues and fix things that may be wrong with it. No Executive Bill can come to the House and expect to have no scrutiny because it has gone through the Executive. That cannot be allowed to happen. That is what would put the institutions at risk.”
“Minister, will you assure us that that will not happen again and that individual assessments will be done in some areas? The people in my area pose no risk to anybody —”
“— on that day. Older people in that area very much need that service. I assure you that the people of Kildress pose no risk to anybody of any colour; they are good, decent people who are disgusted by the racism of some in this place. I stress "some", because it is certainly not reflective —”
“Minister, I support what you have just said, particularly about the Fire Service. We had the Fire Service in front of the Committee a number of weeks ago, when it outlined the stress and pressure that it is under and the fact that its officers put themselves at risk every time that they are called out. It is important that we put on record our support for the Fire Service in these very difficult times. <BR /> <BR />It is also important that we look at where the risk to health staff was. The Northern Health and Social Care Trust notified home care workers across the Northern Trust area that they should not attend their domiciliary care patients. I am very proud to represent the proud community of Mid Ulster. Health care workers and domiciliary care workers did not go out to the rural area of Kildress —”
“Does the Minister agree that the 'good jobs' Bill would help to protect the retail workers whom he referenced by unionising businesses and ensuring that workers get their rights, regardless of the changes that may happen?”
“A number of other issues would need to be addressed in future legislation, particularly around ill-health retirement, injury on duty and the ability of the Police Ombudsman's office to compel former officers to cooperate with investigations. Those are for another day, however. They are separate issues. I am asking Members to support the amendments that are before us, and that we show a united front in support of officers who are trying to do the right thing every day.”
“If we want to deal with that, we need to support the amendments. Therefore, I appeal to everybody to do that. There are things that will absolutely need to be dealt with in regulations. We will see what comes forward in those regulations and whether they fulfil the expectations of the House. However, it is important that we support the amendments today. I welcome the amendments from the Minister and Nuala McAllister.”
“We should show a united front in supporting the good officers and ensuring that the officers who should not be in the PSNI and should not have power over anybody — those who do not deserve to have power over a butterfly never mind over our entire community — are out of the service and are not able, as Jon said, to take up other positions of power in other services, whether on other parts of this island, across these islands or anywhere for that matter.”
“We need to ensure that PSD has all the tools that it requires to deal with police officers who are subject to serious allegations and have committed serious crimes against others, whether it is people whom they have power over or people in their own homes. Whoever it is, they need to be held accountable. I agree that there are many good officers. Do you know what the good officers want? They want to make sure that the bad officers are gone. They want them out. They do not want them there. <BR /> <BR />On that basis, I appeal to the DUP to support the amendments today. We are not really on different pages. We all have great sympathy for the position that the PSNI is in when trying to deal with some of the serious misconduct. We cannot allow that to go on.”
“However, Katie left a legacy of, hopefully, protecting women and girls in the future and a legacy of ensuring that, when police officers respond to a case, they do not assume that they know what happened and that, when they make a wrong call, they are held accountable for that. That is really important. A number of other reviews have led to really good recommendations, and we need to see all of those implemented. <BR /> <BR />John Beggs KC presented to the Policing Board, and some of the things that he told us were really interesting and have fed into some of the amendments. There is much, much more to be done when it comes to investigations; those carried out by the Police Ombudsman's office and by PSD.”
“We know that there are cases in which officers have been repositioned when an allegation has been made against them and that female officer has had to work with them. They may have been repositioned to another station but, within a couple of months, are back in the station where that female officer works. That is an entirely unacceptable situation for anybody to be put in. It is an issue of public confidence. <BR /> <BR />I do not want to repeat what other Members have said, so I will be more succinct than most. The Katie Simpson case has already been mentioned. That is a well-documented case that led to many recommendations. It was a horrendous thing that happened to Katie and her family, and no words in this place can ever offer enough condolences.”
“The PSNI wants to be able to address disciplinary issues, and we, as an Assembly and a legislature, must support the PSNI to put in place effective disciplinary procedures in order to close the gaps and ensure that we are not allowing officers, some of whom have committed the most egregious crimes, many against women and girls, to benefit. At this point, it is important to note that, when I last asked, I was told that over 90% of the cases in PSD were of a sexual nature or involved domestic abuse. Those are not officers who are being brought in on a Monday morning because a minor incident happened over the weekend. It is really serious abuse, some of which is carried out against their co-workers: other police officers and female police officers.”
“If you are working in a factory and you hit one of your co-workers, you will lose your private pension. If you are dismissed for gross misconduct, you lose your private pension. Why are police officers' pensions protected when the officers have been dismissed for some really serious offences? That should not be the case, but that is a conversation for another day. I agree with Jon that that needs to be addressed at a later point. <BR /> <BR />As I have said, the PSNI and the Police Ombudsman's office have, for quite a significant period, been crying out for changes to legislation to close the gaps. I have raised some of those issues over a number of years at the Policing Board and in the Chamber.”
“I am going to shock the House by agreeing with much of what Jon has said, which is a bit scary. <BR /> <BR />This is really important. I am glad that the amendments have been tabled, because they are important for the PSNI and for us as elected representatives, but, mostly, they are important for the community to have confidence in the PSNI. It is important for us to support the amendments today. They have been asked for; the PSNI and the Police Ombudsman's office have been crying out for changes to the legislation. <BR /> <BR />I want to quickly address one point that Jon made about the accruing of pensions. I agree with him on that. That seems entirely and wholly wrong. It is not dealt with in this legislation, but it needs to be looked at in the future.”
“I appreciate the Member's taking an intervention. The Minister has made it clear that the ombudsman will not take a decision on whether a misconduct hearing will happen: that will still be for the Chief Constable. The ombudsman can certainly make a recommendation, but, as is the case currently, the Chief Constable will decide whether to accept that recommendation and what to do with it. <BR /> <BR />I am not ruling out there being a cut-off date. I do not know what will happen in the regulations, so, on that basis, we will support the amendment. Why, though, would the Member want to stop a misconduct hearing for any officer, given that there are other contested spaces and other issues at play around, in particular, historical child abuse and historical institutional abuse, in which police officers are implicated in a cover-up?”
“Last week, the Policing Board met the public protection branch. It raised some really significant challenges that it faces. We know the attrition rates in some of the cases of violence against women and girls and children. That needs to be seriously addressed. Minister, will you agree to meet some members of the public protection branch? I think that some of the issues that they face in the branch could be addressed through very minor adjustments. Will you engage directly with the people who are working on the ground, rather than their senior officers, to find out what can be done to help them to do their job of protecting women and girls and children?”
“Given what the Justice Minister has just said, does the Member agree that not many officers remain in PSNI who were in the RUC at the time that has been referred to? If there are any, we are talking about a very small number.”