John Blair
South Antrim · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“It supports the Department's role in enforcement by ensuring that animal welfare standards are being upheld. At their core, the regulations are based on prevention, accountability and transparency.”
“I, like others, rise as a member of the AERA Committee in support of the regulations, which seek to make CCTV mandatory in our slaughterhouses. I do not intend to repeat all of the relevant points that have been covered by the Committee Chair and Committee colleagues.”
“<BR /> <BR />I recognise the work of my colleague the Minister of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs, Andrew Muir, who is using the powers within his remit to help mitigate climate change.”
“I rise as chair of the all-party group on climate action to address the extreme heatwave that is forecast to hit mainland UK, including a rare red weather warning, with temperatures forecast to be as high as 40°C. It is yet another reminder that climate change is not a distant future risk that we can brush under the carpet.”
“They place pressure on our health service, disrupt transport and infrastructure, reduce productivity and threaten food production, water supplies and biodiversity. If such events continue to grow in severity and frequency, the cost to our communities, our local economy and our natural environment will only rise.”
“I thank the member of the Commission for that reply. It is good to hear that those reviews take place, of course. However, further to the information that was presented, will there be an ongoing review of the continuous improvement plan, and will that information be available to Members?”
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“Additional issues may well be raised following today's debate, and I will be of any assistance that I can be regarding Members' concerns. <BR /> <BR />I repeat my commitment that the Bill as it stands is as it is intended to be. I have heard the points made previously that it is the thin end of the wedge. I do not think that those points were made with ill intent, but I want to make it clear that I do not wish to add any other form of country sport to the Bill. With that in mind, and given the chance for a change in the interests of animal welfare that will address public concern to be made, I appeal to Members to support the Bill at its Second Stage. That will allow for further scrutiny, including discussion of the concerns that Members have raised.”
“I have waited all day to say that — it feels like all day. They raised the concern that, if the Bill were to pass, dog walkers could be criminalised. That is not the intent. I referred to this earlier, but, given the nature of the issue, I think that it warrants a few additional comments. I have covered the issues around badgers and existing legislation. I have also covered the interpretation of the Bill in further conversations. I am, however, keen to look at it again and to engage with party Members and independent Members. I reached out to all parties before today, and I will do the same after today. I am happy to be approached at any point. More than anything, I want to reassure Members that I am happy for that issue and other issues to undergo further scrutiny at Committee Stage.”
“There would be evidence: there are differences in the scents used in the various types of hunts — drag hunting, clean boot hunting and trail hunting. I go back to a point made earlier: trail hunting was created to overcome the ban on the hunting of wild mammals with dogs in other jurisdictions. We have seen, as demonstrated in recent legal actions and outcomes in the court in Westminster, that it was clearly exploited to overcome illegal hunting and that a loophole had been created. There are differences there. All are practised, and the reason why clean boot hunting and drag hunting are not included is that they have been proven to be less lethal, with many fewer reports and much less coverage of any incidents; therein I draw the distinction. <BR /> <BR />Some Members, during their contributions, may have gone off the scent a bit.”
“I will respond to both interventions, and I thank the Members for them. I am, of course, prepared to listen to the points put forward by Mr Allister, but Mr Stalford made a very valid point. Ultimately, there is a clear difference between those who support the continued practice of hunting with dogs where dogs are used for the kill and those who do not. I am sure that Members have guessed that I am one of those who do not.”
“I cannot be sure of Mr Allister's capacity for compromise and flexibility, but I can assure him of my willingness to seek to do that if it achieves the overall aim, a portion of the aim or most of the aim, which is to serve the interests of animal welfare in this regard.”
“Finally, Claire Sugden spoke in support of the Bill. She referenced some of the complications that she faced during her time as Justice Minister. She also referred to the need to have further conversations. I have not left Mr Allister out and will come to him in a moment. I am happy to give Claire Sugden the assurance that those conversations will take place, as I said, before the Committee, with parties or with individuals. I hope that I can give Mr Allister the assurance that there is no doublespeak or double standard in my position of "hoping" to do that or "pledging" to do that.”
“I can repeat here that I have already undertaken work quite separate from the Bill about how the role of council animal welfare officers interfaces with the PSNI welfare and wildlife section and the DAERA business area of animal welfare, based in Ballykelly. I am trying to get further clarification on how all those groups of people interface, react and provide services across our areas, including council areas, and how we can make that better. Given that Rachel Woods has committed to taking some of those matters forward with the Justice Committee, which I welcome, I should probably clarify that some of the work that I have undertaken may well end up at the AERA Committee.”
“He, too, spoke of the need for further examination of clause 6. In an exchange with Mr Weir during his speech, I gave a commitment to at least have discussions about the inclusion of the word "willing" in terms of participation in or organisation of a hunt, if that clarified matters. That is not a commitment to change it. Those discussions will depend on the willingness of others, given the numbers in the House. <BR /> <BR />Rachel Woods spoke in support of the Bill. She said that she had some concerns about clause 4 and matters of enforcement, which she and I had discussed separately, as she referenced.”
“I can assure him that the Bill's intent is to address the hunting of wild mammals with dogs, where dogs are used to kill. There is no intention to go wider and look at any other aspect of country life or country sport. I am happy to repeat that. If I have to continue to repeat that, I will do so. That does not cause me any problem at all. <BR /> <BR />Dolores Kelly spoke of the SDLP's existing party policy and said that, hopefully, we will be living in a kinder post-COVID era when we look at how we should deal with those issues legislatively. Peter Weir, who also spoke in support of the Bill, talked about the differences across communities and the fact that people were categorised in that regard. There are differences of opinion among rural communities, political parties and lots of other categories of people, which he referenced.”
“I also want to put on record my appreciation to Janice for her work on this issue and a whole raft of animal welfare issues, as well as her work in the interests of animals. <BR /> <BR />Jonathan Buckley commented that he is a member of the APG on country sports. The conclusion was that he is of a different mind than I am on most of the legislation. He said that there may be an attempt to impose moral judgement on minorities. Rachel Woods subsequently stole a line that I might have used in response to that. I am very familiar with that position, and that is not my intention. Jonathan Buckley acknowledged once or twice that he did not think that I had any hidden agenda with the Bill and that I had been fairly upfront and straightforward about my intention.”
“I give a commitment here to discuss issues separately with Rosemary or other colleagues if required. <BR /> <BR />Harry Harvey spoke of the process that the Bill will go through, with further Committee scrutiny. Unfortunately, however, he clarified that he does not support the Bill continuing to that stage. Christopher Stalford, who followed him, spoke in support of the Bill. He made it clear that he was not always of that view, but he gave some specific examples of what had contributed to his change of mind on the issue. <BR /> <BR />My colleague Chris Lyttle spoke in support of the Bill, for which I am grateful. Chris referenced an official from the League Against Cruel Sports — Janice Watt.”
“I give him an assurance at this point that I am happy to have further conversations about that. I will relate later that commitment to having further conversations about any allegation that I am involved in any kind of doublespeak, because I am willing to talk to people, to have further discussions and to participate in the Committee's scrutiny. <BR /> <BR />Rosemary Barton, who spoke as an AERA Committee member and a member of the Ulster Unionist Party, said that she accepted the Bill and supported its moving forward to Committee Stage, for which I am very grateful. Rosemary referred to the fact that she would like further clarification. We met before today's sitting, and we, as AERA Committee colleagues, will have opportunities for discussions in Committee.”
“That is a fair point. I did not say that that was there. I said that the legislation existed. <BR /> <BR />Mr Irwin alleged — I seek to give an assurance; this is not a criticism — that there was a misrepresentation of the rural community. He is not here at the moment, but I think that he would accept my assurance that that was not intended. I represent a rural constituency, as he does. That is not at all the intent of the Bill. In fact, the intent of the Bill is fairly clearly defined in a relatively limited number of clauses. <BR /> <BR />Patsy McGlone, who spoke as an AERA Committee member and an SDLP member, talked of his commitment to animal welfare and his interest in country sports. Patsy made specific reference to his concerns about groups of people hunting. The clause 6 discussion started properly when Patsy spoke.”
“That was to be a recurrent theme throughout the debate, and I hope that I can give Members some reassurance on that. For the present, I will concentrate on some other issues. Mr Irwin referred to existing legislation on badger baiting. Therein lies a comparison: there is existing legislation on badger baiting. Whether or not badgers are nocturnal animals, there is still a scent. I repeat what I said earlier: I know of no circumstance where a dog walker has been criminalised because their dog followed the scent of a badger. <BR /> <BR />I will return later to further examinations and conversations with people in further scrutiny.”
“<BR /> <BR />The debate began with the Chair of the AERA Committee, Declan McAleer, talking about the evidence given to that Committee, the further Committee consideration on matters impacting rural areas and the Committee's process to scrutinise the Bill. He then separately informed us that he would not, as a Sinn Féin member, support that further scrutiny and would, with his colleagues, vote against the Bill. I will make more comments on that later, separate to my reference to the AERA Committee. <BR /> <BR />William Irwin is also a member of the AERA Committee. It felt like a meeting of the AERA Committee during the contributions of the first five or six Members who spoke, perhaps not unusually. William Irwin talked about dog walkers.”
“I thank all Members for their participation in and contributions to the debate. It has been a respectful debate, even in its livelier moments. As I outlined at the start — I want to repeat this; it has been said by others, but we need to re-emphasise it — Northern Ireland is the only part of the United Kingdom without a ban on hunting with dogs. Legislation in other jurisdictions has been in place for two decades or so. There is a chance here and now to do better. Before I conclude on our opportunities to do better, I will take a few moments to reflect on Members' comments. I apologise in advance if I do not get through them all due to time constraints.”
“I can give an assurance that I am happy to work with others on clause 6 and the terminology around willing participation and numbers of dogs. The inclusion of the word "willing" might well make a difference.”
“I thank Mr Weir for giving way. Hopefully, it will shorten my winding-up speech if I address a number of points at one time.”
“I thank the Minister for her answer, particularly the priority given to the reference to the serious issue of violence against women and girls. In the light of that, has the Minister met the Justice Minister, or is there a plan to do so, and, if so, when might it take place?”
“We have to trust the police to make a judgement at the time. Other allegations against someone who holds a firearms certificate might also have implications for them, not just this.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I will make two points, and perhaps he can clarify them. So far, he has clearly outlined that he does not have a major difficulty with some of the elements of the Bill that deal with the most brutal and barbaric of country sports. Can the Member clarify his position on fox hunting, for example? However, to clarify the legislative position on police intervention if such a thing happened, I ask him if that is not exactly what currently happens with the legislation that is designed to protect badgers. If a dog instinctively or innocently follows the scent of a badger, that set of circumstances already exists. As far as I am aware, no one has been prosecuted on that basis. <BR /> <BR />In relation to the police and the legislative situation with badgers, thus far, nothing has happened.”
“I hope that they will give the legislation their backing so that we can finally consign hunting with dogs to history, where it belongs. I urge Members to support the Bill.”
“It is therefore not my intention to go further than the scope of the Bill as outlined in the content and described today to Assembly colleagues. It is my hope that the Bill's clearly defined scope, to which I do not intend to add, is also a good reason why the Bill can easily be considered, consulted on and debated in a timely manner within the time limits of the current mandate. <BR /> <BR />We have a historic opportunity to make a significant difference: a real opportunity for Northern Ireland to not only catch up with the rest of the UK but lead the way in ensuring full, robust protection for animals persecuted for sport and human enjoyment. I look forward to debating the Bill's principles with political colleagues.”
“<BR /> <BR />I am grateful to present on the Hunting of Wild Mammals Bill, for the debate on the matter and for the opportunity for the Bill to progress for further consideration and scrutiny. Members will be aware that I represent a largely rural constituency and that, before I joined the Assembly, I worked closely with the country sports sector for many years and tried to ensure that country sports and other outdoor activities were accessible to the public. The Bill is not intended in any way to restrict traditional country sports such as shooting, using gun dogs or angling. The Bill maintains appropriate balance by exempting hunting from the ban in certain circumstances, including avoiding damage to livestock, crops or property and causing damage to the biological diversity of an area.”
“and that all willing participants or those otherwise involved in the pursuit of a wild mammal will have caused an offence. In defining the offences, I have not included a clause for recklessness. As trail hunting is to be prohibited, there is no need to extend that hunting offence to cover cases where a person who goes drag hunting is reckless and a live hunt ensues. I have made the offences ones of strict liability, which means that prosecution has to prove only the organisation of or participation in the hunting that I have mentioned. "Participation" carries within its natural language a meaning of deliberate engagement or organisation of a hunt that should, in turn, naturally exclude a person's genuinely inadvertent stumbling across a hunt.”
“It is my hope that we can scrutinise the penalties further at Committee Stage, including the potential forfeiture of any dog or hunting article used in the commissioning of the offence or in the possession of the convicted person at the time of their arrest. <BR /> <BR />The interpretation section further defines the remit of the legislation. It states:”
“Both practices are non-lethal forms of hunting, and it is my hope that those involved in fox hunting will adapt and move to those animal welfare-friendly alternatives. It is vital, however, that the two activities are not confused with trail hunting. I emphasise that trail hunting is not drag hunting or clean boot hunting. Trail hunting can, however, be used as cover for illegal hunting, which is why it has been included in the Bill's remit. In fact, the exemptions in general have been written to avoid the potential for loopholes, misinterpretation and uncertainty. <BR /> <BR />In setting the penalties, I followed the highest penalty in section 31 of the Welfare of Animals Act (Northern Ireland) 2011. A person who commits an offence under this Act is liable:”
“One of the most obvious characteristics of hunting with dogs as undertaken by organised hunts is the fact that it is based on a large pack of big dogs moving through the land at high speed, followed by many people who are often on horseback. That is bound to have an impact on the land where that occurs, because, naturally, the hounds will not care about disturbing the natural habitat where they are hunting, and those areas will, perhaps, include ground used by nesting birds that are already protected by law. Those consequences of recreational hunting and biodiversity conservation have been supported by a number of reviews and reports. <BR /> <BR />Members will also note that drag hunting and clean boot hunting have not been included in the Bill's remit.”
“Hunting is exempt from the prohibition in clause 1 if it is confined to hunting rats or mice or if it complies with all the conditions listed in clause 4. Hunting that satisfies the conditions listed in the exemptions will not be deemed to be illegal. The exemptions cover protection of livestock, crops, biodiversity and hunting that puts food on the table, as well as the established and historical practices that are part of country life. <BR /> <BR />The Bill permits the hunting of wild mammals for the protection of biodiversity. However, I have to say at this point that hunting with dogs is more likely to have an adverse impact on wildlife, conservation and the wider environment.”
“That is a simple description for the purpose of my speech, but I assure Members that the footage that I have seen of the activity is harrowing and makes for uncomfortable viewing. A secondary matter with terrier work that I was made aware of during the consultation process is that terriers can often sustain injuries. It can be the case that professional veterinary care is not sought and dogs are treated elsewhere. I have heard reports of dogs having staples in their jaws and superglue in their mouths as intended fixes. Those injuries also suggest that the dogs impacted in such circumstances are used for activities other than simply flushing rabbits and may have been involved in illegal badger baiting, for example, such is the extent of their injuries. <BR /> <BR />The Bill allows for exemptions.”
“The court heard that, at two webinars last August, he had told members of the Hunting Office to use the legal form of trail hunting as a "smokescreen" for the criminal activity. <BR /> <BR />In addition to that, the Bill introduces a ban on terrier work, which is defined as:”
“I am aware of that, and, coincidentally, I will refer to it a line or two later in my speech. <BR /> <BR />Loopholes have been exposed in the legislation in England, Wales and Scotland that have allowed hunting to continue under certain guises, including trail hunting. Such exemptions are widely abused and make potential prosecutions difficult. They cannot be justified. It is imperative that Northern Ireland eliminate the loopholes that were highlighted in a recent court case in GB when the Westminster Magistrates' Court found a leading huntsman guilty and ordered him to pay £3,500 for giving advice on how to carry out hunts illegally. It was described as a landmark case.”
“It should be noted that that activity was non-existent — not even envisaged — when the Hunting Act 2004 was drafted. It is therefore crucial that a hunting with dogs ban in Northern Ireland prevent trail hunting from being used as cover for illegal hunting.”
“The Bill aims to introduce a ban on hunting wild mammals to death with dogs, with a definition broad enough to include deer, foxes, rabbits and mink. <BR /> <BR />The Bill also intends to ban trail hunting, which is defined in the Bill as:”
“<BR /> <BR />I will now outline the clauses of the Bill. In 2000, a UK parliamentary inquiry into hunting with dogs, commonly referred to as the "Burns report", established and concluded that animals suffer incredible physiological and psychological stress when chased by a hunt and that that suffering occurs regardless of whether they are eventually killed. That evidence led to a ban in England and Wales through the Hunting Act 2004. The Protection of Wild Mammals (Scotland) Act 2002 protected certain wild mammals from being hunted with dogs and placed restrictions on the practice of hunting wild mammals with dogs. Northern Ireland remains the only jurisdiction in the United Kingdom without a ban on hunting with dogs. Such hunting includes fox hunting and deer hunting.”
“I also intend the legislation to facilitate prosecutions and subsequent penalties to act as a deterrent to future hunting using dogs to kill wild mammals. I am also conscious of loopholes in the legislation in other jurisdictions, such as the use of trail hunting as cover for proscribed fox hunting. Accordingly, provision to address those has been included in the Bill. The legislation will ensure that Northern Ireland would lead the way with a full and comprehensive ban on hunting with dogs. It will not duplicate the exemptions and loopholes that have allowed animals to continue to be chased and killed in the rest of the UK. There is a historic opportunity to tackle the scourge of hunting with dogs once and for all in Northern Ireland. We need to end this brutally cruel activity that has no place in a modern society.”
“An even greater majority, 79·6%, said that they considered terrier work, which is using dogs to attack to cause a wild mammal to flee its cover, to be unacceptable. <BR /> <BR />Following consultation and deliberation, I considered that primary legislation would be the best mechanism by which to achieve the policy objectives comprehensively and to introduce appropriate penalties for breaches of the proposed law. Therefore, the Bill will make a consequential amendment to the Welfare of Animals (Northern Ireland) Act 2011 to ensure that a coherent statutory framework is in place. <BR /> <BR />The Bill aims to introduce a ban on the hunting of wild mammals to death with dogs, and, without introducing legislation, that practice could not be banned.”
“That has been my personal and political stance for many years. It is also the policy position of my party, the Alliance Party. I firmly believe that animals being ripped to shreds by packs of dogs for human enjoyment cannot be considered a sport and that fox and stag hunting have no place in a civilised society. <BR /> <BR />Between December 2020 and February '21, I conducted an eight-week consultation exercise on my private Member's Bill. There were 18,425 responses to the survey. That is thought to be the largest number of responses to a private Member's Bill in the Assembly, and it shows the strength of feeling on the issue. An overwhelming majority of respondents, 78·16%, agreed with the proposals and said that all hunting, searching, coursing, capturing or killing of wild mammals with dogs should be banned in Northern Ireland.”
“I will proceed by pointing out that Northern Ireland is the only part of the United Kingdom without a ban on hunting with dogs. That is despite widespread public support for a ban, including fox and deer hunting. It is my opinion and that, widely, of the public that hunting with dogs is a cruel and unnecessary sport that causes immeasurable suffering to the hunted animals and the hunting dogs, which can also sustain horrific injuries, especially during what is known as "terrier work". Through my private Member's Bill, I intend to reform the legislation on hunting wild mammals with dogs in Northern Ireland to bring it in line with that in England, Scotland and Wales, where the practice has been illegal for nearly 20 years. <BR /> <BR />A ban on hunting with dogs in Northern Ireland is long overdue.”
“I am pleased that she is now fully recovered, is back in service as part of the policing team and has even featured in an edition of the BBC Northern Ireland 'Crime NI' television programme. <BR /> <BR />I recognise the invaluable work carried out by our brave service animals in Northern Ireland such as Daphne. I am encouraged that the Minister and his officials are progressing the legislation at pace to ensure that there is extra protection for those service animals. I am pleased to have supported the accelerated passage of the Bill and to support it at Second Stage in order to ensure that those who harm service animals are held to account and punished for their crimes accordingly.”
“As I stated, our brave service animals in Northern Ireland carry out invaluable work. That work can often place them in unpredictable and dangerous situations. It is only appropriate that they are adequately protected by law, as they are in neighbouring jurisdictions. <BR /> <BR />Given my roles on the Agriculture Committee and the Northern Ireland Policing Board and as chair of the Assembly all-party group on animal welfare, I recently took an opportunity to visit police dogs in my constituency and talk to their handlers. I am grateful to the Antrim and Newtownabbey policing team for setting that up for me. At that visit to the Steeple Road police site in Antrim, I was troubled to discover that a police dog called Daphne had been injured in civil unrest, apparently over the protocol, earlier this year.”
“Scotland also adopted Finn's law, with the new rules there being part of the Animals and Wildlife (Penalties, Protections and Powers) (Scotland) Act 2020, which passed on 30 November 2020. That means that service animals in Northern Ireland are deprived of the protection that is available to their counterparts in the rest of the UK. <BR /> <BR />I commend the Minister and his officials for progressing the legislation at pace to bring similar protection to service animals in Northern Ireland, and I hope that that can be done during the current mandate. Therefore, I am content with accelerated passage.”
“First of all, we are debating whether to grant accelerated passage to the Animal Welfare (Service Animals) Bill, and, once we have concluded this debate, we will move to the Second Stage. My immediate comments will focus on whether we should grant accelerated passage. <BR /> <BR />The Animal Welfare (Service Animals) Bill, also known as Finn's law, which made it an offence to cause unnecessary suffering to a service animal in England and Wales, was introduced to the House of Commons on 13 June 2018. The Bill received Royal Assent on 8 April 2019, having completed all its parliamentary stages, and the Act came into force in June 2019, during the three-year hiatus of the Northern Ireland Assembly.”
“I thank the Minister for her statement. Our waterways are a valuable and crucial part of our green recovery. However, it could be said that, historically, they have been undervalued, underutilised and very much under-promoted. I know that because I worked in that area before I came to this place. Was there any discussion at the meeting on how the tourism bodies could properly reflect and promote our excellent waterways as part of our tourism product?”
“I thank the Minister for his statement. What preliminary steps were discussed among the respective Governments and Departments of these islands to plan to work together on the delivery of COP26 commitments? Was funding discussed as a vital component of that?”
“I thank the Member for her intervention, and I would certainly support any investment support for public transport, especially in constituencies such as mine, which contribute heavily to commuter traffic into city areas. <BR /> <BR />If we are serious about a green recovery, there is no option: Northern Ireland must contribute to UK and international commitments, move to decarbonise our existing transport networks and make significant infrastructure investment enhancements in relation to active travel, greenways and reducing car use. That is vital to the transition to a clean, sustainable transport system that works for everyone. I thank the Committee for its report, which is a significant step forward in driving that collaborative effort.”
“Significant infrastructure investment is vital for a clean, sustainable transport system that works for everyone.”
“While the current health crisis is unparalleled in the scale of impacts and government responses, examining past crises can be instructive in informing policy to incentivise sustainable behaviours as we go forward. <BR /> <BR />The transition to a carbon-neutral transport system brings new opportunities that are highlighted in the report. Creating a sustainable transport industry filled with well-paid, secure green jobs will simultaneously combat the climate emergency and inequality through investment. That investment will create meaningful modal change, support equal opportunities, reduce social exclusion and break down the socio-economic transport divide. Chronic underinvestment in public transport has created a highly car-dependent society in Northern Ireland.”
“I wish to make some remarks as the Alliance Party's environment spokesperson in addition to the comments made already by my colleague Andrew Muir. <BR /> <BR />The restrictions put in place to limit the spread of COVID-19 have had a widespread impact on people's lives, including changes to their transport behaviours. Global road transport activity was almost 50% below the 2019 average by the end of March 2020, and commercial flight activity almost 75% below that of 2019 by mid-April 2020. Changing patterns of work, shopping and business travel as a result of the pandemic have provided an opportunity and can be a catalyst for a shift towards more sustainable transport behaviours, avoiding a return to pre-crisis behaviours. However, that will require Governments to take decisive actions to limit transport energy use.”
“With the emphasis now on rural investment, will the Minister provide an update on another rural development initiative from his Department, namely the rural tourism collaborative experiences programme?”