Emma Sheerin
Mid Ulster · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“Given what we have seen unfold across the North in recent weeks, it is important that we acknowledge that they are people with particular vulnerabilities who are particularly sensitive and, with that in mind, consider our language.”
“No, I will not give way. You have rambled on for long enough in this place. <BR /> <BR />When it comes to the early clauses of the Bill, I, like others, put on the record our appreciation of the work of Geraldine Hanna and our support for the intent of Part 1 of the Bill, which puts the role that she has been carrying out impeccably thus…”
“I thank the Minister for clarifying that immigration is an excepted matter, which means that it is the responsibility of the British Government and nothing to do with the House.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Members will be aware that the DUP and some of its lackeys in the UUP cynically used petitions of concern, two weeks ago, to block rights for children.”
“I welcome the opportunity to speak at the Second Stage of the Victims and Witnesses of Crime Bill. I am proud to be from a party that consistently supports the best available human rights advice on all matters.”
“For many years, Donaldson used his position of power to abuse and to escape justice. He presented himself as a role model. We now know that that was bogus and that his public persona was a deception.”
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“<BR /> <BR />In short, we support the Bill at Second Stage and look forward to working with other members of the Committee to watch it progress through the House.”
“Given what we have seen unfold across the North in recent weeks, it is important that we acknowledge that they are people with particular vulnerabilities who are particularly sensitive and, with that in mind, consider our language. As a party, we support looking at the EU victims directive, which sets out some qualifications when it comes to the people who would be entitled to that support. <BR /> <BR />Moving on to the specific protections for those who have been the victim of sexual abuse and assault, we can all cast our minds back to the case that led to the Gillen review, when we saw so much victim blaming and rape culture pervading the narrative following that court case because of how the victim was treated.”
“No, I will not give way. You have rambled on for long enough in this place. <BR /> <BR />When it comes to the early clauses of the Bill, I, like others, put on the record our appreciation of the work of Geraldine Hanna and our support for the intent of Part 1 of the Bill, which puts the role that she has been carrying out impeccably thus far onto a statutory footing in supporting victims and witnesses of crime. As others have remarked, what she has been doing is enlightening and provides a real voice for victims here. We all support that. <BR /> <BR />On Part 2, as we move through the clauses, we are in support of victims of hate crime being entitled to and qualified for special measures.”
“I welcome the opportunity to speak at the Second Stage of the Victims and Witnesses of Crime Bill. I am proud to be from a party that consistently supports the best available human rights advice on all matters. I fail to understand why anybody would boast about having a position that is at odds with human rights advice, but that is for the Member to consider in the time ahead. <BR /> <BR />I thank the Minister and all those in the Department for getting the Bill to Second Stage.”
“I thank the Minister for clarifying that immigration is an excepted matter, which means that it is the responsibility of the British Government and nothing to do with the House. The Minister will be aware that, in recent weeks, a DUP Member made claims in the Chamber about ethnicity and crime that have since been confirmed as unsubstantiated by FactCheckNI. Does she agree that it is important that, when Members speak about issues in the Chamber, they use accurate and responsible language and avoid conflating topics or tarring an entire section of the community with one brush?”
“As previously stated, this is all pointless.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Will you confirm whether the Speaker's Office will write to all Members to clarify how Standing Order 60 was interpreted to decide that no Ad Hoc Committee was required for the implementation of this petition of concern?”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Members will be aware that the DUP and some of its lackeys in the UUP cynically used petitions of concern, two weeks ago, to block rights for children. They will also be aware that the Human Rights Commission wrote to us all, independently, last week, to advise that the proposed changes in the amendments would have been in line with human rights advice. Will the Speaker's Office advise on the interpretation of Standing Orders that has not seen the setting up of an Ad Hoc Committee to consider that matter?”
“That decision defies any reasonable or rational explanation.”
“For many years, Donaldson used his position of power to abuse and to escape justice. He presented himself as a role model. We now know that that was bogus and that his public persona was a deception. He deployed his faith not only to cover his horrific behaviour but to promote a false and harmful morality in, as others have said, the most sanctimonious of manners. <BR /> <BR />In the days since the guilty verdict, many in the DUP have admitted that they knew that Donaldson was not what he pretended to be. It is now obvious that many at the most senior levels of the DUP leadership, including former leader Edwin Poots, were aware of the alarmingly inappropriate behaviour by Donaldson, yet they did nothing. Knowing about his deceit and deception, his double life and double standards, the DUP elected him as its leader.”
“I thank my colleague Deirdre Hargey for bringing this matter before the House. It is a matter of huge public interest. Anyone who knows Deirdre knows that she has always been and is still a powerful advocate for the most vulnerable, including all who have been subject to abuse. <BR /> <BR />Last week, the news that Jeffrey Donaldson had been found guilty of the sexual abuse of children, including rape, shocked and horrified us all. The details of his crimes are disgusting and invoke profound sympathy for the brave women who had the tenacity to tell their story in court. None of us can imagine how they feel and what they have gone through, but we send them our sincere support and respect. What has made their ordeal even more disturbing is the level of hypocrisy involved.”
“On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Will you give an assessment on whether it is appropriate for Members to use transphobic language numerous times in the House?”
“That approach ensures that the safety and well-being of prisoners and prison staff remain the primary consideration and the deciding factors in every placement decision. We will vote against the TUV amendment.”
“We have our own equality legislation and, importantly, under the Windsor framework, European law provides the standard that must be maintained, which is a point that the Supreme Court in London did not deal with in its judgement. <BR /> <BR />While the Equality Commission has committed to producing legal guidance for employers and public bodies in the North, the guidance has not yet been produced. The commission should be given the time and space to carry out that work carefully. In that respect, the amendment prejudges that work and is therefore totally inappropriate. <BR /> <BR />We in Sinn Féin support a risk-based approach to prisoner placement, determined on a case-by-case basis through comprehensive individual assessment.”
“The current risk-based approach to prisoner placement on a case-by-case basis, which is centred on specific individual assessments, is designed to do precisely that. Risk assessments should include full, evidence-based consideration of an offender, including pre-sentence reports, offending history and criminal records. Those with a history of violence or sexual abuse should not be placed in women's prisons. <BR /> <BR />The TUV amendment refers to the British Supreme Court judgement that interprets the Equality Act, which does not apply to us in the North of Ireland. Why would we incorporate into our law legislation that has not been debated, agreed or adopted by the Assembly? The judgement does not determine how our legal framework should be interpreted.”
“Like the Member who has just spoken, I and my colleagues in Sinn Féin will vote in favour of amendment No 96, which we believe to be a common-sense amendment to increase safety provisions for prisoners as they return to the outside world, and against amendment No 97, which is a deliberate and politically motivated oversimplification of a complex and sensitive issue. <BR /> <BR />Policy on prisoner management should be guided by evidence, including professional and operational expertise. Unfortunately, some seek to reduce that complex issue to an ill-informed and divisive culture war debate, which distracts from the practical realities of prison management and prisoner safety. Our focus is on how to protect the safety, dignity and welfare of prisoners and prison staff.”
“He used his position to ensure the silence of his victims and attempted to gaslight them upon being confronted. His attitude and his audacity compounded the harm that he inflicted through his actions. No one is above the law, and I hope that all victims watching this unfold will take strength from that. Justice in this case was hard fought for and so deserved. I hope that the survivors receive the support that they should have had all those years ago. <BR /> <BR />To all those who are triggered by this news, we send our solidarity. Please come forward; reach out for help. There are organisations out there, such as Nexus, that do incredible work and are there for you. No one deserves to be abused. It is never your fault.”
“Yesterday, we saw former Member of this House Jeffrey Donaldson found guilty of child sexual abuse charges, including rape. Our thoughts are with his victims, who have suffered more than any of us could ever comprehend. I want to commend them for the strength and dignity that they have shown, both in coming forward to report the abuse in the first instance and over the course of recent weeks during a trial that saw every element of their lives pulled apart and examined. Their resilience throughout that process has been nothing short of admirable, and I hope beyond hope that it gives other survivors the courage to come forward. <BR /> <BR />How someone capable of such depravity could rise through the ranks of political office and retain the trust and confidence of so many for so long is hard to comprehend.”
“I thank the Minister. Again, we are hearing from across the Committee that the need for increased clarity is the barrier to people's supporting the clause. There is lots in what you have said that provides food for thought and something for us to consider, because we feel that ensuring that people have access to legal aid, and that the best in the business are incentivised to remain within that system, is definitely a priority for us.”
“I thank the Member for her intervention. I do not think that there is any disagreement in the Committee on the objective and what you have set out there. I do not think that we have heard disagreement from any Member who has spoken thus far. I take your point that it is not explicitly about accessing the service, accessing justice or accessibility for barristers. However, any improvement to the service inherently improves accessibility. We have heard about issues with the family courts and the fact that people are not aware of the system or do not understand it: anything that you do to broaden or increase that understanding will inevitably lead to greater access, which is what we all want.”
“Obviously, we all want to see a system that everyone can buy into and support and one that works for victims of crime and those who require support in the courts. We have particular concerns about how legal aid is accessible and how, when it comes to barristers who operate in the field of legal aid, it is not accessible for ethnic minorities or those from working-class backgrounds.”
“I want to outline Sinn Féin's position on these amendments. Like the Member who spoke previously, we are in agreement with the Minister on opposing the inclusion of clause 28, but we have similar concerns as my constituency colleague about the proposed new clause 27A. It goes back to a lot of the rationale that has already been presented, such as the lack of an opportunity to scrutinise and the lack of detail on how exactly it would work. <BR /> <BR />A lot of the clarification that the Minister has provided about having a process or a system that is consistent across the board and consistent with how others are paid makes sense. During engagement with the Bar Council, we heard very clearly that it is open to reform and wants to work with the Department and the Minister to reform. We support that.”
“<BR /> <BR />Sinn Féin also supports amendment Nos 94 and 95, which will reform criminal record disclosures to ensure that they are more closely focused on serious and relevant offences. A system that focuses on relevant convictions is integral to protecting children and vulnerable adults. Taken together, the amendments represent a significant step towards having a more effective justice system, and Sinn Féin supports the objectives that have been outlined.”
“<BR /> <BR />Sinn Féin supports amendment No 92, which is a modernising amendment that recognises people should not be burdened for the rest of their lives as a result of past mistakes. The evidence shows us that having support mechanisms such as stable employment, a healthy home life and access to education means that people are less likely to reoffend. People should not have to face obstacles caused by outdated legislation when they try to access such opportunities and rights. We therefore support amendment Nos 92 and 93, which will create a clear pathway for offenders to apply to be recognised as being rehabilitated after it has been accepted that they have made changes in their lives.”
“I will speak on behalf of my party. Sinn Féin will support amendment Nos 92 to 95. They represent important, progressive reforms to our justice system, which we obviously support. We have probably seen far too little of that in recent days. At their heart is the principle that our justice system has to hold people accountable for their actions, but it also has to support effective rehabilitation. The most effective way in which to create safe communities is to reduce reoffending by supporting people to make changes in their lives. When a person has served their sentence and demonstrated that they have changed their behaviours, the law should support them on that journey rather than create unnecessary barriers the increase the risk of further offending.”
“With all due respect, I would love to see the passion that you have put into that argument and the passion that you have all displayed in managing to barter with specific Members of the UUP to drive a petition of concern over the line engaged in early interventions for young people who need support and help, instead of dying in a ditch to make sure that they remain criminalised.”
“That is just for the record. <BR /> <BR />You made a comment about providing us with expertise or advice. We are the outlier. MACR is lower here than in 75% of European states, and the world has not caved in in any of those places. We have advice going back as far as 2011 to increase the age of criminal responsibility, and we have advice from the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child, which, I dare say, is more expert on children's rights than any of us in the Chamber. <BR /> <BR />I go back to the emotive argument that you are presenting about one hypothetical individual case and how you would feel as a parent.”
“I do not appreciate being patronised, I have to say, and that was the second time.”
“You have cynically blocked it, and you have not got the courage of your convictions in your argument. If you did, you would not have engaged the POC.”
“In fairness to the Member, it is not in his nature to talk in extremities, and he has not been doing so, but the argument that he is making is based on extreme cases. We know that law that is made on the basis of extreme cases is not good law. If the law covers only extreme cases but punishes all children, including vulnerable children in the process, it is terrible law. You asked what we would say to parents. We all deal with parents — with constituents — who are in horrible circumstances every day of the week, but we have a raft of evidence that tells us that this proposal would lead to less offending, which means that there would be fewer parents standing in the Ulster Hospital, or wherever else, with injured children. That is the reality. That is what I would say. We stand over the amendment.”
“The alternatives that would have been created, however, had we been able to legislate to raise MACR would have included that education, ultimately leading to fewer victims. I struggle, because, in his introduction, the Member told us that he worked with young people for 20 years. Why, then, go down a punitive route instead of an empathetic one?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. There are a couple of parts to my intervention. First, the Commissioner Designate for Victims of Crime supports the amendment, and she is well versed in the needs and experiences of victims here. Secondly, as a woman, I can say with absolute clarity, because every woman whom I have ever spoken to in my life has experienced some sort of sexual misconduct, assault or something that should not have happened to them, that I would like that not to happen to anyone else. When a young person who potentially does not fully understand the repercussions of their actions is criminalised, the likelihood of their being educated about the fact that what they did was wrong, and why it was wrong, is slim.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Does he agree that the offence that he has just referred to is a problem throughout society, the root cause of which is misogyny? On that basis, would he accept that proper education and consistent relationships and sexuality education (RSE) training for all our young people would probably be more effective in reducing the frequency of those incidents than any proposed criminalisation of the offenders?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. With that attitude in mind, does he agree that there should be some repercussions for those who should know better who inflamed the situation and used incendiary language to send people out on to the streets?”
“I thank the Member for taking an intervention. You have raised something particularly upsetting, given how recent it was. Obviously, it is all speculation because we do not know the ages of anybody who was involved in that incident. It was upsetting for the intended victims and for everybody who witnessed it. However, I contend that that is a perfect example of why we need the legislation, because that resulted from racism, and there is no child with racism in their heart. That is learned behaviour. That is coercion. There is no 13-year-old who hates other people whose lives they do not understand. Somebody has made them do that, and we need to protect those young people.”
“Thank you for eventually giving way to me. I want to make a couple of points in response to what you have just contributed. First, on victims, are you aware that the Victims' Commissioner supports the change? Secondly, are you aware that a recommendation in 2011, following public consultation, showed that there was public support for the change? Thirdly, do you feel that it is very important that we have a debate in which you are heard, given that you have been instrumental in blocking the democratic result of the debate, as it would be if the debate were to be properly heard? What is the point in debating something that you have already blocked? You have already been a pawn for the DUP and allowed it to be blocked.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Does the Member acknowledge that, right now, the organisations listed by my colleague and by the Member who spoke before her have more faith in Sinn Féin than they do in the Minister for children?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Does the Member agree that victims were shamefully used last night to score cheap political points?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. To clarify, I do not want to be here.”
“You have allowed yourself to be part of petty politicking from the DUP, and you have blocked rights for children.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. You appear to be directing your speech at me. You have referred multiple times to the UN as if it is some hot take and as if the UN does not hold any clout in the world that we all operate in. In 1998, part of what was agreed was a bill of rights for the North, and the advice that we got during the previous mandate — your party blocked it. The same man who facilitated this tonight, Alan Chambers, was part of the Committee and blocked a bill of rights for the North after going through the process. A lot of the advice that we took — other Members were present — was based on the UNCRC to ensure rights for children, so every time that you sneer about the UN and refer to the great job that you have done tonight, you are blocking rights for children, Jon. That is what you have done here.”
“I, having read the amendments earlier, cannot understand how the Member misquoted that manslaughter was not included. Rape is included as an acceptable offence in the amendment. <BR /> <BR />This is all a waste of time because they have already deployed their petition of concern, and we are not getting to deliver for children anyway.”
“It is completely inappropriate for you to raise emotive arguments that are not relevant.”
“Thank you. On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Is it in order for a Member to refer to a case in a jurisdiction where the minimum age of criminal responsibility is exactly the same as it currently is in the North and where the minimum age of criminal responsibility had absolutely no relevance to the judiciary when sentencing the individuals?”
“If you are going to throw around insults, wail away, but consider that the evidence is stacked against you.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. This is completely pointless, given that you have allowed yourself to be used as a pawn in the DUP's game and used the POC to block this progressive amendment. You have repeated your insult here several times, and I believe that you said something in the media when you effectively said that the likes of me, Ms Mulholland and Mr McGlone were not fit to legislate for people. I remind the Member that all of us have the right to be here, engaging in the process. Advice that is based on the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child (UNCRC) states that member states should have a minimum age of criminal responsibility of at least 14. You talk about "ill-thought-out" legislation. That is advice from experts in law relating to the protection of children.”
“To clarify, the Member who has just spoken and his colleague both winked at me and said "Welcome back".”
“I do not require a delay. This is a farce and an abuse of parliamentary procedures, and I am no longer taking part. Slán.”
“I will always be careful with my language, so apologies if "used" was not the right term. "Stood with", "encouraged", "raised hands with" or whatever phraseology you want to use, the fact is that the DUP stood in a line with masked men to criticise grannies marching against the genocide in Gaza, and, then, a few days later, when it no longer suited the narrative, the DUP criticised masked men who were burning people out of their homes because of the colour of their skin. I used that example on the basis that you should exercise caution. You have been used — we all know that you have been used — and that is sad for you, but it is really sad for the children of the North of Ireland, who this legislation would have protected. That is the reality.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle”