Michael McGimpsey
South Belfast · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Bearing in mind that the election will be fought on issues around health, spiralling waiting lists, employment, and investment in education, does the First Minister believe that, in the event of a Brexit, 25% of our exports will continue to go to the Irish Republic, or does she believe there is a threat there?”
“I established the Health and Social Care Board and, when I left, there were 335 people working there. That figure is now somewhere over 600. It has been allowed to bloat by, roughly, a factor of two. The Minister needs to clarify whether most of those bodies are going to be moved into the Department.”
“I am disappointed with that answer. I would be surprised if, when my name appeared to ask a topical question, the Minister's officials did not come forward with a suggested list of topics that I was liable to ask about. That is the whole point of topical questions. I remind the Minister that Breda is a school designed for 850 pupils.”
“I will give way in a moment. <BR /> <BR />It is just as clear that response times are key for the Fire Service. The faster the response time, the more likely a successful outcome in dealing with the incident. <BR /> <BR />There is another issue here that I want to deal with.”
“<BR /> <BR />It is quite clear that the funding has been going down. It was £81·6 million in 2011 and £69·7 million in 2015, we are now down to around £65 million. The funding is going down, and it is preposterous to try to say that that will not compromise the service, a crew or the public.”
“There are a number of reasons why you underspend: it may be that it was not allowed to spend, or it may be that there are vacancy controls in place that prevent it from spending money on recruitment to replace personnel. Of course, 80% of its budget goes on personnel.”
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“Bearing in mind that the election will be fought on issues around health, spiralling waiting lists, employment, and investment in education, does the First Minister believe that, in the event of a Brexit, 25% of our exports will continue to go to the Irish Republic, or does she believe there is a threat there? If so, what steps does she believe we can reasonably take to protect that export trade?”
“I established the Health and Social Care Board and, when I left, there were 335 people working there. That figure is now somewhere over 600. It has been allowed to bloat by, roughly, a factor of two. The Minister needs to clarify whether most of those bodies are going to be moved into the Department. He is creating hundreds of Civil Service jobs, or am I missing something? Are they going somewhere else? How many are going to be civil servants in the future? How many Civil Service jobs is he creating?”
“I am disappointed with that answer. I would be surprised if, when my name appeared to ask a topical question, the Minister's officials did not come forward with a suggested list of topics that I was liable to ask about. That is the whole point of topical questions. I remind the Minister that Breda is a school designed for 850 pupils. It is now sitting at 1,000 pupils. Is there not now urgency to provide an appropriate building?”
“<BR /> <BR />Therefore, I implore everybody to support the amendment unanimously. There should be no cuts — we are told that they are not even happening anyhow — to the Fire Service budget. We should look to repair the damage that has been done over the past number of years. Our population is rising. The risks are rising. The incidents are more serious. The fatalities are rising. The injuries are rising. We have an opportunity now to give the Fire Service the support to address that.”
“There are a number of reasons why you underspend: it may be that it was not allowed to spend, or it may be that there are vacancy controls in place that prevent it from spending money on recruitment to replace personnel. Of course, 80% of its budget goes on personnel. It may be that that is one of the areas in which it has been prevented from spending its budget. Never mind that; we are now looking at cuts and reductions. It is disgraceful that we are doing so. We have a first-class Fire Service. Let us not do any more damage to it than has been done recently as far as cuts are concerned. We need to keep it in place. Every one of us, including the Minister, the proposer of the DUP amendment and so on, will need that support at some time in our life. We all want to make sure that it is in place.”
“Some excellent points were made by Members. The amendment from the SDLP is quite acceptable to us; we are happy to support it. We are not happy to support the DUP amendment. Gary Middleton and Tom Buchanan appeared to speak against their own amendment with the arguments that they made. They settled down by saying, "Oh, we will support the DUP amendment", but all their arguments appeared to be in a contrary direction. Either they are walking on both sides of the street at the same time or they do not believe what they have been told. That is an important issue. <BR /> <BR />We have a proposal, suitably amended, and we call on all Members to support it. I am told that the Fire Service has been underspending.”
“We were told by the Minister and by Mr Buchanan that that is not the case. Somebody needs to tell the Fire Brigades Union — presumably somebody has, and it does not believe you. It is clear that that very professional service understands what is coming. It knows what is proposed, never mind what we are being told here today.”
“Without getting into that argument, there is a national pay deal as far as consultants, doctors and nurses and so on are concerned, and woe betide us if we break away from that. Clinical excellence awards are a different issue, but there are clearly available funds to deal with the proposed cuts. The Minister tells us that no decision has been made. Tom Buchanan tells us that no decision has been made on downgrades at Portadown, Armagh, Newtownards, Omagh, Carrickfergus, Antrim and Coleraine. I suggest that you tell the Fire Brigades Union that because that is not its view. Presumably you have, and it does not believe you. <BR /> <BR />We are also looking at a proposal that will put four major towns — Strabane, Dungannon, Downpatrick and Enniskillen — at higher risk.”
“As Maeve McLaughlin said, it is not able to borrow from other fire services in the way that the services in England, Wales and Scotland are. It has to stand alone. It gets some support on occasion, including very welcome cross-border support, but the fact is that it has to stand alone.”
“I will give way in a moment. <BR /> <BR />It is just as clear that response times are key for the Fire Service. The faster the response time, the more likely a successful outcome in dealing with the incident. <BR /> <BR />There is another issue here that I want to deal with. It has been stated that there are 26% fewer mobilisations, yet the numbers of fatalities and injuries are rising. That suggests to me that the incidents that they are going out to are more serious, which actually argues against the point that Simon Hamilton is making with this reduction. They are clearly dealing with more serious incidents, and, therefore, they need support. The Fire Service is a very efficient organisation. Its cost per head of population is less than that in the rest of the UK. It is the most efficient fire service in the UK.”
“We are aware of this from discussing ambulances. It is just as clear with the Fire Service that —”
“<BR /> <BR />It is quite clear that the funding has been going down. It was £81·6 million in 2011 and £69·7 million in 2015, we are now down to around £65 million. The funding is going down, and it is preposterous to try to say that that will not compromise the service, a crew or the public. Anybody who says that is really not working their way through it. We have seen the number of personnel going down. There were 915 full-time personnel in 2011, and that has gone down to 845 and now 817. We now have 100 fewer. So, we are trying to provide a service to the people of Northern Ireland with less money and fewer personnel. That has been reflected in the response times. The response times are not as good as they used to be. In 2010, 75% of incidents were responded to within six minutes, and that is down to 59%.”
“I thank the Member. Yes, I agree. It is not safe or practical for the public, but it is also not safe for the fire crews themselves. We must always remember that the safety of crews is paramount. When I was Minister, and no doubt when Edwin was Minister, we operated under a principle of safe to manage. That was having the optimum crews and optimum supervision, whatever was needed, to attend an incident. It appears that that guiding principle has slipped. It is this old issue: if the rescuers who go in to rescue get into trouble, who rescues the rescuers? They must have the support. There must be an absolute guarantee of the principle that, as they put their lives on the line and risk their own safety, we have backup and support for them. It appears to me that that is not the case at the moment.”
“When Edwin Poots says that we have to stop and listen, we need to listen to our Fire Service, to our personnel, to the crews who have taken time off and come here in their own time to emphasise that they feel that they are not being fairly and properly treated and allowed to deliver the service that they expect and want to deliver.”
“I thank all Members who contributed to a very interesting and very good debate. A lot of issues have been brought forward as far as the proposed efficiency cuts to the Fire and Rescue Service are concerned. The first thing that we have to say — we all acknowledge this — is that we have a very good Fire Service in Northern Ireland. It is professional, dedicated to delivering a service to the people of Northern Ireland and it routinely, on a daily basis, provides a service that saves lives and prevents injury. It is a service that is and has been under pressure for some time. It is a service that has gone as far as it can in taking those pressures. The Fire and Rescue Service itself is saying that enough is enough.”
“I thank the Minister for that answer. Yes, I recall his visit to the Village. He is aware of large areas of vacant land in the Village area, as, indeed, there are in Hope Street, Wellwood Street, Sandy Row and Posnett Street in Donegall Pass. Those three communities have land sitting waiting for social housing. There is the need and the demand, and we are looking for a date — a notional date, at least — on which we can come to a decision.”
“The latest reports show that the Republic's economy will grow at around 5·8%, so there is a major differential between us and the Irish Republic. What steps are we taking and what proposals does the Minister believe we can come forward with to allow Northern Ireland to play catch-up and actually close the gap, rather than us lagging behind the Irish Republic?”
“Will the Minister explain what lessons she believes can be learned from the operation of the Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) at Westminster, particularly on managing the Budget and on dealing with so-called financial black holes and emergency borrowing from the Consolidated Fund?”
“Is he satisfied with the noise pollution policing regime, which is just a straight lift from a table on the mainland? In particular, is he satisfied with the regime around tonal quality, which is the worst type of definition of noise, when you get a tonal quality that is unbearable? You hear that around Belfast City Airport. Furthermore, is he satisfied that local authorities policing that regime is sufficient?”
“In view of the Minister's answers this afternoon, how much of the millions available through her boxing strategy has Sandy Row Boxing Club, acknowledged as one of the best established clubs in Belfast, received?”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. Can she assure me that, in respect of the various proposals for residents' parking schemes, she will effectively keep the pressure on her Department to get to a resolution and give these communities much-needed breathing space?”
“I too welcome the Minister to her first Question Time.”
“I thank Mr Ramsey. As I understand it, the PHA consultation had a 61% approval; it was not 50:50.”
“Will the Member take a point of information?”
“The changes that you propose are contained in Liam Donaldson's proposals. At the Committee and in previous utterances you estimated that it would take 18 months to deliver this change. I saw Liam Donaldson in the press over the weekend saying that that is far too long a time and that you must shorten it. Have you reconsidered your time frame?”
“It is up to us to give them the support and resources to allow them to deliver that. <BR /> <BR />Mr Speaker, I got your warning at the beginning about time. I do not need a huge amount of time to deliberate this through. I think that the Committee Stage is an appropriate stage to take it to and at which to deal with a number of these issues. In principle, for the prize that we get out of this, for the gain that we will make, for the lives that we will save and for the lives that will be lost if we do not go forward with this piece of legislation, I am happy to stop there, Mr Speaker, for the moment as far as this Bill is concerned other than to indicate again that I fully support this proposal.”
“We will be saying to a number of patients that we cannot help them, knowing that their prognosis will certainly be that they will come to harm. <BR /> <BR />I support the Bill and will continue to do so through its Committee Stage. There are important questions that have to be asked, and information is required. I believe that all those questions can be answered satisfactorily to allow us to go forward. It will be ground-breaking for us in the Assembly, and for our health service, to take those steps. It will also be strongly welcomed by our doctors and nurses working in the health service, who will have an opportunity to provide that key, special intervention. We have a workforce that is, by and large, dedicated to providing the very best support that they possibly can for their patients.”
“That is the appropriate way forward. <BR /> <BR />Issues have also been raised about consent and how it is freely given. We need to ensure that we have the views of donors, families and relatives. That is particularly important when talking about children, who do not have the capacity and who rely on their families. Those are all key issues. They are very difficult issues for the families concerned and for many adults in that situation. Those are things that we need to face. By facing them, we are saving lives, and that is what our health service is about and what we are about in the House. We must find a way forward that can provide life-saving interventions for patients who would not survive without them, and if we decide not to go forward with this legislation, that is, in effect, what we will be doing.”
“If they had the appropriate support, by which I mean organ donation, those children would get their lives back. When you are looking at wee ones of two, three and four years of age and think that they have a prognosis of only a year or two because of this situation, that is very difficult for families and for the doctors, nurses and staff dealing with that situation. <BR /> <BR />We have an opportunity here, through this process. The Bill is by no means done and dusted, and very important points were raised by Mr Easton and others that we need further information. We will want that information at Committee Stage to allow us to come to an informed decision. That is appropriate; that is what should happen with a Bill such as this. That is exactly what we should be doing, and I believe that that is exactly what the Committee will be doing.”
“Without organ donation and kidney transplant, patients will perish. I know that from personal experience of a friend of mine whom we lost last summer; he had been on dialysis for about five years but perished after that for want of a kidney. <BR /> <BR />That is particularly difficult for individuals and families, but it is especially difficult for children. We have situations in Northern Ireland where we are losing wee ones with their entire lives ahead of them and who could have their lives back and could be saved for want of the appropriate donation. Again, I had experience of that when I was Health Minister. I have no doubt that the Health Minister, when he visits the Children's Hospital now, will meet children in exactly that situation.”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise to support the Bill's Second Stage and indeed to thank Mrs Dobson for bringing it forward. I know the huge amount of work that has gone on in the background to get it to this stage. The situation can of course simply be put by the fact that we are losing patients annually for want of appropriate organs for transplant. Organs are absolutely life-saving in situations. We often talk about kidney dialysis. We assume that patients with kidney failure go on dialysis and that although it is inconvenient and might be difficult for them, it offers them a way out. In fact, the process has a limit. There is a limiting factor in it. Without appropriate donation, it lasts only so long.”
“How many staff are currently employed within the board? Since it performs a vital function of commissioning services from the trust, how many staff will be required for the new structure, which, I understand, he calls a directorate within the Department, and how many staff, if any, will therefore become surplus?”
“<BR /> <BR />We clearly need a holistic approach, as the phrase goes. Planning offices play a key role, as they give planning permission for huge out-of-town retail developments with free car parking. The provision of that unfair competition is strangling retail in Belfast. One only has to look at the sort of economic driver that Belfast is in Northern Ireland to see how precious it is. It must be preserved.”
“<BR /> <BR />Banding is one important area. Another important area is empty business rate relief. We charge empty premises rates. They get an exemption for a short period and then, after six months or a year, the owners, who maybe had to close their business because it was not profitable, are hit by rates, which is a tax. They get nothing for those rates, and their businesses just sit there, which is a huge disincentive. We could look at that area to see how we might support and help small retailers. If we do not do that, areas of dereliction will grow, and we will all face the challenge of what to do about empty premises. You only have to look at some of the streets in south Belfast, where areas of dereliction have lain that way year after year. No one is picking them up and taking them up.”
“That is repeated throughout south Belfast and, indeed, other parts of Belfast, whether east Belfast, north Belfast or west Belfast. <BR /> <BR />We need to look at the measures that we can take. For example, small business rate relief is due to end next year, I think in March 2016. That should be extended. It is a good scheme; it has provided some help to small retailers, and there is no reason why it cannot be extended. It was put in place for five years and extended for a year. Let us see it extended for another five years. Let us also look at expanding the bands to increase those reliefs. Poundage is another issue, which was raised by Claire Hanna. I see little prospect of City Hall managing to do anything about poundage, bearing in mind the very low rate increases this year. There does not seem to me to be a huge opportunity there.”
“Indeed, at City Hall, where I was for many years, we found out through an exercise — the Deputy Speaker may well remember it — that for every job created in a big shopping centre outside Belfast, we were losing two inside Belfast. There was a decision at that stage — this is going back 15 years — that those big shopping centres should be capped. Of course, they were not, and the challenge goes on. <BR /> <BR />What can we do about this? We were hit with the recession, which winds on in Northern Ireland — that combination of national and bank debt that sent the Western economies into a tailspin, and from which we suffer grievously. All of these are challenges. Look throughout south Belfast. Lisburn Road is just one street. My office is in Sandy Row; once a thriving retail area, now a shadow of its former self.”
“Look at the footfall on the streets where small businesses are found, which is much lower that the weighted average. That gives you an indication of the plight of small businesses. Remember that small businesses, by and large, are owned by local people; local families employing local people. Any profits that they make are retained in our economy. Any money that they spend is spent within our economy. Therefore, they provide real and genuine benefit for all in our society. They are, as has been said, seriously challenged not just by Internet shopping but by the growth of huge out-of-town shopping centres, which provide one thing that local businesses cannot, namely limitless free car parking. They are faced with an uncompetitive situation and are disadvantaged by huge shopping centres.”
“I begin by thanking Ms Hanna for bringing forward this debate on business rates in south Belfast. I also acknowledge and welcome the comments of Mrs Pengelly. <BR /> <BR />First, as far as local businesses are concerned, we must remember that south Belfast includes a large portion of the city centre. When you talk to small businesses, particularly retailers, they all tell you the same thing: they hate paying rates. They do not understand what they are getting for them. City Hall does not even empty their bins. They see it as taxation for which they gain no benefit. That might be unfair but it is the general viewpoint. <BR /> <BR />Look at the plight of small businesses, particularly in retail. The rate of dereliction in retail areas is about double the national rate.”
“They need to be replaced. They need that sort of investment. Like many of us, I was shocked to discover that, last year — again, Jim Wells told us — 50 young doctors who graduated from Queen's elected to go and work in Canada and Australia. Each one of those cost the health service £600,000 to train, and away they went. It seems to me that that is a fundamental problem. We have to hold on to our staff. We provide fabulous training. We have the plans, we need the investment and we must hold on to our staff.”
“When I asked Jim Wells why there was that increase, he said that 70 staff had been recruited specifically for TYC. So we have a TYC workforce in there doing the work. They know what they need to do. They have the plan. I think that they need to share it with us. I am not quite clear that any of us really understand what the plan is. The plan will have benchmarks, not least a time frame. <BR /> <BR />There are a number of issues here. A much greater burden will fall on general practice and primary care, so the investment needs to be there. We are told, for example, and it is true, that we have the lowest cover as far as GPs per head of population in Northern Ireland as opposed to the other home countries. Also, a percentage of our GPs now are heading towards the end of their career and looking forward to retirement.”
“<BR /> <BR />The big thing that you have in your favour when you are talking to the trade unions is that the health service is essentially their creation, so they want to make it work. They are onside, as are RCN and BMA, so it is not a conflict situation. It is always a situation of partnership. That is the very first thing that I want to see. As we move forward, I want to see re-engagement with staff side, otherwise we will continue in this sort of discussion with the deaf. <BR /> <BR />We also need to invest in our staff. For example, we talk about planning. The planning is there. The Health and Social Care Board, which I established with a cap of 350 members and no more, is the essential management tool of the health service. When I left there were 335, and it is now over 500, which is an increase of around 40%.”
“The very first thing that you have to do is engage with staff side — BMA, RCN and all the workforce. The representatives must understand what is happening, must not feel that they are being taken by surprise and must feel that they are part of the move. Like others, I was somewhat surprised to discover that the regional planning group excluded staff side and the trade unions. I found that very difficult to understand because, in my time at Health, I had regular engagement with staff side. Sometimes it was quite uncomfortable for me, but we did that on a regular basis. I took the view that, if the trade unions were not on board, whatever you wanted to do would be very difficult.”
“That is about moving care increasingly into the community. The principle of moving care into the community was that patients will do better. Patients who are looked after in their own homes will do better, will be happier and will live longer. Their life expectancy will be longer if we can manage to provide that care in the community, as opposed to a hospital setting. The hospital setting has been very much the traditional way that we do things. <BR /> <BR />The problem, of course, is how you move from one to the other. That needs front-loading and investment. You cannot simply say, "We are not taking them into hospitals. We are keeping them at home," and move staff from hospitals into the community. It cannot work like that. This needs a lot of planning. It needs different skill sets for our staff.”
“I support the motion on the review of workforce planning and our way forward. I note, as others have, that the Minister is absent, although I will make a prediction here: I think that we are about to see a U-turn, and I have no doubt that the next time that we all stand up to do such a debate, the Minister will be in place and the gag will be off George Robinson, for example, and his party colleagues will be allowed to take part in the debate. <BR /> <BR />This is an important issue. It is about having the right people in the right place at the right time, with the appropriate skills to address the needs of patients. It is clear that our health service is under enormous stress. We have a plan that we talk about, TYC, Transforming Your Care, which we used to call, in the Department, "shift left" and still sometimes do.”
“I refer to the Minister's answer. The fact was that there was a major issue about places. The Belfast Education and Library Board certainly stepped forward to solve that, but it did that via the provision of part-time places. Does the Minister agree that it is better to have full-time rather than part-time places and that children are suffering? We only have to look at the report that was published this week about the plight of Protestant working-class boys, educational underachievement —”
“We talked about Transforming Your Care, Donaldson and the review of commissioning. To start with, all those situations need to be front-loaded. They cannot be simply done by the stroke of a pen or the press of a button. They all need investment. All of them provide the answers on things such as consolidating acute services on fewer sites. We need to have those sorts of discussions in the future, but, right now, lives are at risk and being put in jeopardy. We need action, and we need it now — today. We need to hear from the Minister, whose job it is to provide leadership and strategic direction. Sadly, that leadership is lacking.”
“I am quite sure that Tom would like to get to his feet and say what he would like to say. I know, as we all do, that many Members of that party want to take part in this debate and feel exactly like the rest of us: that this situation cannot be ignored and that they have a clear moral responsibility to get in there in the middle of it but that is not happening for a political reason. It is wrong to mix politics with health. Health should be above politics. I think that you only have to listen to what the BMA, the RCN, staff side and the unions are telling us. All of us are saying the same thing: this crisis is fixable, but we need an emergency plan.”
“The political embarrassment that the DUP finds itself in, where only Tom Buchanan — yes, Tom Buchanan; I nearly forgot your name — is allowed in to listen to us and all the rest are kept out. We remember that, in debates like this when I was the Minister, mass hysteria broke out in the DUP ranks. Massed ranks of the DUP went into forms of hysteria in this type of situation. Here we have one individual, and he is not allowed to speak. That is disgraceful. That casts serious aspersions on the judgement of the DUP leadership and its willingness to shoulder responsibility.”
“Then we come to Simon Hamilton, who, as the Finance Minister, publicly and inexplicably criticised Edwin Poots and accused his own party member of being financially incompetent in managing the health service budget. Now Simon is telling us through the 'Belfast Telegraph' — not here and not at the Committee — that there is not enough resource and he needs more money etc. <BR /> <BR />We need this action plan, and we need it right now. That is the reality. This is an emergency situation that, I believe, is superior to all other crises. He has to get in there. We have lives at risk. Those lives at risk give him a moral imperative that he cannot ignore. I actually anticipate his return to his desk sooner rather than later.”
“Within three months, he was telling the Committee that he needed £300 million fast because the health service was in such a challenging situation. Of course, while he got some money through in-year monitoring — something that was not available to me — it was never quite enough. We are now in a situation where we are without the resource that we require. Ironically, Jim Wells gave exactly the same message when he was the Minister: we are short of the resource, and we cannot do this on the money that we have. <BR /> <BR />Indeed, one day, I stopped Sammy Wilson in the car park and said to him, "Look, Edwin Poots cannot do this on the money that he has been allocated". Sammy's response was to laugh and say, "Oh, I was far too generous as the Finance Minister". Well, Poots says that he was not. Wells says that he was not.”