Kate Nicholl
South Belfast · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“I thank the Minister for her humanity and her leadership. Many of the asylum seekers with whom I work do not fit into the illegal immigrant narrative; indeed, one woman with whom I worked was sold as a Daesh bride and was prostituted every day for two years, with her child often present.”
“It is a local number, and it has a chat function that people can use if they do not feel comfortable speaking directly. There is also an amazing charity called the National Association for People Abused in Childhood (NAPAC).”
“On behalf of the Alliance Party, I recognise the extraordinary and remarkable bravery and courage of the two victims. Yesterday's verdict will not undo the harm that was done to them, but, hopefully, it sends a clear recognition that what happened was wrong and that Jeffrey Donaldson will feel the full weight of the law.”
“I thank the Member for that answer. Recently, we held the national allergy strategy launch in the Long Gallery. I thank the catering team, led by Alan, for how well they dealt with that.”
“They have done so much for so many people in Northern Ireland, and we wish them well. They have gone through a difficult period. We hope that there is healing from this as they go forward.”
“The comments were violent and at a different level from anything that I have seen before. <BR /> <BR />We are in a difficult place right now. This destabilises our democracy. It is easy to believe lies when you are angry, and I am not sure what we do about it.”
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“I thank the Minister for her answer. It is important work that is being done. Will she provide a bit more detail on the custody navigator project, please?”
“I thank the Minister for her humanity and her leadership. Many of the asylum seekers with whom I work do not fit into the illegal immigrant narrative; indeed, one woman with whom I worked was sold as a Daesh bride and was prostituted every day for two years, with her child often present. With that in mind, will the Minister outline her Department's role in tackling modern slavery and human trafficking?”
“I thank the Member for that answer. Recently, we held the national allergy strategy launch in the Long Gallery. I thank the catering team, led by Alan, for how well they dealt with that. <BR /> <BR />Working with people who have serious allergies is often viewed as being just about catering and food, but it is up to all of us to know how we can support people as best we can. Would the Commission be open to looking at how more staff could be enabled to administer EpiPens and maybe at having EpiPens on-site so that we can support anyone who might need one?”
“They have done so much for so many people in Northern Ireland, and we wish them well. They have gone through a difficult period. We hope that there is healing from this as they go forward. To everyone else who has been impacted on and who is reliving awful things that have happened to them, please know that there is support and that we are here to support you.”
“It is a local number, and it has a chat function that people can use if they do not feel comfortable speaking directly. There is also an amazing charity called the National Association for People Abused in Childhood (NAPAC). I have been working with a number of constituents who were abused as children, and the impact of that abuse cannot be downplayed. It has stayed with them for their whole lives, and the silence compounds the trauma. As a society, and as an Assembly, we have to do everything that we can to allow people to come forward, and to make sure that they are supported when they come forward with that story, because so often, when you share what you have been through but are not supported in the way that is necessary, it can make it much worse. We have so much work to do. <BR /> <BR />The two survivors are remarkable.”
“On behalf of the Alliance Party, I recognise the extraordinary and remarkable bravery and courage of the two victims. Yesterday's verdict will not undo the harm that was done to them, but, hopefully, it sends a clear recognition that what happened was wrong and that Jeffrey Donaldson will feel the full weight of the law. It is a clear message that no one, regardless of what position they hold in society, is above the law. <BR /> <BR />We are conscious that there are two victims who have been at the centre of this and who have shouldered so much, but there are many other people watching who are reliving things that happened to them in their childhood — people who maybe have information that they have not passed on. The message is clear: if you come forward, justice can be done. The Nexus helpline is 0808 802 1414.”
“I know that the Minister agrees that it is in the Chamber that we will create a Bill that will work for the trade unions, business and everyone; it is in the Chamber that we should make the right legislation. What is the last date on which the Bill can be introduced for us to scrutinise it to the required level before the end of the mandate?”
“Solidarity to everyone who is going through this right now but especially to the first citizen of Belfast, who should not have been subjected to that.”
“The comments were violent and at a different level from anything that I have seen before. <BR /> <BR />We are in a difficult place right now. This destabilises our democracy. It is easy to believe lies when you are angry, and I am not sure what we do about it. I know that there is discussion about how new laws on cybersecurity need to be brought in, and I know that we need to address more of that. I am concerned about the bad actors at play, the misinformation and the inflaming of situations that are coming and about the fact that that is happening across society. We have to inform ourselves and challenge it when we see it and, when we engage — this might not sound like a theoretical thing to do — to do so with kindness and empathy, because we live in a dark time, and it is important that we bring that into our politics.”
“The other day, Suzanne Breen wrote a powerful article about the abuse that she has received as a journalist, and what struck me when she posted that on social media were the comments from other women and other people who said that they had been receiving the same sort of abuse. Looking around the Chamber, I am sure that everyone here has received similar. There has been a noticeable change in the comments that we get in response to what we put on social media. We all have thick skin, and we have all been around for long enough to deal with the cut and thrust of politics, as it is often described here, but there has been a shift and a change. I had never had to report the comments that I received to the police, but I had to do that last week. Awful things that brought in families were said.”
“A few days ago, the world's first trillionaire, Elon Musk — a man with no mandate; an immigrant with wealth twice the GDP of the country that he came from — commented on a photo of the first citizen of Belfast and described her as a "Betrayer of her people". As a former Lord Mayor, I was not only shocked that someone who bought that social media platform to spread his ideological views would comment on the first citizen of Belfast but surprised that there was not more commentary on it. I feel strongly that Elon Musk has no real idea of what people across the world are going through, let alone those in Belfast. <BR /> <BR />That comment spoke to something more sinister that is going on in our society. In the news, there have been comments about how proxies have attacked the Prime Minister.”
“The Chair of the Committee is always very gallant in giving way. It strikes me that the approaches are different. Those who support the amendment are focusing on the child's perspective, and you are coming more from the victim's perspective. The Member can clarify that. What is his analysis of Victim Support supporting the rise of MACR to 14 and the adoption of a welfare-based approach, as opposed to forcing young people through the criminal justice system, as the best way to protect victims?”
“A lot of work needs to be done, and I hope that we can have the courage, empathy and capacity to move beyond it, because there are people in our society who are terrified right now and need our leadership.”
“Why are people asking volunteers to do that work? Who is coordinating the response? We need to make sure that we have a clear, actionable plan in place for when such things happen. <BR /> <BR />I said last week that it was not the time to have a conversation about migration because I was absolutely terrified that there would be riots or some kind of response. We have to be so careful with our language. We need to make sure that we have plans in place. We need to have sensible policy discussions, and we need to stop blaming people for the really awful things that are happening in our society. To blame it on the Justice Minister is absolutely disgusting. We need to be beyond that.”
“We saw what happened in Ballymena. I know kids who just did not go to their swimming lessons for months afterwards. They are feeling it. We can, of course, have a conversation about migration, but it needs to be done sensitively and without adding fuel to a really fraught situation. We also need to remember that we do not have a say over migration; that is for the Home Office. <BR /> <BR />If we are to talk about anything that needs to be done, let us talk about how we coordinate a response, because this is the third year that it has happened. What happens when people are burnt out of their house? Who leads on that? Which person in the Department for Communities will coordinate the response? Why do 200 people have to be found houses by volunteers from a church? Why did Matthew O'Toole have to drive people to his constituency office?”
“I have spent the last few days with people in my constituency who have been burnt out of their houses, with someone who had their shop burnt down for the second time and with communities who are sheltering in a church. I saw a boy doing a GSCE exam online in a church because he was too afraid to go to school. So many children from minority ethnic backgrounds have not been going into school. A cancer doctor texted me and said, "How do I go into work tomorrow? How do I send my kids into school?". The fear is palpable. <BR /> <BR />I have said that I am happy to have a conversation about migration, but, when we bring it into those contexts, we conflate the issues and make it seem like there is anything that justifies the violence and hate that is happening in our society. The riots will stop, but the impact on those children will last.”
“Mr Speaker, I am grateful that you have allowed extra time to have this conversation. Thank you very much. <BR /> <BR />Some 90% of those seeking international protection in the South came from Northern Ireland, so can we please address that misconception? To blame the Justice Minister for the situation, when she has no role in managing migration, is, frankly, disgusting politicking.”
“We need to be better than this. People are watching us to see that we are. I thank everyone else who has shown leadership, and I hope that others are able to provide it in the days ahead.”
“Today. Later today, but not right now. Today is about —.”
“Let us have that discussion later, not now. Right now —.”
“That is not for today, Timothy. Let us have that conversation on another day. Today is about coming together —”
“It is about making sure that the police have the space, access and information that they need and that communities — people in their homes right now — are not frightened that there will be retaliation. Communities have seen what is happening in their streets and are worried that it may happen to one of them. I acknowledge that there are real concerns and that they are not far-right. What happened last night was terrifying. We can show leadership now by coming together and seeing how we can get through this peacefully. We must not agitate. We must not stir things up. It is dangerous to talk about anger. It is dangerous to —.”
“This is not just about Northern Ireland, because we are being watched from everywhere else. It is on the news in Britain. Actors across the world are watching how we react. <BR /> <BR />This is a place that overcame the insurmountable. This is a place that is a testament to politicians coming together to work through difficult issues to ensure peace and safety for all. That is the situation that we are in right now. There has been a sea change. We are in a volatile place right now, and I am worried for everyone in our communities. I want us to have a society in which everyone is safe and protected. <BR /> <BR />The narrative today is about calm.”
“<BR /> <BR />I have different views from other people on so many of these issues because I have worked with people who have come here from other countries. I know that small children are not a threat. They have come here just to make a new life. I do not want to get into that discussion now. On another day, let us have a grown-up, respectful conversation about how we manage migration, how we ensure that support is in place, how we ensure that there is integration and how we manage our services. Today, however, is about something awful that happened in our society: something that should never have happened. Everyone is reeling from it. What happened was wrong. We need to come together. This is a test of our leadership, and it is about how we go forward.”
“I had not intended to speak, but, following the interventions from Jonathan Buckley and Timothy Gaston, I feel compelled to. <BR /> <BR />What happened last night should never have happened. It was the most brutal, depraved and horrendous attack. I watched the video as well. I wish that I had not, and I wish that no one sees it. It was awful. It was horrific. We have to condemn the attack, and we have to ensure that everyone feels safe. Yes, people will be frightened right now, and I acknowledge that. Right now, our job as leaders is to come together and ensure that there is calm. I thank everyone who has contributed to the debate with such dignity and responsibility, because we are dealing with a highly emotive topic.”
“That is our job: to look, without judgement, at how the legislation impacts on all of them. Does the Member agree that, when we discuss this, we must not sensationalise it, get into whether one agrees with prostitution — it is a fact that it happens; we need to make sure that we have all the support in place — or spin it so that it becomes something salacious? It is purely about how the legislation impacts on groups of people, especially a tiny group of people.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. When I was phrasing this, I was careful to avoid getting into this narrative. It is tempting to do that, and it may do well in clicks on social media, but that is not the point. The point is that, when we bring legislation to the House — I wonder if the Member agrees with me — we need to scrutinise it and to look at it from all angles. I have said multiple times that this is a worthy amendment that is trying to tackle the infrastructure that facilitates trafficking. However, there are a small group of women —. You can speculate and make your own moral judgements on it; go ahead. But I have met these women and worked with some of them, and they have told me that it is their choice. My concern is about how those women were going to be protected under this law.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I was fascinated by the completely bizarre situation that he just outlined. How does he think that the current laws benefit people? Did he not hear what my party leader said about how freedom of religion and freedom from religion go hand in hand? Is that a concept that he understands, or does he reject it completely? Can he not see that you are able to have religious freedom and express yourself only because everyone else has the right not to, and does he not want to live in a society in which everyone is free to have their own beliefs and everyone's beliefs are respected? I would really like to know how the current blasphemy laws benefit people. Does he think that dead laws should just be kept? What would happen if we were to change our regime completely and we had different politicians here?”
“This, however, is our job: it is about shaping our laws and creating a future for the next generation. When the Assembly looks to the future and at how we can craft laws that will make life better for everyone in this society, that is when we are doing the real work and our real job. I thank everyone involved in the Bill, but especially my party leader, the Minister of Justice.”
“Everyone in the House wants to protect against religious persecution, and that is what this really is about: making sure that blasphemy laws do not violate against the fundamental rights of freedom of expression and freedom of religious belief. It is so important that we are brought into line. I thank my colleague Connie Egan, who has done so much work on the issue, I thank the Minister for being so passionate, and I thank everyone who intends to support the amendment. <BR /> <BR />Finally, there is so much important work in the Justice Bill, and this is the work that we are meant to do. I thank the Justice Minister for all her work and other Members for tabling amendments. We started the day having conversations that may not reflect all of us, as happens when we get into the politics.”
“It was just to put that on the record. I appreciate the work that has been done, and I know that the Minister has done a lot in the Department. <BR /> <BR />This is my final point. I told my group that I was going to speak for only a minute on organised crime, but I just have to touch on the blasphemy laws. Repealing them is about protecting against religious persecution and bringing us into line with the rest of the UK. As you know, dead law can be revived at any time. The Assembly may not always have such sensible, compassionate people in it, so our laws have to reflect our values and what we want.”
“The amendments set out what specifically constitutes organised crime, which can take many forms, and define and specify and empower and ensure that organised crime can be dealt with effectively, called out and not allowed to fall under the radar. <BR /> <BR />I want to touch on a few other things. I really enjoyed Mr Frew's explanation of the vagrancy laws. He really brought it to life, and there was a wonderful historical context behind it. I really enjoy his contributions, even in length. <BR /> <BR />In case there was any misconception about what I said, I clarify that I support amendment No 75. Dismantling trafficking infrastructure is very important. When we as legislators look at amendments, we need to make sure that we consider their full impact. There are some very vulnerable women out there who could be made more vulnerable.”
“We all know that organised crime groups cause enormous harm to people in Northern Ireland, and generations have been exploited by such groups. The proposed amendments seek to address the legacy of organised crime in our communities and stop the exploitation of communities that leads to educational underachievement, family breakdown, substance abuse and so much more. <BR /> <BR />With the appropriate amendments to make the legislation work in practice, it will provide a pragmatic approach to combating organised crime and ensuring that those involved face repercussions. It must be remembered that this is a real issue affecting real people in our communities. I know that the Minister of Justice is passionate about addressing this and, as such, it should be dealt with practically and efficiently.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I will not take that long. <BR /> <BR />I start by thanking Aoibheann and Jack from Rathmore Grammar School and Joel from Bangor Grammar School who helped with my research for this speech. I am delighted to speak on amendment Nos 45 to 48, as they deal with a major issue that greatly affects our communities. As the Minister noted, Northern Ireland is now the only part of the UK with no bespoke organised crime legislation, despite the unfortunate deeply embedded nature of it in our society. The proposed amendments create much-needed clarity for our criminal justice system and empower it to identify and take action against organised crime and those who engage in such activity across Northern Ireland.”
“<BR /> <BR />My point was simply that there are women — I have met them; I know them — who, for whatever reasons — I do not cast judgement. I do not want anyone to have to engage in sex work, but it is one of the oldest trades in history. My question was about how those women who could be more vulnerable could be made more vulnerable and whether that had been considered. I do not want to make a big statement about how prostitution or sex work is something that all women want to get into. I just want to recognise that it is a fact and that there are some women who choose that. They have told me about their lived experience, and it is about respecting that and ensuring that they have the support that they need.”
“Well, you said that people were implying that it was a choice and you did not believe it was a choice. When I made my comments, I said that it was a contested view. There are radical feminists who believe that any form of prostitution is violence against women and girls. There is a spectrum of views. My point is that I have worked with sex workers who said that, if they were to come up against an issue — this was at the time of Lord Morrow's Bill — they were worried that it would be more difficult for them to get support from the police. I separated that out and said that we absolutely needed to dismantle the infrastructure of trafficking. We support Paul Frew's amendment, and we think that it is worthy.”
“<BR /> <BR />I am 100% behind you on the work to end trafficking, and you are completely right that dismantling the infrastructure is a key part of that. My only question is about people who willingly engage in sex work. We can debate whether you agree that it is or not, but they are not trafficked and they are sex workers. Are you confident that they will not be made more vulnerable? Are there any mechanisms in place that can ensure that those people can get support, should they need it?”
“Thank you. Yes, I completely agree when we are talking about people who have been trafficked. Some of the people whom I have met — they have come to me — have chosen sex work. We can have a whole debate about whether that is violence against women or not; there is a whole feminist argument about that. Those are people who may be doing that independently on their own and are not trafficked or pimped. My question to you is this: are you confident that the legislation will not move those people further away from getting support? It is one of the things that we may have had a difference of opinion about years ago when we were discussing clause 4 of Lord Morrow's Bill, which was to do with the criminalisation of payment for sex and whether that drove it further underground so that people found it harder to get access to support.”
“I thank the Member very much for giving way. I applaud his passion and the work that he has done on amendment No 78. It is clearly very important. No one wants anyone to be in prostitution, but I am mindful that I have worked with some sex workers who have come to me for support. They have often felt very far away from support. If, as a society, we are trying to help people in whatever way that we can, will the Member speak to how people who are already vulnerable will not be made more vulnerable as a result of the legislation?”
“They did not do that to Pat Sheehan and others. How do we have a conciliatory discussion about the Bill so that we can move forward together?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I wonder whether he shares my observation. I have been reflecting that a lot of the same things are being said today in the Chamber. A lot of Members are saying, "Yes, we need inspection", and, so far, we will vote for the Bill to pass Second Stage so that we can balance what needs to be done. However, I am also hearing that one of the main concerns that people opposed to the Bill have is that they do not trust the Minister. Given that this afternoon's debate has not been conciliatory, how can we garner trust so that teachers who are watching can feel confident that the Assembly is listening, even if Members have different views about how we get there, and that we can put children at the heart of the debate and deal with each other appropriately? It was not acceptable that Members heckled Cathy Mason.”
“Over 72% of those who said that they lived in Northern Ireland agreed with the proposal and said that all hunting, including searching, coursing, capturing or killing wild animals with dogs, should be banned in Northern Ireland. A staggering 80·45% said that ending the hunting of wild animals with dogs was important to them, and 70·35% said that they fully supported the intentions of the Bill. Those results show the strength of feeling on the matter. <BR /> <BR />I believe that it is morally wrong to kill for pleasure. I do not think that tradition is an excuse for cruelty. I agree with what John said: we are a nation of animal lovers. That is why I am proud to support the Bill, and I urge everyone to consider the importance of animal welfare and the public support for the legislation and to support the Second Stage of the Bill.”
“The Bill is informed by the Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Act 2023 and slots into an existing regulatory framework for protecting wildlife, as set out in the Wildlife (Northern Ireland) Order 1985. The important point to focus on in the debate is that the Bill is not about criminalising ordinary dog walking, or any ordinary or legal countryside activities. A dog chasing an animal does not constitute an offence, and the Bill will not treat it as such. It focuses on the deliberate hunting behaviour by the owner or participant. It does not affect shooting, angling or drag hunting but merely intends to close loopholes and provide a stronger framework for enforcement while preventing animal cruelty, preserving biodiversity and protecting landowners' families, crops and livestock. <BR /> <BR />My final point is that public opinion is clear.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Bill desires to prohibit the hunting of wild animals with dogs, trail hunting and terrier work in Northern Ireland. I credit my colleague John for explaining ad nauseam that the Bill is not about banning hunting with a gun. Rather, it is about banning trying to kill wild animals with a dog. The Bill will not prevent animal cruelty in Northern Ireland, as there will always be elements of that, but it will play its part in preventing that type of cruelty. It is also about the disturbance of protected habitats, the disruption of ecosystems and disease concerns. My colleague David Honeyford regularly talks about the impact of disease on farms. Hunting is a source of entertainment and, as outlined by the British Pest Control Association, is not a legitimate form of pest control.”
“I do not agree with that. I have heard your points, and of course there is suffering in nature. What happens in nature is often horrific for us to witness, but the Bill is about humans instigating that suffering. For me, the Bill is fundamentally about addressing animal cruelty, and, to be honest, when we get into a tangled conversation about it, I feel that such arguments are a means of defence because it is inconvenient to say otherwise. We are justifying the deliberate killing of animals for pleasure and sport. I find that very hard to get my head around. This is about the sort of society in which we want to live, and so many of my constituents are so passionate about the issue. We have received so many emails in the past number of weeks from people who are genuinely very distressed by it.”
“Hunting with dogs is cruel and unnecessary and is incompatible with a modern society. It has been proven that foxes, deer and hares are physiologically and psychologically damaged when chased by a hunt, regardless of whether it results in death. One of my constituents who is watching the debate emailed me to say that they are really frustrated by the argument that hunting with dogs is no worse than what happens in nature. They made the clear point that that statement does not justify human-inflicted suffering. Of course what happens in nature is cruel, but why do we add to that cruelty?”
“I will start by congratulating my colleague John Blair. I am really proud of him. He has been working on the Bill for so long and is so passionate about the issue. My son was with me when I was coming into Stormont this morning, and I pointed at John and said, "There's John. He has a really big day today". I explained to my son what the Bill is about, and he asked, "Why would anyone want to do that?". He was thrilled to have a chat with John about why the Bill is so important. John therefore deserves recognition for his tenacity and determination in developing the legislation. <BR /> <BR />The Bill is really important. I am conscious that I am a South Belfast MLA, but I grew up in rural Zimbabwe, where hunting is very normal. I am therefore passionate about the issue.”
“All of us in the Assembly can get behind this and make sure that every child who leaves primary school is able to swim 25 metres.”
“<BR /> <BR />Another point made to me is that what happens is that children go swimming maybe for one term of the year. They will get the bus to the swimming lesson. Then they will stop going. It is not consistent. They would be better off going every day for one week, and they would be a much better swimmer. <BR /> <BR />We can do a lot around policy work that is being done not just with the Education and Communities Departments but with Infrastructure. The key barrier to being able to swim is the cost of transport. Swimming lessons in themselves are a lot cheaper, so it is about access to the swimming lessons. There is a lot more that we can do. It is relatively cheap. Look at what is being done in Manchester: for very little money, they have been able to make a tangible difference.”
“We know that swimming is part of the Northern Ireland curriculum, but it is not mandatory, nor is it consistent in the way that it may be in other parts of the UK. There is no minimum standard. GLL told me that the number of children who can swim 25 metres unaided is declining. Right now, 30% of children leave year 7 unable to swim 25 metres. If that number continues to decline, we will reach a stage where we have a whole generation of adults who are unable to be safe in water. <BR /> <BR />I am really passionate about it: swimming is an essential life skill not just for water safety but for its health benefits. We know what the cost of physical inactivity is to the economy. It is a no-brainer. We need to make sure that every child is able to swim.”