Nuala McAllister
North Belfast · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“I have submitted quite a number of questions for written answer on autism services, and the answers, sometimes on the same day from the Department, contradict themselves. The Minister often refers to the emotional health and well-being framework as the idea that will frame all of the uniform services.”
“Absolutely. Everyone is taking my speech; I was going to say that. Of course, it is complex and subjective to the individual person. If we are truly talking about keeping an individual safe and other prisoners safe, we would not do what the amendment proposes; we would carry on in the way that the system already operates, using a risk-bas…”
“I thank the Member for his question. The Assembly Commission is progressing a programme of remedial works to address defects identified in the roof of Parliament Buildings and to protect the long-term integrity of this grade A listed building. The works have been structured in two phases.”
“More often than not, we have conversations in the Chamber or in public about trans women, but that would place a trans man who has been convicted of a violent crime against a woman in a prison with women. It does not make sense, and it is not coming from the perspective of safety; it is coming from ideology.”
“In providing catering services throughout Parliament Buildings, the Assembly Commission strives to meet the differing demands of the special dietary needs of our wide customer base.”
“I support amendment No 96 and oppose amendment No 97. I do not plan to speak to amendment No 96, as there were a number of interventions last night, and I will leave many of the remarks to my party colleague the Minister of Justice. <BR /> <BR />We oppose Timothy Gaston's amendment.”
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“I have submitted quite a number of questions for written answer on autism services, and the answers, sometimes on the same day from the Department, contradict themselves. The Minister often refers to the emotional health and well-being framework as the idea that will frame all of the uniform services. Will we ever get to a time when there will be services that are subjective to the individual but uniform in that, no matter where you live in Northern Ireland, whether Fermanagh or Belfast, if you have a child who is awaiting an autism diagnosis or has autism, you can avail yourself of a service that is open to everyone?”
“The Minister has been part of the Assembly for some time, and this is her second mandate as a Minister, so I wonder whether she can provide clarity on whether, during that time, such outspoken concerns were expressed about the safety of women prisoners as vociferously and passionately as they have been in recent months?”
“Therefore, rather than jumping the gun and using amendment 97 to push something through that has the potential to be dangerous, Alliance will oppose it.”
“Absolutely. Everyone is taking my speech; I was going to say that. Of course, it is complex and subjective to the individual person. If we are truly talking about keeping an individual safe and other prisoners safe, we would not do what the amendment proposes; we would carry on in the way that the system already operates, using a risk-based approach that is carried out by professionals in the Prison Service. <BR /> <BR />The Equality Commission asked for further clarity from the High Court, and it is important to give time for that because it is a complex issue, and we need to allow that space. I have faith that the current arrangements work, and there have been no negative consequences because of them. Replacing those arrangements with a system that is a blunt tool opens up more risks and safety questions.”
“I thank the Minister for her intervention.”
“No, I will not give way. Do you know what? I do not want the debate to enter into an attack on people”
“In a moment. A trans man can be convicted of a violent crime against a woman or multiple women that is not a sexual crime.”
“You are saying that they would not have the same strength. I will not dignify that with an answer, but —.”
“I thank the Minister for that intervention. I was going to add that, but, as usual, the Minister has put it much better than I could.”
“More often than not, we have conversations in the Chamber or in public about trans women, but that would place a trans man who has been convicted of a violent crime against a woman in a prison with women. It does not make sense, and it is not coming from the perspective of safety; it is coming from ideology. <BR /> <BR />The amendment is also flawed because it makes reference to the 2010 Equality Act, which, as the other two Members have said, does not apply in Northern Ireland. I appreciate that the Member referred to the recent Supreme Court judgement referring to Scottish prisons, which made a ruling on the definitions used in the Equality Act. However, given that the Act does not apply here, there are still questions —.”
“I support amendment No 96 and oppose amendment No 97. I do not plan to speak to amendment No 96, as there were a number of interventions last night, and I will leave many of the remarks to my party colleague the Minister of Justice. <BR /> <BR />We oppose Timothy Gaston's amendment. I do not plan to mention too much about it, but I believe that it is a cynical attempt to bring culture wars and ideology, instead of security and safety for people in the prison system. The amendment would require the Department of Justice to issue guidance on the accommodation of men, ensuring that they are not held in prison accommodation containing one or more women.”
“The Assembly Commission recognises that the issue has been a long and protracted one. Thankfully, the extent of the deterioration in courtyards 1, 2 and 3 is less significant than initially anticipated. However, early investigations have identified some additional complexities, including localised stone deterioration and issues in courtyard 8. Those are being carefully managed, and, where necessary, interim works may be brought forward to address any emerging risks. We recognise that the issue is long-standing and ongoing, but we are processing it and ensuring that the works are being done as quickly as possible.”
“Subject to the outcome of those investigations, a full programme of works will be developed to address the remaining issues.”
“I thank the Member for his question. The Assembly Commission is progressing a programme of remedial works to address defects identified in the roof of Parliament Buildings and to protect the long-term integrity of this grade A listed building. The works have been structured in two phases. Phase 1 focuses on priority health and safety works, including repairs to the rear parapet and internal courtyards, where scaffolding is currently in place. A contractor has been appointed and works are under way, with completion expected by the end of August 2026. Phase 2 will address wider water ingress issues across the remainder of the roof. That phase will include detailed investigations, the development of options and the appointment of an integrated consultancy team to inform the full scope of works.”
“It has also advised that halal-certified products in its supply chain are pre-stunned prior to slaughter, which is common industry practice in the UK and the EU, rather than slaughtered using non-stun methods. In short, the answer is no.”
“In providing catering services throughout Parliament Buildings, the Assembly Commission strives to meet the differing demands of the special dietary needs of our wide customer base. The service provider is required to provide various dietary options, such as diabetic and low-salt options, options relating to allergies and food intolerances and options for ethnic, religious and other diets, including vegetarian and vegan diets, that may be requested from time to time. The Assembly Commission's current service provider's meat suppliers have confirmed that, as standard, all chicken fillets are certified as halal. All other meat products that are currently supplied are not halal-certified.”
“It is important to note that the Public Accounts Committee, on which many MLAs in the Chamber sit, has also requested that that work be undertaken. Also, any regulations will be scrutinised by the Committee and in the Chamber.”
“There are other people who undergo cycles of IVF through the NHS and then also pay for it privately who do not get a positive result in the end. Many of them never get answers to why it was not successful. We have to have the best options available for those people so that they, too, can get that joy in the end.”
“We all know that the wait takes much longer, because, while you may wait a certain time for a physical appointment, it is not as simple as waiting six months to conceive and then getting your appointment. There is year on year of delay, and, if there are negative results at the end of it, for many couples, we are talking about a wait of more than five years. <BR /> <BR />In my family, I have been lucky and privileged enough to have had two children without any issues, but number 16 of the McAllister grandbabies was an IVF baby whom we call "our miracle", baby Joy. Baby Joy brought immense joy to our family. It is difficult to witness the people whom you love looking at the people around them — family and friends — continuing to have babies when they are not so lucky.”
“<BR /> <BR />Following on from the comments of Mrs Dodds, we were told that there was a need for an increase in the physical footprint of the regional fertility centre, but it would be interesting to hear what actual work has been progressed on that, if anything at all has been done. At the end of the day, business cases will have to be made and all feasible options will have to be looked at, so it would be helpful if the Minister could outline what work has been done so that, when we are in a position to finance second and third cycles, we can move to that without delay. <BR /> <BR />We are all aware that people currently undergo just one full cycle of IVF, but it is not as simple as getting an appointment at the regional fertility clinic and then undergoing treatment.”
“I thank the Members who tabled the motion and the Fairness in Fertility campaign group members who are in the Public Gallery. <BR /> <BR />Alliance has long been committed to ensuring that couples can access fertility treatment on an equal basis across these islands, not just on an equal basis but on a basis on which they can receive a positive result at the end. Like many Members, we are aware that there are limited funding options, so the move to a three-cycle system is the right approach in that sense, but it is really disappointing, given Robin Swann's announcement a number of years ago, that we have not seen an increase in the number of cycles.”
“Regardless, Minister, we need a long-term solution. To that end, what work has your Department done on long-term planning for recruitment and retention to ensure that we will have a workforce and that the system does not collapse?”
“Minister, you said in a previous answer that there had been a pay erosion of "around 8%". However, the BMA have said that, since 2008, consultants are 26% worse off, SAS doctors are 21% to 25% worse off, and resident doctors are 20% worse off, so I am not sure where the difference in the figures comes from.”
“It has been brought to the attention of Education Committee and Health Committee members. The Ray Jones review recommendations cut across Education and Health. As you are aware, Minister, looked-after children are already dealt a pretty raw deal, so I emphasise that you should go away and make this a priority. We know that budgets are constrained for all Departments, but these are very vulnerable children who are already dealing with so much on their plates in their family lives, and having that service in school is crucial for them.”
“Not too far from King's Park Primary School is Our Lady Of Lourdes Primary School, Park Lodge in North Belfast. That school had its funding approved for its capital build of 12 additional classrooms. Given that there was a three-year delay between the previous approval and this funding release, can the Minister assure the House, including my North Belfast MLA colleagues and me, that there will not be even further delay to getting the groundwork started and having the classrooms completed?”
“How will you ensure that there is proper accountability for senior figures who have moved around trusts and into your Department who were involved not only in this issue but in the issues relating to the hyponatraemia inquiry?”
“Minister, thank you for coming here and making the statement. However, if you will allow me, Mr Speaker: many of the families of children and patients who were in Muckamore Abbey Hospital are sitting in the Gallery. In particular, I pay significant tribute to Glynn Brown, who was instrumental in uncovering a lot of the abuse that happened there. We also pay tribute to Timmy Jones, the son of our Alliance colleague, Mervyn Jones, and Dawn Jones. Many families have worked hard over the years to uncover abuse and speak up for many people who do not have a voice. <BR /> <BR />The inquiry report raises serious questions about leadership and governance in the Belfast Trust during the period, a period when the hyponatraemia inquiry was ongoing. Members of that trust leadership now hold substantial roles in your Department and other trusts.”
“The Member and I and, possibly, one or two others in the Chamber have children who are about to go into primary 6 and to reach the age of 10. As a parent, do you agree that the idea that, in just a few short months, your child could be held criminally responsible for something that they might carry out is absolutely absurd? No child is an absolute angel, but is it not absurd that a child aged 10, as our children will be in a few short months, in P6, could be held criminally responsible?”
“It is important to highlight the point that not all of these children have parents. Almost 60% of the young people who come into contact with the juvenile justice system, even those who are not incarcerated, are under the care of the state.”
“It will not be commenced until they are put in place. Yes, we have slow progress here when it comes to certain issues in the Executive and the Health Department. However, as someone who sits on the Health Committee — other Members have made this point — I can say that, when we see implementation of the Ray Jones review, for example, it is up to us as legislators and MLAs who scrutinise to hold them to account. It would not be commenced until it happens. Yes, ultimately, I believe that it would happen.”
“The Minister has already outlined, as has my colleague who is one of the co-signatories to the amendment, that it would not be commenced until the frameworks were in place. Some of the work has already been done by way of the Ray Jones review and the recommendations that he made regarding interaction between youth justice and social services. We can also look at what happened in Scotland, the Republic of Ireland and many other jurisdictions. There is best practice — we do not need to reinvent the wheel — and we can take that best practice. That is important. Ultimately, however, it would not be commenced until those were in place.”
“On the point that the Member has just made, there is a lot of evidence and research, particularly by academics in the field of psychiatry, on a child's understanding. The development of the brain is not black and white but fluid. There is therefore a possibility that children will understand right and wrong on different levels. In last night's debate on the amendment, there was acknowledgement around the Chamber that there was an element of political consensus to get something passed. We have to acknowledge that. It is acknowledged that there are complexities to the development of children's brains. What is the difference between a child of nine and 300 days and a child of 10 who carry out such crimes?”
“I thank the Member. I do not remember the point on which I wanted to intervene.”
“I thank the Member for reminding me, because I have no recollection of that. It was obviously correct at Second Stage, because no amendments had yet been tabled, so we were not talking about that issue. That is OK. I do not understand the point that the Member is trying to make. It does not further the debate or cement his side of the argument. If he wants to talk about the minimum age of criminal responsibility, he should do it now, because this is his opportunity.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I asked questions of the Member as a Member. However, if the Member got the statistics as the Minister of Education and is using them, that is up to him. At no point did I ask him a question as Minister of Education; I asked him as a Member. If he is entitled to use the statistics, I am entitled to ask him questions about them.”
“Given that you have said that the system results in a very small number of young people being involved in the criminal justice process, you are making the point for us.”
“I thank the Member. You have gone back to the point about the incidents that take place in schools. No one is saying that they do not. However, might you be able to shed some light on the figures of 500 and 1,000? How many of those incidents took place in a special needs school or involved a young person with a special educational need or a learning disability? Is the Member aware that the Police Service of Northern Ireland has been called to special schools in Northern Ireland to use force on children who have a learning disability or, perhaps, have severe autism? As a member of the Policing Board, I have seen some of the body-worn footage in which the police have been forced to use the powers that they have. Do you honestly believe that criminal intervention is the right way to deal with those children?”
“We should seek to protect those people to ensure that their rights are protected and that they have a future. I am standing up not just for those people but for all victims — young people, adults and any other young person who needs a voice — because they, too, deserve a future.”
“I thank the Member for her intervention. <BR /> <BR />I note that the Victims' Commissioner has come out in support of raising the age of criminal responsibility. Furthermore, evidence from countries where the age has been raised shows that there are fewer victims because there are more interventions in those countries, especially in education and with parents. It has been shown that, when you intervene in the best way to achieve the best outcome for a child, the result is fewer victims. <BR /> <BR />In conclusion, I highlight that we are talking about today is a very small group of people in society who are exploited. They have come through trauma, and it is more than likely that they are living below the poverty line and in communities where they can be exploited. Their parents may already have had interactions with social services.”
“I thank the Minister for her intervention. I absolutely agree with the point that she made around victims. We should always come back to the victims, because young people are victims too. Child criminal exploitation: those young people are victims. We need to ensure that what we do is right —.”
“Multiple offences occurred almost immediately on that child moving to the children's home, and offending continued that was directly related to that context. I say that because it is so important to highlight the issue of reoffending. We have one of the lowest ages of criminal responsibility here in Northern Ireland, but in jurisdictions right across Europe there is evidence that supports the idea that those who are not criminalised reoffend less than those who are.”
“I have heard from many stakeholders and young people that the police were being called for issues that no parent would call the police for. I undertook to speak to young people and to people who work in the care homes, and I visited all those in my constituency of North Belfast — we have quite a number. There is no doubt that invaluable work is undertaken by many of the social workers and staff in those care homes, and the staff were the ones who, working with the police, took the initiative to make change — not the system or the Department of Health, but the staff themselves. <BR /> <BR />The Youth Justice Agency spoke recently about a particular case involving a child who had come from a children's home.”
“Statistics from the Youth Justice Agency for 2024-25 show that 60% of admissions to the Juvenile Justice Centre (JJC) were from kids in the care system. When some of those kids are able to be released into the community, the Department of Health does not step in. If the UUP is so concerned about this issue, maybe it will fix the system on its own side. Some 45% of those young people were subject to a care order, and almost 50% of the children who were brought into custody and under the care of police were in the care system. <BR /> <BR />Barnardo's has said that children living in care homes are more likely to be referred to the police for committing even a minor offence. I have seen that many times as a member of the Policing Board and as a member of the Health Committee.”
“I will touch on some of the organisations. I have spoken many times in the Chamber and used the words of young people who are either on the edge of care, in care or cared for by the state. Organisations such as Include Youth, the Voice of Young People in Care (VOYPIC) and the Youth Justice Agency work with those kids every single day — Include Youth in particular. Young people in care are disproportionately more likely to come into contact with the justice system than their non-care-experienced counterparts, yet nobody on the opposing side of the argument seems to put up any sort of fight for those kids. It is our experience that children and young people who have become involved in the criminal justice system have complex needs and experience multiple layers of trauma.”
“Instead, through the scrutiny work that we saw at the Committee, it seemed that the Department of Health used it as an opportunity to lump responsibility onto the Department of Justice rather than to make the changes that are needed.”
“One of the recommendations from Ray Jones' review was to have a scoping exercise for the Department of Health and Department of Justice to work together.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. I absolutely agree, but I do not think that the DUP and UUP remotely care or have any shame about what they are doing by going against policy and evidence. Furthermore, if the Ulster Unionist Party was so concerned about what the amendment would do, perhaps the Department of Health would have taken a little bit more interest in getting it right at this stage. It is not just about Justice. The opportunity for the Department of Health to take a lead has been lost. I ask that the UUP reflects on that and then comes to us and tells us what it is doing. What are you doing to promote the work of Ray Jones and to implement all the recommendations from his review? That is moving so slowly. <BR /> <BR />That brings me to my next point.”
“<BR /> <BR />Do not just tell it just to Members in the Chamber; tell it to the over 70 organisations that signed the coalition's pledge recognising the fact that 10 is too young. Tell it to the experts who work on the ground every single day with young people who actually come into contact with the justice system; the experts who put their heart and soul into the issue, who have the evidence and who will come to any MLA with their facts and knowledge and take them on. Do not just tell us in the Chamber; tell the people and organisations out there.”
“Say it to Action for Children in Northern Ireland; ADD-NI Children's Charity; African Caribbean Support Organisation; Amnesty International; Angel Eyes; Ardoyne Youth Enterprises; ASCERT; Barnardo's; Belfast YMCA; Black and Minority Ethnic Women's Network; Bolster Community; British Association of Social Workers; Committee on the Administration of Justice; Children in Northern Ireland; Children's Law Centre; Community Restorative Justice Ireland; East African Youth NI; Enagh Youth Forum; Extern; Flourish NI; Forthspring Inter Community Group; Footprints Women's Centre; Forward South Partnership; Holy Trinity Youth Centre; Horn of Africa People's Aid Northern Ireland; the Northern Ireland Human Rights Consortium; Kaizen Safeguarding; Include Youth; Informing Choices; Invisible Traffick; JJ Rice and Company Solicitors; Law Centre NI; the Law Society of Northern Ireland; Ledley Hall Boys and Girls Club Trust; Londonderry YMCA; MACS Supporting Children and Young People; Mindwise; Mornington Community Project; National Children's Bureau; Nexus NI; Northern Ireland Rural Women's Network; NIACRO; Northern Ireland Alternatives; Northern Ireland Commissioner for Children and Young People — I hope that Robbie Butler heard that one; Northern Ireland Youth Forum; North West Youth Services; NSPCC Northern Ireland; office of the mental health champion; Parents for Inclusive Education; Participation and the Practice of Rights; Royal College of Psychiatrists in NI; Reclaim the Agenda; Save the Children; South Tyrone Empowerment Programme; St Malachy's Youth Centre; St Peter's Immaculata Youth Centre; Star Neighbourhood Centre; Start360; the British Psychological Society; Bytes Project; Centre for Children's Rights at Queen's University; the Fostering Network; the Rainbow Project; the Secondary Students' Union of NI; Turnaround Project; VOYPIC — Voice of Young People in Care; University and College Union, Queen's University; West Belfast Partnership Board; Women's Aid Federation NI; Women's Centre Derry; Women's Platform; Women's Resource and Development Agency; Youth Action NI; and Youth Work Alliance.”
“<BR /> <BR />However, in speaking, as Alliance MLAs or in any other capacity, we are not alone. Many organisations in Northern Ireland have supported the call for recognition that "ten is too young". Instead of saying that to us, say it to them.”