Neil Gray
Scottish National Party · Scotland
“I welcome the fact that, through the police and the courts, our justice system is ensuring that justice is done. Victims show enormous bravery and trust in our legal system in reporting crime, and I want that to continue.”
“The Scottish Government-funded Caledonian system is a good example of a community-based programme that aims to address the behaviour of men who have been convicted of domestic abuse, alongside providing support to affected women and children.”
“On the day after my appointment as justice secretary, I visited HMP Edinburgh to see the level of pressure that the Scottish Prison Service is facing due to an increasing prison population. It is clear that staff want to focus on rehabilitation and reducing reoffending but that it is increasingly difficult for them to do so.”
“Scotland shows a clear and persistent trend of increasing the length of average custodial sentences, including a 37 per cent rise between 2014-15 and 2023-24.”
“However, although the operational impact that will result from the changes is expected to be minimal, I still advise the Parliament to give legislative consent to the relevant sections of the bill.”
“I note my thanks and appreciation to the Parliament for expediting consideration of this legislative consent motion. It is regrettable that we are having to expedite scrutiny on an LCM, which is due to the UK Government’s timetabling for the National Security (State Threats) Bill.”
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“Jackie Baillie: Last week, a footballer with a suspected dislocated knee, who had been playing in a championship match, was left waiting for an ambulance for 10 hours. A month earlier, another footballer waited for five hours after suffering a double leg break. At the time, the First Minister described that wait as an “error”, but now it looks as though it was not a one-off but a repeated problem. Those are just two examples of the thousands of Scots who are left waiting because the Scottish Ambulance Service is struggling to meet demand. Ambulances are stuck waiting at the front doors of hospitals for more than an hour to discharge patients, which means that they are unavailable to take other calls. What is the cabinet secretary doing about that particular problem to reduce long waits for ambulances?”
“It is not acceptable that some people are waiting for extended periods of time for an ambulance. Officials continue to hold regular strategic meetings with the Scottish Ambulance Service to help it to manage system pressures. The Scottish Ambulance Service is actively engaging with boards at chief executive and senior management level to ensure that they implement measures to reduce delays. It is important to consider that ambulance crews responded to 547 life-threatening incidents during the week of 20 October, achieving a median response time of eight minutes and 20 seconds. Our support for the Scottish Ambulance Service has led to a record increase in staffing, with new staff including newly qualified paramedics, patient transport service staff and control staff.”
“Motion agreed to, That the Parliament, for the purposes of any Act of the Scottish Parliament resulting from the Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill, agrees to any expenditure of a kind referred to in Rule 9.12.3A of the Parliament’s Standing Orders arising in consequence of the Act. The Presiding Officer: That concludes decision time. Cholangiocarcinoma”
“On a point of order, Presiding Officer. It is not clear whether my vote has registered. The Presiding Officer: We will check that for you, Mr Gray. I confirm that your vote was recorded. For Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Ross Greer] Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Against Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Ind) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Ind) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (Ind) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) [Proxy vote cast by Michael Marra] Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Reform) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Abstentions Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) The Presiding Officer: The result of the division on motion S6M-19456, in the name of Shona Robison, on a financial resolution for the Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill, is: For 70, Against 31, Abstentions 11.”
“We are clear that it is for Parliament to decide on the bill, so it is for members to decide whether to support the financial resolution today. Crucially, the vote on the financial resolution is not a vote on whether members agree or disagree with the figures in Mr McArthur’s financial memorandum. The Government has not put on record to the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee its position on the financial memorandum or on the policy underlying the bill. The vote is on whether the committee will be able to vote on cost-bearing amendments during its considerations at stage 2. The Presiding Officer: The question on the motion will be put at decision time. Decision Time 17:02”
“The Scottish Government lodged the financial resolution to enable the Parliament to take a decision on the amendments, as only a minister can lodge a motion for a financial resolution. Without a financial resolution, any amendment that has a financial impact can be debated, but, depending on the degree of the financial impact, it may automatically fall as it cannot be voted on. Jeremy Balfour: What costing has the Scottish Government given to the amendments should they pass at stage 2? Where does the cabinet secretary believe that that money would come from? From which budget would he take the money to pay for such costs? Neil Gray: Those are matters for the Parliament to determine. This is a member’s bill that has a free vote, and the Government is neutral on it. I will come on to elements around the costings shortly.”
“Presiding Officer, first, I offer to you publicly an apology that I have already offered to you privately. I also offer it to the rest of the chamber. It is not a reason for missing the start of this item of business, but it is important that colleagues are aware that I was on a call with other United Kingdom ministerial colleagues— Welsh and Northern Irish ministers—and I was not aware that business was running ahead of schedule. The Scottish Government remains neutral on this bill. The Presiding Officer has made her determination that, due to the nature of certain amendments that have been lodged, a financial resolution is needed for Mr McArthur’s Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill in order for those cost-bearing amendments to be voted on.”
“As I have said when I have met and corresponded with Mr Bibby and Unison on the matter, NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde has been clear that the changes are about providing appropriate, high-quality, safe and sustainable services for older adults in Renfrewshire. Ward 36 has, for some time, been used for patients awaiting home care or a care-home placement who are otherwise medically fit for discharge. In line with national policy on shifting the balance of care and minimising delayed discharge, the health board has been directing those resources to support local hospital-at-home services. Creative Scotland (Funding Awards) 6.”
“In fact, I am told that Scottish Government money for winter pressures has been used to accommodate vulnerable adults in other parts of the hospital, while ward 36 admissions are limited. That is exactly what staff at the RAH warned would happen, and it is coming to pass, despite a petition with more than 7,000 signatures. First, the Scottish National Party Government came for the children’s ward at the RAH and closed it. Will it now let the ward for our older folk close too, and ignore the views of hard-working NHS staff and patients yet again? Neil Gray: I remain of the view that such changes should be carefully considered and decided locally in a way that is consistent with national policy while being meaningfully informed by the views of local stakeholders, including staff and patients.”
“Both ministers and Scottish Government officials regularly meet representatives of all national health service boards, including NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde, to discuss matters of importance to local people. My most recent engagement with the chief executive of NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde was on Tuesday at Bute house, when we discussed, among other things, the fact that Scotland has falling waiting times, reduced waiting lists and higher planned care activity. Neil Bibby: The Scottish Government is well aware of the concerns that Unison representatives and I have about the impact on vulnerable older adults of the looming closure of ward 36 at the Royal Alexandra hospital. With winter coming up, now is clearly not the time to be cutting beds.”
“Neil Gray: I had a productive meeting with the chair and the chief executive of NHS Grampian a couple of weeks ago, as well as visiting ARI’s emergency department and other parts of the hospital. I believe that they are bringing forward measures that will help to improve resilience and performance, as well as the financial picture. However, I stress that the work that has been done through the assurance board, which has been delivered as a result of NHS Grampian’s escalation, is, first and foremost, about improving performance and then the financial picture. We have put more money into NHS Grampian to assist with its unscheduled care pathway and emergency pathways, and I expect that to bear fruit in the coming period.”
“Alexander Burnett: NHS Grampian will be nearly £50 million over budget by the end of the financial year, and the Scottish Government has said that it will be allowed to go only £45 million over. KPMG has said that increases in staffing levels do not align with a decrease in the total number of beds. As we head into winter, there will be increased pressures on Aberdeen royal infirmary at a time when services are already stretched. NHS Grampian still has the lowest bed base in Scotland per head of population, and ambulance stacking is a major issue. There are no beds and no money. Does the cabinet secretary have any solution for my constituents and NHS Grampian as we enter winter?”
“The Scottish Government continues to engage with NHS boards regarding winter resilience planning. Boards have been asked to provide assurance that robust plans are in place to manage system pressures. Those discussions focus on ensuring safe, effective services and maintaining system resilience during periods of pressure. The forthcoming national planning priorities and principles will set out expectations and provide a consistent national approach, and boards are expected to align their local plans accordingly. That process supports co-ordinated planning across health and social care and ensures readiness to respond to increased demand over the winter period.”
“We must empower our services and our staff to make the necessary changes that we need to ensure the safest and highest-quality maternity services in Scotland. I know that members will support me in that vision, and I welcome the opportunity to answer any questions that members might have at this time. The Presiding Officer: The cabinet secretary will now take questions on the issues raised in his statement. I intend to allow around 20 minutes for questions, after which we will move on to the next item of business. I would be grateful if members who wish to put a question were to press their request-to-speak buttons.”
“It will report to me and will complement the existing audit and inspection system that is in place in Scotland. I want women’s voices and their experiences of maternity services, as well as the voices of front-line midwives, to be heard, and I will make sure that they are part of the task force and that we listen to them. Furthermore, I will meet Scotland’s new Patient Safety Commissioner in November, and I will take the opportunity to discuss maternity services with her then. Finally, members will be aware that I have also reached out to health spokespeople from across the chamber to invite them to meet me and the chief executive of NHS Lothian to discuss the findings of the HIS report in more detail. Fulfilling our commitment to continuous improvement across our NHS is vital.”
“Last month, I wrote to every health board chief executive in Scotland to make clear my expectation that all boards will work with Healthcare Improvement Scotland to improve the timeliness and quality of significant adverse event review investigations and reporting and to provide regular reporting to HIS that strengthens oversight and scrutiny of such reviews. To further strengthen our national oversight, I can announce today the establishment of a new Scottish maternity and neonatal task force. It will provide strategic, national leadership and will be chaired by the Minister for Public Health and Women’s Health. The group will include senior figures from across our health system, independent bodies and third sector and advocacy organisations.”
“Our Scottish patient safety programme’s perinatal programme, which has been operating for more than 10 years, has also delivered a range of improvements in maternity services, such as safety huddles, perinatal care bundles and stillbirth care bundles. The programme will also be used to mobilise improvements that emerge from maternity inspections. On adverse events, when things go wrong, we expect boards to investigate fully. They must be open and honest with families about what happened, and make sure that lessons are learned to improve care.”
“NHS Tayside has already delivered the vast majority of its improvement actions following its inspection, with the remainder due to be completed by the end of the year. That is the sort of positive improvement that we want to see happening everywhere. As we get further into the inspection schedule, we are seeing themes emerge, which means that we can now focus on actions to improve those areas. We have commissioned HIS to develop a set of detailed maternity standards that will describe the level of service that we expect to be delivered in every maternity unit, and those standards will inform future inspections.”
“Although the Healthcare Improvement Scotland inspection reports will, in some cases, make for difficult reading for Government and health boards, I fully back the programme, which is working exactly as intended. This intelligence- led, independent inspection programme for acute maternity services allows us to take a real-time and local approach, ensuring that lessons are learned quickly, that improvements are made without delay and that good practice is shared widely. The inspections are giving us vital insight into what is working in our maternity hospitals and what needs to change. The process is holding services to account. The NHS Tayside and NHS Lothian reports demonstrate that. Local improvement action plans are already delivering change on the ground.”
“In escalating to stage 3, I expect to see evidence of improvement before the end of the year, particularly in relation to staff recruitment, training and development and the handling of adverse events. I will meet the chief executive of NHS Lothian again before the end of November to discuss progress on improvements. Looking at the wider context, I have been asked to consider whether we should initiate a review of maternity and neonatal services. Our utmost priority will always be the safety and wellbeing of mothers and their babies, and our staff must always be a priority for our NHS. In Scotland, we are working towards our shared vision of continuous improvement in maternity services.”
“I have also been assured that necessary staffing changes have been made and that leadership has been bolstered, for example by the appointment of a dedicated associate medical director for women’s services, and a range of cultural improvement initiatives, including the development of a culture charter. However, I still have significant concerns about the pace and momentum of change, and I am clear that we must see urgent improvements. That is why the Scottish Government has taken the decision to escalate NHS Lothian maternity services to level 3 of the NHS support and intervention framework. That intervention will provide significantly enhanced support and scrutiny of the improvement activity that NHS Lothian has outlined in its action plan.”
“It illustrates the dedication, hard work, and compassionate care that are provided by staff working in very challenging circumstances. I thank the staff at Edinburgh royal infirmary for their commitment and tireless efforts to support mothers and babies, often in difficult circumstances. In December, I directed the chief medical officer and chief nursing officer to work directly with NHS Lothian on the issues that I became aware of at that time. HIS undertook an unannounced visit in March and an inspection visit in June. The board has since made some improvements, in particular to maternity triage, and NHS Lothian has told me about its £1.5 million investment in additional staff, which it says has recruited 70 new midwives into the service, 30 of whom are already in place.”
“Every member of staff deserves to feel valued, respected, and supported at work, and their wellbeing should never be compromised. We will not tolerate those issues in our NHS. I appreciate the bravery of the nurses who spoke out both in the BBC’s “Disclosure” programme and to HIS. That is how change and improvement happen. On Monday night, I met NHS Lothian’s chief executive to discuss those issues and the wider concerns around patient safety oversight, leadership, staff wellbeing and delays in care. We are taking these concerns extremely seriously and I expect NHS Lothian to act immediately to implement all 26 requirements from the HIS report. I also recognise that the report highlights some positive points, including respectful and responsive care, good teamwork and improvements in maternity triage.”
“I am deeply disappointed and concerned by the findings in the latest report, particularly those relating to the experiences of women giving birth. I reassure Parliament that I have sought and received direct assurances from NHS Lothian’s chief executive that the health board is providing a package of support to women and families who use its maternity services, including a helpline, which will be available from today. The report highlights a number of concerning findings, specifically related to oversight of patient safety; staffing levels leading to delays in care; staff feeling overwhelmed, unsupported and not listened to; gaps in incident reporting; and poor communication with women. I am also greatly concerned about the findings relating to poor culture.”
“The second, into the Royal infirmary of Edinburgh, was published today. Although I know maternity and neonatal services are safe and the vast majority of women and their families have good experiences, the work done by HIS will help to ensure that we address issues such as those that have been found in Lothian. It is also important that expectant parents have accurate information available to them. Members will be aware of some misinformation circulating both in the media and on social media in recent weeks regarding Scotland’s neonatal services model. To be clear, no neonatal units are closing. We are consolidating care for the smallest and sickest babies in three specialist units so that they have the best chance of survival. Pregnant women can access accurate information and advice on services available to them via NHS Inform.”
“First, in the past 20 years, Scotland has made significant progress in reducing the risks associated with childbirth. Infant mortality has significantly reduced and, in 2024, stillbirth reduced to its lowest level. Although neonatal deaths have also reduced, we commissioned a review of neonatal mortality to understand what more needs to be done to reduce it further. The review was chaired by Dr Helen Mactier and published its findings last year, which led Healthcare Improvement Scotland to announce the commencement of its “safe delivery of care” inspections into acute maternity units across Scotland. The Scottish Government fully supported and backed that decision. Those inspections started earlier this year. The first report, into NHS Tayside’s Ninewells maternity unit, was published in May.”
“I thank our hard-working midwives, nurses, doctors, clinicians and the wider national health service support staff who dedicate their lives to maternity care and who perform such an important role in our NHS. They care for families during the most exciting and, indeed, the most anxious times in their lives, witnessing the miracle of birth every day. I also recognise that there are deeply challenging times when something does not go to plan. Our NHS maternity staff are there to offer families compassionate and supportive care. I know that many other members across the chamber will have deep personal gratitude for the support that maternity care staff have provided to their families. Before I turn to the substantive content of the HIS report, I want to provide members, and the public, with some important points of assurance.”
“Indeed, at that time I also very nearly lost my wife due to inaccurate assessments of ectopic pregnancy symptoms, which is an experience that stays with me every day. Our family’s experience differs from those of the families featured in the “Disclosure” programme and the HIS review, but I can absolutely understand the pain, grief and trauma that they went through. That makes me even more grateful to the families who have come forward. I share their personal determination to ensure that urgent improvements are made. I acknowledge the commitment of our staff in maternity services across Scotland who continue to provide kind and caring support to families.”
“I found it incredibly difficult to read and listen to the experiences of people who were excited to be extending their families but are instead mourning the loss of their loved ones. I take this opportunity to extend my deepest condolences to Lori Quate—the husband of Jacqui Hunter and father of their baby Olivia—and to the families of baby Freya Murphy and baby Mason Scott McLean, who so bravely shared their stories for last night’s BBC “Disclosure” programme. I also wish to convey my deepest condolences to families who have lost cherished loved ones while in the care of NHS Lothian maternity services. This is an incredibly sensitive and emotive issue, and it is one whose effects will be felt across the chamber. I have not spoken about it before, but my family knows personally what it is like to suffer pregnancy loss.”
“I am grateful to the Presiding Officer for the opportunity to make this statement. Members will be aware of Healthcare Improvement Scotland’s report into acute maternity services at the Royal infirmary of Edinburgh in NHS Lothian, which was published this morning, as well as the BBC’s “Disclosure” programme that aired last night. I know that people will be concerned, but from the outset I reassure every pregnant woman and their family, in the strongest possible terms, that our maternity and neonatal services in Scotland are safe. Our hospitals are the safest possible places for women to give birth, and they ensure that mothers have access to the best possible care. Any death or injury in maternity and neonatal services is a tragedy for a family.”
“To move amendment 132 now, on the basis that the registrar is still trying to comply with the requirement to register all land at ownership, would be, frankly, unreasonable. I cannot therefore support the amendment. Turning to amendments 263 and 133, Rhoda Grant will know that I am a great fan of crofting, but it is with such sadness that I have to say that the Government has failed to carry out crofting reform, despite what it said that it would do in 2016. The draft legislation that it has now put before the Parliament is, at best, fiddling round the edges. 16:15”
“In previous comments, the cabinet secretary has alluded to the fact that land management plans are intended to be high level and will not put an undue burden on landowners. My amendments seek to ground those reassurances in legislation— I am sure that she will be delighted to support that. On the point that Rhoda Grant made about amendment 118, I encourage her to look on the bright side of life and not always on the negative side, which is what she suggests when she says that it would all be about giving landowners loopholes in land management plans. Turning to amendment 132, in the name of Ariane Burgess, I have no issues with declaring publicly who owns what. In fact, my party and I recognise and support that approach. However, what is being proposed must be proportionate and reasonable.”
“Michael Matheson’s amendment 269 would oblige Scottish ministers to issue guidance on the obligations imposed by regulations made under section 44A. Again, that improves the bill. Edward Mountain: My amendments in the group are to do with proportionality and community engagement. Amendment 16 would provide that ministers must ensure that community engagement obligations are proportionate to the size of the landholding, the number of communities that are involved and the size of those communities. That is based on evidence that we heard at stage 2. Amendment 118 would define proportionality in relation to the resources that are available to the owner, the size of the holding and the number and size of communities in the vicinity of the holding.”
“Edward Mountain’s amendments 16 and 118 are similar. They look to ensure that regulation is proportionate to the size of the landholding. We are minded to support amendment 16, but we cannot support amendment 118, because it refers to the resources that are available to the landowner. We all know that land ownership is often used to bury resources to avoid taxation. It would therefore be easy for an unscrupulous landowner to beg a lack of resources in order to take themselves out of the bill’s obligations. Ariane Burgess’s amendment 132 would ensure that regulations made under section 44A must require the land that is referred to have its ownership registered. We often hear of people not being able to contact the owner of the land that they lease, so it is only right that ownership of that land is transparent and registered.”
“Rhoda Grant: Amendment 263 would enable a community body to approach a landowner and ask that they consider creating new crofts. The bill already allows for a community body to request that land be leased, but in the crofting counties, the creation of new crofts is much more in keeping with local land management. Although crofting is facing huge challenges, in the past it has helped to retain populations in rural areas and to give security of tenure. The very nature of crofting is environmentally friendly and community focused. Amendment 133 is similar, but given that the Scottish Government helped to draft amendment 263—I am grateful for that—I will not move amendment 133 in the hope that the Scottish Government’s involvement with amendment 263 indicates that it will support it. Amendment 117 is consequential to amendment 263.”
“That would add another trigger point for an entry in the land register in addition to the point of sale, and it would bring greater transparency over the ownership of some of Scotland’s largest landholdings. Having that information centralised and accessible, ideally in a cadastral system, would be an important building block for the introduction of some form of land value tax in future years. I turn briefly to other amendments in the group. The Greens will support Rhoda Grant’s amendment 263, which would support the creation of new crofts. We will also support Michael Matheson’s amendment 269, which clarifies community engagement obligations on large landowners. I also wish to express briefly my concerns that Edward Mountain’s amendments in the group could weaken the obligations in part 1. I move amendment 116.”
“Together, my amendments 116 and 132 would add a requirement that owners who have to prepare a land management plan must also ensure that details of their ownership are entered on the land register. Recently, I met Registers of Scotland staff, who explained their process of transferring ownership records detailed on the old sasines register over to the new land register. It is a slow process that will take many years to complete—if, indeed, it can be completed at all. My amendments in the group are a small measure towards speeding up that process. Simply put, any landowner who was required to produce a land management plan would also have to enter information about their landholding into the land register. Surely they would have to map their land anyway, as part of making their land management plans.”
“Amendment 233 disagreed to. The Deputy Presiding Officer: Group 3 is on the power to impose obligations in relation to large landholdings. Amendment 116, in the name of Ariane Burgess, is grouped with amendments 117, 16, 118, 132, 263, 133 and 269. Ariane Burgess: Scotland’s land register is a publicly searchable database of land and properties that have been bought and sold. It shows the price paid for and the boundaries of the landholding. Indeed, those who have bought and sold their own homes will be familiar with the process. However, many of Scotland’s largest estates have not been entered on the land register, either because the land simply has not been sold or because it has not been entered on the register voluntarily.”
“For Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Ind) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Ross Greer] Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) [Proxy vote cast by Michael Marra] Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Against Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Ind) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (Ind) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Fulton MacGregor] Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 23, Against 88, Abstentions 0.”
“Amendment 115 disagreed to. Amendment 233 moved—[Rhoda Grant]. The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, that amendment 233 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a division.”
“On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I wish to clarify whether my no vote was registered. The Deputy Presiding Officer: Your vote was recorded. For Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Ind) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Ross Greer] Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) [Proxy vote cast by Michael Marra] Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Against Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (Ind) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Fulton MacGregor] Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 23, Against 89, Abstentions 0.”
“Yes, I understand it, because I have met local residents in Lochgelly and Kincardine at the request of Ms Ewing and Ms Somerville, the constituency representatives, and the residents highlighted those concerns. We have a capital funding pause, except in the areas that have been set out in the budget, because of the pressure on our capital budget due to decisions that have been taken that are outwith our control and because of inflation in the construction sector. We are in touch with NHS Fife and all other health boards in order to get their capital priorities. We hope that the United Kingdom budget will provide greater capital investment to allow us to do more in the primary care system.”
“In 2021, the then health secretary, in answer to a question from Annabelle Ewing about Lochgelly, told the Parliament: “I give the member an absolute confirmation that, when we have that outline business case, the funding will be found.”—[Official Report, 28 October 2021; c 9.] In early 2023, NHS Fife stated that the current Lochgelly and Kincardine health centres “are older facilities which no longer meet the needs of the local populations.” Does the cabinet secretary understand the level of anger and despair in communities in Lochgelly and Kincardine, which have been promised time and again that they would have replacements for unfit-for-purpose health centres? Neil Gray: I thank Alex Rowley for setting that out.”
“NHS boards are responsible for ensuring the provision of primary medical services in their area. My officials are working with all health boards to develop a whole-system NHS infrastructure investment plan. A key part of that plan will be the development of an investment strategy for primary care, which will consider both priorities and delivery models. Spending on primary medical services by the Scottish Government has increased over the past decade, both in cash and in real terms. In cash terms, spending has gone from £763 million in 2013-14 to almost £1.1 billion in 2023-24. Alex Rowley: According to NHS Fife, “The Initial Agreement Document (IAD) was approved by Scottish Government in January 2020”.”
“We can do that by increasing the sensitivity of the test, and we should—to my mind—be pleased to know that there is no reason why we cannot do that if we train more colonoscopy teams across Scotland. I say to the minister that, if we cannot do that, we should rely on the private sector to deliver those colonoscopies. The benefits of that approach are that we will be saving Scotland money and saving lives—what is not to like about that? Let us be honest: if we make the test more sensitive, Scotland will be leading the way again, which is where we should be. 19:09”
“I have discussed that with the Minister for Public Health and Women’s Health, who I know takes a personal interest in the subject—she does not have much of an option, because I pester her about it the whole time. The cost of increasing the sensitivity of the test is that we will need more colonoscopies. I have done some research across Scotland, and I know that the average cost of doing a colonoscopy in the NHS is about £18,000. If you go private, you can get it done very quickly, and the cost is about £3,000. It does not take a lot of maths for me to be able to highlight the situation to members: if the costs for treatment are going to be close to £60,000, how many colonoscopies would we need per patient to make it justifiable? My call to the Government, and to everyone, is that we need to catch bowel cancer early.”
“Let us be clear, too, that there is a huge cost in treatment to the national health service. The “Cost of cancer in the UK” report has shown that, if someone’s cancer is caught at stage 1 or stage 2, the cost is about £33,000 in the first year; if it is caught at stage 3 or 4, the cost goes up to about £46,000. That is just for the treatment—it does not include surgery. If someone goes for surgery, the costs can be huge. I know that personally, because I saw the bills related to my treatment. The total for surgery is probably the two figures that I have quoted, combined together, on top of the original costs. There is a huge cost to not catching bowel cancer early. So, how do we catch it early? As I explained, in my opinion, increasing the sensitivity of the FIT would be the easiest way of doing that.”
“If you catch it earlier, it means not only that there is a greater chance of survival but that less treatment is needed, at less cost. No one really talks about treatment for bowel cancer, but it can be quite invasive. For me, it was radiotherapy, then chemotherapy and eventually surgery. The chemotherapy is a hard course to go through. It involves three hours of sitting in a room with other cancer sufferers, on a drip, getting your chemotherapy, and then two weeks of pills—12 pills, morning and night—and feeling pretty sick on the back of it. You are not able to do little things, such as getting milk out of the fridge, because you cannot touch anything cold. You are made to feel pretty tired by the treatment, and pretty isolated. My view is that there is every reason why we should ensure that people can avoid the treatment.”
“We have led the way for a long time, but I have to say that I am now disappointed to find that Wales has caught up—as a Scotsman, I never like to see Wales too close to us when it comes to these things. Wales has equalled that target, so I believe that it is time to move on, and the following figures should help the Government in that decision. First, we know that, if you catch bowel cancer early, at stage 1, there is a 90 per cent chance of survival after five years. If you catch it at stage 2, there is an 85 per cent chance of survival. However, if you catch it at stage 3, that drops to 65 per cent, and, at stage 4, it is 40 per cent. That indicates that the earlier you can catch it, the better it will be.”
“Let me say how sorry I am that I cannot be in the chamber to listen to Mr Mountain’s speech in person. I also want to say how grateful I am that he continues his incredible work in raising awareness of bowel cancer and destigmatising and demystifying the issues before us this evening. I look forward to meeting him following his interventions at First Minister’s question time and to hearing the debate this evening. Edward Mountain: I thank the cabinet secretary for that intervention. As I was saying, Scotland is leading in bowel cancer screening. The faecal immunochemical tests that NHS Scotland sends out have a sensitivity level of 80 micrograms of blood per gram of poo.”