Kaukab Stewart
Scottish National Party · Scotland
“All forms of violence against women are abhorrent, and those who perpetrate violence and abuse— the majority of whom are men—must change their actions and behaviours.”
“Will the Government stop blaming teenage boys for misogyny and finally connect the dots upstream by strengthening sex-based protections and confronting systemic misogyny through urgent legislative and societal action to reverse this crisis?”
“Ash Regan: Twelve years on from the equally safe strategy, women and girls in Scotland are less safe than ever. Male violence is escalating in homes, on our streets and online.”
“I have also met Jess Phillips MP, so that we can take a collaborative approach to tackling technology-facilitated abuse of women. This Government is absolutely taking action to address those abhorrent abuses of women and girls. The Presiding Officer: That concludes general question time.”
“Bill Kidd: The support and dedicated services that are available to help people with their struggles with the cost of living are a lifeline to many in my constituency and across Scotland, given the continuing pressures on households and in the light of rising petrol, energy and food prices, which are linked to global instability.”
“We recognise the pressure on household budgets, which is why we are working with key partners, including Glasgow City Council, to tackle child poverty through transforming the way in which public services are delivered.”
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“In 2024, the UK had around 948,000 long-term immigrants, primarily through work and study visas. Of those, 108,138 claimed asylum, of which 35,000 arrived via small boats. That is just 3.7 per cent of the total number of long-term immigrants in 2024. It is important to remember those numbers. We recognise that the current UK Government inherited a broken asylum system, a backlog in decision making and large asylum accommodation estates. People are stuck in that system, which reduces their ability to integrate and to be able to work. The bottleneck in decision making is the direct result of the UK Illegal Migration Act 2023, which is a totally unworkable and unconscionable piece of legislation. It was never supposed to work; it was an attempt to control the headlines in an election year.”
“The days of ethnic minorities with strange names having to change their name in order to anglicise and disguise themselves, and of young Asian and black girls having to bleach their skin in order to fit in with white communities, should be condemned and put into the history books. I reject the term “assimilation”. We also heard about the willingness to tear up the ECHR in order to demonise further an already vulnerable group. It seems that there are members among us who would willingly throw away the rights of every citizen and person in this country in order to demonise further people who are already vulnerable. The ECHR is a fundamental principle of this Scottish Parliament, and any MSP who is worth their salt will resist derogation from it in the strongest possible terms. I will also look at the facts.”
“It is only once the UK Government has made a determination to grant asylum that newly recognised refugees have the right to access housing, work and other publicly funded support. As the cabinet secretary made clear, using the term “illegal migrant” is not only divisive and dehumanising but inaccurate. I will now turn to some of the contributions and reflect on as many of them as I can. First of all, I emphatically reject the use of the term “assimilation”. That has connotations of people having either to mask themselves or to mimic in order to fit in, instead of enabling cohesive multicultural communities.”
“As we have heard in the debate, language is incredibly important. We need to ensure that we are talking about the same issues and that we are using the correct terminology. Not doing so perpetuates the misinformation that some seek to weaponise against individuals and communities. Russell Findlay: Will the minister take an intervention? Kaukab Stewart: I will press on. I will take the intervention later if I have time. I would like to remind members of a few facts. People who are seeking asylum cannot access local authority housing. The asylum system and its operation are the responsibility of the UK Government. The UK has international legal obligations to recognise refugees who are in the UK, and the purpose of the UK asylum system is to determine whether someone who is in the UK needs protection in line with those obligations.”
“We are currently exploring next steps in the Scottish context, including scoping further research into the role of parental leave uptake on decisions to have children. From our 2022 attitudes to family formation research, we know that childcare is an important factor in people’s decision to have children. Through our addressing depopulation action plan, we are funding local authorities in depopulating areas in the Western Isles and in the north-west of the Highlands to scope and deliver, where possible, childcare interventions that support families to live and work there. Social Security Scotland (Veterans Support) 3.”
“Does the minister agree that that is an existential concern for Scotland? What policies does the Scottish Government believe can make a real difference in arresting and reversing that depressing trend? Please note that I am asking not about immigration but about the birth rate. Kaukab Stewart: I share the member’s interesting views on our changing demographics. Falling birth rates are a trend across many high- income countries, with, as the member said, significant implications for our economies, communities and public services. We are committed to learning from other countries. In December 2024, the ministerial population task force considered potential international lessons from family-friendly policy interventions.”
“Our population strategy sets out our ambition that Scotland is the ideal place to raise a family, where people are enabled to have the number of children that they wish to have. It is not for Government to dictate or influence whether people should have children, which is, rightly, a matter for individuals. The ministerial population task force continues to consider fertility trends, and we are engaging with the United Kingdom Government on its parental leave and pay review to ensure that any new provision supports working families in Scotland. Kenneth Gibson: Last year, Scotland’s total fertility rate fell to 1.25, which is the lowest since records began in 1855. Given that a population needs a fertility rate of 2.1 just to remain constant, that demographic decline will have profound consequences for us all.”
“I am determined to work with our partners to build on and support the excellent work of local community organisations and projects that bring people together to build the strong, resilient and connected communities across Scotland that we all want to see. The Deputy Presiding Officer: The minister will now take questions on the issues raised in her statement. I plan to allow around 20 minutes for that, after which we will need to move on to the next item of business. I would be grateful if members who wish to ask a question and who have not already done so would press their request-to-speak buttons.”
“My intention is to support work that builds connections across different communities and fosters greater understanding, meaningful dialogue and intercultural activities, in order to enhance mutual respect and understanding at a local level. The aim is to strengthen our social fabric and contribute to common goals such as promoting collective wellbeing, bridging divides and countering misinformation. Focusing on what unites us, this funding seeks to benefit all communities and to help to heal divisions through inclusive, collaborative action. We cannot, and will not, allow division and hostility to define us.”
“As a result, we are working closely with partners to refocus our efforts towards building meaningful links among communities, broadening our approach to cohesion and ensuring that it reflects the diverse realities and strengths of Scotland today. That is why, today, I am pleased to announce further funding of £300,000 this year, in addition to the £7.9 million for 2025-26 that my portfolio already provides, to support organisations that work across Scotland to support community cohesion. That additional funding is intended to support organisations, activities and initiatives that bring local communities together to address shared issues and counter division.”
“We will continue to support and fund organisations that are embedded in communities across Scotland—organisations that know their people, understand their challenges and work every day, throughout the length and breadth of Scotland, to respond, adapt and engage in ways that bring people together and challenge exclusion. We recognise, too, that challenges remain. We are committed to addressing the shared difficulties that many people feel, and to fostering a sense of collective belonging and purpose. In line with the themes that were discussed at the First Minister’s gathering in April, we have been actively listening to and engaging with communities.”
“In my discussions with the team at Maryhill, it was clear to me that their staff and the people whom they serve are being directly impacted by the climate of fear that has been building. That is simply unacceptable, and it goes against everything that Scotland stands for. Strong communities do not happen by accident, and we must never take them for granted. There is no room for complacency. All that work shows the impact of community-led support that brings people together across cultures, faiths and experiences. Those are spaces in which our shared values of compassion, solidarity and mutual respect thrive. Such success stories rarely make the headlines, but they are the stories that shape a better future. Building and nurturing cohesion requires investment in services, in support and—most of all—in people.”
“On Tuesday morning this week, I visited the Maryhill Integration Network, which supports integration in communities, providing space for people to come together through music, art, gardening and language classes. That organisation and many others like it all do vital work in their local areas to support integration, build community support and bring people together through community projects. They engage locally, to help to share factual information and build awareness and understanding through training sessions. They also focus on new challenges that have developed in recent years, whereby misinformation that is shared online has significant impacts on individuals and communities.”
“We must never allow fear to erode our humanity, nor Scotland’s reputation as a proud home to many different communities living side by side. My commitment to that is not just rhetorical—it is practical, visible and on-going. I am fortunate to have seen at first hand the good and collaborative efforts of communities across our country to ensure that Scotland is a place where everyone belongs and feels safe. Just recently, I was honoured to attend the pitch-to-plate multicultural meal at Hibernian Football Club—an example of how faith and sport can come together to build community. That monthly event, which is led by the Scottish Ahlul Bayt Society and the Hibernian Community Foundation, brings together new Scots, refugees and those who are facing hardship, to share a warm meal and meaningful connection.”
“In October 2024, that work led to Perth and Kinross Council being awarded council of sanctuary status, as one of the many places in Scotland that are recognised for their efforts in welcoming people who seek sanctuary here. Our shared aim is clear: to ensure that all new Scots have the opportunity to rebuild their lives here and to feel part of our nation. That approach not only supports individuals but strengthens the communities of which they become part. The Scottish Government remains dedicated to a path that is rooted in the power of community and committed to dignity and inclusion. In tough times, we should not turn against our neighbours—we should turn towards one other. It is not acceptable to vilify and exclude communities.”
“The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees commended that approach when he visited Scotland earlier this year. Last month, I experienced the excellent community development and refugee integration work that is taking place across Perth and Kinross, which brings communities together through community cafes and shared passions such as football. I also learned of the support that Perth and Kinross Council gives to young people who are seeking asylum, by helping them to understand and access the support to which they are entitled, delivering local orientation and English classes and supporting them to integrate into the local community through volunteering opportunities and sport.”
“Kaukab Stewart: The Scottish Government has made detailed, constructive proposals to the United Kingdom Government on safe and accessible visa routes. Unfortunately, the response so far has been disappointing. Once again, the immigration system that we are tied to does not reflect Scotland’s interests or values. However, the UK Government’s approach has not deterred us from doing what we can within our powers. We have established Scotland’s migration service to support employers, investors and individuals to navigate the UK immigration system. Our new Scots strategy sets out a clear and integrated approach to supporting refugees and people seeking asylum—from day 1, on their arrival. It is a model of partnership that is embedded at the local level across national and local government, third sector organisations and communities.”
“That is why we have consistently called for the creation of regular, safe and accessible visa routes that reflect Scotland’s needs and that allow people to come here not only to work but to settle and to contribute to our society. We completely reject the disgraceful comments made earlier this week by Nigel Farage, who set out desperate and despicable plans for mass deportations, and callously and blatantly blamed migrants for the economic state of broken Britain. Farage’s plans threaten to collapse our national health service and crash our economy all over again. We do not accept that and, to be clear, he should be ashamed of such blatant demonisation. [Interruption.] The Deputy Presiding Officer: There should be no interruptions or interventions.”
“The Government has always taken seriously its responsibility to promote safe and connected communities, and we will continue to work together with partners and local authorities to ensure that all communities have the means to contribute, to feel safe and to have a sense of belonging in Scotland. Looking out for one another is not just a policy goal. It is not optional or idealistic; it is part of the fabric of our lives in this country. We value diversity not just as a principle but as a strength that enriches our society and our economy. As a country, Scotland has real and pressing demographic needs. We need inward migration to support our communities, our public services and our economy.”
“If targeting of minorities goes unchallenged, we undermine not only our values but Scotland’s hard-earned international reputation as a welcoming country—one that is known for understanding the desperate situation of those fleeing conflict and persecution and for responding to them with compassion and kindness. Over the past fortnight, we have welcomed six families from Gaza who have arrived with children who are in need of urgent medical care. That is part of the First Minister’s commitment that Scotland will treat up to 20 child patients from Gaza.”
“At a time when hostile rhetoric is creating real fear and uncertainty, it is vital that we recognise its impact on communities across the country. When people feel excluded or marginalised, communities suffer. Tensions rise, trust erodes, and we begin to see the normalisation of resentment and division and the entrenchment of othering, in which communities are excluded and alienated. The effects are direct and lasting. They echo through families, schools, workplaces and the everyday interactions that define our shared lives. The shared bonds that hold communities together begin to fray.”
“They were not designed to—and were not able to—operate until the new rent controls become operational under part 1 of the bill.”
“I recognise the good intent behind the amendments, which were also lodged at stage 2, and the desire to protect tenants from unreasonable in-tenancy rent increases. However, I cannot support the provisions for a number of reasons. I must note that the circumstances that necessitated the introduction of the temporary changes no longer apply. The judicial review of the measures under the Cost of Living (Tenant Protection) (Scotland) Act 2022 emphasised their temporary nature as being a key factor in their proportionality. The temporary modifications to the rent adjudication process, which the measures in question replicate, were developed specifically to support the transition away from the emergency rent cap. They were in place to prevent a return to market rents in a single step where a tenant sought a review.”
“Requiring the reduction of rent would be a significant interference in the property rights of landlords and would be very difficult to justify and enforce. Maggie Chapman spoke about the Government’s willingness to be challenged and to end up in court, but taking that approach would not serve us in having rent controls operating in the country. The amendments would remove the clarity of the rent cap and would reintroduce the uncertainty that stakeholders called on us to address. For those reasons, I cannot support amendments 1, 2 and 22. 18:45 Amendments 6, 118, 23 and 24 would reintroduce the temporary modifications to rent adjudication that are set out in the Rent Adjudication (Temporary Modifications) (Scotland) Regulations 2024, which expired at the end of March.”
“We must be clear-eyed about what the Government is pursuing. Amendments 1, 2 and 22 would provide for the introduction of special rent control areas. As has been set out, in those areas, a rent cap could be set for up to one year that would be below the level of the rent cap of the consumer prices index plus 1 percentage point, up to a maximum of 6 per cent, as agreed by the committee at stage 2. The amendments, which were also lodged at stage 2, would enable the rent cap in a special rent control area to be set at 0 per cent or a negative figure. That would require landlords to reduce rents in some circumstances. The policy intention is not that rent controls should act to require landlords to reduce rents; rather, it is that the system will act to stabilise rents in areas where market rents have been increasing particularly steeply.”
“For the reasons that I have outlined, the Scottish Conservatives will not support any amendments that would cause further harm to our housing sector. Màiri McAllan: The issues that Maggie Chapman has raised in this group were debated at stage 2 and have been the subject of much wider discussion. I will start by reflecting on some of her comments. From the outset, I say that the Government is absolutely determined to tackle what we entirely acknowledge have been unacceptably high and increasing rents. That is exactly why we are bringing in rent controls. We are also determined to tackle the housing emergency. That is exactly why, on 2 September, we brought forward a housing emergency action plan that is backed by nearly £5 billion and have launched a major house-building project over the next four years.”
“The Scottish Association of Landlords has estimated that, since 2016, 35,591 landlords have exited the register, bringing numbers down to their lowest level in a decade. We need investment and we need landlords to stay in the market if we are to ensure that we have enough supply of homes to meet demand. That is why we need to be careful about the amendments that we introduce at stage 3. To create special rent controls will lead only to more landlords exiting the market. Introducing varying rent controls would not solve any of the issues that Maggie Chapman seeks to solve with her amendments. That would only create an uneven picture and deter developments from proceeding through future investment opportunities.”
“Meghan Gallacher: I will speak to Maggie Chapman’s amendments 1 and 2. The creation of a special rent control area where the permitted rate of increase would be even lower than that proposed elsewhere—potentially 0 per cent or less—would mean no increases or even a reduction in rent. The Scottish Greens have already made known their feelings. They do not believe that the scope of the rent controls goes far enough, which further highlights the fact that they do not understand the housing sector or the precarious situation that we find ourselves in with landlords leaving the market. The anti-landlord rhetoric from politicians is partially to blame for landlords leaving the sector.”
“It does not make sense for a Government that is committed to eradicating homelessness to allow years of a near free-for-all for landlords to hike rents beyond what some people will be able to afford. My understanding is that the Scottish Government has been advised that it would likely lose a legal challenge on the issue. Before now, the Scottish Government has not been backward about coming forward when it comes to going to court to defend policies. The Government stood up for the rights of our trans siblings to be known by their preferred gender, and it stood up for Scotland’s right to vote on its future as an independent country. I am asking the Government to do the same now: to stand up for renters and be prepared to defend their rights not to have exorbitant rent hikes before rent control areas come into force. I move amendment 1.”
“In the time since the controls expired—which was only in March this year—Living Rent has documented cases of renters facing huge rent hikes far beyond market rate, with some landlords proposing rent increases of more than 30 per cent, and some proposing hikes of up to 88 per cent. A Living Rent member in Lanarkshire faced a 55 per cent rent increase this summer, and one member in Glasgow was hit by a £200 increase—that is an increase of £2,400 over a year. How is an average renter expected to be able to cope with such ludicrous rent hikes? Allowing those controls to lapse does not make sense for a Government the official position of which is that it supports rent controls. It does not make sense for a Government that is seeking to reduce child poverty, when housing costs are one of the biggest contributors to that.”
“If we do not introduce such controls, we will essentially be endorsing the unacceptable increases that we have seen in recent years. Tighter controls require stronger safeguards, so I have already limited the lifetime of special rent control areas to one year. I hope that we can agree on the principle that tighter controls will be needed temporarily in some areas. Amendments 24 and 120 seek to reinstate the transitional provisions that offered some protection to tenants ahead of rent control areas coming into force. Those were meant to act as a bridge to the bill’s controls, and it makes no sense for them to have lapsed. The Scottish Government, which supports rent controls, is allowing rents to soar in the two years before the bill comes into force.”
“Maggie Chapman: Amendments 1, 2 and 22 seek to introduce special rent control areas, which would work in much the same way as rent control areas but would allow rents to increase by a lower amount than specified in the central formula, to be frozen or to be cut. That is absolutely crucial. Rents have increased by grotesque amounts in some areas of Scotland—in some cases, by more than 100 per cent since 2010—and the central formula would do nothing to address that. In Glasgow, Lothian and some other areas with recent large rent increases, there is a very strong case for applying short-term controls that would allow much tighter limits on rent increases than the current proposed limit of retail prices index plus 1 percentage point, up to 6 per cent.”
“Amendment 150 disagreed to. After section 18A Amendment 151 not moved. The Presiding Officer: Members will note that we will shortly reach the next time limit and there are two groups still to debate. I am minded to accept, under rule 9.8.5A, a motion without notice to propose that the time limit be extended by 30 minutes. I invite the Minister for Parliamentary Business and Veterans to move such a motion. Motion moved, That, under rule 9.8.5A, the second time limit be moved by up to 30 minutes.—[Graeme Dey] Motion agreed to. The Presiding Officer: Group 5 is on special and transitionary rent control provisions. Amendment 1, in the name of Maggie Chapman, is grouped with amendments 2, 6, 22, 118, 23, 24 and 120.”
“For Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Ross Greer] Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Against Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Ind) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Alba) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Reform) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Fulton MacGregor] Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) The Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 8, Against 101, Abstentions 0.”
“Amendment 30 disagreed to. Amendments 31 and 148 not moved. Section 17A—Information holder’s provision of false information Amendments 32 and 33 not moved. After section 17B Amendment 149 moved—[Emma Roddick]— and agreed to. After section 18 Amendment 150 moved—[Maggie Chapman]. The Presiding Officer: The question is, that amendment 150 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Presiding Officer: There will be a division.”
“For Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Ross Greer] Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Against Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Ind) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Alba) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Reform) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Fulton MacGregor] Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) The Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 24, Against 85, Abstentions 0.”
“Amendments 144 to 147 disagreed to. Amendment 30 moved—[Maggie Chapman]. The Presiding Officer: The question is, that amendment 30 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Presiding Officer: There will be a division.”
“On a point of order, Presiding Officer. My app would not connect. I would have voted no. The Presiding Officer: Thank you, Ms Stewart. We will ensure that that is recorded. For Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Ind) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Alba) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Reform) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Against Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Ross Greer] Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Fulton MacGregor] Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) The Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 43, Against 67, Abstentions 0.”
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“However, as time is now pressing, perhaps the minister would bring her remarks to a close, focusing on the issues in the motion. Kaukab Stewart: I will bring my remarks to a close. I hope that I have given reassurance that the Government absolutely accepts the Supreme Court judgment. I have given clear examples of the actions that we are taking. I point out that the EHRC has only recently—on 5 September— submitted to the UK Government its revised code of practice, which we have not yet seen. That is another sign that it is vital to take time to fully consider the impact of the judgment and its consequences—which is what we are doing. The Deputy Presiding Officer: That concludes the debate. Meeting closed at 18:18. This is the final edition of the Official Report for this meeting.”
“The achievements that that has led to include the appointment of Scotland’s first women’s health champion, Professor Anna Glasier. Rachael Hamilton: On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I cannot for the life of me believe that the minister is talking to the motion. It is very frustrating. We are trying to hold the Government to account on not delivering the Supreme Court decision, and the minister is talking about health plans and domestic violence. The Deputy Presiding Officer: I thank Ms Hamilton for her point of order. I have listened carefully to the minister’s response thus far. She has specifically addressed issues that are raised in the motion. In the past minute or so, she has been reflecting on wider actions that the Government is taking.”
“We make sure that we take trauma-informed approaches, especially for women who have experienced sexual violence, and we have changed the law so that victims of rape and sexual assault can get healthcare without first having to report the assault to the police—[Interruption.] Forgive me, but I will make progress. I am grateful for the leeway, Presiding Officer—I know that I have gone over my time. We have taken forward a great deal of work to ensure that those who work in the public sector are equipped with the resources and knowledge to confidently and sensitively work with those who are affected by violence against women and girls. I will briefly mention health. We published the first women’s health plan in the UK, and we are currently working on the second phase of that process.”
“I sincerely believe that the vast majority of people in Scotland want to live in a country that is respectful, compassionate and caring and that protects the rights of all. It is not a competition. Our work to support trans people in Scotland is absolutely not at the expense of our vital support for women and girls. Strategic work is taking place on that, informed by the First Minister’s National Advisory Council on Women and Girls and the voices and views of a diverse range of women and girls, including those on the empowering women panel. Violence against women and girls was mentioned. I highlight the equally safe strategy, which is world leading. Through it, we have strengthened the laws that enable us to respond robustly to perpetrators and protect women and girls—for instance, through the Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Act 2018.”
“As a Government, we are determined to deliver for women and girls and to address those inequalities where they arise. Jackie Baillie rose— Rachael Hamilton rose— Kaukab Stewart: Can I just make a little bit of progress? I realise that I am running out of time—I have taken interventions. That was an outline of some of the work that we are doing. I also want to re-emphasise that the on- going work on the implications of the Supreme Court judgment is not about pitting the rights of two groups of people against each other, but rather is about ensuring equality, dignity and the rights of all. I want to make it clear that trans men and women are valued in society. They exist— they always have done—and they must enjoy the same human rights as all in society, as well as protections under the Equality Act 2010.”
“The Deputy Presiding Officer: Always speak through the chair. Kaukab Stewart: We have, in fact, done that. I reminded myself of the fact that, in May, we published a note that was sent to all public bodies, and which made it very clear that public bodies should satisfy themselves that they are compliant with the law and that they are reviewing all the necessary guidance and policies. Other people also raised that point and implied that we had not offered that instruction, but we had. I take the opportunity to remind the Parliament that equality for women and girls is a priority for this Government. I have heard very powerful testimonies this afternoon about why that is so important. I also remind Parliament that it is at the heart of our vision for a fair and prosperous Scotland for everybody.”
“Through joint working with Police Scotland, we will publicly consult on the stop-and-search code of practice before the end of the year. The guidance on supporting transgender young people in schools is being reviewed, recognising that the EHRC is also reviewing the technical guidance for schools. As I said, our approach is focused on ensuring accuracy and clarity, and avoiding unnecessary complexity or confusion at a time of heightened public debate. Jackie Baillie: I referred to a report by the Ethical Standards Commissioner, who, I think we can agree, is not known for being outrageous. He says that policy is getting ahead of the law. You have a direct role in that. It does not require thinking through; it requires the Government to say to its public bodies, “Don’t get ahead of the law. Follow the law.” Why can you not do that?”
“Every key area of Government that is or may be affected by the judgment is carrying out those assessments. Rachael Hamilton: I am slightly confused. If the minister is getting the guidance out and is going to act on the decision made by the Supreme Court, why is the Scottish Government challenging For Women Scotland, in its challenge against the Government in relation to the decision? Kaukab Stewart: The Presiding Officer will be well aware that I will not comment on any live litigation cases. I will give some examples of the work that we have already done: we have updated the guidance on the Gender Representation on Public Boards (Scotland) Act 2018 and we have amended the recruitment process for appointments to public bodies subject to the 2018 act.”
“What timescale have civil servants given the minister for when that work will be completed? Kaukab Stewart: I cannot give a timescale for that. There are so many different areas that the judgment may or may not cover, and the work has to be done in a methodical way. I was going on to address the point that our approach is focused on co-ordinating Government action in the context of legal complexity, ensuring accuracy and clarity. I would also like to make it clear that the decision of the Supreme Court does not remove trans people’s protections from discrimination. That point was made explicitly by the Supreme Court in its judgment. We have been clear since the Supreme Court ruling that we accept that. We are taking forward the work that is necessary as a consequence of it.”
“I have listened very carefully to all the contributors in the debate. I will not be able to refer to everybody individually, but I will try to address as many of the points that were raised as I can. The Scottish Government has consistently made it clear that it accepts the Supreme Court ruling in For Women Scotland Ltd v the Scottish ministers in relation to the definition of the term “woman” in the Equality Act 2010. Since April, we have been taking forward the detailed work that is necessary as a consequence of the ruling. That work is on-going, and it is being co-ordinated by a senior-level, cross-Government working group that is convened by the permanent secretary. Our approach is— Douglas Ross: I am sure that the minister has asked this question, since it has gone right to the top with the permanent secretary.”
“Nevertheless, how many more court cases are we going to go through before common sense prevails in the SNP Government? How much more taxpayers’ money is the SNP Government going to waste? The Scottish Parliament is an institution that people respect, but under the SNP it has become an echo chamber that does not reflect the priorities of the people of Scotland. Many women, including myself, are looking forward to receiving a response from the minister in closing. I hope that she will be able to give us that information. We have For Women Scotland and many other organisations and individuals in the public gallery, waiting to hear from the minister whether she and her Government will implement the law in the Supreme Court ruling. We want just a simple yes or no, minister. The Deputy Presiding Officer: We move to the open debate. 17:27”