Katy Clark
Scottish Labour · Scotland
“I welcome the fact that we are taking steps to reduce the prison population, but there needs to be a wider discussion—I think that we are all agreed on that. Community justice must be expanded.”
“The chamber has been designed so that members speak through the chair, which also means that the microphones will work. If you face me, your microphone should work. Alyn Smith: I am grateful to Amanda Bland for her comment. She is a good colleague on the Criminal Justice Committee, and, as ever, that was a sensible question.”
“Yesterday, I met constituents outside the Parliament who are concerned about the potential impact on local communities and the environment of the energy consumption of proposed AI data centres in Irvine, Bishopbriggs and Hunterston, in my region. At least 24 controversial sites are being considered across Scotland.”
“The member cannot take an intervention, as she is already in additional time. Pauline McNeill: I will conclude with a specific point on deaths in custody, which the Criminal Justice Committee had a brief chat about on Wednesday morning.”
“I move amendment S7M-00469.2, to insert at end: “; is concerned that the current prison population crisis is chronically hampering effective rehabilitation; calls on the Scottish Government to increase its investment in GPS technology and speed up its roll out, and notes that the current approach to rehabilitation, community justice and e…”
“I understand that there is a request for national guidance, but that would be a deviation from where we are as a Parliament. However, if the mood of the Parliament is changing, the Government is open to listening, and that is a conversation to be had.”
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“I was very drawn to Maggie Chapman’s contribution on examples from other countries. Norway, the Netherlands and Estonia have taken dramatic steps to not just reduce their prison populations but look at the wider picture, and the Criminal Justice Committee will certainly look at those examples in very detailed ways. 15:26”
“I welcome the fact that we are taking steps to reduce the prison population, but there needs to be a wider discussion—I think that we are all agreed on that. Community justice must be expanded. On community payback orders and reoffending, the statistics are clear that 42 per cent of those who have had a custodial sentence reoffend within a year, whereas 28.6 per cent of those who have had a community payback order reoffend. Alternatives to custody deliver better reoffending rates. That percentage is still too high, but it is still something for us to look at. I welcome today’s debate, and I welcome the measures—I look forward to participating on them with the Criminal Justice Committee. There is an issue to be dealt with now, and it is good that we are taking steps towards that, but we need to have a wider discussion.”
“The chamber has been designed so that members speak through the chair, which also means that the microphones will work. If you face me, your microphone should work. Alyn Smith: I am grateful to Amanda Bland for her comment. She is a good colleague on the Criminal Justice Committee, and, as ever, that was a sensible question. Turning Point Scotland is a charity. It is independent of Government and that was not a Government initiative. However, it happened 15 years ago under an SNP Administration with SNP support, and it is an example of what we could be doing if we looked at the bigger picture. We are in danger of missing a trick, colleagues, if we just look at the prison population itself, because there is a wider agenda that we need to take good note of.”
“I remind members that there should be no interruptions or interventions during a first speech. To make his first speech, and to move and speak to amendment S7M-00469.5, I call James Adams. 15:08”
“I move amendment S7M-00469.2, to insert at end: “; is concerned that the current prison population crisis is chronically hampering effective rehabilitation; calls on the Scottish Government to increase its investment in GPS technology and speed up its roll out, and notes that the current approach to rehabilitation, community justice and early release is failing to address the prison population crisis.” 14:54”
“The member cannot take an intervention, as she is already in additional time. Pauline McNeill: I will conclude with a specific point on deaths in custody, which the Criminal Justice Committee had a brief chat about on Wednesday morning. There was a promise in the recommendations that families would get unfettered access to the prison system to understand what happened. That is an example of a recommendation that has not been implemented. My plea is that, in this parliamentary session, there should be more implementation of things that had already been recommended in the first place; otherwise, the public will further lose confidence in the justice system.”
“The next item of business is a debate on motion S7M-00469, in the name of Neil Gray, on achieving a sustainable prison population. I invite members who wish to speak in the debate to press their request-to-speak button now. 14:32”
“I understand that there is a request for national guidance, but that would be a deviation from where we are as a Parliament. However, if the mood of the Parliament is changing, the Government is open to listening, and that is a conversation to be had. Continuity of Prescribing and Support for Young People with Neurodevelopmental Conditions (Transition to Adult Healthcare) 2.”
“Yesterday, I met constituents outside the Parliament who are concerned about the potential impact on local communities and the environment of the energy consumption of proposed AI data centres in Irvine, Bishopbriggs and Hunterston, in my region. At least 24 controversial sites are being considered across Scotland. Does the Scottish Government agree that national guidance would not only assist councils and ensure a consistent approach but ensure that the voices of communities are heard strongly in decision making, as the minister said? Hannah Mary Goodlad: I am sympathetic to the concerns that Katy Clark has raised. The national mood in this parliamentary session is for decision making to be held and retained locally.”
“That concludes the debate. Meeting closed at 18:46. Correction Jim Fairlie has identified an error in his contribution and provided the following correction.”
“The member cannot take any further interventions. Stephen Kerr: It is because France has determined to become truly independent in terms of energy sources, including nuclear, which is the backbone of its energy system. The SNP may choose dogma and decline, but the people of Scotland and the Scottish Conservatives choose a future that is much brighter than that. We need our oil and gas, but we also need nuclear. A serious Government and a serious political party that believed in putting the interests of Scotland first would support all of that.”
“The member is already in additional time so he should not take any interventions. Alan Brown: Okay—thank you, Presiding Officer. Of course, it is undeniable that new nuclear will create jobs. Give me £400 billion and I could create jobs in marine energy, supply chain development, manufacturing, greater energy efficiency installation, carbon capture, pumped storage hydro and battery storage. Jobs in all those areas could be created for that sum of money. The reality is that, if nuclear were so cheap, dependable and deliverable, there would not be the failed market system that exists in the UK. It seems ironic to me that the biggest free marketeers in the Parliament—the Tories and Reform—are the biggest cheerleaders for the billions of pounds of subsidies for nuclear and the many false dawns and promises. Our position is vindicated. 18:13”
“The next item of business is a members’ business debate on motion S7M-00258, in the name of Liam Kerr, on nuclear power in Scotland. Motion debated, That the Parliament considers that nuclear power in Scotland produces cheap, dependable and green electricity; notes the findings of the Nuclear Industry Association that Torness Nuclear Power Station, which is set to cease production in 2030, has generated 307 TWh of clean electricity since 1988, which it believes is sufficient to power every home in the country for 36 years, and has averted a minimum of 101 million tonnes of CO2 emissions; understands that nuclear power brings significant financial benefits and supports hundreds of jobs and contractors; believes that Scotland’s civil nuclear industry could have supported over 10,000 jobs if the sector had experienced the same growth rate as that in England; considers that the “no new nuclear” position of the Scottish Government has led to an exodus of workers from Scotland; recognises calls from the Nuclear Industry Association for the Scottish Government to end its political opposition to nuclear power in order that this can form part of a balanced energy mix that it considers the country needs, alongside its North Sea oil and gas industry; notes the view that this must be supported, encouraged and no longer subject to a presumption against oil and gas, and further notes the view that the Scottish Government must act decisively to protect jobs, deliver energy security and provide cheaper energy by unlocking nuclear energy production in Scotland.”
“The member cannot take an intervention, as he is already in additional time. Alex Cole-Hamilton: We need immigration, but we also need to recognise that we are a home for refugees. Scotland has a proud history of offering safe harbour to those who are fleeing war, persecution and intolerance, and we should proudly remember and embrace that, because it is very much part of our tapestry and heritage. The title of the motion refers to “Five Years to 2031” as if that is some kind of countdown. I ask Reform members to reflect on their use of language today and the attacks that they have levelled against communities and people in this chamber, and to recognise that it is going to be a very long five years if we have to endure many more debates like this.”
“We need to build things again, think things again and ensure that the founders who create businesses in Scotland are encouraged to keep them in Scotland, employ Scottish people and make sure that they are sustaining the economy that then funds our public services. Our health service needs fixed—my goodness, it needs fixed. We have heard several times in excellent speeches from across the chamber about the waiting times for people who are waiting for treatment and care. We have said many times that that is not a deficiency of our hospitals but a deficiency of social care.”
“It is not incompatible to support jobs in the North Sea and to recognise that we have a duty, as a nation, to play our part in driving towards net zero. Climate change is the final boss of the 21st century. If Reform members do not like the migration crisis that has been caused by war in continental Africa and other similar places, they are going to be horrified by the migration crisis that happens as a result of climate change making large parts of our world completely uninhabitable. We also talk about aspects of our economy being broken. Of course that is true, and we need to reform things such as planning, skills and housing to ensure that it is easier to build things here and to invest in Scotland. We must ensure that we have the skills pipeline that we need and that there are places for people to live.”
“Daniel Johnson: Does the member agree with me that, although parties or individuals might not be fascist, they need to think about whether they might be enabling those who absolutely do proclaim and explicitly pursue fascism? Alex Cole-Hamilton: I absolutely agree with Daniel Johnson. The struggle for progress and equality is never truly won; we have to win it with every generation. We see in the rhetoric the measure of the challenge that falls to our generation. Liberal Democrats believe in fixing what is broken, so let us talk about the things that we need to reform. One thing that absolutely is broken is our climate. I have heard several speakers from the Reform party talk about the climate emergency as if it is not a real thing. Net zero is part of how we fix our climate.”
“As the standing orders make clear, it is a matter of whether a comment is in relation to an individual or whether it is a point of debate. The point was not specifically aimed at an individual. Alex Cole-Hamilton: It is important to address that, Presiding Officer. The terms “displacement” and “othering” have associations with the language of the Third Reich. I make no suggestion or implication that Reform would adopt the policies of the Third Reich. However, we must be very careful when we talk about displacement, replacement theory and othering, which have become more widespread as the Overton window has shifted. I apologise if any offence has been taken.”
“The member must wind up. Jenni Minto: —not to tell people that Scotland cannot succeed, but to build a Scotland that does.”
“The member should be bringing her remarks to a close. Jenni Minto: I am about to. That is how we improve things—not by the constant negativity that we hear from those on the benches to my left. George Orwell wrote “1984” in Barnhill on the Isle of Jura in Argyll and Bute. I cannot help but think of his warning that language can be used to distort reality. My constituent reminded me why I came to this Parliament—”
“To build a truly equal and united society, Reform will speak unapologetically for men as well as women, for working-class boys as well as girls, and for a politics grounded in merit, fairness and shared identity, rather than grievance and division. 16:36”
“The member has made it clear that she is not taking interventions. Amanda Lindsay: I am not taking any more interventions. Reform will end DEI initiatives across all Scottish public institutions, because, far from delivering fairness, they institutionalise division and discrimination. In our schools, we will withdraw materials produced by activist organisations, in order to protect children from an ideology that is causing real and lasting harm. And, while respecting people’s personal choices, we will champion genuine equality of opportunity, not quotas or targets that pit one group against another.”
“The member cannot take an intervention, because she is coming to the end of her speech. Jackie Dunbar: I do not get as much time as many others do. Scotland does not need Reform; Scotland needs independence. 16:32”
“We can secure cheap energy for everyone if we ensure that we protect and add to our industrial base. That is what will reduce bills for everyone, keep the lights on for Scotland’s future and reduce our carbon emissions in the long term. 16:25”
“Duncan Massey is already in additional time, so he should not take any more interventions. Duncan Massey: What Alex Kerr said is fantasy. The SNP’s intervention was to try and turn Grangemouth into a beetroot refinery. Those people are out of their minds. It is simple: if we want real economic growth, industry, jobs and cheaper energy bills, we need a pragmatic energy policy that focuses on cheap, abundant and reliable energy. That means that we have to acknowledge that we have a failing system with the highest industrial energy costs in the world. It also means that we need to maximise our oil and gas resources in the short and medium term, increase our use of nuclear power—just like successful France, which I mentioned—and have renewables in a complementary role.”
“The member must draw her remarks to a close. Angela Ross:—but only if we build an education and skills system that is worthy of our history and essential to our future. Scotland needs Reform. 16:12”
“The member should start to wind up. Angela Ross: In post-school education, we need to look more closely at apprenticeships and ensure that we offer additional options through partnering with industry. Engineering UK forecasts a shortfall of 20,000 engineers by 2030 unless apprenticeship numbers rise sharply. We should look at ensuring that apprenticeships are a resource that can help young people build skills, confidence and careers. Scotland can rise again—”
“Learning is not something that happens once at a single stage in life; it is a lifelong journey of acquiring skills and knowledge. We must broaden the subjects on offer. Alongside science, technology, engineering and mathematics subjects, we must restore the arts, because creativity and critical thinking are not optional extras. They help young people analyse information, question assumptions, solve problems and make sound decisions in every area of life. They teach them how to think, not what to think. After our debate today, I am glad that we will be looking at doing that as part of our movement forward, because we need people who can scrutinise what is going on in the world around them. That is essential not only for innovation but for confidence, resilience and responsible citizenship.”
“The member does not have to take an intervention, but if she does, she gets additional time. Angela Ross: I will continue. Literacy is the foundation upon which opportunity is built in life. We need a knowledge- based curriculum. We have lost the excellent curriculum that we once had. We need to assess learning. For literacy purposes, we need a phonics-first approach, which does not mix with cueing or whole-language methods. Someone said that Reform does not offer solutions, but that is a solution that is used successfully in England, Australia and Canada, which have higher attainment levels than Scotland. Reform’s ambition is to reinvigorate our education system so that every young Scot has early, clear and credible pathways into productive work and productive lives. That will benefit society, communities and our economy.”
“As the member is aware, that is not a point of order. However, he has put the matter on the record. We have another point of order. Does Gary Bouse intend to make a point of order this time? I remind members that if they wish to make a point of order, they should press the point-of-order button. If they do not wish to make a point of order, they should not. If Mr Johnson wishes to make a point of order in the future, I ask him to press the button, and I ask Mr Bouse not to if he does not. Gary Bouse: Thank you, Presiding Officer. You are quite right—I apologise. I should have declared an interest to members during my question earlier when I talked about the Larbert data centre, because I live in Larbert. I did not do that earlier, and it is probably right that I do. I apologise.”
“There is no point of order, so we can move on. I believe that Zen Ghani wishes to speak. Zen Ghani: Presiding Officer, I will ask my question again. To ask the Scottish Government what steps were taken to achieve a near-record 93.5 per cent of school leavers heading into positive destinations in 2024-25.”
“The next portfolio is education, culture and Gaelic. If a member wishes to ask a supplementary question, they should press their request-to-speak button during the relevant question. Question 1 has been withdrawn. Before question 2, I will allow members on the front benches a moment to take their places. Breakfast Clubs (Primary and Special Schools) 2.”
“A number of members have indicated that they wish to ask a question on this issue. I will take one further question, which will be from Claire Baker, although I ask her to keep it brief.”
“Will the minister set out a clear timeline for the consultation and development of those management measures, to give assurance to our coastal communities? Jim Fairlie: As I said, I am currently working on that consultation. The cabinet secretary has given a commitment that it will be done as soon as possible. However, a considerable amount of work needs to be done to make sure that we ask the right questions and get robust plans in place and, at the same time, make sure that rural coastal communities are protected.”
“I will give the minister a moment. Jim Fairlie: The answer to the question that Gillian Mackay asks about marine protected areas concerns, I have to admit, a new element of my portfolio. I am working on it with our officials and stakeholders right now. I took receipt of the petition that was presented yesterday in front of the Parliament building, and I am actively working on it as we speak. Gillian Mackay: I am pleased that the minister is getting up to speed on that part of the portfolio. Scotland’s network of marine protected areas was intended to be a vital marine safeguard, but the designation itself does not protect our marine environment from the impacts of trawling and dredging.”
“The member who lodged question 3 is not in the chamber, so we will move to question 4. Marine Protected Areas and Priority Marine Features (Management) 4.”
“The first item of business this afternoon is portfolio question time, and the first portfolio is climate action and rural affairs. I remind members that questions 5, 9 and 10 have been grouped together. I will take any supplementaries on those questions after all three have been answered. If a member wishes to request a supplementary question, they should press their request-to-speak button during the relevant question. Food Production Systems 1.”
“Due to the number of members who wish to speak in the debate, I am minded to accept a motion without notice, under rule 8.14.3, to extend the debate by up to 30 minutes. I invite Jack Middleton to move the motion. Motion moved, That, under Rule 8.14.3, the debate be extended by up to 30 minutes.—[Jack Middleton] Motion agreed to. 18:57”
“The final item of business is a members’ business debate on motion S7M-00227, in the name of Jack Middleton, on save STV North news. The debate will be concluded without any question being put. Motion debated, That the Parliament condemns Ofcom’s reported decision to approve controversial plans to end STV’s dedicated news coverage for the North of Scotland; acknowledges that the plans were strongly opposed by the Scottish Government, MSPs from five political parties, STV workers and the general public; notes reports that a survey of viewers across North Scotland found that only 4% were in favour of the plans, and further notes the calls on television regulator, Ofcom, to urgently reconsider this decision. 18:27”
“I move amendment S7M-00434.4, to leave out from “recognises” to end and insert: “believes that there are significant risks to the economy from over-reacting and declaring an imminent emergency which is not underpinned by scientific data; notes that Scotland is facing an economic growth challenge and that current net zero policies are contributing to unsustainable cost increases and expensive energy, which are in turn contributing to deindustrialisation, the loss of jobs and an increase to the cost of living; agrees that Scotland needs pragmatic, sensible and proportionate policies that balance the economy and achieve cheap and abundant energy with long-term reduction of emissions, and resolves that Scotland must maximise its North Sea oil and gas resources in the short to medium term, whilst planning for the long term by investing in reliable, large-scale solutions such as nuclear power, with renewables continuing to play an important but complementary role.” 16:12”
“It means that we must maximise our domestic oil and gas resources in the short to medium term. It means planning for the long term by investing in reliable, large-scale solutions such as nuclear, with renewables playing an important but complementary role. That is how we will secure cheap energy for everyone; protect and add to our industrial base; protect our world- leading oil and gas industry and downstream petrochemicals industry; and keep the lights on for Scotland’s future while we reduce carbon emissions over the long term in a pragmatic, sensible and proportionate way.”
“The member has already moved into additional time, so he will not be able to take interventions. Duncan Massey: The Berwick Bank wind farm is expected to kill tens of thousands of birds, but, apparently, that is not a problem, and it was rushed through in the name of stopping climate change. All this is happening in a world that is changing rapidly. We are in a new geopolitical era for the major powers—the United States, China and an emerging India. It is an era in which conflict might well re-emerge and in which artificial intelligence is emerging as the key technology. What do all those things need? They need energy. Reliable, cheap and abundant energy is what success in this new world will require. That means balancing choices and making sensible decisions.”
“The cabinet secretary should not interrupt from a sedentary position. Duncan Massey: Those jobs are not necessarily in the areas that are affected by industrial closures, and they are certainly not in the same numbers. Renewables all depend on massive subsidies, which end up on people’s bills. There is another uncomfortable truth: some of the policies that we are pursuing do massive environmental harm.”
“However, I think that the CBI report overstates the number of jobs, because it includes jobs in many industries such as waste, water, utilities and forestry, and people in advocacy groups. The number of actual jobs associated with renewables in Scotland is around 16,000—that figure is from the Office for National Statistics. Gillian Martin: It is not— Duncan Massey: It is. Gillian Martin: It is not just renewables—”
“To come to the point about GVA, I think that the analysis in the CBI Scotland report is mistaken, because the costs of current policies are driving a fragile energy system with some of the most expensive energy in the world. Industrial energy costs here are double those of the US and four times those of China; we have nearly lost our primary steel industry; our chemical, pharmaceuticals and ceramics industries are all being hammered; our oil and gas industry is being closed down; we no longer produce our own fertiliser; and, across the board, manufacturing is uncompetitive as a result of those high costs. It is all the more futile when we recognise that those materials are still produced, just not in Scotland. They are produced abroad and then imported with far higher emissions. Of course, there are jobs in renewables, which I welcome.”
“As the Scottish Government’s own data has shown, our emissions have been flat since 2020, with no decline despite huge amounts of taxpayers’ money having been thrown at the problem. Secondly, those net zero policies are driving huge costs that are deindustrialising the whole country and driving up our energy bills. Gillian Martin: It is important to point out that the facts and the data show that Scotland’s emissions have halved since 1990 as a result of climate action. I also refer to the GVA that I mentioned in my speech—while emissions have dropped, productivity has gone up. Duncan Massey: Emissions fell after 1990 as a result of our moving to gas, away from coal. The cabinet secretary can look up her own chart in her own report—our emissions over the past five years have been flat.”
“Duncan Massey: It was certainly contributory. Again, let us be science based and fact based about the problem, and let us acknowledge that climate change sits alongside other problems such as lack of growth, lack of jobs and the cost of living crisis. Unfortunately, our policies have made those problems interconnected. We need to ensure that our responses are pragmatic and long term and that our policies are focused on the needs of people rather than on arbitrary emissions targets. Let us be clear: our current net zero policies are not working, and they are not proportionate. First, they are not having any actual impact. Scotland’s annual emissions are 0.08 per cent of global emissions, or about one day of Chinese emissions.”
“It sees an increase in dry and simultaneously windy weather that can influence wildfire, but it highlights that wildfires are more dependent on land use and nearby human activity to provide ignition and fuel. The Dava moor fire is a case in point. The fire was started by a flare during a coastguard exercise. Although there was extremely dry weather, it was exacerbated by an increase in fuel as a result of fewer controlled burns, and of land use changes that resulted in fewer firebreaks and fewer gamekeepers being available to fight the incident. Jim Fairlie: The facts are that the Dava wildfire went through every landscape—it did not matter whether it was forestry, wetland, peatland or managed land—so it is simply not correct to say that the only reason for the scale of the Dava fire was that the land had not been managed.”
“Lloyd Melville: I gently point out to the member that, in my constituency, I watched people being evacuated from their homes by boat because of severe rainstorms and severe river flooding. Does he accept that that is the reality of climate change that we are facing right now? Duncan Massey: I reiterate the science—the IPCC does not see that as a trend. Lloyd Melville: It is happening now. Duncan Massey: The IPCC does not see it as a trend—that is the science. Quite often, when we look at individual events, we see that there has been a failure to dredge rivers, or building on flood plains, and all those factors contribute strongly. The IPCC also does not currently attribute wildfire occurrence to climate change.”
“Members do not need to take interventions. Duncan Massey: The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change has quietly removed its RCP— representative concentration pathway—8.5 scenario, which once again highlights that the scientific consensus is that there is slow and mild warming, with the mid-term estimate being another 1°C to 1.5°C increase by the end of the century. What are the real impacts of that warming? Again, the IPCC sees the likely emergence of more heatwaves, but it does not see a climate change signal for river floods, heavy rainfall, drought of all types, severe wind storms or tropical storms. Lloyd Melville: Will the member take an intervention on that point? Duncan Massey: Yes.”