Foysol Choudhury
Independent · Scotland
“To ask the Scottish Government, in light of reports that it is not currently on track to meet its target to reduce child poverty to less than 10 per cent by 2031, what its response is to children’s charities stating that its child poverty plan is “timid” and does not go far enough. (S6O-05709)”
“Sport supports children’s mental wellbeing and improves discipline and performance in the classroom, and team sports help young people grow into better adults by teaching co-operation, respect and how to both win and lose with dignity. Research consistently shows that active children are far more likely to lead healthier lives as adults.”
“It provides safe and engaging activities such as basketball, football, rugby and fencing as well as vital support to vulnerable young people. Youth sport should also be a long-term priority, to ensure that Scotland finds its sporting talent and builds home-grown champions to compete in international games.”
“Some of the young people told me that, without access to school facilities, they did not know how they would spend their summer and that they might start to get involved with things that they should not be getting involved with. That reflects a wider reality.”
“First, I thank Brian Whittle for securing this much- anticipated members’ business debate and for championing sports throughout this parliamentary session. As members might know, I was a restaurateur in my former life, and it did not make me much of a morning person.”
“Through groups such as Scot Bangla sporting club and Scot Nepal club in Edinburgh, sport helps to integrate newcomers and celebrate diversity. Community organisations are doing remarkable work, but they cannot do it alone—they need sustained nationwide support.”
The complete record
Every one of 293 lines we hold for Foysol Choudhury, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 2 of 6.
“What urgent action is the Scottish Government taking to ensure adequate fire service provision in Edinburgh, in the light of the reported proposal to close Marionville fire station, despite the area’s expanding population and the increased activity at Leith docks?”
“That very much fits in with my sense of embracing and understanding our past. I would be happy to write to Mr Choudhury with some more details. Again, I take this opportunity to put on the record my appreciation to Professor Palmer, Mr Choudhury’s friend, who, incidentally, also served on the steering group. Creative Industries Leadership Group 2.”
“Will the cabinet secretary provide an update on his work with museums to promote antiracist education and on how that is being integrated into efforts to decolonise the curriculum in Scottish schools, ahead of black history month? Angus Robertson: Answering Foysol Choudhury’s question gives me an opportunity to pay tribute to Professor Sir Geoff Palmer, who I know was a close friend of his. Professor Palmer played an outstanding role in the recent history of Scotland coming to terms with its past. It is really important that we learn the lessons of Scotland’s history, that it is made relevant in our schools and that we embrace the challenge, as we have done in my tenure. For example, among other things, we have seen the return of a commemorative community pole to the Nisga’a people in British Columbia in western Canada.”
“Amendment agreed to. The Presiding Officer: The amendment in the name of Michael Marra falls. The next question is, that motion S6M-18779, in the name of Murdo Fraser, on improving Scotland’s finances, as amended, be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Presiding Officer: There will be a division. The vote is closed. James Dornan: On a point of order, Presiding Officer. This time, I will say it more quietly. I could not connect to the voting system. I would have voted yes. The Presiding Officer: Thank you, Mr Dornan. We will ensure that your vote is recorded.”
“On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I am having connection issues, too. I would have voted no. The Presiding Officer: Thank you, Mr Choudhury. We will ensure that your vote is recorded. For Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Ross Greer] Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Alba) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) Against Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Ind) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Reform) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) [Proxy vote cast by Willie Rennie] The Presiding Officer: The result of the division on amendment S6M-18779.3, in the name of Ivan McKee, is: For 67, Against 51, Abstentions 0.”
“How exactly does the Scottish Government plan to protect vital carbon mitigation research at the Royal Botanic Garden Edinburgh in the interim period while the biomes project secures funding? Mairi Gougeon: I would like to say how much we value the work that the Royal Botanic Garden Edinburgh undertakes through its research and in relation to its collections. I hope that I have emphasised that so far. That is why we work so closely with it, and particularly through the difficult budget situation that we are all facing at the moment. We all want to work to support the Royal Botanic Garden Edinburgh, which is certainly what I am committed to doing. Derelict Land and Vacant Buildings (Urban Areas) 8.”
“Kidney Research UK’s action plan for Scotland says that the current approach is “haphazard”, with huge variation from practice to practice. The argument for a specific policy focus is a reasonable one. Chronic kidney disease does not have to be something that is caught when it is too late or something that takes over a person’s life. The upcoming long-term conditions strategy is an opportunity to ensure that that is the case. 18:03”
“Other countries, such as Sweden and Finland, are looking to increase self-care to 50 per cent and 40 per cent respectively. We should have a similar ambition, so that everyone who wants at-home care can access it. However, as with most conditions, our focus should be on prevention and ensuring that as few people as possible get to the point at which they require dialysis. That involves raising awareness of chronic kidney disease through education, and informing those with conditions that put them more at risk about how to manage their conditions. It also involves supporting primary care to reach out to the communities and groups that are most affected, especially ethnic minorities, who are seven times more likely to face kidney failure in their lives.”
“It is therefore right that we should look to raise awareness. I welcome the progress that has been made on CKD in recent years, including reimbursing people for the electricity costs of at-home dialysis. Many people who are in the later stages of CKD spend hours in hospital—sometimes three days a week—undergoing treatment. Members will appreciate how that could upend people’s lives and take them away from work, their families and the things that they enjoy. At-home dialysis can lessen the burden and give people back control over their conditions. It can also free up NHS staff time and lessen the burden on health services. However, only about 12.5 per cent of patients are currently treated at home. Given the benefit, I struggle to believe that that is a true reflection of demand.”
“I congratulate Kenneth Gibson on bringing an important issue to the chamber. I have previously considered it as a member of the Citizen Participation and Public Petitions Committee, which is when I first researched chronic kidney disease. I was surprised to find that 10 per cent of Scotland’s population are living with the condition—that would be more than 90,000 people in the NHS Lothian area. Despite that prevalence, it is not an issue that has drawn much attention. A third of people with CKD are not even diagnosed, according to Kidney Research UK. Chronic kidney disease refers to a range of conditions that affect the functioning of the kidneys. It overlaps with many other conditions, such as obesity, diabetes and heart disease, and it can be treated through lifestyle changes such as exercise.”
“To ask the Scottish Government what discussions the economy secretary has had with business leaders regarding work to maximise the economic impact of Edinburgh’s festivals. (S6O-04866)”
“On a point of order, Presiding Officer. My app did not refresh. Will you check whether my vote went through? If it did not, I would have voted yes. The Presiding Officer: Thank you, Mr Choudhury. I can confirm that your vote will be recorded—it had not been previously.”
“If UNRWA has specific asks about supplying aid to Gaza, I am sure that members across the chamber will be interested in learning about them, and I will be happy to share that information with members. Foysol Choudhury will understand that the response to the situation in Gaza is mostly a reserved function. I wish that that was not the case—I wish that Scotland was able to impose an arms export ban, but we cannot. Therefore, I urge him to use his good offices to ask his colleagues in the UK Labour Government to do the decent thing and end all arms export licences to Israel. Rural Museums 5.”
“Conditions in Gaza are appalling, with 470,000 people facing catastrophic hunger and reports of desperate Gazans being shot while trying to access life- saving aid. Has the cabinet secretary discussed with colleagues what further actions can be taken, within devolved powers, to end the suffering? Will he provide an update on revised guidance for Scottish Enterprise human rights checks? Angus Robertson: That work is in progress. In answer to Foysol Choudhury’s question about on- going discussions on the situation in Gaza, I can confirm that, tomorrow, I am meeting the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East.”
“The Deputy Presiding Officer: I invite Pam Duncan-Glancy to wind up and to press or withdraw amendment 109. Pam Duncan-Glancy: In the interests of time, I will make no further comment. I press amendment 109. The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, that amendment 109 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a division. The vote is closed.”
“Officials have also met the Scottish Information Commissioner to garner his thoughts. As Mr Dey has emphasised, that work is extremely complicated, so members will appreciate that time needs to be taken to ensure that it is done properly. I will be more than happy to engage with Ms Duncan-Glancy on the substantials of her amendment 109, and I am sure that Mr Dey will feel similarly. The issues that she raises in that amendment are important, but they cannot be delivered through the current bill, so I cannot support either of her amendments in this group. However, I reiterate my invitation to discuss the matter with her and other members with an interest in establishing a unique learner number, outwith the confines of the bill process.”
“At the committee’s evidence session on 11 June, Mr Dey set out the progress that has been made in recent months on the work that we have undertaken on a unique learner number, which has included engagement with Universities Scotland, the Scottish Funding Council and the Commissioner for Fair Access. Pam Duncan-Glancy: That particular committee session included quite a long discussion on what could or could not be done on data-sharing arrangements. If the bill that is before us is not the mechanism for addressing that aspect, will the cabinet secretary advise members which bill would cover it? Jenny Gilruth: I think it worth while recounting on the record that a lot of work on that aspect is currently going on in the Scottish Government. Mr Dey made that point at committee not three weeks ago.”
“First, the issues go beyond the responsibility of the advisory council of either body and the matters that they would be expected to advise on. It would also not be within the responsibility of either organisation, nor would it be within its gift, to implement changes as a result of any such advice. Consideration of any such changes would need consultation with stakeholders across the whole of education and skills, including higher and further education institutions, whose autonomy must be recognised. 17:45 I note that, on 15 May, the Education, Children and Young People Committee published its report on widening access to higher education, following its inquiry into progress on widening such access.”
“These amendments will do nothing more and nothing less than ensure that the new qualifications body and the inspectorate ask themselves at the outset whether a unique learner number is the tool that they need to make Scottish education fairer and more effective. I move amendment 109, and I commend amendment 224 to the chamber. Jenny Gilruth: I thank Ms Duncan-Glancy for setting out the purpose of her amendments 109 and 224. At stage 2, similar amendments were debated, which I did not support, and I am not prepared to support these amendments. Although I do not want to revisit those arguments today, for the benefit of those who were not present at stage 2, I will provide an overview of why the proposed provisions are not appropriate for the bill.”
“Thirdly, it would reduce the administrative burden on schools that currently have to match learners across multiple incompatible systems. Members will know that there are on-going pilots looking at widening access support for students who are going on to college and university. Having that number attached to individuals will mean that we are able to refine the system so that families get the right support for their income. I am, of course, conscious of privacy concerns. That is precisely why the amendments require consideration of data-sharing agreements as part of the exercise. Any recommendation emerging from the process would have to satisfy data protection law, and would come back to Parliament for approval, as is good and correct. Good data is the foundation of good policy.”
“If the answer is yes, Parliament will know early, and can scrutinise any proposals in detail before money is spent. Amendment 224 is a companion amendment that will apply the same expectation to the chief inspector’s advisory council. That will ensure that the inspectorate’s advice to ministers is informed by the same question: would a unique identifier assist the evaluation of standards and outcomes across different learning settings? Members will appreciate three advantages to a unique identifier. First, it would allow policy makers to trace a cohort’s progress accurately and see, for example, how many young people progress through education. Secondly, it would support fairer funding by allowing people to spot where support is and is not working.”
“To understand whether that journey is smooth or broken or whether the attainment gap narrows or widens, and to address the challenges identified in those areas, it is important to be able to follow the same learner securely and confidentially across the whole system. That is the purpose of amendment 109. It does not impose a new database or system specifically, and it does not compel any school to adopt a particular piece of software overnight. What it requires is simply this: that qualifications Scotland, when planning how it will deliver and improve its functions, considers whether creating a unique learner number, supported by an appropriate data-sharing agreement, would help. If the answer is no, the agency may set out its reasons and move on.”
“On that basis, we should support the amendments that are pressed in the group. On that note, I will press amendment 108. Amendment 108 agreed to. Section 9—Strategic Advisory Council The Deputy Presiding Officer: Group 6 is on unique learner number. Amendment 109, in the name of Pam Duncan-Glancy, is grouped with amendment 224. Pam Duncan-Glancy: Every learner travels a journey that stretches far beyond a single classroom or a single year group. They move from early years to primary, from primary to secondary and, if we do our jobs right and properly, on to college, university, apprenticeships, work-based training or work.”
“Perhaps the cabinet secretary could intervene to help out, because I would like to check my understanding that, if amendment 110 is not pressed, amendments 118 to 120 should still work, and that I should still press them. I think that the point that the cabinet secretary is making is that amendment 110 is no longer required. Jenny Gilruth: Yes. Pam Duncan-Glancy: I thank the cabinet secretary for that. The membership of the strategic advisory council is crucial, because qualifications Scotland needs to be fit for the future. I have said, at other times, that I am worried about its ability to do that. However, at the very least, through its membership, it has to reach out across the qualifications system, across industry and skills and across the representative bodies.”
“The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call Pam Duncan-Glancy to wind up and to press or withdraw amendment 108. Pam Duncan-Glancy: On the basis of the commitments that the Government has made to include representatives of trade unions, directors of education, representatives of colleges and universities, and people who have knowledge and skills relevant to business and industry, I am prepared to not move the amendments when the time comes, now that we will secure the membership of those groups through regulation. However, I wish that the Government had used the opportunity to lodge manuscript amendments to do that; I genuinely believe that it could have done so. Nonetheless, I think that we can achieve a similar aim. I also take the point about amendment 110.”
“I therefore cannot support amendment 110, but I reassure Ms Duncan-Glancy that it is not needed to achieve her desired outcome, because the ability to make provision under section 9(2)(b) will, of course, be restricted by anything that section 9(3) says about what the regulations must do. The council conveners are simply a particular type of member, so it will not be possible to make provision about the tenure of office of either the conveners or other members that conflicts with the provisions in amendments 118 and 120. I hope that that reassures Ms Duncan-Glancy that amendment 110 is therefore not necessary, and I ask her not to move it, on the basis that it would insert a reference to a provision that will be removed, which would only confuse matters.”
“That includes the teaching trade unions, university and college representatives, local authorities, and other organisations and bodies for educational qualifications, training skills and industry. It goes without saying that the Government fully supports the principle of those groups being on the strategic advisory council. Given the strength of interest, from all members, on the clarity of that in legislation, I put it on the record that we commit to working with members, as Ms Duncan-Glancy has alluded to, to prescribe those groups in regulations. I turn to Ms Duncan-Glancy’s amendment 110, which cross-refers to sections 9(3)(ac) and 9(3)(ad). Her amendments 118 to 120 would restructure those provisions, which means that the cross-references would no longer work.”
“However, I want to reassure Ms Duncan-Glancy that all the persons and organisations that she has sought to prescribe today are those that we fully expect to be on the membership of the strategic advisory council, whether enshrined in regulations or otherwise. That includes the teaching trade unions, which Ross Greer— Pam Duncan-Glancy: Will the cabinet secretary give a commitment? Rather than saying “fully expect”, will she say that the groups that are outlined in amendments 112 to 117 will be included on the strategic advisory council via regulation? Jenny Gilruth: Yes, I am happy to give that commitment. That is my absolute expectation. However, I want to talk about the detail.”
“Amendment 114’s mention of “Directors of Education in Scotland” is, presumably, intended to mean the Association of Directors of Education in Scotland, but that is not what it says. Even if the wording were adjusted, it would not work if the network were replaced in the future. Similarly, amendment 116 deliberately avoids referring to the Scottish Further and Higher Education Funding Council, but that is set up in statute, so could safely be referred to—and it would be clearer to do so. I therefore ask Ms Duncan-Glancy not to move amendments 112 to 117, on the basis that suitable, accurate and future-proof provision about membership can be made without its needing to be done right now in the bill.”
“Neither are Ms Duncan-Glancy’s other amendments on membership suitably future- proofed, in my view. For example, directors of education in Scotland— Ross Greer: Before the cabinet secretary moves on, I have a question for clarification on amendment 112. I understand entirely the drafting issues that she has raised; however, for the Green group, the most important element of amendment 112 is the ensuring of trade union representation. The cabinet secretary has mentioned regulations as an alternative. Will she put on the record now that there absolutely will be trade union representation? Jenny Gilruth: I will come on to that point in dealing with amendment 114 but, to give Ross Greer reassurance in advance, on the record, yes, that is my position.”
“I am particularly mindful— Pam Duncan-Glancy: I appreciate the points that the cabinet secretary has made. However, when the Government saw the amendments being published, why did it not bring forward some manuscript amendments, as it did for other amendments in my name, in order to tidy up those aspects, so that it could support them? Jenny Gilruth: As I was going to come on to say, the view of the Government is that there will be an option of simply waiting to get it right, as provided for in the regulations, and I do not recall that the issue was raised by any member during stage 2. I may be wrong on that, Presiding Officer—I will come back to that point—but I do not recall its being raised. Neither was it raised by the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee. No issues were raised around our establishing that detail via regulation.”
“Although there are definitions of those terms in the bill, they are expressly limited to covering only paragraph 3 of schedule 1, so the idea of relevancy is unclear in the context of section 9. There is also no definition of “trade union”, which contrasts with both paragraph 14A of schedule 1, in which there is a local definition, and Ms Duncan-Glancy’s amendments 151 and 302, which would insert local definitions when referring to trade unions. In addition, the amendment continues to refer to “additional support needs” rather than also capturing those with support needs at colleges by adopting the broader term that would be introduced by Mr Briggs’s amendment 76. Therefore, although the principle behind amendment 112 may be commendable, its detail presents a range of challenges for the reasons that I have set out.”
“Although I generally have concerns about being overly prescriptive by putting rules in primary legislation, I cannot foresee us ever wanting to change that aspect. However, I am afraid that I am unable to support Ms Duncan-Glancy’s amendments 112 to 117, on membership of the council. There are a number of difficulties with some of the specifics, but I also remind members that membership of the council can be fully provided for under regulations. In my view, the bill is not the appropriate place to make detailed provision about membership. To do so now in the way that is suggested in the amendments would put flexibility at risk and would not allow us to future-proof the legislation. Amendment 112 has a number of technical deficiencies. The terms “relevant qualification” and “relevant teaching or training” are not defined.”
“They would ensure that the council has suitable information on wider opinion and can take that into account in its operations without duplicating the consultation that qualifications Scotland will carry out. I support Mr Briggs’s amendments in the group—in particular, amendment 3, which recognises that any rule about having parent members should encompass carers, too. I am also happy to offer my support to Mr Whitfield’s amendment 111. As colleagues know, I would have preferred us to leave all the membership rules out of the bill, but the decision was taken at stage 2 to mention parents. As we are doing that, it is only fair that we also make similar mention of children and young people.”
“A number of them will improve the provisions on the strategic advisory council in important ways that were discussed at stage 2. I support Ms Duncan-Glancy’s amendment 108, which would require qualifications Scotland to publish how it will interact with the council and fulfil its consultation requirements. That will increase scrutiny and transparency. I support Ms Duncan-Glancy’s amendments 118 to 120, which would adjust the term limits for council members. The amendments strike a fair balance between ensuring that individuals are not appointed on an indefinite basis and recognising that we do not want to make the rules so inflexible that institutional memory is lost because too many members are forced to leave at the same point. I support all of Mr Greer’s amendments in the group and I thank him for his continued engagement on them.”
“For too long, we have fostered a culture in which going to university is seen as the ultimate post-school achievement with all other options being considered varying degrees of second-best.” That is a powerful quote, and it is why amendments 112 to 120 are important. Amendment 119 deserves particular mention because it seeks to limit the length of a single term on the advisory council to four years. Amendment 120 would go further and ensure that no individual could serve for more than 12 years in total. Those limits are sensible and much needed. Fresh thinking, new voices and continual renewal must be embedded in the DNA of any national advisory body. That is a theme that I will come back to. Jenny Gilruth: I thank members for explaining the purpose of their amendments in the group.”
“We also have a system that disproportionately channels young people into four-year university degrees, often in oversubscribed fields such as primary teaching or disciplines where there is little to no industry demand in Scotland. The result is that too many graduates emerge into a saturated job market and face the disheartening choices of leaving Scotland to find work, retraining in a completely different field or entering a job that they could have secured in the first place without having the degree. James Withers said: “There is no ‘golden pathway’; no learning journey that is more worthy than another.”
“I highlight that because, if the advisory council is to be more than just a ceremonial talking shop, it must be built on the expertise and experience of people who understand education at every level, and particularly those on the front line. More important, however—this cannot be overstated—it must also include voices from business and industry. Without those perspectives, any recommendation that the council produces, no matter how well intentioned it is, will risk being completely disconnected from the real world of skills demand and economic opportunity. I have already highlighted an example of what I think is happening: we are going in the wrong direction on computing science, and I do not want that outcome to be repeated.”
“I am minded to accept a motion without notice, under rule 9.8.5A of standing orders, to propose that the time limit for groups 3 to 6 be extended by 30 minutes. I invite the Minister for Parliamentary Business to move the motion. Motion moved, That, under Rule 9.8.5A, the time limit for groups 3 to 6 be extended by up to 30 minutes.—[Jamie Hepburn] Motion agreed to. Stephen Kerr: I will take a moment of the Parliament’s time to speak in support of Pam Duncan-Glancy’s amendments 112 to 120, which are important because they seek to improve the legitimacy, relevance and capability of the strategic advisory council.”
“The purpose of the amendments is to improve the transparency and effectiveness of how the advisory council operates to make it more impactful and to better shape qualifications Scotland’s decisions. There is clear consensus that the lack of meaningful consultation and engagement by the SQA was a major contributing factor to the situation that led to the bill, so embedding in law those requirements on various aspects of qualifications Scotland’s structure should prevent a repeat of that. Amendments 121 and 123 are simply consequential amendments that would give effect to amendments 122 and 124. 17:30 The Deputy Presiding Officer: Members will note that we will shortly reach the time limit for groups 3 to 6 and that we still have a further group to debate under that limit.”
“Amendment 3 would expand that provision so that it is about the interests of parents and carers, and amendment 4 would further clarify that it is children and young people undertaking a qualifications Scotland qualification who are relevant here. Ross Greer: Amendments 122 and 124 would provide that the regulations establishing the strategic advisory council must provide for it to consult with the interests committees, any other committees that qualifications Scotland has and anyone else that the council thinks is appropriate, as well as with qualifications Scotland itself. The council should also have regard to any wider consultation that is carried out by qualifications Scotland—that is, it should not duplicate efforts in that regard.”
“I intend to take no further part in this bit of the proceedings, other than to say that, given the rights of children and young people, they need to be represented on the council. Miles Briggs: From the outset of consideration of the bill, I wanted to attempt to make sure that the voice of parents and carers was put at the heart of the new organisation. I am grateful for some of the work that has been done on that, although I have not got everything that I wanted from the bill. Amendments 3 and 4 would expand on and clarify aspects of section 9(3)(ab), which were inserted into the bill by amendment 129 at stage 2. That section provides that members who are appointed to the strategic advisory council must include persons who represent the interests of parents and children and young people undertaking a relevant qualification.”
“Martin Whitfield: Before I start, I draw the attention of members and those who are watching to my entry in the register of members’ interests as a former teacher who was paid at the beginning of the current parliamentary session by a local authority. Amendment 111 says: “members appointed to the council must represent the interests of children and young people”. That arose as a result of my on-going interest in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child and genuinely listening to young people and children about what affects them—not just having them in the room when a decision is made but having advocates and representatives who can go out, find out what their understanding and desires are, and then reflect them in one of the most important areas that the bill deals with, given its overarching aim.”
“Scottish Labour is also happy to support other amendments in the group, including amendments 3 and 4, in the name of Mr Briggs, which would strengthen the voice of parents and carers, and amendments 121 to 124, in the name of Mr Greer, which would strengthen the council’s consultation duties. The advisory council must command respect from all parts of Scottish education, not by title alone but by the fairness of its composition and the transparency of its practice. The amendments that I have outlined would secure that aim. I therefore move amendment 108 and invite members to support the remaining amendments in the group.”
“Amendment 113 would guarantee that those with knowledge of business and industry skills are represented. Amendment 114 would give voice to directors of education, and amendments 115 to 117 would add representatives of colleges, the Scottish Funding Council and universities. Together, those provisions would give Scotland’s learners, practitioners, employers and system leaders a key role in advising the body. Finally, amendments 118 to 120 would clarify that ordinary members may serve no more than three terms, preventing any risk of the council becoming a closed club while still allowing continuity of expertise.”
“Amendment 110 is an avoidance-of-doubt provision that would make clear that any regulations that ministers may bring forward regarding the tenure of a council member must stay within the limits that Parliament established at stage 2. In other words, ministers would not be able to use secondary legislation to undo the term- limit safeguards that colleagues across the chamber agreed to at stage 2. Turning to membership, colleagues will see a series of Scottish Labour amendments— amendments 112 to 115—which, together, define the perspectives that must be present around the table. Amendment 112 would ensure places for those who are undertaking qualifications, for teachers in schools, for college lecturers, for educational trade unions and, importantly, for learners with additional support needs.”
“Section 8—Consultation with Strategic Advisory Council The Deputy Presiding Officer: We turn to group 5, on the strategic advisory council. Amendment 108, in the name of Pam Duncan- Glancy, is grouped with amendments 110 to 117, 3, 4 and 118 to 124. Pam Duncan-Glancy: The strategic advisory council must reflect the full breadth of the voices in Scottish education and its procedures must be transparent from the outset. The amendments in this group would achieve that. Amendment 108 would place a simple obligation on qualifications Scotland to publish in advance the procedures that it will use when consulting the council. Openness at the start would prevent confusion later and give the council the authority that its title implies.”
“In addition, as we discussed during stage 2, Education Scotland is not, in itself, a legal entity. It was created by statute, and it is not an organisation with a separate legal personality, so duties cannot be imposed in relation to it. For those reasons, I urge members to vote against amendment 2, although I assure them that there will be co-operation between Education Scotland and qualifications Scotland. The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call Ross Greer to wind up and to press or withdraw amendment 100. Ross Greer: I have nothing further to add. I press amendment 100. Amendment 100 agreed to. Amendment 2 not moved. Amendments 101 to 103 moved—[Pam Duncan-Glancy]—and agreed to. Amendments 104 to 106 moved—[Ross Greer]—and agreed to. Amendment 107 moved—[Pam Duncan- Glancy]—and agreed to.”
“Although I too hope that the regulation provisions that allow us to substitute another framework will never be needed, it is right to have those provided for in the event that they are required in the future. I support all Ms Duncan-Glancy’s amendments in this group, with the exception of amendment 157, but I understand that she does not intend to move that amendment and will instead support my alternative amendment 318. As Mr Kerr will be aware from stage 2, I am unable to support amendment 2. Although I agree that qualifications Scotland should work with Education Scotland and should consider all stakeholders, I do not believe that that needs to be written into law. A non-legislative approach, such as a memorandum of understanding, would be preferable.”
“They will lock the SCQF into everyday practice, keep Parliament in control of future rebranding and place a statutory expectation of partnership on the key agencies that shape Scotland’s learner journey. I intend to move amendment 101, and I urge members to support the consequential and associated amendments in the group. Jenny Gilruth: I am supportive of all Mr Greer’s amendments in the group, which build on matters that he raised at stage 2 and are practical and workable. I also support what Ms Duncan-Glancy is trying to achieve, especially with amendment 101, which would require qualifications Scotland to “have regard to the Scottish Credit and Qualifications Framework”.”