Annabelle Ewing
Scottish National Party · Scotland
“Before we turn to the next item of business, I hope that members do not mind if I say a few words. I would like to say specifically what an honour it has been for me to serve in the Scottish Parliament, which, of course, was reconvened by my late mother, Winnie Ewing, in 1999.”
“There is one question to be put as a result of today’s business. The question is, that motion S6M-21180, in the name of John Swinney, on a motion of thanks, be agreed to.”
“I hope that members feel that I have discharged my duty. I thank you for having given me the opportunity to be your Deputy Presiding Officer, along with Mr McArthur, and I wish each of you all the very best.”
“Members! Màiri McAllan: Equally, the prospect of scrapping the land and buildings transaction tax or stamp duty land tax is for the birds, and I am afraid that it demonstrates that the Conservatives realise that their chances of implementing any such policies are, to put it politely, very slim.”
“Motion debated, That the Parliament recognises the importance of sport and activity as a force for good that goes beyond just physical health; considers that they have a significant impact on mental health, as well as contributing to community and national cohesion and wellbeing; believes that sport breaks down barriers of colour, race, r…”
“Motion debated, That the Parliament notes with concern the reported decision by the Lloyds Banking Group to close 11 Bank of Scotland branches between June and July 2026, including the Rutherglen branch; understands that this is the latest in a series of bank closures across the UK; believes that these closures will have a significant imp…”
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“Although the increase in funding is welcome, it is nowhere near enough, which is why I and members who support my amendment 256 are determined to protect such funding, should the bill be successful. Bob Doris made the very good point that integration joint boards are not constrained in how they spend their money. We cannot protect such funding by ring fencing it. We must ensure that the bill, if it is passed, does not result in money that has been donated or otherwise provided for palliative care not being spent on palliative care. Bob Doris: I am glad that we have agreement on that point. I am conscious that Jackie Baillie’s amendments were sponsored by Hospice UK, which thinks that their provisions might square the circle, with public bodies having to take proper and due account of the code of practice.”
“Douglas Ross: This debate has been helpful. I will start with the areas of agreement. I absolutely agree with Liam McArthur that those in favour of the bill and those against it can unite on the need for improved palliative care. It is quite disappointing that it has taken such a bill to get that unanimity across the Parliament. Individuals such as my colleague Miles Briggs have worked on the issue for a long time, but we are still nowhere close to where we should be. I accept Jackie Dunbar’s point that there has been an increase in funding, but I go back to the Marie Curie report that sets out that one in three Scots is dying without the level of care that they deserve at the end of their life—18,500 of our fellow Scots are not getting the care that they should get when they need it.”
“10:45 I do not support John Mason’s amendment 257, which relates to his earlier amendment on organisational opt-out, to which I am opposed, because it would interfere with matters that were previously debated relating to the on-going section 104 order process. I support Jackie Baillie’s amendments 258 and 129, which would require public authorities to have due regard to the code of practice, and her amendment 132, which would provide for section 22B to be commenced the day after royal assent. I hope that that offers some reassurance to Bob Doris and others with similar concerns. I worked with Jackie Baillie on amendment 53, which is a technical amendment, and I thank her for lodging it. The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call Douglas Ross to wind up the debate and to press or withdraw amendment 256.”
“The numbers are likely to be very limited in the early years—indeed, that is the trend that we see consistently across jurisdictions that have introduced a choice of this nature. As I said, it will be up to political parties going into the election whether they see it as a priority in which they wish to invest. Jackie Dunbar has mentioned some of the uplift that we have seen in funding for palliative care. I accept that that has been for a particular purpose. However, as a result of the debate that we are having on the bill, we are having a debate about palliative and other end-of-life care options that was not happening prior to the introduction of the bill.”
“Although the Government accepts that it is a difficult thing to calculate, it is very clear that it disagrees with the member on the costings of the bill and the impact that it will have on current resources in the health budget. Is it not important for everyone—supporters and opponents of the bill—to have as many safeguards as possible around an area that, as we have heard from Jackie Dunbar, is as crucial as palliative care? Liam McArthur: I agree with the substantive point that Mr Ross has made. We need as much clarity as we can. The bill, as amended, is not yet clear, so its financial implications will have to be determined once we see what the final bill looks like. We are talking about patients who are already in our health and care system.”
“Always speak through the chair. Liam McArthur: I thank Ms Dunbar for that comment. It is absolutely irrefutable that the debate around the bill has opened up a conversation about palliative and other end-of-life choices that simply was not happening prior to this session. That is a good thing. Irrespective of whatever happens to the bill and of members’ positions on it, it is agreed across the chamber that it is a positive thing. Douglas Ross: I want to come back to Liam McArthur’s opposition to my amendment 256. Does he accept the constructive criticism from the Government, in its letter to the lead committee, about the deficiencies in the financial memorandum?”
“To me, that is not technical—it is about getting to the heart of trust in how the law should operate.”
“I respect the fact that members will approach the wider issue of assisted dying from different perspectives. However, whatever view we take on that larger question, we should be able to agree that the official record of death should be clear and honest about how that death came about. If Parliament is being asked to create a lawful process for assisted dying, the public record should reflect that reality clearly and honestly. If the law changes how life may end, the least that we can do is ensure that the record of death tells the truth about what happened. Liam McArthur’s amendment 46 simply says that “the medical certificate of cause of death is to refer to both the terminal illness and the use of an approved substance”, which disguises how that second part came about.”
“Liam McArthur: I appreciate the difficulty, which we saw in an earlier group in relation to Ross Greer’s amendments. Section 17 already sets out a fairly robust process for the gathering of data on assisted deaths, but I appreciate that members are looking for further information to be added to the reporting process. I think that what Jamie Hepburn is looking for is already in the bill. As I said in response to Pam Duncan-Glancy, there will be further requirements in relation to the information that Public Health Scotland may be required to seek, depending on the outcome of the votes on my amendments. I move amendment 45. Stephen Kerr: Amendment 225, in my name, is different from the amendments in the name of Liam McArthur in that it calls for the recording of the death to be explicitly explained in the context of assisted dying.”
“17:00 Stephen Kerr’s amendment 225, which is pre- empted by my amendment 47, would ensure that the death certificate explicitly stated that the death occurred as a result of assisted dying using an approved substance. I understand and acknowledge the issue, but I remain of the view that the most transparent and accurate thing to do is to record both the terminal illness and the use of the substance on the death certificate, as is provided for by amendment 46. Jamie Hepburn: I appreciate that this is a strange thing to request, but the member has suggested that amendments in other groups might supersede what is in the bill at the moment, which he is seeking to change with amendment 46. If we are going to make a decision on amendment 46, I need to understand what those changes might be, because, as things stand, I am not entirely persuaded.”
“Liam McArthur: Again, Michael Marra may recall that we discussed that issue at stage 2. I am not sure whether he was part of the evidence sessions over five or six weeks of stage 1, but the committee heard reassurance from the Crown Office on the interaction that it would have, certainly over the first five-year period leading up to the review, and that the post-death review process would be fairly rigorous. At the five-year review point, there would be an opportunity to look at whether additional steps on data gathering needed to be taken. I agree that being less prescriptive may be beneficial and would allow those with relevant expertise to determine the best way of achieving the aims of the bill.”
“I understand that, from a practical perspective, there may be other ways of managing the issue to ensure that there is no adverse impact on current data recording or reporting on terminal illnesses. As Pam Duncan-Glancy will recall, that issue was very much part of the debate at stage 2. Michael Marra: Can Liam McArthur confirm whether a post-death review will be required in every case following the recording of a death and who, in those circumstances, will conduct the review? I ask that because, as the member may be aware, in the case of the Isle of Man bill, the lack of compulsory post-death reviews has been raised by the UK Ministry of Justice as being potentially non-compliant with human rights obligations under article 2 of the European convention on human rights. I would appreciate the member’s response on that.”
“I have always been clear that the death certificate would have to contain information on the underlying condition and the substance. On data gathering, in order to understand the extent to which the choice is being accessed and who is accessing it—in discussing later groupings, we will come on to the other data that Public Health Scotland will need to gather as part of that reporting function under the bill—we need to capture how many people are accessing assisted death, while anonymising the data, for obvious reasons. I am sure that Pam Duncan-Glancy would agree with that. However, I recognise the concerns that have been raised about how the current provision would work and the potential impact on data collection— as I say, those concerns were raised by National Records of Scotland and Public Health Scotland.”
“Liam McArthur will be aware that I suggested at stage 2 that, although it would be important to record on the death certificate the illness or the terminal illness that the person lived with, it should also be recorded that the person died by assisted dying. Can the member say whether it will be noted that the substance was used uniquely in that circumstance? If it is not to be noted that it was used uniquely in that circumstance, does the member agree that that will leave a gap in the data, which will therefore not necessarily accurately record the number of assisted deaths in Scotland? Liam McArthur: Pam Duncan-Glancy is absolutely right that there was extensive debate at stage 2 between us about that, but other members, understandably, had concerns and questions about how that would work in practice.”
“That amends the provisions agreed at stage 2 that mandated that the cause of death be recorded as the terminal illness and that the use of an approved substance be recorded as “other relevant medical information”. I have been clear throughout that the death certificate must record both the illness or condition that the terminally ill adult had and the approved substance that was provided and used by the person to end their life. My preference was that the illness should be recorded as the primary cause of death, with the substance also noted and recorded on the death certificate. Pam Duncan-Glancy: I recall some of the exchanges that we had on the issue at stage 2.”
“Amendment 224 agreed to. Section 17—Death certification The Deputy Presiding Officer: Group 11 is on death certification. Amendment 45, in the name of Liam McArthur, is grouped with amendments 46, 47 and 225. I point out that, if amendment 47 is agreed to, I cannot call amendment 225, due to pre-emption. Could those members who are leaving the chamber please do so quickly, without lots of chats? Liam McArthur: My amendments 45, 46 and 47, lodged following collaboration with the Scottish Government, address issues raised by National Records of Scotland and Public Health Scotland. Taken together, they would amend section 17, on death certification. My amendments would ensure that the medical certificate of cause of death would refer to the person’s underlying terminal illness and the use of an approved substance in an assisted death.”
“For Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Ind) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Ind) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Ind) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (Ind) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Ind) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Reform) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) Against Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Abstentions Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 77, Against 47, Abstentions 1.”
“Amendment 106 disagreed to. Section 16—Final statement Amendment 224 moved—[Audrey Nicoll]. The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, that amendment 224 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a division.”
“For Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Ind) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Ind) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (Ind) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Ind) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) Against Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Reform) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Abstentions Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 54, Against 67, Abstentions 3.”
“Amendment 44 disagreed to. Amendment 106 moved—[Sue Webber]. The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, that amendment 106 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a division.”
“For Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Ind) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Against Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Ind) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Ind) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (Ind) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Ind) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Reform) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) Abstentions Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 16, Against 103, Abstentions 4.”
“Amendment 103 agreed to. The Deputy Presiding Officer: Since amendment 103 has been agreed to, I cannot call amendments 104, 105 and 223, due to pre- emption. After section 15 Amendment 44 moved—[Bob Doris]. The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, that amendment 44 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a division.”
“For Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Ind) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Ind) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (Ind) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Ind) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Reform) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) Against Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Ind) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Abstentions Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 96, Against 18, Abstentions 9.”
“Amendment 102 agreed to. The Deputy Presiding Officer: As amendment 102 has been agreed to, amendment 222 has been pre-empted. Amendment 103, in the name of Neil Gray, has already been debated with amendment 90. I remind members that, if amendment 103 is agreed to, amendments 104, 105 and 223 will be pre- empted. Amendment 103 moved—[Neil Gray]. The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, that amendment 103 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a division.”
“For Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Ind) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Ind) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Reform) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Against Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Ind) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (Ind) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Ind) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Abstentions Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 99, Against 15, Abstentions 9.”
“Amendment 101 agreed to. The Deputy Presiding Officer: Amendment 102, in the name of Neil Gray, has already been debated with amendment 90. I remind members that, if amendment 102 is agreed to, amendment 222 will be pre-empted. Amendment 102 moved—[Neil Gray]. The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, that amendment 102 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a division.”
“For Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (Ind) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Against Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Ind) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Ind) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Ind) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Reform) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Abstentions Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Ind) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 93, Against 19, Abstentions 11.”
“The result of the division is: For 14, Against 104, Abstentions 5. Amendment 221 disagreed to. Amendment 101 moved—[Liam McArthur]. The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, that amendment 101 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a division.”
“Section 12—Signing by proxy The Deputy Presiding Officer: Group 9 is on signing by proxy. Amendment 94, in the name of Liam McArthur, is grouped with amendments 190 to 192, 65 and 68. 15:00”
“The next item of business is stage 3 proceedings on the Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill. In dealing with the amendments, members should have the bill as amended at stage 2—that is, SP bill 46A—the marshalled list and the groupings of amendments. The division bell will sound and proceedings will be suspended for around five minutes for the first division of the stage 3 proceedings today. The voting period for the first division will be 30 seconds. Thereafter, I will allow a voting period of one minute for the first division after a debate. Members who wish to speak in the debate on any group of amendments should press their request- to-speak buttons or enter RTS in the chat function as soon as possible after I call the group. Members should now refer to the marshalled list of amendments.”
“The next item of business is a statement by Shirley-Anne Somerville on the tackling child poverty delivery plan. The cabinet secretary will take questions at the end of her statement, and therefore there should be no interventions or interruptions. You have up to 10 minutes, cabinet secretary. 14:26”
“Good afternoon. The next item of business is portfolio question time, and the portfolio is education and skills. Colleges (Borrowing Powers) 1.”
“The Parliament is being asked whether to legislate for assisted dying and it should not delegate the most consequential practical decision to secondary legislation of any type. Members should have the opportunity to examine, debate and approve the substance that would be used. Members across the chamber will approach the legislation from different convictions, and I respect that. However, whatever view we take on the wider principle, these amendments address the practical consequences of the bill. They ensure that there is continuous supervision at the most critical moment and that decisions of such critical gravity remain under the authority and responsibility of this Parliament. When legislation deals with matters of life and death, such safeguards are not excessive; they are the very least that this Parliament should require. 20:00”
“Under the bill as it is drafted, the substances that would be used for assisted dying could be approved through ministerial regulation, with the secretary of state ultimately holding a veto through the section 30 order process. I am grateful to Neil Gray for the way in which he has expanded on what that would mean in practice and the role that would be played by the Scottish ministers. My amendment would require that any approved substance must receive explicit approval from the Parliament. The substance that would be used is not a minor technical detail; it goes to the heart of how the law would operate in practice and it would determine the method by which death would occur and the safeguards that would surround the process.”
“That kind of information does not need to be in the bill, because we trust medics so often in incredibly complicated situations. Stephen Kerr: I am not trying to introduce anything to the bill. Instead, I am seeking to understand, and I am simply asking a question about a severe form of moral dilemma that could be created depending on what those words mean. Even after the intervention from Carol Mochan, which I am grateful for, I am still none the wiser. That is another area of the bill in which there is some dubiety about what the application of the law would mean in any given situation. Again, I express my gratitude to Liam McArthur for accepting my amendment 220. I turn to amendment 222. The amendment addresses a different but equally important issue, which is democratic oversight.”
“I am sure that he would be the first to jump to his feet to claim that that would be the case if we were to do so in any other area of medicine. Stephen Kerr: I am not—[Interruption.] I am surprised by the way in which members are reacting to this serious matter. I am grateful to Liam McArthur for his intervention, but I am still not entirely clear what he means by that. I assume that he means that the medic would intervene to revive, resuscitate or help the person to survive. Carol Mochan: I worked in the health service for 16 years, and I know that there are other people in the room who have done the same or have family members who have done so. On many occasions, medics will come and speak to us about keeping or making somebody comfortable. In this instance, we must rely on the experience that doctors will have.”
“Therefore, I am willing to give way if he would please enlighten the chamber—and especially me—about what the words “make the patient comfortable” mean in that situation. Will he accept my invitation and make an intervention? Liam McArthur: I gave Stephen Kerr a response to the question that he asked. There are standard procedures for medics to use their training and experience in the circumstances that they are presented with to make the patient comfortable. That is what would be expected in those circumstances. If there is any further guidance that needs to be adapted as a result of a change in the law, I am sure that that will happen. However, to try to put things in the bill for the circumstances that Stephen Kerr is describing would be inappropriate.”
“However, I think that I am quoting Liam McArthur when I say that he said that he would expect them to “make the patient comfortable”. I am not entirely clear what those words might mean in that situation. I gave him a couple of options: one is to revive and help the person in a moment of extreme distress, and the other is to enable the completion of the function of the administration of the drug, which would in effect be a form—if not the deed—of euthanasia. I would be happy to give way to Liam McArthur, because I think that members would welcome—I certainly would—some expansion on what he meant when he spoke about making the patient “comfortable”, because that is a crucial issue. I am grateful that Liam McArthur accepted my amendment 220, but the question that I asked him during his speech remains unanswered.”
“Amendment 220 would therefore require that a suitably qualified professional remain physically present with the patient from the moment that the substance is taken until death occurs or until it is clear that the substance has not been fully used and the person is no longer at risk. That is the point that I feel leaves us in an uncomfortable place, and it has to do with the use of the word “comfortable”. I asked Liam McArthur, as the member in charge, what the bill would expect of a healthcare professional in the situation that I am describing— that is, if the self-administration of the substance did not work and it was clear that things had gone wrong. I would welcome a further intervention from him to answer this point in more detail, because it merits more detail.”
“The question that we must therefore ask ourselves is quite simple: what happens if something goes wrong? Earlier, I intervened on the member in charge of the bill to ask him that very question, because dying is not always predictable. Sue Webber made that point very well in her contribution to the debate on this group of amendments. Complications and distress can arise. What is expected to be swift can become prolonged or, indeed, terribly frightening. In those circumstances, it cannot be right that the person who is undergoing that process could be left without a trained professional present.”
“We are not speaking theoretically now; we are concerning ourselves with what actually happens in real rooms with real people at the most vulnerable moment of their lives. Amendment 220 addresses what I believe is a serious and potentially dangerous flaw in the bill as drafted. As it stands, a practitioner could leave the room immediately after the ingestion of the approved substance. In other words, at the very moment when a patient’s life is ending, medical supervision could be withdrawn. That should give every member pause. By definition, the bill takes Scotland into territory that we have never entered before. I already mentioned the weighty nature of what we are contemplating. Our medical system has never permitted the administration of lethal medication in this way.”
“I therefore reiterate the point. Has it ever happened before that a Government minister has not attended stage 2 proceedings on a bill? It would be interesting if the Government could provide that information tonight or throughout the remaining course of the stage 3 process. Stephen Kerr: I am grateful to Douglas Ross for posing that question. It is an entirely legitimate question—as, indeed, are all the questions that we have raised in the past 45 minutes or so, as we consider the stage 3 amendments to the bill. I think that we all agree that this is perhaps the weightiest piece of legislation that the Parliament has considered in its existence. We are talking about matters of life and death. I will turn to the practical reality of how the law might operate at the moment that a life is brought to an end.”
“The Government was, again, neutral on it, but the minister attended at stage 2 in order to guide members on their amendments. With a bill such as this, it is clear that we would at least expect a Government minister to be at committee at stage 2 in order to raise the points that the minister now wants to raise at stage 3 of the process. Stephen Kerr: I am grateful to Miles Briggs for his intervention. I will give way to Douglas Ross. Douglas Ross: I wish simply to reiterate that point with another example. Daniel Johnson recently had a member’s bill pass through the Education, Children and Young People Committee. It was a member’s bill, so it was not Jenny Gilruth’s bill, and she had no amendments to it, which is the exact same scenario that Neil Gray is in with this bill, but Jenny Gilruth came to committee at stage 2.”
“Stephen Kerr: I think that that was an intervention on me, but I am happy to give way to Neil Gray if he wishes to respond to that. Neil Gray: This is not my bill. I did not have amendments at stage 2. I did not have commentary to make. It is the responsibility of the member in charge of the bill and members of the committee to manage the bill at stage 2, not my responsibility. Stephen Kerr: I am happy to give way to Miles Briggs again. Miles Briggs: It is an important point. I fully respect—and I think that it is important—that the Government is neutral on this bill. However, it is not neutral on the legal competences of the bill, and it should have been advising on those. My colleague Liz Smith’s Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill recently passed through Parliament.”
“Neil Gray: Given the commentary that the Government provided at stage 2, we were well aware of the legislative competence issues of the amendments that were passed at that stage, which, as the Deputy First Minister said, took the bill further beyond competence. Stephen Kerr: I am not attempting to doubt either the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care or the First Minister. My point was about the Parliament’s legal advisers. Where are they in this to give us the steer that we need? This is not the first time that this issue has been raised. Miles Briggs: I thank the cabinet secretary for taking my intervention, because it is on an important aspect. Perhaps he can tell me at what point during the history of the Scottish Parliament a Government minister has not attended stage 2 proceedings.”
“I understand that the Presiding Officer has already clarified this point: the process is that a view is taken on competence at the time when a bill comes to the Parliament, and, thereafter, the Presiding Officer does not take a view on subsequent stages of the bill. Stephen Kerr: I completely accept that point, and I accepted it from the Presiding Officer herself when she was in the chair a few moments ago. I just wanted to make this point, although it has become something more now: when the Deputy First Minister said that the bill was even more incompetent after stage 2, that led me to wonder where the legal advice that we in the Scottish Parliament depend on to provide good law is. I turn to my amendments in the group, which are amendments 220 and 222. Up to now, we have been discussing eligibility, safeguards and assessment.”
“Does Stephen Kerr not recognise that different groups of people can come to different conclusions on issues of legislative competence? Such a situation is not unusual. Stephen Kerr: From everything that the First Minister said—I am sure that Jamie Hepburn listened to him as carefully as I did—it seems that the issue was crystal clear in his mind. I simply wanted to take a second, which has now become more than a second, to say that I find it surprising that the Parliament’s lawyers allow us to spend so much time in consideration of a bill that is now clearly being seen as not competent, although it was when it was introduced. The Deputy Presiding Officer: Mr Kerr, I ask you to resume your seat for a wee second.”
“I hope that members across the chamber will support them. 19:45 Stephen Kerr: I will not delay in addressing the amendments in the group that are in my name except to say that I find it perplexing that the Parliament’s lawyers do not insist that a bill is competent when—[Interruption.] A cabinet secretary is saying, “Get over it.” That is what a cabinet secretary has to say. I take a few seconds to offer a thought, and I am told to get over it. As parliamentarians, we should all be concerned about the competence of the Scottish Parliament. If members of the Cabinet do not recognise that as an issue, it is perhaps not surprising that the Scottish Government has ended up in the Supreme Court so often over the past few years. Jamie Hepburn: I intervene to make a simple point.”
“I call Jackie Baillie to speak to amendment 10 and other amendments in the group. Jackie Baillie: Amendments 10 and 11 were lodged following constructive dialogue between Liam McArthur, the RCN and me. They are uncontentious, sensible and practical, so I invite the chamber to support them. They would require that, where an authorised health professional is a registered nurse, they be accompanied by the co- ordinating doctor or another authorised health professional who is a doctor for all stages of the process where an individual is provided with assistance. That is to ensure consistency. Members may recall that an amendment was agreed to at stage 2 to ensure that nurses, when acting as authorised health professionals, would not work alone. Amendments 10 and 11 would bring everything into line.”
“The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a division. Members should cast their votes now. The vote is closed.”