Pauline McNeill
Scottish Labour · Scotland
“Does she welcome what I am setting out to do in providing an expansion in GPS technology for bail management and home detention curfew, in order to give reassurance around the community management of offenders? Pauline McNeill: Yes, I do. I would like an early indication of additional investment in GPS technology.”
“I have consistently raised my concerns about prisoners not being guaranteed time out of their cells, and a number of prisoners have written to me, as a criminal justice spokesperson, because they cannot get access to the rehabilitation programmes that it is vital for them to do in order to be considered for release back into the community…”
“Scottish Labour welcomes the opportunity to have an early discussion on the state of the Scottish prison system. There is a lot in the amendments from the other parties with which we agree. We have just heard a considerable announcement. I will address some of it, albeit briefly.”
“The Cabinet Secretary for Justice has just taken up his post, and I respect the fact that he is at least attempting to put some bold proposals out there. I will address some of them briefly. Changing the definition of long-term sentences from more than four years to more than five years has serious implications.”
“What investment is the Scottish Government prepared to make to commit in the longer term to robust alternatives, such as GPS monitoring, which is referred to in the Scottish Labour amendment, to ensure that communities are safe? I do not mind saying that I have had this conversation with many previous cabinet secretaries.”
“On the release of long-term prisoners at 60 per cent or two thirds of their sentence, when I was not in Parliament, one of the big issues around the release of long-term prisoners was that the public thought that a prisoner’s sentence would be served in jail, and nobody could really follow the number of years that they would spend there.”
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Every one of 391 lines we hold for Pauline McNeill, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 8 of 8.
“To that extent, I agree with the cabinet secretary and assure her that Scottish Labour thinks that this is a matter on which there should be cross-party working. I have heard this many times, but one reason for community payback orders not being used as much as they should be is that judges do not seem to have the confidence in some of the programmes or in the ability of the convicted person to complete them. We need to improve the suitability of community payback orders, particularly for those with addictions and those who lead chaotic lives. The Criminal Justice Committee heard as much fairly recently, when Karyn McCluskey, the chief executive of Community Justice Scotland, pointed out that “We must imprison those whom we are afraid of, and not those we are mad at.”
“If we want to send fewer people to prison, where that is appropriate, and relieve our bulging prison estate, it is important that we run our prisons better from within. The point about the importance of being able to work with offenders has been rehearsed many times. It is all about the work that we do with them, about their conditions in prison and about staff being given an opportunity to do the job that they were employed to do inside the prison. Research suggests that community sentencing can have a positive effect on both the chances of the perpetrator reoffending and the public purse. What is crucial in those cases is that it makes sense to use it and that it has the confidence of the public and the judiciary—we all know that. It is not an easy fix, and it requires a serious focus to make it work.”
“Our prisons are bursting at the seams and we are being forced to release prisoners early, causing deep public concern. We have some of the highest levels of incarceration in Europe, so it is clear that one of the answers to this situation is to focus on sentencing. It is also obvious that, to do so, we have to give the courts serious alternatives to imprisonment. I do not know how many times that that has been said in the chamber, but it is a failure of SNP justice management that we have not made progress in that area. For example, the number of community payback orders has slumped over the past decade. In 2014-15, there were more than 19,000 orders, but nearly 10 years later, that figure is just over 15,000. To me, it seems extraordinary that we are going backwards.”
“On a point of order, Presiding Officer. My device would not connect at all. I would have voted no. The Presiding Officer: Thank you, Ms McNeill. We will ensure that your vote is recorded.”
“To ask the Scottish Government how it plans to encourage the prescription of medicinal cannabis on the national health service for the relief of chronic pain. (S6O-04323)”
“We cannot be bystanders where we see the hatred of others. I will not stand by when I see what is happening to the Palestinians in Gaza. In my opinion there is a genocide taking place there, but let the courts and the law decide whether it is or is not. Whether it is about Gaza, Bosnia or Cambodia—it is really important that Jackson Carlaw mentioned it—as human beings and as politicians, we cannot be bystanders. We need to call out what we see, without prejudice. I am proud to be part of the debate, and I again thank Jackson Carlaw for securing it. 18:14”
“That is the vital question for any person who is interested in ensuring that it will never happen again. We must educate every child about the sad facts—no generation must be left out. They remind us that we must have robust policies for tackling hatred and prejudice against any group in society. Antisemitism, as the survivors have said, is far from having disappeared. There are fewer Holocaust survivors each year when we mark this anniversary: soon, there will be none. The generations who live on and who know, and politicians like us, must ensure that it is never forgotten. Andy Maciver was on the trip with me, and he wrote a great article headed “Moderates must rise to the challenges of populist nationalism”. It was something that only Andy Maciver could write, and it is a brilliant article.”
“Visitors are asked not to photograph them because those are people’s personal belongings, with their personal stories of how they arrived in that dreadful place. That part of it all should remain personal. Camp commandant Rudolf Höss expanded Auschwitz to construct a second camp at Birkenau for industrial murder. As others have said, if you have seen the memorial to those who died at Birkenau, you will notice that behind the camp there are houses, which were there at the time, in the 1940s. Unfortunately, people knew, and they looked on as the concentration camps murdered Jewish people and others. The testimonies of survivors who escaped is vital, because without them we would not begin to get our heads around the horror of what happened. How could it happen at all?”
“Across German-occupied Europe, 6 million Jews were murdered for being Jewish, by an ideology that was based on hatred and which began its journey in a democratic country. It is difficult to read and learn about humanity’s worst period in history and the evil that humankind is capable of, but it is important that we remember it. I visited Auschwitz-Birkenau on the very last day of 2018. No amount of reading prepares a person for the sheer scale and horror of the camp, but it is something that I think everyone should do and face. When people arrive there they are asked by the guide not to take photographs in certain areas: one such area has people’s personal effects there, including shoes and suitcases.”
“I spoke to mothers whose sons and brothers had been murdered, and I was alarmed when they described how, today, the denial of that genocide still exists. The Sarajevo hills are, for those who are old enough to remember, better known for the winter Olympics and Torvill and Dean. Eyes were closed when Serbs put Bosniak neighbours into concentration camps—and that was not that long ago. The motion notes the 80th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz. It will be appreciated that there were many other concentration camps, as members have mentioned, including Treblinka in Poland, where around 800,000 people died, and Belzec, where 600,000 died. While waiting to be sent to their death, many people starved, died of disease or were worked to death. It is unbelievable that those horrific events took place a relatively short time ago.”
“Holocaust memorial day is without parallel in importance. I commend Jackson Carlaw for his leadership in that regard. Through his eloquent speeches—not only today, but every time I have heard him—he has been very important and influential. The work that he has done on Holocaust remembrance is to be commended. The theme of Holocaust remembrance day is dignity, human rights and the importance of collective action to prevent the spread of hatred and of denial of the Holocaust. In his opening speech, Jackson Carlaw talked about other genocides, including in Bosnia. That gives me the opportunity, as others have done, to mention my visit to Srebrenica at the tail end of last year. In Bosnia, Serb nationalism of the past remains omnipresent. The genocide against the Muslim Bosniaks happened in the 1990s.”
“The chairman of the BMA, Dr Iain Kennedy, said: “At this stage, we still lack the detail and comprehensive vision needed to make any plan a reality.” The Government needs to convince the general public not only that it has a plan but that people can have confidence in the detail of that plan and in the 800 GPs that it says that it will deliver to transfer the NHS that people love so dearly. 16:11”
“The short-term and piecemeal approach to investment and workforce planning has meant that NHS Scotland has paid a heavy price, and it will take more than money to turn things around. In a fresh report, Audit Scotland has said that the Government has “No clear plan” for NHS reform, while “commitments to reducing waiting times have not been met” and “the number of people remaining in hospital because their discharge has been delayed is the highest on record”. I emphasise that point.”
“They have asked the Government to help them to reform the system. They are willing to do more to broaden out the primary care services that are the cornerstone of our NHS. If they are given the power and resources to do it, they will. GPs are natural problem-solvers. A study in the British Journal of General Practice shows that GPs can reduce mortality by up to 30 per cent if people get to see their own GP regularly. That speaks for itself. However, reform seems stagnant. There is really no excuse for not planning a decade ago for some of this. We might not have predicted a pandemic—albeit that some people did—but we knew that there was an ageing population and a mental health crisis.”
“It is unbelievable how many people who would never have dreamed of using private healthcare are now being forced to use their life savings to put their health first. However, many other people cannot do that. For basic operations such as hip operations and knee replacements, people are now anxious about calling their GP for a simple appointment. When people are ill, they have to go through the 8.30 phone queue and they have deep anxiety when the countdown starts. That must change. Scottish Labour would openly say that it is something on which we will work with the Government, but it must change and there must be reform. Although support for the NHS remains unwaveringly high, satisfaction levels with NHS performance are at a record low. GPs themselves are crying out for reform.”
“People now worry about the times when they might be ill and need acute care, an ambulance or a life- changing operation, because, all the time, in their own communities, they witness ambulances that cannot get patients into hospitals when they have rushed to get there. Public confidence in our NHS is diminishing. It is not the fault of the dedicated workforce who have worked tirelessly in the hardest of circumstances. Alex Cole-Hamilton: Pauline McNeill mentioned ambulances stacking up outside A and E, unable to discharge their patients. Does she recognise that that is not a deficiency of emergency care but a symptom of the interruption in flow caused by bed blocking as a result of there being no social care in our communities? Pauline McNeill: I have no difficulty agreeing with Alex Cole-Hamilton’s point.”
“We have heard that the Scottish Government is going to overhaul NHS waiting times and improve access to GPs, but it has already been criticised widely for recycling old pledges. That announcement is an admission that we cannot go on like this: it is the same old promises from a tired Government, with no detail. It is not a detailed plan for progress or reform. We have heard other members talk about how, every day, patients are failed at every level of care, because the Government did not plan effectively for known challenges. In its 17 years in power, it has known about a lot of them.”
“Draft Budget 2025-26 (Access to Justice) 7.”
“Will the cabinet secretary clarify the capacity of the new HMP Glasgow? The Criminal Justice Committee was told that it is 1,344. His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Prisons for Scotland’s most recent annual report stated that, although the rising prison population remains a concern across the Scottish Prison Service estate, it has a particular impact on HMP Barlinnie, which has a capacity of 1,400. Is it planned that the new HMP Glasgow will have surge capacity built into its design? What will that look like? Angela Constance: I confirm that the design of the new HMP Glasgow is for a capacity of 1,344. It will have a range of facilities, such as a purpose- built additional care unit and segregation units. Where surge capacity is needed in an estate can vary at any point. I will get back to Pauline McNeill on the detail of that.”
“I was very clear that I believe that the children in question have been failed. This is an abhorrent case. I am doing my best, and everyone in Government is doing their best, to ensure that nothing like it ever happens again. At the moment, I do not have the details on the independent review that is being set up. As I have already said, we are still waiting for an independent reviewer to be appointed. I will be more than happy to share details of that with the member once they are available, and to discuss any further queries that she might have.”
“The minister has said that there is to be an independently led case review, but surely we must have some answers now and not in a year’s time. Perhaps she could clarify the timescale. How could the people who were protecting the children in question, who were under 13, have missed the signs of the deep levels of abuse that were taking place in a flat when there were children screaming and there were comings and goings? Surely the minister is not satisfied with simply leaving it to a case-led review to give us some answers to that key question. I ask the minister whether anything can be done to give us some preliminary answers now. If we are expected to wait longer than that, I do not see how the minister can say that she is satisfied that all Scotland’s children are in fact protected. Natalie Don-Innes: I do not believe that I said that.”
“That is particularly acute when there is a death in custody. I will look at Pauline McNeill’s suggestion about the timing of legal aid support. As I hope that I have indicated to Liam Kerr and other members, there is, indeed, work—of breadth and depth—to do to ensure that we deliver on the promises that we have made today.”
“Angela Constance: I very much embrace the point that Pauline McNeill articulated—that today should be a turning point not just for those in the care of the Scottish Prison Service, but in what more we need to do to prevent people from going to prison in the first place. As Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs, I do not demur for one moment from the recommendations and the changes that now require to be made in the prison service. My challenge to other Government colleagues and colleagues across the political spectrum is that we also have to look at what happens to people and what their life experiences are before they have any contact with the criminal justice system. When we do, we quite often see a litany of failures for the most vulnerable in our society. I very much want to see equality of arms.”
“The unfettered access to information following a death in custody that families were promised by His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Prisons for Scotland in its recommendations is meaningless, unless those families have rights to their own representation. I have one specific question. Will the cabinet secretary commit to legal aid support for all families in the first 24 hours following a death in custody so that they have a chance against the system when it comes to asking immediate questions about the circumstances of the death of their loved one? Families tell me that they feel closed out of the system during the first period after a death in custody, and such a move would go a long way to making sure that we have whole- system change.”
“I thank the cabinet secretary for advance sight of the statement, which I found helpful. This must be a turning point for Scotland’s prisons. Our system lacks accountability and transparency when there are deaths in custody. Sadly, there have been more deaths since the tragic and preventable deaths of Katie Allan and William Lindsay Brown. Now is the time to adopt all the recommendations, which the Government has done, and to go beyond them and use them as the basis for whole-system change. For too long, the prison system, which we trust to look after people on behalf of the state, has let down families. They have been immediately shut out of a system whose first response is to defend its own interests. Communication to families immediately after the death of their loved one has been poor.”
“To ask the First Minister whether the Scottish Government plans to make creating sexually explicit “deepfake” images and videos a crime. (S6F-03730)”
“As I said when we considered the grouping on vetting, my only remaining concern relates to the fact that we need to be clear, in principle, that there should be a right of correction or appeal. I took a lot from what the cabinet secretary said about the discussions that we expect to take place between the police organisations and representatives of the police unions and staff. I hope that, in those discussions, we can thrash out something that everyone feels is a fair conclusion. 16:59”
“I will not reiterate what I said earlier about the vetting provisions that apply to police officers and staff, but I emphasise the fact that we agreed in our stage 1 report to the chief constable having the power to dismiss officers and staff who do not maintain their vetting before we had sight of the detail of the vetting provisions. Who knows what view we might otherwise have taken of that power? Because the chief constable now has that power under the new vetting provisions, we need to be clear that there is balance and fairness in the system. It is important that the Government accepted my amendment 17 on written reasons, because it will provide substantial fairness for police officers who think that they should get to know why their vetting has been refused.”
“I had a good session with Lady Elish Angiolini about the issue, which I think is contained in the stage 1 report, and I hope we have come to a conclusion on it. The criminal allegations against the police division in the Crown Office—known as CAAPD— which is responsible for the investigation of criminal complaints, has said that it expects to “progress and conclude 75 per cent of the cases that are reported to us within six months”.—[Official Report, Criminal Justice Committee, 15 May 2024; c 42] Let us see whether that happens. Although we have introduced new provision to pursue officers after they have left the service, I fully supported Sharon Dowey’s important amendments to ensure that the timescale for doing so is not completely open ended.”
“I do not know whether the public will notice any real difference in the handling of complaints, nor will the bill allow any new avenues for victims’ families to raise concerns about police inquiries. I have raised the specific question of the Emma Caldwell inquiry; if a family had some concerns about the avenue being pursued by the police, there is not really a route for that. It is pretty clear that there is a lot of work to be done. The introduction of the barred list is an important aspect of the bill. It seems like a lifetime ago that the Criminal Justice Committee examined the issue of the length of time that cases involving police officers take to come to court. The committee did a good job of trying to thrash out why that was the case.”
“We could not have supported the bill if the Government had not corrected it. As early as this morning, we heard again from the PIRC, who reiterated that the financial implications of legislative decisions are important to consider. The PIRC remains opposed to taking on the responsibility of presenting cases against senior officers, not just from a financial point of view but in terms of the process itself, because they do not think that they should be “judge and jury”. There are still things in the bill that are problematic, but because there are elements that we support, we will support it this evening. I hope that we can get a full update later in this session of Parliament on how it is proceeding. One of the biggest issues with the bill is that it is not transformative in the way that the public might have liked.”
“The duty is different to following any other duty or order; it is fundamentally of a more serious nature. Some witnesses advised caution on whether the duty of candour will extend in circumstances in which officers are off duty, but during the legislative process it has been made clear that it will do. However, that will not cut across the right of an accused person, whether they are a police officer or a member of police staff, not to self-incriminate in criminal inquiries. It is fair to put on the record that the Scottish Police Federation’s view was that a duty was not necessary as, in any case, 99.9 per cent of officers co-operate when asked to do so during the course of any inquiries. One of the critical matters for both the Criminal Justice Committee and Scottish Labour was the financial memorandum.”
“The bill cannot be viewed in isolation and is only part of a wider piece of work that must be done to improve police complaints and conduct systems. The code of ethics and the duty of candour will not have any particular legal effect, but they set out the expectations. There was quite a lot of debate on those, particularly from victims organisations such as Victim Support Scotland, which wants the code to be more transparent and publicly available, and wants there to be consequences of breaches. However, we are clear that the code of ethics should be robust and reflect the challenges of modern policing. In its report, the committee asked to be able to review the draft code. Separately from that, there is the duty of candour, which is a standard requirement to assist in investigations.”
“Scottish Labour believes that we must act to ensure the highest standards in our police force. The power held by police officers and police organisations requires the right structures and standards to ensure that we can have confidence in our policing. Measures in the bill seek to introduce robust mechanisms to address unacceptable conduct and behaviours of a minority of police officers and staff. I, too, thank all the witnesses and the victims who spoke up and gave the Criminal Justice Committee first-hand evidence of how police processes can impact on their lives. I also thank my colleagues on the committee, the bill team and our clerks, who worked very hard to produce a constructive stage 1 report.”
“The Criminal Justice Committee’s stage 1 report refers, on page 56, to a letter from the cabinet secretary in which she said that she was “exploring the legislative basis for vetting, particularly in the context of the Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) Scotland Bill”. The stage 1 report also refers to the “HMICS Assurance review of vetting policy and procedures within Police Scotland” report, which said: “The Scottish Government should place into legislation the requirement for all Police Scotland officers and staff to obtain and maintain a minimum standard of vetting ... and the provision for the Chief Constable to dispense with the service of an officer or staff member who cannot maintain suitable vetting”.”
“HM Inspectorate of Constabulary in Scotland conducted a review of vetting policy and procedures in Police Scotland in 2023, and those new vetting provisions were inserted in the bill at stage 2 without adequate consultation with those with an interest, such as the Scottish Police Federation, staff trade unions and the Association of Scottish Police Superintendents. My amendments in the group seek to delete the vetting provisions, but I make it clear that I am probing the Government on the issue and inviting it to respond, particularly with regard to the lack of scrutiny of the provisions. That is my intention. The Government indicated at stage 1 that it was considering putting vetting on a statutory footing.”
“This group contains a number of amendments, so I will try to be concise and clear. I believe that we require a proper vetting process that will give the public confidence in policing and in Police Scotland officers, and Scottish Labour is clear that we support the vetting provisions and their modernisation. Police Scotland carries out checks and manages all levels of police vetting. It has an administrative role in managing national security vetting, with the process being undertaken on Police Scotland’s behalf by the Scottish Government. Currently, vetting includes recruitment vetting, which is the minimum level that is required for applications from all those who are seeking appointment as police officers or employment as members of staff in Police Scotland; management vetting; and vetting for a designated post.”
“I agreed that that was extremely concerning, and I have laid out in my statement the actions that were taken to ensure that that situation did not continue. We have increased capacity. If the situation at St Mary’s Kenmure continues to improve, the capacity will continue to increase. In the year-to-year data, we have seen reductions in the numbers in secure care, regardless of the changes in legislation in the past year. I do not want to deal with hypotheticals; I want to deal with the situation as it is now, and I have laid out the action that the Scottish Government is taking in relation to that.”
“It is concerning that the minister said in her statement that the Government has not yet established “a clear agreement on the minimum vacant secure care capacity requirements for Scotland ... at any given time”. Given that there has been a change in the law, which many have welcomed, I ask the minister to be clear on what will happen to a young offender who previously would have been in Polmont if, on the day of sentencing, they are required to go to a secure place but none is available. Can I have the minister’s cast-iron assurance that that young offender will remain in Scotland? What will happen in that situation? Natalie Don-Innes: Ms McNeill is dealing with hypotheticals. Before Christmas, we were in a situation in which we had one place in secure care.”
“Natalie Don-Innes: As I made clear in my previous answer, the inquiry is independent. As Pauline McNeill implied, it is the responsibility of its chair, Lady Smith, to decide on what exactly the inquiry examines. I did not catch the member’s full question, but I believe that it alluded to support for victims of such behaviour. I have already laid out some of the actions that the Scottish Government is taking to support victims and to look at what more action can be taken to do that. I also draw the member’s attention to our on-going investment and commitment to the bairns’ hoose model, which is transforming victims’ access to the services that they need. I am happy to pick up those points in further discussions with the member.”
“Scotland has had its own sexual abuse scandals involving children. One well-reported case, operation planet, was an investigation into the alleged abuse of young boys recruited for sex work, many of whom were in care. That case is not included in the inquiry. I acknowledge the presence of the First Minister, John Swinney, who has been personally dedicated, over many years, to addressing the issue of historical child sex abuse. I wrote to Lady Smith last year to ask for the inclusion of such abuse cases involving children in care that are currently not included. I hope to have the minister’s support for that. I also ask the minister to confirm that the continuing commitment to invest in the survivors of child abuse will give practical support to those adults who have survived child sex abuse.”