Murdo Fraser
Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party · Scotland
“This has been quite a lively debate so far. I might take a slightly more sympathetic approach to Reform than other colleagues who have spoken. To be fair to Reform members, they have been on a steep learning curve in relation to how they approach debates in the Parliament.”
“After all the promises that were made about Reform members coming in to shake this place up, they cannot even get the basics right. If these are the foxes in the hen house, the chickens will be sleeping pretty safely tonight. That seems reflected in Reform’s most recent electoral performances.”
“I will make what I hope is a constructive suggestion, which is that it would be more helpful to have a debate on any one of those topics to allow us time to discuss the issues in detail. We will all be here for another five years, so Angela Ross should not fire all her bullets at once.”
“Murdo Fraser: I will give way in a second. The only things that have been left out are the NHS and justice. Virtually every topic in the remit of the Parliament is covered in the motion, as are some topics that are not in the remit of the Parliament.”
“Most significantly of all, we had a superb Conservative victory in the Aberdeen South constituency, with my good friend Douglas Lumsden winning just shy of 50 per cent of the vote—a massive swing from the SNP. Reform received just 2,478 votes, or 8.6 per cent of the total.”
“He will know that there is a necessity in the case of individual judgments for those involved to consider whether there is any basis on which an appeal should be mounted in a particular case.”
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“We are continually being invited by the Deputy First Minister to be positive about the Scottish economy and to celebrate success stories— indeed, we just heard that from her colleague, the finance secretary. I regard it as one of my purposes in life to try to make the Deputy First Minister happy. [Laughter.] That is why, this afternoon, we are going to do just as she wants and talk about the success and strength of the Scottish economy and, in particular, our vital defence sector. I hope that she and her Scottish National Party colleagues will be as enthusiastic as we are about that vital industry for Scotland. Scotland’s defence sector provides a considerable contribution to our economy.”
“That support has helped to drive the very innovation that he is talking about, and many of those companies are at the forefront of developing cutting-edge technologies. Alongside our support for skills, ensuring that we have apprenticeships and are able to attract the right workforce to deliver against those priorities is absolutely critical.”
“Scotland has always prided itself on the strength of its world-beating defence sector, which offers high-quality, well-paid jobs and is at the cutting edge of innovation. The Deputy First Minister claims that the Government is pro-business. Against that backdrop, the refusal to support the new naval welding sector is inexplicable. Can we hear from the Deputy First Minister whether it is just bigotry and prejudice on the part of the Scottish National Party Government to refuse to support the naval welding sector—not a munitions project—that will produce high-quality jobs? What is the rational explanation for refusing to do so? Kate Forbes: The member seems to have taken no account of the figures that I put on the parliamentary record. Since the Government came to office, we have provided around £45 million in funding to defence companies.”
“Singapore is a country with a strong innovation ecosystem, significant investment in education and lifelong learning to help build a skilled and employable workforce, and a long-term strategy.”
“If the Scottish Government wants to encourage entrepreneurship and innovation, a really good starting point would be to listen to entrepreneurs, and Scotland has no more high-profile an example of a successful entrepreneur than Sir Tom Hunter. If the cabinet secretary has not read the report on how we might encourage economic growth that was published by the Hunter Foundation just a few weeks ago, I encourage her to do so. The Hunter Foundation and Oxford Economics together highlight the success of Singapore—a small economy with few natural resources that is, in many ways, in a much less privileged position than Scotland—as an example from which we could learn lessons.”
“On all those measures, Scotland lags behind, so we welcome any initiatives to improve the rate of entrepreneurship and the rate of business start-up, so that they at least match the levels that we see elsewhere in the UK. We know that there are particular sectors of society in which we have issues in encouraging people to start up a business. That is particularly the case with women and members of ethnic minority groups, as the Deputy First Minister acknowledged. I pay tribute to the work that Women’s Enterprise Scotland does in offering support, particularly mentoring and the promotion of role models for women who wish to set up and be involved in business.”
“The UK average is 996, so we are lagging far behind. That gap is particularly stark among the smallest businesses, where the figure is 738 per 10,000 adults for the UK but just 544 per 10,000 adults for Scotland. It is clear that we have a systemic issue whereby Scotland’s level of private sector business activity is lower than the UK average. According to last year’s Global Entrepreneurship Monitor report for Scotland, Scotland’s total early- stage entrepreneurial activity, which is known as the TEA rate, was the lowest in the UK nations in 2023. The overall TEA rate for the UK was 10.7, Scotland’s was 9.1, Wales’s was 11.5—it was doing very well—England’s was 10.1 and Northern Ireland’s was 9.7.”
“I welcome the fact that we are having another debate on the economy. We now have something of a trend of economy debates, which is a welcome departure from the previous state of affairs, when we would go for long periods without discussing Scotland’s economic performance. That is a good change on the part of the Government. Today’s focus on entrepreneurship and innovation is welcome, so I am delighted to be here. Before I come to what needs to be done, I want to start by looking at the Scottish Government’s track record, given that it has been in power in Scotland for some 18 years. The fact is that, throughout that period, Scotland’s business start- up rate has consistently lagged behind that of the UK as a whole. According to the latest figures, which are from 2024, Scotland has a business stock of 762 businesses per 10,000 adults.”
“If we are going to be proven wrong, we will at least be proven wrong on the basis of underexpectations rather than overexpectations. That, in turn, is attracting the involvement of new investors and scaling firms. Data from RSM Consulting shows that Scotland is the UK’s fastest-growing territory for the incorporation of new tech businesses. The same figures showed incorporations in London falling by 6 per cent.”
“A matter of months ago, I announced £2 million of investment in the skills and training required, and we have also invested in defence companies with regard to diversification. If the member wants any evidence of that, I refer him to previous debates in the Parliament in which members have accused us of making those investments in defence. Both sides cannot be right. There are straws in the wind that suggest that momentum will continue to build. Techscaler, which is where we incubate and grow Scotland’s most promising start-ups, is performing beyond expectations. Since its launch, members have raised £118 million; there is strong demand for services; and membership applications are accelerating. That suggests a stronger pipeline of high-growth founders than we had anticipated at the early stage.”
“Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention? Kate Forbes: I will, particularly if it is to congratulate those businesses. Murdo Fraser: I am very pleased to congratulate those businesses. As the cabinet secretary is talking about attracting investment, I wonder whether she will come on to talk about public sector investment. One of the most innovative sectors in the Scottish economy is defence, a sector that employs tens of thousands of people and which is growing. When is the Scottish Government going to revisit its short- sighted policy not to invest public funds in the fast- growing defence sector? Kate Forbes: Intentionally or otherwise, the member is distorting the Scottish Government’s position. The Scottish Government has a long- standing position of not using public money for munitions. Members: Oh! Kate Forbes: Just a minute.”
“I recognise that there have been difficult and challenging times for staff and students at the institution, but I point to the fact that UHI now has in place an interim acting principal who is highly respected and experienced, as well as a highly-regarded interim finance director. I am optimistic that things will progress from here.”
“Graeme Dey: On top slicing, as Murdo Fraser refers to it, he might or might not be aware of an extensive piece of work that has been conducted by UHI in conjunction with its constituent parts to look at a future long-term and sustainable model. I would like to think that Murdo Fraser is as committed as I am to UHI as a concept and to its long-term future. I recognise the issues that he describes, including the financial challenges at Perth college. The SFC and UHI have been working extensively and closely with the institution over a sustained period of time. I am happy to ask both institutions to engage with Murdo Fraser, if they have not done so already, to give him a fuller understanding of what that work has covered.”
“Murdo Fraser: UHI Perth plays a vital role in the economy and community of Perthshire, yet it faces serious financial challenges, with a £2 million deficit and a principal who has just stepped down following the collapse of air service training—a long-established aviation training arm—leading to staff redundancies and a loss of student places. The college is now having to consider scrapping degree courses. That is a crisis and it has been made worse by the top slicing of the college budget to fund the executive office functions of UHI in Inverness. What is the Scottish Government doing to help the college before it sees more redundancies and course closures?”
“To ask the Scottish Government what recent discussions it has had with UHI Perth in relation to its funding position. (S6O-04752) The Minister for Higher and Further Education; and Minister for Veterans (Graeme Dey): The Scottish Funding Council has statutory responsibility for oversight of higher and further education institutions in Scotland. Perth college is assigned to the University of the Highlands and Islands as the regional strategic body. Therefore, the SFC has been working with UHI and Perth college to address some of the issues, such as the interim appointments of senior staff.”
“I also think that I am right in saying that the Deputy First Minister leads on the city deal programme, but I am happy to share Murdo Fraser’s encouragement with her. If city deal projects are on the agenda for the next meetings that I have with relevant UK Government ministers, I will be happy to report back to Murdo Fraser at future portfolio question times. MalDent Project 5.”
“When the cabinet secretary next meets UK ministers, will he raise with them the opportunity to develop another tranche of city deal projects, as recommended in a recent report by the Economy and Fair Work Committee? I do not know whether the cabinet secretary has had the opportunity to visit the Perth museum, to which I paid another visit a couple of weeks ago. It is a tremendous project, with visitor numbers now substantially exceeding projections. It is funded through the Tay cities deal, and there will be opportunity to have many more such cultural projects in future if a new tranche can be provided. Angus Robertson: I think that I am right in saying that the Perth museum has been shortlisted for an award, which I am sure all of us would welcome, and I look forward to taking up the member’s invitation and going.”
“To ask the Scottish Government what action it is taking to address the reported concerns of stakeholder organisations within the muirburn code working group regarding the commencement and practicalities of muirburn licensing. (S6O- 04704)”
“The point that we are making—which I think that Murdo Fraser also hears from businesses—is about a tailored approach. Particular sectors have repeatedly called for a tailored migration solution—soft fruits was one obvious sector, in the aftermath of Brexit—so that businesses and industry can recruit individuals to meet specific needs. They are currently restricted in doing so because of salary thresholds or other measures that are imposed by the”
“Over the past few years, net inward migration to the United Kingdom has been at record levels. Contrary to expectations, it has more than doubled since Brexit. However, relatively few of those new migrants come to settle in Scotland compared with other parts of the United Kingdom. Why does the Deputy First Minister believe that to be the case? Kate Forbes: The figures show that payrolled employments of non-European Union nationals in Scotland have been rising since 2020. When it comes to tax rates, the most recent data from His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs shows that, across different tax thresholds, we continue to see, on average, just over 4,000 more people moving in than leaving. That demonstrates that Scotland is an attractive place to work.”
“To ask the Scottish Government what recent discussions it has had with Police Scotland in relation to its policy on the recording of non- crime hate incidents. (S6O-04650)”
“This year, we have been able to make a massive step change with the introduction of multi-annual funding, which directly and indirectly impacts on a lot of venues. I have no doubt that there are other issues that should be considered and I am content to consider them. Murdo Fraser has made a number of suggestions that would entail more Government spending. I note, without wanting to be too prickly on the subject, that he voted against the record rise in spending for culture in Scotland. Nevertheless, I will give him another chance. If he has suggestions about financial interventions and where the money can be found, I would be happy to look at those. Live Borders 2.”
“Music venues, particularly larger ones, are under unprecedented financial pressure at present. I know that the Music Venue Trust is writing to the cabinet secretary on the rates issue, although he might not have received that letter yet. If the Scottish Government is not prepared to reconsider its stance on business rates, what additional support can it give to the sector, which is being squeezed in a difficult way? Angus Robertson: I will look closely at the letter that is being sent on the subject, which is one that I take seriously. Murdo Fraser knows that, as long as I have been in office, I have been committed to changing the foundations of the way in which the culture sector is supported financially in Scotland.”
“As parliamentarians, we can choose to prioritise and properly fund hospices and palliative care to ensure that everyone can have a good death. That is a far better option than the one that is before us today, and it ensures that we are not sacrificing the rights of the weak and the vulnerable. I do not believe that the bill can be improved in such a way as to eliminate that threat. Passing it is simply too great a risk. Today, I urge everyone here to oppose the bill and instead press for better palliative care as the answer. 16:24”
“Our solemn duty as parliamentarians is not to listen to the loudest, most articulate and most empowered voices or the best-funded and slickest campaigns. Our duty is to be a voice for the voiceless: the weak, vulnerable, excluded and those who have no one else to speak up for them. They are the ones who rely on us to be their sword and shield, and we should not fail them. There is an alternative, as we have heard this afternoon. I have watched close family members die in the care of excellent palliative care medical staff, and I cannot praise enough the quality of care in hospices across Scotland. Those family members have had good deaths, which is not everyone’s experience, but it could be and should be. The only thing that prevents that from happening is us here.”
“However, the difficulty for us as parliamentarians here is that we cannot pass laws that apply only to those who have agency and are articulate and well-informed. Any laws that we pass have to apply to everyone, which includes the weak, the vulnerable and those who might be susceptible to coercion, whether it is passive or active. In essence, we are being asked to agree to give one group of individuals a new set of rights that can only be granted to them if we create risk for a second set, which includes some of the weakest and most vulnerable people in our society. That is too high a price for us to pay, even though I have huge sympathy for those who want to have greater control over their lives at the end.”
“Let us not be in any doubt about the agenda of some of the people who are pushing for reform. If anybody thinks that the day after the bill is passed—however tightly defined it might be—that campaign group will pack up its bags and stop campaigning for more law relaxations, I am afraid that they are likely to be very mistaken. The second thing that has struck me about those who have come to me in support of the bill is that, in most cases, they are articulate, well- informed, strong-minded individuals who are used to having agency in all aspects of their lives. Understandably, they want to have agency when it comes to the end of their lives. From my own personal, political and philosophical outlook, I find that a very persuasive argument.”
“Once legislation for assisted dying exists, there will always be hard cases that make the argument for it to be expanded. Daniel Johnson: In a sense, I understand the member’s point about the distinction. However, look at the case of Oregon, which has had legislation for 30 years but has not moved beyond terminal illness. Likewise, Switzerland, which has had similar legislation since the 1940s, has “terminal illness” as the criterion. Those jurisdictions have not seen the expansion that the member contends is inevitable. Murdo Fraser: We simply do not know what will happen if we legislate—that is the risk that is before us. My other point is that we should not forget that Dignity in Dying, the campaign group that is behind the bill, was called the Voluntary Euthanasia Society until 2006.”
“In some cases, those who have spoken to me recognise that and are quite explicit that they see the bill’s passing as only the first step, and as the opening of the door to more widely available assisted dying than we are currently legislating for. That is the evidence that we need that the “slippery slope”, which was just referred to by Marie McNair and is so clearly identified in the excellent Health, Social Care and Sport Committee report, is real. If we pass the bill and give one strictly defined set of individuals a right in law to assisted dying, there is, in principle, no argument against then extending that to include others. It simply becomes a question of categories. That is precisely what we have seen in many other jurisdictions, most notably Canada.”
“I, too, have received a huge volume of correspondence on the issue—indeed, correspondence is still coming in during the debate. I have also met constituents with strong views on both sides of the argument and with powerful and moving personal stories to tell. Two things have struck me in particular about those who have come to me in support of the legislation, based on their experiences with close family members and friends. First, in many such cases, the circumstances that they outline, in which they watched a loved one die, relate to individuals who would not be eligible for assisted dying under the bill that is before us, because they would fall outwith the definition of terminal illness that is specified in it.”
“It creates wealth, it reduces poverty, it supports household incomes and it provides the tax revenues to fund the public services that we all rely on.”
“I start by reminding members of my entry in the register of members’ interests in relation to the income that I derive from property rental and my connection with the Scotch Whisky Association. The programme for government that was announced yesterday was a real opportunity for the Scottish Government to put growth back at the heart of the political agenda. For years, in coalition with the anti-growth Green Party, it did not even want to mention the subject. Fortunately, it is now at least prepared to talk about growth, although there is a huge mismatch between the rhetoric and the actual delivery. We should all agree that growth is important. Growth is what delivers the ability to solve the nation’s problems.”
“What more is the Scottish Government going to do to make that happen? Jim Fairlie: Murdo Fraser raises a very good point. As a result of the Good Food Nation (Scotland) Act 2022, good food nation plans are now in the process of being created, and I very much hope that local authorities will take those plans and work with local communities on aspects such as purchasing local food, including venison— as we know, there is a deer management issue in Scotland right now. If we can get all those people together and talking about how we can make that work, that would be very positive, and it is something that we should be doing.”
“That is why we continue to provide the most generous package of support in the UK, investing around £660 million in agriculture support, and why, this year, we introduced the future farming investment scheme, providing £14 million to invest in business efficiencies to benefit nature and climate. Murdo Fraser: I thank the minister for his response—perhaps he can tell us when that financial support plan will actually be published, because we are still waiting for it. I also want to raise an issue that was raised with me last night at the NFU Scotland parliamentary reception, which I know that the minister attended. Farmers are concerned about the issue of public procurement and the need to have healthy, home- grown, locally produced food on the menu in schools and hospitals.”
“To ask the Scottish Government what its response is to figures showing that farm incomes are at a five-year low. (S6O-04613) Jim Fairlie: We know that farmers very much appreciate the Scottish Government’s commitment to maintaining direct payments as we transition from the common agricultural policy, recognising the stability that that gives to the sector. That is in stark contrast to the current and previous United Kingdom Governments. We note the results of the Scottish farm business income report, which demonstrates the volatility of the sector, thereby reinforcing that our approach is the correct one.”
“Neurodevelopmental Assessment Services (Report on Tests of Change) 5.”
“One of the key issues that is holding back economic growth is the high cost of energy, which we have already discussed today. Last year, the Scottish Government was very enthusiastic about the idea of zonal pricing of electricity. Is that still its view? The First Minister: There has to be a careful assessment of the impact of zonal pricing on a variety of factors. For example, will it bring down energy prices for householders, which is the absolutely critical and urgent priority? Will it secure the necessary investment in the future of our energy systems? Will it enable us to contribute towards the economic growth and economic development agenda? I notice that Mr Fraser asks me this question while being associated with a party that presided over sky-high energy prices in this country and did absolutely nothing about the problem.”
“He will know that the high cost of energy is nearly always cited as a reason for that. If we want a sustainable industrial base across Scotland, we need to reduce the cost of energy so that it is competitive with energy charges across Europe and further afield.”
“We need to avoid future closures in the energy sector after refining at Grangemouth comes to an end. Gary Smith from the GMB union has described Labour’s decision not to grant new licences for oil and gas extraction in the North Sea as “absolute madness”. The Scottish Government is very coy about where it stands. Can the Deputy First Minister clearly say whether the Scottish Government supports the granting of new licences for projects such as Rosebank—yes or no? Kate Forbes: I think that the Scottish Government has been crystal clear that we need energy security to be prioritised and that we need the right energy mix to ensure that we have that security. More than anything else, people in Scotland want cheaper energy bills. The member started his question by talking about industrial failings.”
“Kate Forbes: In this year’s budget, we allocated an additional £2 million to VisitScotland in order to ensure that, first, there is increased footfall in terms of visitor numbers, and that visitors from new markets come to Scotland so that we can maintain international competitiveness. Secondly, that money will also support efforts to encourage visitors to spread their travel across Scotland, rather than concentrating on some of the most- visited destinations, so that the whole country can benefit from the economic value that comes from tourism. The Deputy Presiding Officer: I will call Mr Whittle to as question 4, despite the fact that he has just arrived in the chamber. There are colleagues who want to ask supplementaries to it. Ayrshire Growth Deal 4.”
“The Scottish tourist sector is excited at the prospects for the future, because some people who may have planned to travel to the United States are now reluctant to do so, which provides opportunities for tourism here. At the business in the Parliament conference that both the Deputy First Minister and I were at on Friday, people who are involved in tourism raised concerns that they have about the handicaps that the sector faces around taxation, business rates, short-term let licensing and the visitor levy. Although the tourism sector is optimistic about increased visitor numbers, hospitality margins are extremely tight. What specific help will the Scottish Government provide to those in that sector that are looking to expand?”
“I call Daniel Johnson to speak to and move amendment S6M-17352.2. 15:04”
“I move amendment S6M-17352.3, to leave out from “welcomes” to end and insert: “condemns the UK Labour administration’s increase to employer national insurance contributions, which broke an explicit manifesto promise and put a large additional burden on industry in already challenging circumstances, putting jobs at risk; regrets that the Scottish Government’s Budget chose to keep Scotland as the highest taxed part of the UK and failed to pass on business rates relief in full, hitting workers, consumers and businesses; calls on the Scottish Government to prioritise common-sense policies for economic growth that develop skills in the workforce and ensure that the tax system is competitive, efficient, simple and fair; notes that the UK Government’s intervention in British Steel provides necessary support for the resilience of a strategic supply chain; recognises that the Grangemouth oil refinery is also part of a strategic supply chain that is important to both national resilience and high- quality job opportunities, and invites further consideration by both the Scottish Government and the UK Government of means to preserve this important national asset.” The Deputy Presiding Officer: I am sure that Mr Hoy was taking notes for the wind-up speech.”
“There is a lot in my amendment that I have not even had a chance to touch on, such as what the Scottish Government should be doing better in order to support business in the areas of taxation, regulation, planning and so much more. That is all covered in my amendment, which I am happy to move.”
“We support market reform and think that it needs to be concluded quickly in order to provide certainty, and we are open to looking at the analysis on whether zonal pricing will deal with the point that I have just identified. We are not yet convinced that it will. The Deputy Presiding Officer: Could you bring your remarks to a close, Mr Fraser? Murdo Fraser: I think that that was a maybe. I have taken lots of interventions and time is escaping me, but I will make two more brief points. First, the Government is entirely right to recognise the importance of the Grangemouth site. Today’s news is extremely distressing for the staff there. I would very much welcome a Government statement on what wider action it can take.”
“I will go back and listen to them to check whether I specifically referenced zonal pricing, because I have long called for market reform. The point that I made on Friday is really key: cheaper bills could be delivered if investments and developments happen. If they do not happen—say, in the Highlands—people miss out on cheaper bills. That is the dynamic that I was referencing on Friday. Murdo Fraser: I thank the cabinet secretary for that intervention, but it does not really answer my question, which was about where the Scottish Government currently stands on zonal pricing. Is it for or against it? I will happily give way again if she wants to clarify that point. Kate Forbes: I have raised that with the UK Government a number of times.”
“In July last year, when interviewed on “Good Morning Scotland”, the Deputy First Minister suggested that zonal pricing could actually deliver free electricity for consumers in Scotland. This morning, I listened back to that interview with great interest. In October, she told the “Holyrood Sources” podcast that zonal pricing would right “the greatest injustice of our day.” It seems that she might now have changed her tune. On Friday, she told the business in the Parliament conference that zonal pricing could scare off investors. Some clarity from the Deputy First Minister on where exactly she and the Scottish Government stand on that particular issue would be welcome. Kate Forbes: I would be interested to hear those interviews.”
“We should not pretend that that is not a factor in the high cost of electricity here—it is not down to the volume of gas in the energy supply. We also need to recognise the importance of oil and gas, which is a point that Fergus Ewing made. Today, Gary Smith of the GMB union was quoted as saying that there is “a growing sense of betrayal” among workers about the approach that the UK Labour Government is taking towards oil and gas. In his words, it is “absolute madness” not to grant licences for oil and gas. That is from somebody who is at the heart of the labour movement, and I hope that Labour colleagues will listen to what he has to say. To come back to the Scottish Government, in the past few days, we have seen what looks like something of a shift in Scottish Government policy when it comes to zonal pricing.”
“Yesterday, in the area that I represent, I met a house builder who expressed concern that it could take three or four years to get a power connection to deliver 44 much-needed units of affordable housing in an area where there is huge demand. The only constraint on that happening is the time that it takes to get a transmission upgrade from Scottish and Southern Electricity Networks, which I hope to meet shortly to discuss the issue. We are seeing massive investments in the green economy, such as in renewable energy, infrastructure projects, transmission and pylons. Those investments are welcome because they are creating jobs, but they all have to be paid for, and they are being paid for by the levies that all of us— consumers and industries—pay on electricity bills.”
“Kate Forbes: All that said, does the member accept that one of the greatest hurdles to industrial expansion is access to the national grid? The long delays to upgrading national grid infrastructure mean that my inbox is often full of messages from businesses that want to expand and major companies that want to relocate, some of which have been told that they must wait five to 10 years to get access to the grid. Does he accept that there are some things that are more within the control of the UK Government that will make a difference? Murdo Fraser: I should clarify that I was not criticising the Scottish Government’s energy policy, because I entirely accept that those are largely reserved matters. I do not disagree with the Deputy First Minister’s point.”