Jackson Carlaw
Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party · Scotland
“Presiding Officer, I am here under false pretences. I understood that that was to be Christine Grahame’s final speech, and yet I now gather that there are to be more final speeches than Frank Sinatra had farewell concerts.”
“The corporate body’s proceedings during Covid were often interrupted by guest appearances from Mr Smokey, the much-loved cat in Christine Grahame’s ownership—maybe “ownership” is too bold a word to use for a cat. I am less of a cat person than a dog person.”
“We have found, to our surprise, that, from time to time, perhaps because of our lifetime experience, we have the same view on issues that come before the SPCB, sometimes to the disquiet of the other members.”
“In my experience, such cross-party friendship has been Christine Grahame’s example as a parliamentarian. I have watched Christine Grahame speak in all sorts of debates where she has had to go and research the topic. I have watched her bring thoughtful contributions to the chamber.”
“All of us who are of a certain age probably remember Harold Macmillan lamenting the fact that, when the Russians first put a monkey into space, all the great powers of the world were devastated and concerned about what it meant that Russia was in space whereas all that the people who wrote to Harold Macmillan were concerned about was what…”
“As the only man on a corporate body dominated by women, I ask Mr Whitfield whether he is confirming that no man would find himself in such a happy position in a future Parliament. Martin Whitfield: I am grateful for the member’s careful wording as to how he feels that his time on the corporate body has gone.”
The complete record
Every one of 234 lines we hold for Jackson Carlaw, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 5 of 5.
“It is, I suppose, always a pleasure to follow George Adam. He said that the UK Government seeks to protect the British state, and I might observe that that is, in fact, what the people of Scotland voted for in 2014. This debate is something of a pretty kettle of fish. When Kate Forbes stood to speak, I was reflecting that, when I first came to the Parliament, Ms Forbes was 17, had just left school and was off to the University of Cambridge. Of course, she has been the repository of a great deal of hope among many that she will bring a more enlightened view to the Parliament. Angus Robertson and I were both fiery redheads in those days. He now has a slightly depressing grey look, but I have maintained a slightly strawberry blonde colour.”
“To ask the First Minister whether he will join His Majesty the King and other world leaders in commemorating the 80th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz extermination camp and offer his reflections on the theme of this year’s Holocaust memorial day, “For a Better Future”. (S6F-03762)”
“They did not want their “experience of man’s inhumanity to be the experience of any yet to come of man’s humanity.” That is why it is so important that we remember, that we stand firmly and that the young people of this country who are so engaged continue to be so and stand with us to ensure that the Holocaust never happens again. 17:34”
“In this debate, I have not rehearsed many of the stories that I have told over all the years in which I have participated in similar debates since I was first elected. I know that other members will contribute their memories. My memories of that camp will never leave me, so I echo the words of the Holocaust Memorial Day Trust: “we must become the generations who carry forward the legacy of the witnesses, remember those who were murdered and challenge those who would distort or deny the past, or who discriminate and persecute today. We can all mark Holocaust Memorial Day 2025 and commit to making a better future for us all.” One of the survivors said something that will strike home for all of us.”
“As I am sure the First Minister did, anyone who has visited Auschwitz I—not the extermination camp, but Auschwitz I—and who has stood between blocks 10 and 11 will recognise that the people of all ages who were brought there, including children, were put up against a wall, had a bullet fired through them and were murdered for no reason other than that they were Jewish. This week, His Majesty the King and other world leaders all stood in front of Auschwitz II’s entrance gateway. We have probably all seen those images. What struck me—and, I imagine, many others—was just how few of the survivors remain and how frail they now are. However, we could still see how disturbed they were, not just by the memory of having been there but by their fears for the future. That is why we have such a duty placed on us.”
“I give the example of the white rose campaign group at the University of Munich, among whom were the teenage brother and sister Hans and Sophie Scholl, who distributed literature to try to call a halt to what was happening. They were taken by the Nazis and beheaded, facing upwards, simply for campaigning against that genocide. As those who have been there will know, the camp at Auschwitz was designed and run by Rudolf Höss, who had previously run Dachau concentration camp—the first camp that I visited. It was from there that he took the “Arbeit macht frei” slogan, because he felt that an easier way to lure people to their deaths was to make them think that they were doing something useful.”
“Tonight, pupils from Mearns Castle high school are at an event in my constituency, which, unfortunately, I cannot attend because I am introducing this debate. Lexie, Sam and Anna, who are Anne Frank ambassadors, will tonight reflect on their experiences, and tomorrow they will be here when they participate in the Parliament’s Holocaust memorial event. On various occasions in the past year, I have made reference to my late constituent Henry Wuga, who was the last of the Kindertransport children to survive. Today’s young people need to know about the Holocaust because it was young people like them who stood up and did what they could against Hitler and the Nazis.”
“In the past few days, he again brought to our attention his grandmother, who, 80 years ago, died as she was being liberated from Bergen-Belsen with her two daughters—one of whom was his mother—sitting by her side on the train. She had given everything to keep them safe and alive in Bergen-Belsen, and she literally expired from that effort as the train departed the camp. In a local context, I am delighted that St Ninian’s high school in my Eastwood constituency is in the top three places in the Holocaust Memorial Day Trust’s secondary schools competition. Students were tasked with creating a memorial to the genocide in Bosnia. They created a wreath made of flowers from Srebrenica to commemorate the significant 30th anniversary of the genocide that took place there.”
“I applaud the Scottish Government for the funding that it has made available to ensure that those educational programmes can continue. I am so pleased that nearly all our First Ministers, including John Swinney, the current First Minister, have stood, as I did, in Auschwitz and have been overwhelmed with the enormity and the emotions that will never leave any of us who have visited that place. Antisemitism continues, which is why it is so important that such education continues. Ten years ago, there was the attack on Charlie Hebdo in Paris. Danny Finkelstein, in his memoir, “Hitler, Stalin, Mum and Dad”, said that, for the first time— this was prescient, because it was published in the summer of the year before last—he worried and feared that events similar to the Holocaust could be unfolding again.”
“Since this Parliament first met, 1.2 million Scots have been born. The first Holocaust memorial day was in 2001. Why is it so important that we commemorate these events? It is because, for those young people, it is the testament and the determination of our generation to ensure that those events are not forgotten that is so important to them. I applaud the former Secretary of State for Scotland, Jim Murphy, and our former Presiding Officer, Ken Macintosh, who were instrumental in ensuring that there were visits to Auschwitz concentration camp for young people. I commend the vision schools Scotland programme, promoted by Dr Paula Cowan and the University of the West of Scotland, which does so much for continuous Holocaust education and is now in every local authority across Scotland.”
“Twenty-five per cent of the population of that country were murdered by Pol Pot in the killing fields, often not with bullets but with a pickaxe through the head. Sixty per cent of those who died were executed. Many of the children who were not executed were abducted and indoctrinated and were then forced to commit the most appalling atrocities themselves. That was the genocide with which I was most familiar. It was Dr Jacob Bronowski who first hinted, in his television series, “The Ascent of Man”, when he was allowed to visit Auschwitz concentration camp, which was then behind the iron curtain. He walked, overcome with emotion, fully suited, into puddles, picking up, as he thought, the ashes of those who died there, including most of his family. He called it “the tragedy of mankind”.”
“Eighty years ago, we were a world at war, and the consequence of that war was tens of millions of people dead around the world and the extermination of one third of the world’s Jewish population by Nazi Germany. It was not the first holocaust of which I was aware. Despite growing up in a community where so much of the Jewish population in Scotland lived, they did not talk about it—it was just not mentioned. Members of families living next door to me had no idea that their parents had been involved in the Holocaust or that they had lost relatives in it. In fact, the first holocaust of which I was aware was the holocaust in Cambodia: the genocide that took place there between 1975 and 1979. It was there in front of me on the television when I was growing up as a teenager.”
“Whether it was the big dipper, the ghost train, the waltzer or any other rides, scooping up rubber ducks or shooting at unpopular people, it was a thrill. I remember one particular occasion on the dodgems, when my mother was wearing a wig. We crashed into her and her wig went flying off her head and landed somewhere on the concourse. Nobody was very helpful in retrieving it. In fact, every time I got near it, somebody flung it further away. It was a very sad-looking wig by the end of the occasion. We are all full of memories, are we not? Even as adults, when we pass by a funfair or carnival, nostalgia enthuses us. As David Torrance said, it is not just the sights; it is the sounds, the smells and everything that went with the occasion that we very much enjoyed.”
“I congratulate my good friend David Torrance on securing tonight’s debate. I, too, welcome all the showpeople representatives who are in the public gallery. It is fantastic to see the weight and glitter of their sparkling chains. I love the showpeople for all sorts of reasons, not least because they run family businesses—second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh or eighth-generation family businesses in many instances. They have contributed so much to public life and the entertainment of so many over a great many years. Who does not remember, as a child, experiencing the thrill and excitement of the fair or the carnival that they went to, wherever it was? In Glasgow, it was the Kelvin hall carnival when I was young.”
“I also thank the clerks and all parliamentary staff who supported the committee throughout the process, as well as Transport Scotland officials for the volume of evidence that was made available to the committee when we requested various documents relating to the A9 dualling programme.”
“In doing so, we gathered evidence from people with technical and industry expertise, from people and businesses that were affected by issues along that arterial route, and from those who held the highest positions in the Government. The committee is grateful to all who have contributed to our consideration of the matter, whether in person or in writing, including the former First Ministers Humza Yousaf, Nicola Sturgeon and the late Alex Salmond, whose final appearance before the Parliament was at our committee. I thank the many political parties that sought to give evidence to the committee during its inquiry, which I must say excludes the Scottish Greens.”
“As members will be aware, before we had the opportunity to even consider the petition, the then Minister for Transport, Jenny Gilruth, announced that the 2025 completion date was “simply no longer achievable”. That announcement in February 2023 and the initial evidence that we gathered from the petitioner, the Civil Engineering Contractors Association and Transport Scotland led to the committee taking the unusual step of elevating its consideration of the petition to the level of an inquiry. Throughout the inquiry, the committee sought to explore the circumstances that led to the 2025 completion date becoming unachievable, as well as to consider on-going challenges that might impact on the successful dualling of the A9 by the Scottish Government’s new target completion date of 2035.”
“Laura Hansler joins us in the public gallery, and I thank her for lodging the petition calling on the Scottish Parliament to urge the Scottish Government to fulfil its 2011 promise to dual the A9 between Perth and Inverness, which provided the catalyst for our inquiry. I commend her for her commitment to the issue over a long number of years, including through the forthright and powerful evidence that she provided directly to the committee, as well as by faithfully attending meetings to observe the evidence that we heard from past and present Scottish Government ministers and officials, about which I will say more shortly. The petition was lodged in December 2022 and it includes a call for completion of the dualling work by 2025.”
“One of the frustrations of opening a debate on behalf of the committee is that I cannot freewheel in my usual style; I have to adhere to a text, which is very frustrating. The subject of the debate will be familiar to many colleagues across the chamber. However, I was not directly involved in it prior to convening the Citizen Participation and Public Petitions Committee’s inquiry into the A9 dualling programme, other than as a semi-regular user of the road. As convener of the committee, I put on record again my thanks to Laura Hansler. Every petition has its origin in a member of the public who comes to us with an issue that they wish us to pursue. We do so without fear or favour, with no manifesto underpinning our work but to challenge and represent the petitioner’s concern.”
“For example, one of the recommendations is that we should have a much simpler structure for whole-system civil emergency preparedness and response. I argue that things are always easier to remember if they are simpler than if they are overly complex and bureaucratic. Irrespective of what the future holds, we understand our responsibility to be prepared, and we are committed to taking the lead on that.”
“Of course, the previous pandemic of any significance was the Spanish flu pandemic 100 years before, so it is perfectly possible that we will all be dead and gone by the time of the next one. Notwithstanding that cheery thought, institutional memory is a fickle thing, and it is perfectly possible that there will be no first-hand memory to draw on. Therefore, is the Deputy First Minister certain that the processes and procedures that are being put in place will survive the test of time? Kate Forbes: The member is right to identify the importance of institutional memory and the danger of relying only on it, which is why our four- nations response is so critical. It writes that memory in to the four institutions that govern these islands.”
“I would be glad to receive it—if it can be forwarded, that would be helpful. Clearly, there is an opportunity, particularly through digital technology, to overcome some people’s fear that if you bring people into Scotland, they will be on the first train back down to London. If we can overcome that fear, perhaps there is a case, and perhaps there is an opportunity in the future. However, the Scottish Government must address the points that I made at the start of my speech. We must make the infrastructure investments that enable us to attract people into Scotland, so that we have sound public services to which they can add support. 16:22”
“Was Ms Grahame trying to come in as well? I will take the intervention from Mr Macpherson. Lorna Slater: It was me. Jackson Carlaw: Oh! I am sorry. Ben Macpherson: I thank Jackson Carlaw for taking the intervention. I agree with the points that he has made. The devolution of migration policy would also give us the opportunity to take further responsibility, given the seriousness of all aspects of migration policy. That could also help us. Jackson Carlaw: That is the bit that I am not yet persuaded about—but I could be. I heard Mr Arthur talk about the carefully defined scheme that he has been progressing in relation to migration. I am sorry that I do not have the detail of it. He said that the scheme was articulated to the Home Office in a detailed proposal. Is that detail in the public domain?”
“As I have said to Maggie Chapman and some others, one reason that people are concerned about the devolution of those issues is that some parties have never supported the deportation of any illegal migrant, in any circumstances whatsoever. The concern of many people, and of much of the public, is that that is not a system; that is just an open-door policy. What they want is a migration system that will work—that is humane and compassionate, but with a principle that people can unite behind. That is what we have got to do. I do not see that we have any other alternatives— Ben Macpherson: Will the member give way? Lorna Slater: Will Mr Carlaw take an intervention? Jackson Carlaw: Yes, I will. The Deputy Presiding Officer: From whom, Mr Carlaw? Jackson Carlaw: I think it was Mr Macpherson—but I heard another voice that sounded female.”
“Over the new year, papers were released under the 20-year rule that showed that the Home Secretary and various other ministers queried whether Tony Blair was doing the right thing in dismantling the entire immigration application apparatus. In a narrowly defined ultimate contest, did he not potentially stoke the very fears that, to my dismay, subsequently led to people voting for us to leave the European Union? We must have a migration system. Professor Sir John Curtice produced a report, that we debated in 2018, which showed that 63 per cent of people in Scotland did not want those matters to be devolved to Scotland.”
“We need to ask ourselves why and to do everything that we can to try to bring that change about. At one point, I heard Rhoda Grant say “back in 204”—I think that she meant 2004; I am sure that that was a slip of the tongue—which was when the Emperor Elagabalus was ruling over England. Maggie Chapman might be interested to know that Elagabalus was the first transgender emperor, who started as a male and transitioned to a female. Colleagues, nothing is new under the sun. Notwithstanding that, Tony Blair dismantled the consensus around some of the fears about immigration. We all know that, when, to my dismay, this country voted to leave the European Union, migration was the issue at the heart of that.”
“I still do not think that we properly answer the question as to why Scotland has been less successful than other parts of the United Kingdom at attracting a proportionate share of those who come to the United Kingdom to work here. Yes, we can point to free university tuition and free personal care, other mitigations and free prescriptions, but if you are a young person of working age, none of those things is terribly relevant to you. You do not yet have children going to university. You think that you are invincible and that you will not need free personal care for decades. Nor do you think that you will need free prescriptions. You are looking to other things. At the moment, we are not attracting the sort of economic opportunities into Scotland that make it desirable for those younger people to come and settle here.”
“Way back in my first session of Parliament, that situation was described to me as a pyramid that was about to be inverted. Therefore, to underpin our public services and to make ourselves economically attractive, we need to bring people into Scotland who will be able to contribute to the welfare of all of us who are here in the future. All that is taking place at the same time as we are leaving an industrial revolution and embedding and embracing the digital technical revolution. All of that represents changes over the next 30 years that will probably be as great as any over the past 200 years. We need to have an entrepreneurial, younger and aspirational workforce that is attracted to come to Scotland. We need to have a mature discussion.”
“The suggestion that migration is at the heart of the stresses in our public life and services is a fantasy, and a malicious and self-deceiving one at that. Let me be absolutely clear ... that migration and immigration from wherever are good, necessary and desirable. There is a strong, powerful and unarguable case for migration to Scotland and” I am “on its side.”—[Official Report, 22 February 2018; c 60-1.] This may be the 19th year that I have been in the Parliament but, throughout those 19 years, we have talked about the ageing demographic in Scotland. In the report that the Scottish Government published in 2018, we noted that, over the next 25 years, the number of people aged 75 and over would increase by 79 per cent.”
“Homes that might have been expected to appear on the open market two decades ago are now still happily occupied. Yes, we have busy hospitals and general practitioner surgeries, but that is not because of migration. We have a population that is living longer but is not always well. Even in the lifetime of this Parliament, we have seen new issues that were not envisaged when we first met, such as dementia and diabetes arising from obesity, present enormous strategic and budgetary challenges to the national health service. Yes, we have busy schools, colleges and universities, but that is not because of migration. Far more of our young people stay longer at school and proceed into further education of whatever kind.”
“Eastwood, where I have lived for the vast majority of the years since, is a community that has been home for many who have migrated to Scotland from the rest of the UK and from the rest of the world, including Europe.” Incidentally, despite what some speakers said, inward net migration from the European Union continues to hit record levels. “Let me tackle directly some of the myths that are often repeated to me as an MSP—myths founded on concerns that migration alone is responsible for the pressures on our infrastructure and public services, which is simply not true. Yes, we have a housing shortage, but that is not because of migration. We have seen radical shifts in the way that we choose to live, with far more single home occupancy and longer life expectancy.”
“It is always a pleasure to participate in a debate with Richard Leonard. It reminds me of happier times, when, as leaders of our parties, if nothing else, we probably forced members in the chamber to stay awake during our speeches. I had a look back and noted that I last made a substantive contribution to a debate on the subject in 2018. I was able to say in my remarks then that, as deputy leader of the Conservative Party, I spoke on behalf of my party, as led by Ruth Davidson. This afternoon, as I repeat some of what I said then, perhaps I speak more for myself than I do for my party. I will quote some of what I said then: “Almost 60 years ago, I was born in my Eastwood constituency.”
“Last year, the Deputy First Minister said: “I have often heard it said that the negative rhetoric about tax is more off-putting than the tax itself.”—[Official Report, Economy and Fair Work Committee, 9 October 2024; c 25.] She clearly believes that, if only Opposition parties would say nice things about SNP policies, we could trick people into moving to Scotland. The Scottish Conservatives would love to say positive things about Scottish tax policy, but, unfortunately, the SNP insists on raising taxes for hard-working families, with nothing to show for it.”
“I wish to reflect on Mr Macpherson’s point about inward migration from the rest of the UK. I do not think that we have a profile of the age demographic for that migration. Is Mr Macpherson able to demonstrate that the inward migration is of people of working age who are here to contribute to the economy? If that is not the case, his point is rather less effective than he imagines. Jeremy Balfour: I will come back to the point that Mr Carlaw made, if time allows. The Scottish Government likes to make a big song and dance about its progressive tax policy, but the truth is that medium earners in Scotland pay more tax than their counterparts pay south of the border. A Scottish resident on £50,000 a year will pay an extra £1,527.80 in the next tax year, compared with someone with the same job in England.”