Liam McArthur
Scottish Liberal Democrats · Scotland
“I associate myself very much with the comments and requests of Kristopher Leask. This weekend sees the second Water Sound bluegrass festival take place in Burray, in my Orkney constituency. I therefore ask the cabinet secretary to offer congratulations to the organisers, Pete and Gail McAndrew, for getting the festival up and running.”
“I think that he said that it is taking place this weekend, in which case I hope that the weather holds up, as that could add something very special to a bluegrass festival.”
“I, too, thank the cabinet secretary for early sight of her statement, which obviously comes on the back of eye-watering rises in business rates earlier this year.”
“I have a constituent who, for the past nine years, has desperately sought treatment for swelling on his legs and groin that has progressively worsened and is now profoundly incapacitating. Having sought treatment in Scotland, it is clear that that is not available.”
“Jenny Gilruth: The Liberal Democrats engaged with us throughout the budget process last year and they were able to extract a number of things from the Government. I hope that other Opposition parties will learn from their good behaviour.”
“There are strengths in the current system but I accept that there are inherent challenges in relation to the issues presented by revaluation, for example, and the wider challenges that businesses are facing.”
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“The next item of business is portfolio question time. The portfolio on this occasion is climate action and energy, and transport. There is quite a bit of demand for supplementary questions, so brevity in questions and responses would be welcome. I note that, for question 1, Michael Matheson is not present in the chamber. I have not received an explanation for that; I expect one in due course. Sustainable Aviation Fuel Production 2.”
“The first item of business this afternoon is consideration of business motion S6M-19081, in the name of Graeme Dey, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, on changes to the business programme. Motion moved, That the Parliament agrees to the following revision to the programme of business for Thursday 25 September 2025— after followed by Financial Resolution: Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill insert followed by Financial Resolution: Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill—[Graeme Dey.] Motion agreed to. Portfolio Question Time Climate Action and Energy, and Transport 14:00”
“To ask the Scottish Government what discussions it has had with NHS Orkney regarding reported delays in ophthalmology appointments for patients. (S6O-04981)”
“I am afraid that I cannot support Katy Clark’s amendment because of the legal flaw and the lack of landlord consent.”
“It will provide a new legal mechanism for social landlords to apply to the court for a tenancy transfer in favour of a victim survivor, which would mean allowing a woman who is being abused in a social home to stay in her home. I will briefly talk about the private rented sector. The bill introduces the new process that I have spoken about, whereby a joint tenant in the private rented sector can end their tenancy without the agreement of other joint tenants, which would mean that a person could do that without the agreement of their abuser. The bill provides that massive step forward. We have also committed to further action to developing domestic abuse guidance for private landlords and strengthening the existing pre-action protocol guidance for rent arrears, so we have a suite of actions.”
“A new legal duty will be placed on all local authority landlords and registered social landlords to prepare and publish a domestic abuse policy. The bill will also require social landlords to take additional steps before initiating eviction proceedings for rent arrears in situations in which domestic abuse may have contributed to the arrears. A Government-supported amendment in the name of Meghan Gallacher will support the reflection in the Scottish social housing charter of tenants who are affected by domestic abuse. Beyond that, outwith the bill, I let the Parliament know today that implementing part 2 of the Domestic Abuse (Protection) (Scotland) Act 2021 is an absolute priority for me.”
“Therefore, I cannot support the amendment, because it is legally flawed. However, I want to take a moment to make clear my determination to support the housing needs of women and children who face domestic abuse. It is worth taking time to point out some of the other measures that we are taking, in order to give members comfort, because I know that, like me, they will want to support amendment 293, but I must ask them not to. On 2 September, the Government rolled out across the country the national fund to leave. Beyond that, through the bill, in the social rented sector, we will broaden the definition of domestic abuse in housing legislation to align it with the Domestic Abuse (Protection) (Scotland) Act 2021.”
“Crucially, the provision in the bill requires the landlord’s consent, which retains legal competence. In such cases, the departing tenant’s interest would be transferred to the incoming tenant, thereby preserving the tenancy. As I have said, amendment 293 would completely remove the landlord’s discretion from the process and would force the landlord to accept the assignation of the departing tenant’s interest to the remaining tenants. In a domestic abuse scenario, we might say that that is justifiable, but, unfortunately, the legal underpinning prevents me from taking that view. Proposals such as those that are in front of us could amount to, or seriously risk being, a disproportionate control of the use of the landlord’s property for the purposes of article 1, protocol 1 of the European convention on human rights.”
“Unfortunately, it is clear from looking closely at amendment 293 that it could mean that a departing joint tenant in the private rented sector could assign their interest in the joint tenancy to the remaining joint tenants. Crucially, they could do so without the consent of the landlord. In those circumstances, the tenancy would need to remain on the same terms. The outcome in question—being able to end the tenancy—is already possible under existing provisions in the bill, but, crucially, with the landlord’s consent. I will expand on that a little. The bill introduces a new provision whereby a victim of domestic abuse—or, indeed, anybody— could end their joint tenancy without the consent of, in this case, their abuser. In those circumstances, consent would currently be required.”
“Màiri McAllan: I will not take too long, but I will take a little more time than I took in speaking to the amendments in the preceding few groups, because Katy Clark’s amendment 293, in particular, pertains to an issue that is very important to me. I thank her for her engagement on her amendments in the group and, more widely, for her work in supporting those who experience domestic abuse, which is an issue that I feel very strongly about. I absolutely understand that amendment 293 stems from concerns about the impact of a joint tenancy being ended for tenants—victims of domestic abuse, in particular—who would like to remain in their property. I have given careful consideration to the need for further change in that area in the run-up to stage 3, and I have looked closely at Katy Clark’s amendments.”
“Katy Clark’s amendment 293 is an interesting amendment, and I would be interested to hear what the cabinet secretary makes of it. It is a good problem for us to be airing. With regard to amendment 302, I think that six months is quite a long period, given that three months is where we are at at the moment. I would be interested to hear Mr Griffin’s rationale for that. Mark Griffin: Amendment 302, which I believe is supported by the Government, seeks to make a technical change to an amendment on succession that was agreed to at stage 2. It seeks to extend the period for which a qualifying person can remain in a let property following the death of a tenant from three to six months, to align it with other provisions in this section of the bill.”
“There is not a guarantee on that in the bill as it is currently drafted, so my amendment would strengthen the law and deal with the situation. In addition, the bill does not prevent a landlord from changing the conditions of a tenancy for the remaining tenants, and my amendment would address that issue also. I move amendment 293. Edward Mountain: With amendments 233, 234 and 235, I am proposing that a non-related carer should be unable to inherit the tenancy. I absolutely agree that related carers should have that right, but I am not sure that I believe that non- related carers should. Amendment 232 is a technical amendment. I will be interested to hear what the cabinet secretary has to say about those amendments.”
“The amendment is supported by campaigns such as Living Rent. The Children and Young People’s Commissioner Scotland also supports the amendment because it is worried that the bill’s provisions to allow one tenant to leave a tenancy do not provide a “guarantee that the remaining tenant would be able to continue the tenancy”, and could therefore leave “more single parent households facing homelessness.” Living Rent, Scottish Women’s Aid and other campaigns have raised that point, too. It has been a problem in England and Wales and has been reported on by the National Housing Federation, the Domestic Abuse Housing Alliance and the Domestic Abuse Commissioner. We should not risk going down that path in Scotland. Amendment 293 would allow at least one party in a joint tenancy to remain in the house.”
“Amendment 229 disagreed to. Section 38—Private residential tenancies: ending a joint tenancy The Deputy Presiding Officer: Group 16 is on joint tenancies and succession to tenancies. Amendment 293, in the name of Katy Clark, is grouped with amendments 232 to 235 and 302. Katy Clark: I will speak to amendment 293, in my name. The bill allows tenants in a joint tenancy to give notice without the consent of the remaining tenants, which is an important improvement to prevent tenants from being trapped in a tenancy. My amendment 293 would provide greater protection for the remaining tenants, as well as the ability to transfer the joint tenancy to someone else. That would, I hope, allow more flexibility for people in shared tenancies and the potential for easier transitions between tenancies.”
“For Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Ross Greer] Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Against Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Ind) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Reform) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Fulton MacGregor] Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) [Proxy vote cast by Willie Rennie] Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 23, Against 76, Abstentions 0.”
“I call Maggie Chapman to wind up and say whether she wishes to press or withdraw amendment 229. Maggie Chapman: I will press amendment 229. The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, that amendment 229 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a division.”
“That concludes portfolio questions on finance and local government. I am minded to suspend the meeting briefly, as we are missing a couple of colleagues for the next item of business. 14:48 Meeting suspended. 14:49 On resuming— Residential Outdoor Education”
“The next portfolio is finance and local government. Again, we have the same provisions that I set out earlier in terms of the time pressures that we are under over the course of this afternoon and this evening. Budget 2025-26 (Aberdeenshire Council) 1.”
“Thank you, Mr Ewing. As you will be aware, the Presiding Officer responded to a similar concern that was raised yesterday. I will ensure that the comments that you have just made are further reflected on. If there is anything further that can be added, I will ensure that the chamber is kept updated. Portfolio Question Time 14:28 Finance and Local Government”
“Good afternoon. The first item of business is portfolio questions, and the first portfolio is Deputy First Minister responsibilities, economy and Gaelic. I advise the chamber that there is a lot of interest in supplementaries. As members will know, we are under considerable time pressure across the afternoon and into the evening. Therefore, I require brevity in questions and responses if we are to get through them all. Gross Value Added (Growth) 1.”
“For Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Ross Greer] Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Against Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Ind) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Alba) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Reform) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Fulton MacGregor] Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The vote is closed.”
“Amendment 281 disagreed to. Amendment 282 moved—[Maggie Chapman]. The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, that amendment 282 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a division.”
“For Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Ross Greer] Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Against Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Ind) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Alba) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Reform) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Fulton MacGregor] Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 24, Against 85, Abstentions 0.”
“Amendment 72 agreed to. Amendment 281 moved—[Maggie Chapman]. The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, that amendment 281 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a division.”
“For Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Ross Greer] Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Reform) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Fulton MacGregor] Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) Against Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Ind) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 81, Against 27, Abstentions 0.”
“Amendment 71 disagreed to. Amendment 175 not moved. Amendment 72 moved—[Maggie Chapman]. The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, that amendment 72 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a division.”
“Amendment 71A disagreed to. 20:45 The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, that amendment 71 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a division. For Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Ross Greer] Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Against Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Ind) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Alba) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Reform) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Fulton MacGregor] Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 24, Against 84, Abstentions 0.”
“For Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Ross Greer] Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Against Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Ind) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Alba) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Reform) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Fulton MacGregor] Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 8, Against 100, Abstentions 0.”
“The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call Maggie Chapman to wind up and say whether she wishes to press or withdraw amendment 3. Maggie Chapman: Members will be delighted to know that I will simply seek to withdraw amendment 3. Amendment 3, by agreement, withdrawn. Amendment 71 moved—[Maggie Chapman]. Amendment 71A moved—[Maggie Chapman]. The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, that amendment 71A be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a division.”
“Amendment 375, as Meghan Gallacher has put it to me, would require non-combustible materials in the external walls of all new homes, regardless of height or type. That would exclude, for example, the use of timber cladding, which is common in many areas, and it would also prevent the use of thermally efficient insulation, thereby causing a risk to achieving good standards of energy performance. As with everything in respect of cladding, the Government’s core ambition is to protect life and safety, and we do that on the ability of the expert advice that we have. I already have—I think—a date to come to committee and update members on cladding, so I will look to discuss that further with them then. To conclude, I will support Mark Griffin’s amendment 295, and I ask members to reject the other amendments in the group.”
“While I recognise the intent behind amendment 375, I cannot support a proposed amendment that seeks to make changes to subordinate legislation without consultation. The Building (Scotland) Regulations 2004 prevent the installation of combustible external wall cladding systems on “relevant buildings”. The relevant provision was made in 2022 following substantial consultation, and I will give Meghan Gallacher a little bit of detail. The amendment resulted in a move to a threshold height of 11m for non-combustible cladding on blocks of flats and other buildings within the scope from 1 June 2022. The 11m height was established by the expert group and supported through consultation, and it aligns with the ability to firefight from the ground without the need for high-reach appliances.”
“In totality, owing to drafting problems, the existing suite of laws as they stand and the fact that the work needs to be for everybody and not just for agricultural workers, I cannot accept— Graham Simpson: Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention? Màiri McAllan: I am not going to take an intervention from Graham Simpson. I cannot accept the provisions that Mr Leonard has put to me, but I commit to working with him on the issue. I want to see the detail of the freedom of information request that he is talking about and the photographs to which he referred, on which the First Minister engaged with him, and then he and I, and the Cabinet Secretary for Rural Affairs, Land Reform and Islands, can sit down and work out what we need to do. I move swiftly on to combustible cladding.”
“I note what the member says about his freedom of information request, and I would be glad to see the detail of that. Amendment 350 seeks to remove the ability of agricultural landowners in Scotland to set up caravan sites to accommodate seasonal workers. I agree, ultimately, and the Scottish Government is fully committed to undertaking further engagement and development work to understand how we address the gap that amendment 350 is trying to address. Again, however, there is a problem, because we need to recognise that it needs to be addressed for all seasonal workers, not just for agricultural workers.”
“Richard Leonard: But there are three quite distinct approaches to tackling this loophole: one is through the Agricultural Wages Board inspectors, but the other two are directly through local authority housing inspectors and are about introducing a tolerable standard for this accommodation, when it is currently exempt. Does the cabinet secretary not concede that there is a route in amendments 349 and 350 to tackle that situation? Màiri McAllan: I am afraid that I cannot accept that. Amendment 349 includes a duty to make byelaws and, unfortunately, I do not think that it is appropriate to require ministers to make such byelaws. That should remain a discretionary matter, which should allow for consultation with the local authority should there be any concerns about the adequacy of the local authority’s own byelaws.”
“They have no powers whatsoever over the state of the accommodation that these workers are living in. Màiri McAllan: I highlight the powers that local authorities have alongside those that the agricultural wages enforcement team already has in respect of reporting concerns to illustrate the picture as it stands. I am not suggesting that the situation is as good as it should be, but I cannot accept the amendments, owing to the slight drafting problems and the fact that I am not clear that wages officers are the right trained people to carry out inspections.”
“On the more substantive issue, although they deal with routine or complaint-related inspections, members of the agricultural wages enforcement team already report concerns raised by employees about the condition of the accommodation to the appropriate local authority, and local authorities have powers under environmental law to carry out inspections. However, it is not clear to me that agricultural wages enforcement teams would necessarily have the expertise with regard to inspections, given that wages are their remit. That is another matter that we would have to look into. Richard Leonard: Does the cabinet secretary not accept that the only powers that local authorities have relate to the infrastructure, including the parking arrangements on the sites?”
“From the outset, I want to be clear that I recognise the need—the imperative—to ensure that accommodation for agricultural workers is fit for habitation, and it is something that I absolutely agree with. However, I cannot agree that the amendment would provide the reassurance that Mr Leonard seeks. First, unfortunately, there are drafting problems, because the amendment creates a power to delegate a function of delegating, and it is not clear whether the amendment actually creates a function to be delegated. I know that that will be a frustration to Mr Leonard, and I am sorry to have to point that out.”
“That would include properties that fail the tolerable standard. In the light of that, I ask Ms Burgess not to press these amendments, because there is a suite of existing measures that deal with the issues, and I feel that creating further legislative requirements will create a confusing regulatory landscape. On Mr Leonard’s contribution on seasonal workers and amendments 348 to 350 in his name, amendment 348 would empower ministers to “delegate to such public body as they consider appropriate the function of providing officers under the Agricultural Wages (Scotland) Act 1949 with the ability to” do certain things, which he took us through and which include the ability to inspect workers’ accommodation and to notify concerns to the local authority.”
“Amendments 300 and 301 are alternative amendments that would create a power for local authorities to inspect a house that is entered in the landlord register and to impose a fine, to be set by the Scottish ministers, on the landlord if the house does not comply with the relevant safety, quality and energy efficiency standards. The provisions are not required. There are enforcement mechanisms for the repairing standard under the Housing (Scotland) Act 2006 and for the tolerable standard under the 1987 act. The First-tier Tribunal for Scotland can already impose a repairing standard enforcement order under the 2006 act, if a property fails the repairing standard. A local authority can issue a work notice under section 30 of the 2006 act, if a property is considered to be substandard.”
“For example, if there is a requirement to turn off the secondary heating system the minute that power comes back on but someone is constantly losing power, back and forth, a lot of the systems simply cannot work. That means that, in essence, they are banned by a secondary means. Màiri McAllan: I take on board those points, but my concern with regard to deliberation on primary legislation is that the ability to have secondary heating systems exists and that, as Mr Halcro Johnston pointed out, the Government made provision for that in respect of the new-build heat standard rather recently.”
“I point out to members that voting against this amendment is not a vote against wood-burning stoves or other secondary heating systems, because the amendment is not needed to protect their use—it is simply unnecessary. Jamie Halcro Johnston: Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention on that point? Màiri McAllan: I think that I should probably make progress, Presiding Officer, but I am happy— The Deputy Presiding Officer: I can allow a brief intervention, but it must be brief. Jamie Halcro Johnston: The problem with some of the regulations is that they put such requirements on secondary heating that it is almost impossible to put it in place, from both a financial and technical point of view.”
“Amendments 244 and 259, in the name of Jamie Halcro Johnson, are identical to amendments that he brought at stage 2. They seek to restrict policy making in any future attempt to regulate heating systems. As outlined, the Government already protects the use of direct emissions in secondary heating, including in rural properties, if required, for exactly the circumstances that have been referred to. Jamie Halcro Johnston: Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention on that point? Màiri McAllan: I will make a little more progress. I point to the new-build heat standard, which already allows for secondary heating systems of the kind that are specified in the amendment.”
“The amendment could be a mechanism to do it, but we need to hear whether the cabinet secretary has other proposals. Màiri McAllan: My view is that it is not appropriate to formalise that approach. What is appropriate is for substandard housing to be brought up to standard and for there to be the option to use compulsory purchase and do exactly what the member has described, which is what Glasgow City Council has done. I highlight to the member that, on 19 September, we launched a substantial consultation on compulsory purchase reform, which includes provisions on sale and lease orders. I encourage Paul Sweeney to engage with that consultation, which is open until 19 December. I will move as swiftly as I can to heating systems.”
“Paul Sweeney: It is unfortunate, because the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, who led the amendments process at stage 2, had offered to work with me to agree something at stage 3, but that conversation was not facilitated and never took place, so it seems that we have been unable to reach a compromise. I am not trying to knock out existing provisions. Local authorities should be able to pick from a sliding scale of interventions, such as maintenance orders and obligations on landlords. However, if that approach is irreconcilable, the ultimate option would be to move towards compulsory purchase, which is already practised in Glasgow. My idea is about how we formalise that approach and move it beyond Glasgow to ensure that other local authorities do it.”
“Although I absolutely support the principle behind that—namely, that private rented homes should be of good quality—the amendment as proposed could lead to the local authority purchasing a suite of substandard properties rather than enforcing housing standards, which is what it should do and what is currently the case. There is no need for a statutory right for a tenant to request that a local authority exercises powers of compulsory purchase. As Mr Sweeney pointed out, councils have that power and tenants can approach their local authority to make such a request. However, where a landlord has failed to comply with housing standards, it is more appropriate for standards to be enforced than to expect the local authority to purchase the property and move away from the ad hoc approach that is currently taken.”
“I was giving members a courtesy by responding to each of their amendments, but I will skip through Mr Simpson’s remaining amendments, in case he thinks that I am labouring the point. I will move to Mr Sweeney’s amendments on the purchase of poor-quality housing. In amendment 115, he has brought back an amendment that he did not press at stage 2. Amendment 117 seeks to ensure that the regulations are subject to affirmative procedure. On 21 July, I wrote to Mr Sweeney to outline the reasons why the Government’s position has not changed since stage 2. He has broadly explained his view, and his amendment would oblige ministers to “provide for a process by which a tenant may apply to a local authority” to buy the house that they rent if it does not comply with housing standards.”
“Awaab’s law seeks to introduce timescales for the investigation and commencement of works, as opposed to timescales for the completion of works, which, depending on the scale of the work that is involved, could necessarily take more than 14 days. 20:30 Graham Simpson: I have accepted the cabinet secretary’s points about my amendments, so she did not need to labour them. Can she tell us how she plans to introduce Awaab’s law? Will she use regulations or some other means? Màiri McAllan: I am quite sure that that has already been spelled out. The powers that we need to introduce Awaab’s law in the social rented sector were agreed at stage 2, and the powers to implement it in the private rented sector already exist.”
“Amendment 230, in the name of Graham Simpson, would amend the repairing standard in the private rented sector and require private landlords to complete work within 14 days rather than within “a reasonable time”. That would have far-reaching consequences for landlords, including in connection with their property rights. A number of factors, which have already been alluded to, may prevent work from being completed within 14 days, such as sourcing appropriately skilled professional tradespeople, gaining access to the property or the scale of the works. Graham Simpson: Will the minister take an intervention? Màiri McAllan: I will finish this point and then I will happily take an intervention. Creating a system whereby that is the inevitable outcome would be problematic and must be opposed.”
“Amendment 299 would amend the regulation power in connection with the repairing standard in the private rented sector. It would put in the bill certain factors that ministers may make provision in connection with, including the period within which a landlord is to respond to a notification from a tenant and the commencement and completion of that work. An amendment to the enabling power is not necessary to implement Awaab’s law in the private rented sector, which I have already committed to doing. Although I appreciate the rationale behind the amendment, I offer further reassurance that existing plans are under way to implement Awaab’s law. We can do so using existing powers, which are broad in their scope and, importantly, are appropriate.”
“Through amendments 296 and 297, Mr Griffin seeks to amplify any guidance on damp that is issued by the Scottish ministers for the private and social rented sectors. Although I support the reason behind that, the amendments are unnecessary additions to the statute book when ministers have extant powers to issue and vary or revoke guidance. Social and private landlords already have a statutory duty to have regard to guidance in connection with the tolerable standard and repairing standard. As I have explained, the Government has committed to implementing Awaab’s law, and part of that process will involve provision of guidance. Although that renders the amendments unnecessary, I will ensure that members are very closely engaged with that work.”