Clare Adamson
Scottish National Party · Scotland
“That concludes the debate. I wish members, their staff and everyone else who works on the parliamentary campus a wonderful recess. Meeting closed at 18:10. This is a draft Official Report and is subject to correction between publication and archiving, which will take place no later than 35 working days after the date of the meeting.”
“I am reminded again of my discussion with the family of the man on licence in the community. They reported that there is a broken community payback system and that hours have been wasted by a poorly managed scheme.”
“Home detention as part of a wider set of tools to manage a prison population does work, yet the number of prisoners on home detention curfew is lower now than it was 10 years ago. Between 2016 and 2018, an average of 288 prisoners were on home detention at any one time; during the same period ending in 2025, the average number was 87.”
“I call on the Scottish Government to do what Pauline McNeill described clearly and take the action that is needed to clear the backlog in the justice system. We need to reduce the number of people who are held on remand.”
“He committed an act of violence and punishment is appropriate, but we agree with the Scottish Government that to assume prison is a panacea for all crime is to simplify the most complex of issues. As my colleague from across the chamber emphasised today, the aim of our justice system is twofold: to punish and to rehabilitate.”
“We now move to closing speeches. I call Yi-pee—sorry, Yi-pei—Chou Turvey to speak for up to four minutes. 15:50 Yi-pei Chou Turvey: Do not worry, Deputy Presiding Officer—Yi and pei are both pronounced like EE, the phone company, if that makes it easier to remember.”
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“There are questions for the Lord Advocate— yes, she might have recused herself, but the controversy that was caused by her sharing information with the SNP leadership about charges against Murrell nearly a year before they were made public deserves answers. There are already questions about the Lord Advocate’s dual role. There are questions for the Crown Office. Why did it take so long to bring charges against Murrell? After years of investigation, why was the case conveniently not disposed of until merely weeks after the Scottish election? What were the terms and details of any plea deal and why? There are questions for the chief constable on how operation branchform was conducted—the staffing, the cost, the length, the timescale and the force’s dealings with the Crown.”
“I remind members that criminal cases remain active and that the sub judice rule is engaged. Anas Sarwar: I say gently to Mr Greer that that is a shocking case that relates to individual behaviour, but today we are talking about a systematic culture of cover-up and secrecy, and the embezzlement of £400,000 of the SNP’s own supporters’ money. Mr Greer wants to act as a human shield for John Swinney and the SNP—it is for him to answer those questions—but this scandal has implications and lessons for the Scottish Government, for ministers, for Police Scotland, for the Lord Advocate, for the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service, for the Electoral Commission, for the Scottish Legal Aid Board, for His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and for those who administer Short money on behalf of taxpayers.”
“Before we begin the next item of business, I would like to say that the proceedings against Peter Murrell remain active until he has been sentenced. The sub judice rule is engaged, but the Presiding Officer has exercised his discretion to allow the motion and the related amendments to be debated. In their contributions, members should specifically avoid commenting on the matter of sentencing. The sub judice rules will also apply to other cases, and members should be mindful of them. The next item of business is a debate on motion S7M-00294, in the name of Anas Sarwar, on an inquiry to restore public trust in Scottish politics. I invite members who wish to speak in the debate to press their request-to-speak button now. 15:18”
“I inform the chamber that we have received apologies from Lloyd Melville, who had permission to leave the chamber. 17:22”
“Members, we are now running quite a bit behind time. I call Patrick Harvie, to be followed by Rachael Hamilton. Mr Harvie, you have up to six minutes. 16:21”
“I am afraid that you have already had two last sentences. I gave you extra time because you took the interventions. I am sorry, but we will move on. Duncan Massey: I move amendment S7M- 00290.2, to leave out from “, improving” to end and insert: “and improving public services; agrees that lowering the tax burden and bureaucracy are essential to support enterprise, investment, innovation and trade, in order to kickstart the economy, which has stalled due to the high tax regime implemented by the SNP administration; supports action to remove unnecessary barriers to success; acknowledges Scotland’s economic potential, including its key strengths in sectors such as energy, food and drink, financial services, and space, and endorses a continued focus on economic growth as the best way to create a prosperous Scotland where there is hope for a better future, people can thrive and hard work is fairly rewarded.””
“You need to conclude. Duncan Massey: I will conclude. We must reform our benefits system to ensure that work always pays and that opportunity is always there for everyone. We must be a Scotland where young people have opportunities—”
“Thirdly, we need to maximise our oil and gas resources in the short and medium term while planning for a transition that includes nuclear power, with renewables playing a complementary, not dominant, role. We must also ensure that our benefits system—”
“Mr Massey, I am afraid that you are in your closing few seconds. Duncan Massey: I will close here. I agree that Scotland has enormous potential. We are blessed with many business sectors that are generally world class and have great potential to move on. However, we are not realising that potential. Scotland needs to once again be one of the best places in the world to do business, for people to invest and for people to come and work. First, we must fix our tax system—we need to be competitive again. That means getting rid of the six bands and moving back to three, removing the punitive cliff edges and aligning rates to at least the level in the UK. Secondly, we need a pragmatic energy policy that is focused on delivering cheap, abundant and reliable energy.”
“We want a Scotland where, if people work hard, stay here legally, contribute to our country and do the right thing, they can build a better life for themselves and their families.”
“The member is winding up. Thomas Kerr: It is about small business owners who are wondering whether they can afford to take on another member of staff. It is about the parents struggling to pay the rent or mortgage, fill the car and provide for their children. Those people do not need another lecture from politicians. They need a Government that trusts them with their own money. Every pound left in the pocket of a hard- working Scot is a pound that can be spent in a local shop, invested in businesses, saved for a home or used to support a family. That is how the economy grows. It may be hard for the SNP to understand, but it is not rocket science. For too long, Scotland has been held back by a political culture that believes that Government always knows best. It does not. The people we are elected to serve know best.”
“Members, can we hear the speaker, please? Thomas Kerr: A job equals a growing economy and the opportunity for people to build a better future for themselves and their families. Government cannot create wealth by taking more and more off those who produce it. Wealth is created by workers, shopkeepers, tradesmen and businesses that take risks, create jobs and contribute to communities, and that is why—”
“Shirley-Anne Somerville: Will the member take an intervention? Thomas Kerr: No. I have took enough interventions, thank you. A job equals a growing economy—[Interruption.] I am loving this, Deputy Presiding Officer.”
“Shirley-Anne Somerville: Will the member recognise that 66 per cent of children living in relative poverty in 2014 to 2017 lived in a working household and that that figure stood at 75 per cent from 2022 to 2025? This is not just about work. Work is important, but the state needs to be there to protect people who are on the lowest incomes. Thomas Kerr: I acknowledge that and I also acknowledge that it is thanks to the policy of the cabinet secretary that the people she just described are paying more tax in Scotland than they would in the rest of the UK. I want to see them keep that money in their pockets. [Interruption.] Members are heckling, but nurses, teachers, doctors, workies and small business owners pay more tax in Scotland than anywhere else in the UK. That is thanks to this SNP Government.”
“We have reached a point where workies, nurses, teachers, small business owners and countless ordinary workers are paying more tax in Scotland than they would elsewhere in the United Kingdom. People work overtime only to see more of their pay disappear. Nobody deserves to have the taxman at their door when they have worked their backside off to provide for their family. The route out of poverty has never been dependency, and it has never been creating more barriers between aspiration and achievement. It has always been—and always will be—work. A job equals a growing economy— Alan Brown: Will the member take an intervention now? Shirley-Anne Somerville: Will the member take an intervention? Thomas Kerr: I will take an intervention from the cabinet secretary.”
“It was instilled in me as a child by two amazing, hard-working role models I had when I was growing up—Tam and Margaret Kerr, my grandparents. They made me who I am and taught me that hard work is not a slogan—it is vital in life. They understood that, if people want to provide a good life for their family, they have to earn it. Nothing came easy and nothing was guaranteed, and those values helped to shape me. They taught me that the dignity of work matters, that ambition is not something to be ashamed of and that, when people work hard, save hard and play by the rules, they deserve to keep more of what they earn. That is why I am speaking today, because the truth is that Scotland has become a country where, increasingly, work is punished rather than rewarded.”
“Members, we will hear the person who has the floor, which is Mr Kerr. Thomas Kerr: It is up to me whether I take an intervention. I ain’t interested in irrelevant nonsense from a has-been party. I know all too well what it is like to grow up in poverty. As many know, I grew up in one of Scotland’s most deprived communities—Cranhill in Glasgow’s east end. That community saw at first hand the devastation that arrogant politicians, many of whom still sit in this chamber, caused to communities such as mine, where poverty and addiction were normal and social mobility was a dream, not a reality. That is why I got involved in politics—to ensure that no child grew up believing that they could not achieve their potential simply because of their background. That leads me into this debate, because I know that work pays.”
“I remind members that it is up to the member who is speaking whether to take an intervention. Thomas Kerr: It was interesting to see a leadership bid in this debate. If I were Mr Sarwar, I would watch out. It is a privilege to speak in the debate and to follow Kim Schmulian, my friend and colleague, who made an impassioned speech. I cannot wait to see her contribution to the chamber over the next five years. I know all too well what it is like to grow up in poverty—”
“I remind members—gently, this time—that those who have contributed to a debate should be in the chamber for the closing speeches. We move to the first of those, which is the first speech in the chamber by Andrew Baxter. 16:20”
“Good afternoon. Our first item of business is a debate on motion S7M-00228, in the name of Angela Constance, on investing, protecting and renewing Scotland’s national health service. I invite members who wish to speak in the debate to press their request-to-speak buttons now. 14:00”
“I move, That the Parliament welcomes Scotland’s Summer of Sport programme, which aims to capitalise on the landmark summer of international sport taking place this year, with Scotland’s men’s football team competing in the 2026 FIFA World Cup and the Commonwealth Games taking place in Glasgow in July; recognises that it will provide opportunities for children and young people to take part in free and low- cost activities across the country; believes that providing positive, inclusive and inspiring sporting experiences for children and young people is one of the best things the people of Scotland can do to support physical, mental, and social health, and hopes that these experiences will encourage lifelong participation in sport, whether through playing, or as future captains, coaches and volunteers across the sporting sector. 15:48”
“The minister is in her last few seconds, Mr MacGregor. Maree Todd: It is about ensuring that the child who attends a session this summer has the opportunity to still be active in a year’s time and throughout their life. If we get it right, the impact will be felt long after this summer’s event. This has the potential to be a truly transformative summer— a summer when inspiration leads to participation, participation leads to habit, and habit leads to lasting change. The message of this summer is clear: game on.”
“Thank you, cabinet secretary. My apologies to the members I could not call in the time that we had allotted. Summer of Sport”
“The cabinet secretary will now take questions on the issues that were raised in her statement. I intend to allow about 20 minutes for questions, after which we will move to the next item of business. It would be helpful if members who wish to ask a question were to press their request-to-speak buttons now.”
“The rapid evolution of technology means that our thinking must also adapt. The Government is clear that a public health approach is appropriate to respond to those changes. Creating phone-free learning environments is an important part of that holistic approach. Our schools should be safe and nurturing environments for our children and young people, where they can learn free from the distractions of mobile phones. Teachers will benefit from that, too. I look forward to working constructively with members on that issue and the wider issue of freeing our children from intensifying online harm.”
“I was very interested in the comments of the former UK safeguarding minister, who, in her resignation letter to the Prime Minister, said that she knew of solutions that could end the ability of children in the UK to take naked pictures of themselves “on every phone and device in the country.” If that technology exists, it must be rolled out without delay. The Minister for Children, Young People and The Promise, Siobhian Brown, has written to the new safeguarding minister to ask about that technology, to confirm our support for such a move and to reiterate our desire to work closely with the UK Government on the important issue of safeguarding. Our children and young people are growing up in an online world that was unimaginable 20 years ago when I was at school. I recall the first smartphones emerging then.”
“We can take that action—and are taking it now—but Scotland does not have the powers to act in areas such as the regulation of internet services. We will take steps to push the UK Government to take more action, including ensuring that Ofcom uses its powers to hold technology companies and social media providers to account. Regulation has fallen substantially behind where it needs to be. We will advocate for a social media levy on companies, to be invested in programmes to support safer online engagement for young people, thereby improving mental health and supporting online literacy.”
“We will now build on that work by funding a national public health campaign to make young people and their families aware of how to use social media, screen time and online time in a safe and healthy manner, which might mean not using it at all. We need families to be aware of the harmful consequences and the risks to mental health, sleep and body image of online time, as well as the benefits of spending time with friends and family in real life. Parents must be supported in that effort and never shamed. We will also use the example of Ireland’s successful pause before you post campaign to make parents and carers aware of the potential harms of what is called sharenting—sharing images and details of their children on social media that can be pieced together and so inadvertently create a digital footprint for young people.”
“We need more concerted action to force social media and tech giants to do more to protect our children. That is a fight that I will not shy away from. We have also already taken action to provide guidance for parents of younger children and babies by publishing advice on screen time on our Parent Club website for parents of children aged under 5. That advice is in line with the World Health Organization’s guidance. We also continue to fund resources such as the Mind Yer Time website, which gives children and young people advice on social media use, screen time and sleep, and on the impact of all those factors on their body image and mental wellbeing.”
“Taking such an approach means engaging the whole school community so that schools can create the conditions to get things right for school wellbeing, learning outcomes and long-term health. Schools are only one part of the solution, and I will highlight action that we are taking to support parents and young people to ensure that social media companies are held to account. Although the main policy and legislative levers, such as measures that can be taken under the Online Safety Act 2023, are held by the United Kingdom Government, in Scotland we are taking all available steps to act here and now while we wait for the UK Government to step up. Let me be clear: we support the UK Government’s consultation on the banning of social media for under-16s. However, we do not think that that will solve the problem of online harms.”
“That spectrum includes—but is not limited to—loss of concentration and the waste of precious childhood years, at one end, and it goes right through to the absorption of harmful and often violent, misogynistic or radicalising content, incitement to self-harm, extreme bullying and, in some cases, grooming. Taking a public health approach means being clear about such harms and taking a holistic approach to addressing them. Therefore, when considering the impact of mobile phones in schools, we must think not only about distraction in the classroom or bullying during the school day but about the higher risk of depression, anxiety, poor sleep and poor health in adolescence that can arise from smartphone use in general.”
“The guidance will set out expectations for key areas, including the engagement with the whole school community—pupils, staff and families—that will be required if we are to build support for such policies. I am pleased to inform members that the updated guidance will be published by the end of this month to support schools in considering their approach from the beginning of the next term. This issue rests within the wider public health approach to online harm that the Government is committed to taking. We recognise the spectrum of harm that is associated with the significant intensification that we have seen in children’s and young people’s use of online platforms and smartphones.”
“Therefore, to signal our intent that schools should move to introduce restrictions while we prepare legislation, we are working with education authorities to refresh our current guidance to support and encourage more schools to introduce restrictions ahead of a change in the law. We are working with the Scottish advisory group on relationships and behaviour in schools so that the updated guidance will be informed by the views of organisations including the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, the Association of Directors of Education in Scotland, the main teaching unions and representatives of parents and carers. As will be crucial, it will also be informed by the views of young people.”
“We also want to understand the range of views from parents and carers, school staff, education authorities and interested organisations, which will help to shape our legislation and allow us to deal with multiple complex issues. For example, as our current guidance makes clear, there will be occasions when exemptions are required, such as where young people use their phones to monitor medical conditions or where young carers need to maintain contact with home. Schools that have already implemented phone- free policies per our guidance are managing exemptions well. We will fully explore and understand all those issues to inform sensible legislation. Legislation is the only way in which we can mandate learning environments to be phone free. Until then, existing guidance allows all schools to introduce such a policy now.”
“It is clear about allowing no phones during school hours on school grounds, which include the campus, the classrooms, the corridors and the cafeteria. The rules for the school’s young people are clear: see it, hear it, lose it. When I spoke to the staff and the young people, which I did separately, they highlighted the benefits of that policy, including fewer distractions during class, reduced conflict among pupils and between staff and pupils, and more interaction among peers. The young people reflected on how much they welcomed the break from otherwise addictive apps and content. I want to hear from more pupils through our consultation. Scotland has been a pioneer in the advancement of rights for children and young people, and it is vital that their views be front and centre in the decisions that we take.”
“We have listened carefully to calls from parents, carers and teachers to ensure greater consistency across the country so as to support children’s learning and development. We continue to hear concerns about classroom disruption where restrictions are absent and about the wider impacts on pupils’ wellbeing of excessive screen time, exposure to harmful online content and the effects of online bullying. That is why we will shortly publish a consultation on legislation to make our learning environments phone free, thereby meeting our commitment to do so within the first 100 days of this Government’s being in office. Last week, in one of my first school visits as Cabinet Secretary for Education, Culture and Gaelic, I went to James Gillespie’s high school, where I met staff and young people to discuss the school’s mobile phone policy.”
“I am pleased that there is cross-party consensus on the issue and that we can work together on it. We owe it to our pupils and teachers to do so, and to create an environment that is conducive to learning and teaching. This Government has already been clear that any school or education authority that wishes to introduce restrictions on mobile phones in its classrooms or across the school estate will have ministers’ full support. That is the position set out in our national guidance, which we introduced in 2024 in response to the 2023 report on behaviour in Scottish schools that highlighted the disruption caused by mobile phones in our classrooms. Since we introduced that guidance, many schools and education authorities have acted to restrict the use of mobile phones, and I welcome that. However, there is too much variability.”
“The next item of business is a statement by Màiri McAllan on phone-free classrooms. The cabinet secretary will take questions at the end of her statement and there should be no interventions or interruptions. 15:02 The Cabinet Secretary for Education, Culture and Gaelic (Màiri McAllan): My priority is to ensure that our school environments support pupils to thrive and to reach their full potential. There is no doubt that new and evolving technologies can provide opportunities for learning and communication. However, they also bring the risk of a spectrum of harm. We need to recognise the negative impact of mobile phones and screen time and, frankly, to protect our children and young people from that. That is why now is the time for phone-free learning environments.”
“We should feel the benefit of being a net exporter of oil, gas and electricity, yet we know that our bills are going to go up once again. It is time that Scotland’s energy was in Scotland’s hands, so that our resources can work for the people of Scotland.”
“Please wind up, Mr Brown. Alan Brown: We are talking about money that should have been allocated to the renewable supply chain for development and to energy efficiency measures to tackle fuel poverty. It beggars belief that energy-rich Scotland has people living in fuel poverty while paying some of the highest energy bills in Europe. Zonal pricing was an option that could bring down bills, but that was immediately ruled out by Westminster because it might increase bills in the south-east of England, an area that already has lower bills. No, we could not allow there to be any impact in the south-east of England, which is the richest area in the UK. It is clear that Westminster does not develop energy policies with Scotland in mind.”
“Mr Brown is about to wind up, Mr Massey. Duncan Massey: The member said that he would take an intervention, and I would like to make a point in relation to nuclear power. South Korea has built eight nuclear reactors at a cost of $5 billion to $6 billion each, with an average construction time of 8.5 years. I would like the member’s opinion on that. Alan Brown: I draw the member’s attention to research that shows that, out of 180 nuclear stations that were included in the study, 175 came in at double the expected cost and, on average, took 64 per cent longer to build than was predicted. I do not take on board the member’s isolated information.”
“Finally, in the time that I have, I note that the costs remind us that it is really important that we look at the overall budget for the provision. In the little exchange that took place between Bob Doris and Stephen Kerr about earmarking or ballpark figures, the latter was absolutely correct, as the word “earmarking” implies that the money has been found. The Institute for Fiscal Studies has said that it is far from apparent where the money for the policy is coming from. We are facing a fiscal deficit of £5 billion by 2029-30, and we are looking at additional spending of £1.5 billion by the end of that period. Bob Doris: Will the member give way? Michael Marra: I am afraid that the Presiding Officer is nodding at me, so I will have to end my remarks there, but I thank members for this initial debate.”
“The policy design questions have already been answered by the Government. The Institute for Fiscal Studies has pointed out that the application of means testing will limit the participation increase. My plea is that we should define what we want to achieve so that we can design the policy appropriately. That is the only way in which we will get it right. There is a growing consensus that the issues around the PVI sector must be dealt with. However, I caution the cabinet secretary in this area. As long as the Government takes the dysfunctional approach to local government that it has done over the past 20 years, the situation will continue, because local government, when it is pushed into making cuts, will make such decisions.”
“Yes. Michael Marra: I give way to Mr Kerr. Stephen Kerr: I am grateful to Michael Marra for giving way, but let us be absolutely clear that workforce skills are one of the key levers in improving productivity in this country. We are talking about a significant proportion of the population—mainly women—who have skills to bring to the workplace. I reject Michael Marra’s rebuttal of my economic theory on how we improve productivity, because skilled workforces make all the difference in the world. Michael Marra: I know that Mr Kerr shares my concern for the education system in this country and agrees that we want it to be improved and returned to its previous glories. Scotland’s decline in international league tables has been a cause of great concern for many people in the country.”
“You must come to a conclusion. Stephen Kerr: Yes, I will. Where is the fully costed delivery model? That is my question. In conclusion, I say to ministers today that they should not be performative—[Laughter.] We have had enough of them congratulating themselves and enough of progressive posturing without practical delivery. Members can all laugh, but this is the most performative Government that they will ever experience. The Government must tell Parliament how the policy will be paid for and delivered, and when families that are trapped by failures of the current system will finally see meaningful change, because parents need childcare that works.”
“No. Stephen Kerr: All right. I apologise, cabinet secretary. I would be delighted to continue the conversation in another way. In my final few seconds, where is—”
“Where is the plan to recruit, train and retain the workforce that is needed to make that credible? Where is the implementation timetable? Ministers say that implementation will happen over the course of the session. Those are fine words, but we in the Opposition parties have learned to interpret such words, because, frankly, they can mean just about anything that the ministers choose them to mean. They are fine words, but where are the milestones? How will Parliament judge whether delivery is actually happening? Màiri McAllan: Will the member give way? Stephen Kerr: Yes, I would be delighted.”
“That is not ideology; it is practical economics and common sense. In the time that I have left, I will very quickly go to the questions that I wish to ask the cabinet secretary, because this has to be more than a press release or a few lines in a manifesto. Where is the detail? Ministers promised support for every child, but what does that mean? Is that full provision for everyone, or is it something that is tapered according to income? Will support be prioritised for households where both parents work? What exactly are ministers proposing? It is not clear. Where is the workforce plan that was mentioned earlier? A third of nurseries already report staff shortages. We cannot announce a huge childcare expansion and simply hope that staff will appear.”
“As I said, those are the arguments that the Scottish Conservatives have made, and, in response to Keith Brown’s intervention, I say that I do not repent of those at all, because those policies matter. We are not talking simply about social policy or economic policy; we are putting those elements together and are advocating a childcare system that works, that enables fathers and mothers—both parents in the household—to return to work, increase their hours, pursue careers, support their families and contribute to economic growth. I know that economic growth is anathema to the Scottish Greens, but I am delighted to see a consensus forming across the chamber on the need for it. More people in work means higher productivity, stronger businesses, a broader tax base and stronger public finances to sustain the services that we all rely on.”
“I remind members that nicknames should not be used in the chamber. Ivan McKee: In order to help Stephen Kerr with his arithmetic, I point out that any cuts that Conservative members are proposing are in addition to the measures that we are already taking forward. That needs to be factored in when considering the impact on public service funding. Stephen Kerr: Well, there is already an identified £5 billion gap in the Government’s sums, so I look forward to Ivan McKee bringing forward his radical proposals for public sector reform that, as I said a moment ago, mean that we do more with less—I hope that he recognises that valuable economic rule.”