John Mason
Independent · Scotland
“I noted press coverage just yesterday of the vacancy level for both primary and secondary teachers in the Highland Council area, yet I get complaints from young teachers that they cannot get a job in Glasgow.”
“I thank Jamie Halcro Johnston for securing the debate and other members for their kind words. Many people in Scotland’s urban areas and central belt still care deeply for our remote, rural and island communities.”
“[Laughter.] I was proved correct during Covid, when it was treated as part of the mainland. I can understand the desire to have causeways, bridges or tunnels linking islands to each other or to the mainland. That makes access to a range of services much easier, from shopping to medical services, weddings and funerals.”
“Land mass should be a factor, too. This is my last speech in Parliament, so I thank all those who make this Parliament work, including fellow MSPs—and especially those who are leaving. We are much smaller than Westminster, and that is a big advantage in my opinion.”
“In my opinion, that should be a higher priority than dualling the A9. I do not often agree with Scottish Land & Estates, but I agree with some of the key points in its briefing for the debate. Tackling depopulation in rural areas has to be a top priority; and as it says, “if rural Scotland does not thrive, Scotland does not thrive”.”
“That has clearly got me into trouble at times, but it has certainly been a huge privilege to serve here. I conclude by thanking you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and your two colleagues.”
The complete record
Every one of 652 lines we hold for John Mason, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 11 of 14.
“It is important to understand that denying people access to voluntary assisted dying does not prevent assisted deaths; it merely pushes them underground. Dr Amanda Ward, a global expert in this field, documented in her PhD thesis numerous examples of amateur assisted deaths in Scotland, some of which were horrific. Relatives of people who help a loved one to end their suffering end up in jail, and deaths occur without there being any safeguards or professional support in place. That is the alternative to the bill: a system that fails the dying, doctors and the law. In essence, what the bill proposes is far safer than the status quo. On the question of palliative care, there is no conflict—it is not an either/or choice. Public support for that choice is clear.”
“Liam McArthur: Does Rona Mackay accept that the burden issue is genuine and a sentiment that is keenly felt by people at the end of life, but at the moment, no safeguards or guardrails are in place for those who feel that they are a burden? Rona Mackay: I will come on to that shortly. An additional safeguard that the bill introduces is a new criminal offence of coercion, with a sentence of up to 14 years, which no previous such bill has included. Mental capacity and freedom from outside influence are confirmed at every stage, and the person can change their mind at any time. Doctors are already trained to identify coercion in contexts such as abortion care and treatment withdrawal. That duty exists—it is not unique to the bill but a standard part of ethical medical practice.”
“I take the member’s point about coercion. Does she accept that, for some people, the issue is not coercion but that they feel that they are a burden? Although the family might not see them as a burden, they themselves feel that they are a burden. Rona Mackay: That might be the case, but the bill details that two independent doctors have to say that a person is terminally ill for assisted dying to happen, so we cannot wipe out the bill’s benefit on that basis. Liam McArthur: Will the member give way? Rona Mackay: I will just carry on, thank you. Oh, sorry—I beg your pardon. Yes, I will take the intervention.”
“The Presiding Officer: The final question is, that motion S6M-17452, in the name of Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, on designation of a lead committee, be agreed to. Motion agreed to, That the Parliament agrees that the Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee be designated as the lead committee in consideration of the Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill at stage 1. The Presiding Officer: That concludes decision time. Mental Health Awareness Week 2025”
“Motion agreed to, That the Parliament recognises the actions outlined in the Programme for Government 2025-26 to grow the Scottish economy and eradicate child poverty; further recognises that these missions are inextricably linked, with a strong economy providing access to fair work opportunities and supporting investment in public services and ambitious climate and anti-poverty measures; notes that, over the year ahead, the actions within the Programme for Government will build on Scotland’s economic strengths to address the additional challenges the country faces from economic volatility, capturing the economic opportunities ahead to drive improvements in living standards, reduce child poverty and build a strong foundation for the future, to weather the global economic uncertainty; welcomes the Scottish Government’s continued focus on delivering action across the drivers of child poverty reduction, to increase earned incomes, reduce the costs of living and maximise incomes from social security and benefits in kind, and commits to working together to grow the economy, and deliver on the 2030 child poverty targets unanimously supported by the Scottish Parliament.”
“On a point of order, Presiding Officer— The Presiding Officer: I confirm that your vote has been recorded, Mr Mason. For Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Rona Mackay] Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Jamie Hepburn] McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) Against Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Abstentions Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Alba) The Presiding Officer: The result of the division on motion S6M-17437, in the name of Kate Forbes, on programme for government— building the best future for Scotland, is: For 59, Against 55, Abstentions 1.”
“As the Scottish Federation of Housing Associations points out in its briefing, “more and better housing would make a major contribution to reducing child poverty”. If we are serious about tackling the housing emergency that the Parliament and several councils have declared, we have to put housing right at the top of the shopping list, and good projects such as dualling the A9 should be postponed. We should take action of that kind. I question the point of saying that we have a housing emergency if it makes no difference to how we spend our money. I urge the Government to take action and put its money where its mouth is.”
“It is not automatic that poorer folk will benefit from a growing economy. I was encouraged to hear the First Minister say in his statement yesterday that he wants to see “a fairer Scotland, with Scotland’s growing wealth shared more fairly”—[Official Report, 6 May 2025; c 15.] However, I am less clear about how he proposes to do that. The next big theme in the programme for government is eradicating child poverty. I suggest that, if we are to eradicate child poverty, we need to increase taxation. Clearly, we cannot do that in the current year—in 2025-26—but, during the next 12 months, we should certainly push ahead with plans to replace the council tax and, hopefully, introduce a wealth tax. How we spend the money that we have is also crucial.”
“Other European countries such as Denmark and Norway have higher tax rates and better quality public services, and that scenario can be attractive to businesses. While I am talking about other countries, I note that we should welcome investment from overseas, but it worries me how much of our whisky and salmon production industries are foreign owned. I am not sure that we have the right balance on that score. Another factor that is relevant to growing our economy is whether we have enough people of working age. Some of the projections by the Scottish Fiscal Commission make concerning reading. Our population continues to age, so it is difficult to avoid the fact that we are going to need immigration for the foreseeable future. Growing the economy is fine, but we need to share out the benefits in a better way.”
“I am certainly supportive of encouraging the economy to grow. There are many factors involved in making that happen, including having enough workers with the appropriate skills and making Scotland an attractive place to live and do business. Scotland is well thought of by many people around the world. It is seen as an attractive place to live, with world-class universities, much innovative research, a good environment, high- quality food and drink, great scenery and golf courses—and the list goes on. Yesterday, the Finance and Public Administration Committee was reminded by the Scottish Human Rights Commission that Governments have a duty to maximise the resources that are available to them and not only to make cuts when they are in a tight financial situation. Let us also remember that Scotland and the UK are low-tax countries.”
“That is at a time when the tourism sector is struggling with business rates, the national insurance increase, the regulation of short-term lets and, of course, the coming visitor levy. The Scottish Government can make choices on the great majority of those things, but the choices that it has made so far have been to lump on additional regulation and taxation in sectors that are now struggling. That is not how we grow the economy. At the same time, previous SNP decisions on rent controls have resulted in the loss of what is estimated to be in excess of £3 billion of investment in the build-to-rent sector.”
“At the business in the Parliament conference the week before last, there were questions about matters that are under the Scottish Government’s control, including taxation, business rates and the fact that Barnett consequentials from reductions in rates for hospitality, retail and leisure south of the border have not been passed on for three years in succession. We had questions about skills, apprenticeships and housing, which are all matters of interest to business and are all areas where economic growth is being held back, and all of them are in the devolved space. On Friday, I spoke at a tourism conference where we heard from VisitScotland that, while international visitor numbers are doing well, there is a significant decline in the domestic market.”
“If Labour had signalled in advance of the election what it was going to do, whether on national insurance, the farmers tax or cutting the winter fuel payments, people might have been happier to live with that, but none of that was promised in advance of the election. No wonder people are so angry. It is no surprise that the growth forecasts for the UK economy have been substantially downgraded in the period since Labour came to power and since Rachel Reeves’s budget. That said, we cannot exempt the Scottish National Party Government from criticism, as I am sure the Deputy First Minister would expect.”
“Taxation is now the number 1 concern for Scottish businesses, overtaking inflation, and rising labour and energy costs continue to be major factors. Overall, it is a very worrying picture. Kicking in just at the beginning of last month was the UK Labour Government’s increase in employer national insurance contributions, which is literally a tax on jobs. Kate Forbes: I do not wish to pre-empt what the member will say, but does he agree that one of the primary problems with the hike in national insurance contributions is that the Labour Government has no mandate for it as it was not even in its manifesto? Murdo Fraser: I do not disagree at all with that point from the Deputy First Minister.”
“Overall, the UK economy grew in the same month by just 0.5 per cent. The output of 11 of 14 sectors of the Scottish economy fell, with the services sector shrinking overall by 0.6 per cent. Too many people of working age are not working, and we have a higher percentage of people who are economically inactive compared with the UK as a whole. That poor economic output is reflected in collapsing levels of business confidence. Just last month, Scottish Chambers of Commerce published its quarterly economic indicator in conjunction with the Fraser of Allander Institute. It shows business confidence evaporating across key sectors, with sharp drops recorded for tourism, manufacturing and construction compared with the same period last year.”
“Will the member give way? Murdo Fraser: I will in a second. We should all affirm that as a set of outcomes. At least, I hope that we would all affirm that— perhaps Mr Mason is about to disappoint me. John Mason: The member says that growth reduces poverty. Would he accept that that is not automatic and that we have to take action to move the wealth around? Murdo Fraser: We have to create the growth first; we have to create the wealth first. That needs to be the first priority. If we do not have the wealth, we cannot share it around. However, the reality is that growth has been too slow both across the UK and in Scotland. In the latest month for which we have figures, which is February 2025, Scotland’s onshore gross domestic product is estimated to have fallen by 0.2 per cent.”
“The member is looking only at UK taxes. Does she accept that Britain and Scotland are low-tax economies compared with many countries in Europe? Rachael Hamilton: John Swinney has imposed the highest tax burden on Scots on record, which is costing Scots £1.7 billion. [Interruption.] I am not quite sure whether the First Minister wants to intervene. The Deputy Presiding Officer: I was not aware that the First Minister had sought an intervention. Rachael Hamilton: Okay. Bills must be brought down, First Minister. Families need a break from paying more of the burden of tax that you have put on them. The Deputy Presiding Officer: Always speak through the chair, Ms Hamilton. Rachael Hamilton: The problem with paying more and getting less is not just about higher bills—”
“The First Minister spoke in his statement about “a fairer Scotland, with Scotland’s growing wealth shared more fairly”. Is he thinking of a more progressive council tax or property tax, or perhaps about a wealth tax? The First Minister: The point in principle is being applied in the Government’s approach to taxation and has always underpinned that approach. I want to ensure that we continue with measures that support those who suffer from and live in poverty so that we can assist them out of poverty and can create opportunities for them to thrive. Of course, we need well-financed public services to be able to do so.”
“I accept that food management and so on is not part of the cabinet secretary’s remit, but can she assure us that there will be some cross- Government thinking and a cross-Government approach to the deer issue, as it is both a traffic and a food issue? Fiona Hyslop: I am pleased to point out that my ministerial colleague Jim Fairlie has responsibility for both agriculture and connectivity, so I assure John Mason that cross-Government work is taking place on the issue across a number of areas. It is a very serious matter, as anyone who has been involved in an accident with a deer will know. Obviously, with the increased number of deer, there is continuous vigilance on the issue. The Deputy Presiding Officer: Humza Yousaf is joining us remotely. Climate Debt (Global South) 8.”
“Such a way forward would probably not require legislation and would be considerably cheaper than what is proposed in the bill. Both the minister and Liz Smith have said that they are open to discussing the funding issue, yet, seven weeks after the committee report was published, I am not clear whether there have been any developments or a suggested compromise. I will be reluctant to vote against the bill if I am the only MSP who disagrees with its general principles. As I have explained, I disagree because those principles are effectively all about money. As I trust that I have made clear, I have reservations. I stand by the alternative wording for paragraph 248 of the committee’s stage 1 report on the bill, and I do not agree with the general principles of the bill.”
“The AHDS said that, if an extra £30 million to £40 million became available, it would want support for pupils with additional support needs to be prioritised. Another issue that witnesses brought to the committee was the question of whether teachers would continue to volunteer as readily for residential trips if such trips became a statutory requirement. We have heard about that already in the debate. My suggestion would be for money to be targeted at those families or schools that really need it. It seems to me that even a smaller amount such as £5 million or £10 million in a central fund, a bit like the pupil equity fund, could enable quite a lot of school pupils to attend residentials who currently cannot do so.”
“We have not been told what that would amount to, but it seems clear that a fair chunk of the £30 million to £40 million would not be spent on helping residential centres or benefiting children; it would, in effect, be spent on reimbursing better-off families. Much as I have a lot of respect for Liz Smith and her ideals, I find it a little bit ironic that the Conservatives, who want to means test university places, are arguing against means testing for school residential places and want them to be a universal benefit. In addition, the committee heard evidence from the Association of Headteachers and Deputes in Scotland. Carol Mochan: Will John Mason give way? John Mason: I have only four minutes—I am sorry.”
“That is topped up or heavily subsidised by school fundraising, grants, PEF money and so on. However, the bill would do away with such parental contributions and wider school fundraising, which I note we heard in evidence can also be a beneficial experience for young people. The bill would mean that we pay not only for young people who currently cannot afford to go on a residential trip but for the children of richer families who can afford it and who currently do pay. Oliver Mundell: Will John Mason take an intervention? John Mason: I am afraid that I cannot; I have only four minutes.”
“As the Education, Children and Young People Committee’s self-appointed accountant, my reservations about the bill are primarily financial. That is not peripheral to the bill; it is absolutely central. The bill is about finding £30 million to £40 million extra from already stretched budgets. Some bills that come before us in Parliament, such as the Scottish Languages Bill, might seek to make major changes to structures or procedures, but cost is a relatively minor part of achieving that. However, in this case, meeting the general principles of the bill is all about the money. The key principle is that the public purse should pay the cost of sending virtually all young people on a residential experience. As I understand it, a fair number of families currently fund the cost of their children attending such a residential experience.”
“It is fair to say—we have heard this in the debate—that the whole Education, Children and Young People Committee was enthusiastic and totally convinced that residential outdoor education is hugely positive and extremely beneficial for almost all young people. Several members on the committee referred to good residential experiences that they had had while at school—we have heard that again today—and the committee visited Broomlee in West Linton, which is operated by Scottish Outdoor Education Centres. I had previously stayed at SOEC’s other centres at Dounans, near Aberfoyle, and Belmont, near Meigle. The buildings seem to have changed very little since the 1970s, highlighting one of the needs of those outdoor centres, which are operated by the third sector: several require a lot of capital investment.”
“If it is abundantly clear, over a long period of time and on a universal basis, that there is one aspect of the educational experience that returns the best results and outcomes, why on earth would we not make it happen? I move, That the Parliament agrees to the general principles of the Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill. The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call Douglas Ross to speak on behalf of the Education, Children and Young People Committee. 15:33”
“I respect the opinions of representatives of the teaching unions and the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, and I will come back to deal with many of their concerns, as well as those that Mr Greer raised, quite rightly, at the committee during the stage 1 process. The bill is not about party politics. It is about what is in the best interests of our young people in the post-Covid age when so many indicators tell us that they face more challenges than ever before. I introduced the bill after many years of personal experience of watching and working with young people and teachers in the outdoor environment and after very lengthy examination of the evidence, for which I owe my staff and the bill team so much. I have spent most of my parliamentary career immersed in the world of education.”
“Broadly speaking, there are enough bed spaces, and we have a brand-new centre in Aberdeenshire, but the sector needs greater demand in order to boost its income. It has been asserted that it is difficult to define residential outdoor education and to align it with the curriculum. I struggle with that view because— to pick up Martin Whitfield’s point—I cannot think of anything that better aligns with the curriculum for excellence than experiences that demonstrably prove that youngsters become successful learners, confident individuals, effective contributors and responsible citizens as a result.”
“It found that, for every £1 that is invested in outward bound programmes, there is a return of between £5 and £15 in societal value. For me, that is a very powerful finding that shows that such funding represents an important long-term investment. I turn to the vital importance of ASN provision. I give huge credit to Pam Duncan-Glancy and several of our outdoor centres for the work that they have done to ensure that young people with special needs are properly catered for, because if the bill does not deliver for them, it will not deliver its intentions. The current provision is better than it has been in the past, but there is still an awful lot of work to do. I will address many of those concerns in my closing speech. A related point is the infrastructure of some centres, which will be an issue whether or not the bill passes.”
“Will the member take an intervention? Liz Smith: I will not just now, if Mr Mason does not mind. He has asked some interesting and important questions about the bill, and I will come back to them. I have suggested to ministers that they should look at alternative models of funding, such as public trust models, partnerships between the public and private sectors—which I know some ministers are keen to look at in other areas of policy development, including infrastructure funding—and models that are used by Rethink Ireland and Inspire Scotland. The Parliament often debates and measures outcomes, so, on that basis, let me repeat the evidence that was collected by the Outward Bound Trust across eight countries, including the UK.”
“Graeme Dey: With respect to Mr Briggs, that reflects the fact that minds were made up and were never going to be changed, regardless of the assurances that the cabinet secretary gave. If members have nothing better to do with their time, I invite them to re-read the OR, which makes it clear that those points were answered. I reinforce the point that the order is routine in nature. More than 15 such orders have been made since 2005 for a range of different public bodies in”
“The fact that three non- Scottish National Party committee members felt that they were able to back the order demonstrates that to be the case. The order will enable discussions to begin with the Ethical Standards Commissioner’s office, which will ensure that the appointments process can conclude in time for qualifications Scotland’s establishment. Given that the process cannot begin until the order has been approved and has come into force— Miles Briggs: Will the minister give way? Graeme Dey: Yes, I will give way. Miles Briggs: Does the minister accept that the timetabling would work much better if we had the opportunity to get the Parliament’s view at stage 2? We could then see what the board would look like and ministers could progress the work instead of rushing it without taking the Parliament’s view on it at all, as they have done?”
“Pam Duncan-Glancy: The cabinet secretary gave a significant commitment to members across parties that she would be very open to changing the legislation, although we are yet to see whether that is the case. That would include in relation to the board’s composition, and we do not yet know what the composition is going to be. Can the minister therefore set out to the Parliament who he is going to appoint to the board, what requirements he will have for them, what background he is looking for and what the organisation’s functions will be? Graeme Dey: I re-read the Official Report of the committee session before coming to the chamber—all 40 minutes’ worth of it—and it was quite clear that each of the members’ legitimate concerns were addressed.”
“The order’s purpose is routine, as was previously discussed at the Education, Children and Young People Committee, which supported it by a clear majority. It will ensure that qualifications Scotland is treated as a regulated body under the Public Bodies and Public Appointments etc (Scotland) Act 2003 before it is established in legislation. The order enables ministers to begin the process of making regulated appointments to the board of qualifications Scotland, in line with the “Code of Practice for Ministerial Appointments to Public Bodies in Scotland”. The order ensures that the recruitment of members is overseen by the Ethical Standards Commissioner and guarantees that the appointments are made on merit, using methods that are fair and open.”
“The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills stated—I agree with her on this point—that she does not want the Education (Scotland) Bill to be a Government bill but wants it to be a cross-party, cross-Parliament bill. However, at the first hurdle, the Government has now failed on that test. That is why, at decision time this evening, we will abstain on the SSI. 17:34 The Minister for Higher and Further Education; and Minister for Veterans (Graeme Dey): The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills is representing Scotland at the international summit on the teaching profession, along with the Educational Institute of Scotland and ministers and unions from across the United Kingdom. That is why I will respond on her behalf today.”
“Does the member agree that it is quite normal for legislation to go through at the same time as a provisional board is approved? From memory, I think that that happened with the Scottish Fiscal Commission. Does he accept that the Opposition has been pushing for changes in education but now seems to be slowing things down? Miles Briggs: We want to get this right, which is why it is important that ministers take all members of Parliament with them on this journey. The SQA is transitioning to qualifications Scotland. I do not think that the member could stand up and tell me how many members will be on the board of that new body, because Parliament has not yet decided on that in the legislation. It should be Parliament and not the Government that decides how we progress the issue.”
“To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on the provision of Gaelic- medium education at primary level in the Glasgow Shettleston constituency. (S6O-04483)”
“For example, there is the recommendation for “explicit inclusion of Fair Trade in legislation” and to “Be more prescriptive and supportive for MSP action to implement the pledge.” The point is also made in the report that there should be better “ways of measuring what is being implemented in constituency and local level.” I am in broad agreement with the Labour amendment, especially the point about “establishing a standard definition and measurement framework for Fair Trade in public sector procurement”. I have no problem with supporting that. However, not surprisingly, I have some reservations about the angle of the Conservative amendment, despite it being lodged by the relatively pleasant Conservative member, Murdo Fraser. [Laughter.] Free trade and fair trade are not the same thing, as Patrick Harvie pointed out earlier.”
“The principle of “No Child Labour, No Forced Labour” is pretty clear cut—that is good—and I accept that “Good Working Conditions” will inevitably vary from country to country, taking into account the local norms and cultures. However, other principles such as “Promote Fair Trade” and “Capacity Building” leave a lot to the imagination and a fair bit of wriggle room. I note the recommendations in the report, some of which are for us as MSPs to take on board.”
“My understanding is that the procurement rules and regulations for public bodies such as councils do not always sit well with a desire to expand fair trade. Thirdly, the fair trade system needs to be tightened up. It is definitely worth while at the moment but some questions were raised as my staff were doing research for my speech. Some figures look good on the surface, such as “88% of local authorities have schools involved in significant Fair Trade activity.” However, we are then told that only 6.5 per cent of Scottish schools are part of the Fairtrade schools scheme. That does not sound quite so good. There are the 10 principles of fair trade from the World Fair Trade Organization and, although they are all good principles, some of them seem to be a bit too woolly.”
“It still seems to be a narrow range of products that have fair trade varieties available. According to The Grocer, there are almost 5,000 fair trade products for sale in the UK. However, I still feel that that is a restricted list. Specifically, we have not made as much progress with clothing as we might have done. There is praise in the report for the University of St Andrews shop, which supplies fair trade sweatshirts and hoodies to students, but that is clearly less common in high street fashion retailers. In a meeting of the CPG, pupils from Corpus Christi primary school in Glasgow told us that they had worked with Koolskools and had sourced and sold fair trade uniforms, so we know that it can be done. However, from my memory of that meeting, they said that they had to go through a number of hoops to be allowed to do that.”
“We, in the richer west, should not maintain our affluent lifestyles at the expense of workers who suffer miserable conditions and who are paid minimal wages in the developing world or the global south. Many of us can easily afford to pay a little bit extra for coffee or wine, with the assurance that the farmers who grow the produce are getting a good deal so that they can work reasonable hours, live in decent housing and afford to send their children to school. It is encouraging that fair trade products have improved over the years. For example, we get good-quality coffee in the Parliament—I remember the days when fair trade coffee was of pretty poor quality. Therefore, I congratulate those who were involved in once again achieving fair trade nation status for Scotland. Secondly, we need to go further.”
“I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in the debate. I also thank Colin Smyth, who leads the cross-party group on fair trade, which I seek to attend as often as I can. The focus of the debate is on fair trade around the world, especially where the richer west buys goods and services from poorer developing countries. However, as other members have mentioned, such principles should apply across the board. Fair trade should include farmers in Scotland being paid a reasonable price for the milk that they produce and our workers being paid properly for the jobs that they do. The concept of fair trade is absolutely excellent, and we should surely all support it.”
“Edinburgh, where my Edinburgh Central constituency is located, obtained Fairtrade status in 2004. I commend the work of the Edinburgh Fairtrade city steering group for its work to support and promote fair trade across the city. I particularly congratulate the steering group and Scottish Fair Trade for their successful bid to host the international Fair Trade Towns conference in Edinburgh later this year, which will be the first time that the prestigious event has been held in Scotland. Today’s global challenges—climate change, pandemics, conflict, poverty and inequality—can be addressed only if the global south and the global north work together.”
“I agree with a lot of what the cabinet secretary has said. He mentioned that there is activity in many local authorities. However, does he accept that that is quite a low bar? It does not need to be a lot of activity. Angus Robertson: I agree with John Mason that the level of support will vary from one part of the country to another. I will use his intervention as a springboard to encourage the local authority areas that are not yet playing a part to begin to do so. I hope that, through encouragement and with the support of campaigners, we can broaden, widen and enhance the fair trade movement’s impact across Scotland. He is right to wish that the level of support be increased, and I would welcome the minority of local government areas in Scotland that are not yet part of the process being part of it in the future.”
“I understand that, at the moment, it is also possible to get Spice Girls stamps and AC/DC stamps. Scottish Parliamentary Pension Scheme 4.”
“John Mason: I accept the point that the situation is the same in post offices outside the Parliament, but the Royal Mail has gone to considerable effort, under pressure, to produce what I think are excellent first and second-class stamps for Scotland. This is Scotland’s national Parliament and we are selling rest-of-the-UK stamps. Does the member not agree that that is bizarre? Claire Baker: As I said, the Parliament’s post office makes its own commercial decisions, and a range of stamps—including Scotland-specific stamps—are available on request. The post office currently has Scotland-specific first-class stamps in stock, and it would be happy, if requested to do so by a member, to order a fuller range of stamps, including country-definitive stamps.”
“To ask the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body what information it has on for what reason stamps that are issued in the Parliament’s post office are not Scotland country-definitive stamps by default. (S6O-04474) Claire Baker (Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body): The corporate body is not responsible for the commercial decisions of the on-site post office. My understanding is that it stocks the standard range of postage stamps that would be available in all high street post offices to cater for customers’ everyday mailing needs. It has confirmed to us that country-definitive postage stamps are available for purchase. On checking at the post office this morning, I found out that it has 300 first-class Scottish stamps and that more can be ordered on request, which would take one to two days.”
“Amendment agreed to. The Presiding Officer: The next question is, that amendment S6M-16845.1, in the name of Sue Webber, which seeks to amend motion S6M- 16845, in the name of Claire Baker, on reforming Scotland’s west coast ferries, be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Presiding Officer: There will be a division. Members should cast their votes now. The vote is closed.”
“On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I tried to connect but could not. I would have voted yes. The Presiding Officer: Thank you, Mr Mason. We will ensure that that is recorded. For Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Rona Mackay] Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Jamie Hepburn] McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Jamie Hepburn] McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Alba) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) Against Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con) Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Abstentions Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) The Presiding Officer: The result of the division on amendment S6M-16845.2, in the name of Fiona Hyslop is: For 57, Against 52, Abstentions 7.”