Fulton MacGregor
Scottish National Party · Scotland
“Deputy Presiding Officer, you will know that I am interested in that, as you are. We were both members of the Criminal Justice Committee in the previous session of Parliament. Evidence shows that community-based sentences are effective in reducing reoffending.”
“Scotland’s prison population continues to rise despite our having the lowest number of recorded crimes, and the average custodial sentence length increased by 37 per cent between 2014-15 and 2023-24. That is all having an impact on capacity in our prisons.”
“Scotland’s prison population is at a critical point. As the motion demonstrates, the Scottish Government recognises the importance of the issue and is taking action through sustained investment, careful planning and a clear focus on public safety. The 2026-27 budget includes investment of £1 billion in Scotland’s prisons.”
“It builds on the investment of £25 million over the previous two years. I also welcome the cabinet secretary’s remarks on reviewing community justice. However, the evidence is already clear. Statistics show that people who are released from custody experience higher rates of reconviction than those who receive non-custodial sentences.”
“Given that it is unaffordable, there would be an almighty battle to deliver it, if that could happen at all. The issue is about having a credible plan, with the timescales that we have to date, to deliver for the benefit of the people of Lanarkshire and people elsewhere in Scotland, with that shift in the balance of care.”
“At what point did the Scottish Government deem that the cost outlined in the business case was too high? What discussions did it have with NHS Lanarkshire to try to resolve issues earlier?”
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“Again, I thank Bob Doris for bringing this debate to the chamber and I welcome the policy that the Scottish Government has brought forward. It will have a real impact on my constituents, and we are all here to make sure that that happens. 12:59”
“Because today’s debate is a members’ business debate, it is maybe not the right time to go into too much detail on that issue, but, given the correspondence that I have had on it, I am keen to write to the minister on the matter. Could he look at that today and perhaps go back to ScotRail to look at where the concession fares are? I do not think that anybody—whether from a Government or an Opposition point of view—would want such a fabulous and great policy to be undermined because vulnerable groups feel that they are almost paying the cost of funding it. I am sure that that is not the intention of either the Government or ScotRail; I simply ask the minister, when he is summing up, to have a wee look at that. I can see that I have already used most of my four minutes, Presiding Officer, so I will bring my remarks to a close.”
“A return from Coatbridge to Glasgow Queen Street was £8.20 and is now £5.30; a return from Coatbridge to Edinburgh was £27.80, which was really high, and is now £16.40; a return from Kirkwood in Coatbridge to Glasgow Central was £8.70 and is now £5.40; a return from Gartcosh to Queen Street was £7.80 and is now £5.00; and a return from Whifflet to Motherwell was £5.90 and is now £3.30. Those are significant savings for people. As a result of the comms that I have put out on the issue, a lot of people have got back in touch with me, because they are concerned about the fact that concession fares went up prior to the announcement. In particular, older constituents have got in touch to say that, although it is great that peak fares have been scrapped, concession fares have gone up quite significantly.”
“Those stations are used regularly by my constituents, and, as members can imagine, the issue of rail fare costs has come up regularly. Over the years, a lot of people have said that the cost of the trains puts them off using them, so they stick with taking the car, which is something that we all want to move away from. Therefore, this policy is a very welcome step, and my communications on it in various channels over the past couple of days have been very well received and have led to an influx of emails to my office. I will give an example of some of the local routes that people take regularly for work and leisure and the difference in price because of the change in policy.”
“Presiding Officer, I apologise to you and to Bob Doris, because I will not be able to stay for the whole debate. You should have received an email about that, Presiding Officer. With the Deputy First Minister, I have a prior engagement with my cross-party group. I thank Bob Doris for bringing this important debate to the chamber. One of the reasons that I was keen to speak in the debate, despite the fact that I have a prior appointment, is that it is a policy that impacts greatly on my constituency, which has no fewer than nine very active train stations. That is probably one of the highest numbers in the central area of Scotland, and both of the main Glasgow to Edinburgh lines are included in that coverage.”
“There will be a brief pause before we move to the next item to allow speakers on the front benches to change over. Island Communities”
“It is vital to consider the numerous factors at play when implementing a flood protection scheme, not only for the local community’s well-being but for the environment, too. Can the cabinet secretary set out what assessment has been undertaken to ensure that the scheme does not have an adverse impact on the environment? Gillian Martin: There are many legislative protections in this situation. Under the Flood Risk Management (Scotland) Act 2009, local authorities are required to consider the environmental impact of flood protection schemes. Falkirk Council carried out an environmental impact assessment, which can be seen on the Grangemouth flood protection scheme website. A habitats regulation appraisal was also prepared by Falkirk Council. The Deputy Presiding Officer: That concludes this item of business.”
“If we are committed to such a positive change, in only five to 10 years’ time, debates such as this could be a thing of the past. 16:00”
“However, time is very tight in this debate, so I will end by urging the cabinet secretary to please explore the issue further, especially ahead of developing manifestos for 2026. A kindergarten phase will not solve all the issues in our education system overnight, and work must be done to help children who are struggling right now. However, the introduction of a well-designed kindergarten phase to at least the age of six, and possibly to the age of seven, will reap huge benefits in five to 10 years’ time. It could be truly game changing. It is time for the Government and the Parliament to be bold and to come together and deliver the system that lets children be children, continues to support parents and carers and finally puts an end to the current Victorian-based model of children starting formal school at the age of four or five.”
“I understand that the introduction of a kindergarten stage will not necessarily solve all the factors behind pupils’ requirements for additional support needs. However, I firmly believe that taking that step will benefit pupils immensely and might address some developmental issues that can occur with our children. We currently have a system whereby children are expected to make a jarring transition from a nursery environment to a school environment while they are still between critical developmental milestones. I could say so much more on the issue and talk about how the evidence points to a kindergarten stage reducing the attainment gap and behavioural difficulties.”
“The cabinet secretary will know what I am going to say—it will be of no surprise to her. I believe that the introduction of a play-based kindergarten stage could be that very solution. For several years, I have advocated the introduction of a kindergarten stage for Scotland. Almost a year ago, I brought a members’ business debate to the chamber on fostering a discussion on a kindergarten stage. The debate was engaging, with positive feedback on the idea from members across the parties. As I said in that debate, the UK is a complete outlier when we look at when our children start school, with our primary pupils starting between two and three years earlier than many of their European counterparts. Kindergarten would give us the opportunity to allow children to flourish physically, mentally and socially.”
“For example, on Monday, I visited Shawhead primary school in Coatbridge, where I was informed that, from next term, the school would be used as a new enhanced mainstream provision with capacity for 10 children who have been denied ASN placements. That will involve additional staff and resources at the school. I very much welcome that step, and I am keen to find out how that exciting policy develops. There is no doubt that the Scottish Government has supported local authorities to deliver in this area, with more than £1 billion spent on additional support for learning in 2023-24. However, we need to think more radically. We have a solution right in front of us that can help to tackle the rising incidence of additional needs, as well as behavioural difficulties, and to close the attainment gap.”
“I visit schools in my constituency every Monday, and I can testify to the fantastic work that our dedicated teaching staff and talented pupils are involved in. However, in almost all schools, I hear that the number of young people who need additional support is rising, and that is putting extra pressure on the schools. There is no doubt that local authorities—it is North Lanarkshire Council in this instance—are under pressure in that regard. Of course, it does not help that they have often taken decisions to cut key resources, such as classroom assistants, as has been done in my local authority area. However, I know that the council is also trying to find other solutions.”
“I welcome this debate on a very important issue for my constituents and for people across the country. There is no doubt that the number of ASN cases is rising, and that is very much reflected in my own case load. People are coming to my surgeries regularly now to seek advice and assistance, particularly when placing requests for specialist provision are being denied. There has been a rapid increase in the number of such cases that my office and I have been dealing with this year, which far exceeds that of the years before the pandemic. Parents and children are being left frustrated and worried, and many are turning to the First-tier Tribunal once all avenues with the council have been explored.”
“There is also an acknowledgement among them that a career in construction is a good one. There will be challenges in the sector, especially concerning recruitment, but, from what I have seen, the interest among our young people is definitely there. We must try to harness that interest so that we can make it work for Scotland in the years to come. 19:28”
“I am sure that some of my colleagues in the chamber, including those in other parties, will have had similar experiences across their constituencies and regions. I thank Gordon MacDonald again for bringing the issue to the chamber and for giving me an opportunity to talk about all the great work that I have seen from the students at two schools in my constituency, St Ambrose high school and Coatbridge high. I should point out that those are two of the schools that will be attending Gordon MacDonald’s event on Thursday. Although I will not be there in person, I have met a lot of the students who are going to be involved, and I wish them well at that event. The motion specifically cited the fact that there is interest among Scotland’s young people in the construction sector.”
“As we know, programmes such as the ones that I have highlighted boost skills, knowledge, connections and confidence for those who might be considering a career in construction. For the first time in the history of the constructing futures programme, the students who joined the programme were not exclusively male, which backs up my previous point and once again shows that there may be a shift happening in that respect in the industry and in society more generally. Although I accept the concerns—which we have heard about tonight—from bodies such as the Construction Industry Training Board, and we need to do more, what I have been seeing in my constituency of Coatbridge and Chryston has been encouraging.”
“One of the most encouraging aspects of my visit to Coatbridge high was seeing that attitudes towards what might once have been thought of as a male-dominated industry have now changed significantly, with plenty of boys and girls registering their interest in getting involved. I was really struck by the fact that so many girls wanted to be involved. In addition, earlier this year, in March, pupils from both St Ambrose high school and Coatbridge high were introduced to the constructing futures programme. The programme gave them an opportunity to experience a working construction site for 10 weeks, giving them practical experience and industry-recognised qualifications.”
“I will talk briefly about a couple of experiences in my constituency that have shown me the great potential that there is in Scotland for young people of all backgrounds to get into the sector. Just a couple of weeks ago, I visited Coatbridge high school to view and take part in the build your future event, which sought to highlight the diversity of roles in the construction industry. Students could learn about and engage with roles in areas such as roofing, electronics, digital mapping and drones. The rise of technology in recent decades has greatly expanded the potential for people with hugely varying interests to consider a future in construction. I spoke to students who were genuinely keen to see what the sector could offer them and their families.”
“Some of the factors that have contributed to the gap include an ageing workforce, a high-labour but low-productivity business model, and a history of boom and bust, with fluctuating workloads creating difficulty for planning over the long term. As well as those factors, recruitment drives must do more to make the sector more accessible for women, ethnic minorities and people with disabilities— cohorts of people who are all underrepresented in the construction industry, and whose absence is certainly being felt, given the projected labour shortages. Gordon MacDonald, who brought the debate to the chamber, has touched on those challenges, as has the other speaker so far—and the minister will, in closing the debate, no doubt underline what the Scottish Government can do to support the industry.”
“I place on record my thanks to my colleague, Gordon MacDonald, who has brought this important issue to the chamber. Given the debate that we have just had, I give him much credit for getting up and beginning this debate in the manner that he has. The motion that we are discussing raises serious concerns about the future of the construction sector in Scotland. The statistics that have been provided by the Construction Industry Training Board highlight an outflow of workers from the industry as a result of several factors, and the CITB has suggested that numbers will need to increase by more than 26,000 in the coming years if we are to close the skills gap in the sector.”
“To ask the Scottish Government what steps it is taking to reduce child poverty and ensure that targeted support reaches local families most in need in Coatbridge and Chryston and other deprived areas. (S6O-04633)”
“I want to say to the people involved in it that they should keep it up, and, like all the other speakers have done, I want to say to men—including Edward Mountain, Paul Sweeney and myself—that we should check ourselves regularly and not be too shy to go to the GP if we find something. The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call Jenni Minto to wind up the debate. 17:48”
“I know that representatives of Cahonas Scotland are in the public gallery, and I say to them that I wonder whether it is possible to either bring the campaign back or, if it was brought back last Christmas, to do a bit more to make it more noticeable next year. It is a very effective campaign, although I can see the arguments for why taking a year’s break or giving it a lower profile for a while is a good idea—we want the campaign to have an impact, rather than people feeling that they are just taking the same photo every 12 months. Overall, I do not want my words to be seen as a criticism. I pressed my button to speak today because I think that the work that Cahonas Scotland does is absolutely fantastic and I wanted to add my voice to that.”
“However, as a verified Trekkie— although I was more of a “Next Generation” fan—it was good to receive kudos the following day from colleagues who had seen that I had been retweeted by William Shatner. That demonstrates the people who were becoming involved in the campaign—I think that, after that, William Shatner went on to take his own photograph as part of the campaign. I have to say that, last Christmas, I did not take a photograph for the campaign. That is because I did a search using the hashtag and I did not get a lot of results. That is not to say that there definitely were not many photographs—the activity might have moved forum or whatever—but I did not really see a lot this year.”
“It is an effective campaign, with vast amounts of celebrity endorsements every year, and it became a common theme on Twitter— people might remember that, at one point, before the past couple of years, Twitter was good, and it was common to see celebrities popping up on our feeds to support the campaign. In the first year that I took part in the campaign—I think that it might have been the first year of the campaign—I was retweeted by none other than William Shatner himself. It is my claim to fame. He retweeted me to say, “This looks like a really good idea.” I think that he was giving me the credit for the idea, but he would quickly have learned that it was indeed the idea of Cahonas Scotland.”
“We are all used to interacting every year with the “Check yer bawballs” campaign, which has been extremely effective. One of the reasons that it has been so effective is that it has pushed the boundaries. I recall that the first time that I got involved in the campaign, I was getting my partner to take pictures of me by the Christmas tree. At one point, although she was not fully questioning what we were doing, she said, “Are you sure you’ll be all right to do this? You won’t get into any trouble?” I said that I would definitely be fine, because others had done it. However, the fact that she and others asked that question shows that the campaign was pushing the boundaries.”
“Initially, I had not intended to speak in the debate, Presiding Officer, so I thank you for allowing me to come in. I might not use up my whole time. Like others, I thank Marie McNair for bringing this important debate to the chamber. I thought that, as a man, I would rise to say that I agree with what has been said. Testicular cancer is not an issue that is often talked about. When men are socialising with other male friends, it is probably not a health area that we would particularly mention. That is why it is important that campaigns such as the one that we have heard about today continue to go ahead across the world. I chose to speak because I want to pay tribute to the Cahonas Scotland campaign that is mentioned in the motion and has been highlighted by everyone who has spoken today.”
“To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on plans to increase funding for local museums and heritage centres, including the Summerlee museum of Scottish industrial life in Coatbridge. (S6O-04545)”
“We have to remember that it has had a real impact on people across our communities and in our workplaces, and many have found that distressing. However, as we move forward with the implementation of the Supreme Court judgment, we always have to ensure that we proceed on the basis of the rule of law, equality and inclusion, and respect for human rights for everyone. I reassure Fulton MacGregor that the Government will be holding to those principles: the rule of law, the work and the judgment of the Supreme Court, equality and inclusion, and human rights for all.”
“I, too, accept and respect the court ruling. As the cabinet secretary has said, Lord Hodge stated that the ruling should not be viewed “as a triumph of one or more groups ... at the expense of another”, and he stressed the legal protections currently afforded to trans people. Does the cabinet secretary agree that any implications of the ruling, which forms part of a complex area of law, must be discussed sensitively and carefully, with the right advice in respect to all groups affected? Shirley-Anne Somerville: Fulton MacGregor is quite right to use the words “sensitively and carefully” and “with the right advice”. That is why, in my answer to Jackie Baillie, I mentioned the meeting that I will be having with the EHRC. I say once again that we accept the judgment of the Supreme Court.”
“To ask the Scottish Government what support is in place for people with the condition, Turnpenny-Fry syndrome. (S6O-04525)”
“The provisions that have been outlined will help to deliver effective and sustainable public services in Scotland by modernising our existing systems and creating a review process that will help us to learn from and improve current procedures. I therefore urge all members to support the general principles of the bill at decision time this evening. 15:49”
“The bill allows the Scottish Government to direct a review to be held even if the committee decides not to, as it is important for families to be able to escalate a case if they consider that a review should be undertaken. The committee noted that creating a committee with a panel of members from diverse bodies and backgrounds might result in committee members having differing levels of training and competency, which is why I was reassured by the letter from the cabinet secretary last week that confirmed that a robust and comprehensive training programme will be completed by those who participate in reviews. In summing up, the bill has been shaped through extensive engagement with key justice partners and third sector groups, whose views have been invaluable in forming the policy positions in the bill.”
“Reviews could be carried out not only when there was or appeared to have been abusive behaviour in a relationship, but when abusive behaviour has or might have resulted in the death by suicide of an abused person. Reviews would be carried out by a review oversight committee at its discretion. That committee would decide when to review a death based on the likelihood of identifying lessons and whether public authorities or voluntary organisations were or could have become involved in circumstances leading up to the death. I understand that the fact that the committee has discretion over which deaths to review might cause unease, certainly in circumstances as emotive as losing a loved one.”
“That responsibility is on all men, including all men who are in the chamber today. Speaking about the bill also gives me the opportunity to highlight the short film, “Bruised”, which was directed by my constituent Carla Basu and won a Royal Television Society Scotland student award. The film was recently shown here in the Parliament, and the minister was in attendance. It is a very powerful documentary, and I encourage all members who have not already seen it to view it. Coming back to the bill, it allows for reviews to identify what lessons can be learned and applied following a death when abuse is known or suspected, in order to prevent future abuse and deaths. Those reviews would not be conducted to attribute liability, but to work with relevant agencies to learn any wider systemic lessons.”
“I welcome the fact that, in the same letter, the Government has also committed to exploring further safeguards and clarity around how those provisions might operate in practice. The second part of the bill lays out the statutory framework to create Scotland’s first national multi- agency domestic homicide and suicide review model. Before I go into detail about that part of the bill, I reiterate that one death involving domestic abuse is one too many. Sadly, a significant number of victims are killed by a partner or ex- partner every year, with the vast majority of victims being women. Although we are now legislating with the intention of preventing deaths, the change that we all want to see will happen only when those who perpetrate domestic abuse, the majority of whom are men, change their actions and behaviour.”
“I therefore believe that now is the proper time to make them permanent, before they are due to expire, in November. Two new provisions in the bill focus on digital innovation: any use of digital productions instead of physical evidence, and allowing digital copies to be treated as equivalent to items that have been copied without the need for additional authentication. There are some obvious concerns about those new provisions. The committee agreed that there will always be occasions when it is necessary for a physical object to be produced in court. Therefore, the cabinet secretary’s response to our stage 1 report was reassuring, as she highlighted that a safeguard was built into the bill whereby a court would have the power to direct that an image of physical evidence may not be used in place of the physical evidence.”
“Those provisions include providing for the electronic signing and sending of documents in criminal cases; allowing virtual attendance at a criminal court; removing geographical limitations that courts have to deal with in the initial stages of a case; and introducing higher fiscal fines. I reiterate that those measures have been in place since 2020—as Maggie Chapman said, they should possibly have been in place for longer—but the bill will move them from being temporary reactive measures during Covid to procedures that will be underpinned in our legal system. The measures have already delivered better outcomes and experiences for those who engage with our justice service in Scotland, and they had general support among stakeholders during stage 1.”
“As we have heard, the bill is divided into two parts. The first part includes the modernisation aspects of the bill, and the second part focuses on a new review process, which the committee believes will ensure that improvements will be delivered, thereby preventing deaths in the future. All of us know that legislative processes are often slower than digital advances. Although that might be frustrating to some, it is important that, in the democratic system in which we live, the development and the scrutiny of legislation take place at the proper pace. The bill will allow the criminal justice system to utilise digital technology to a greater degree. Many of the measures were introduced through necessity during the pandemic, but it is now time for us to legislate to make some of them permanent features of our justice system.”
“Speaking as a member of the Criminal Justice Committee, I put on the record my thanks to all those who gave evidence at stage 1 and, of course, to our excellent clerking team. Liam Kerr mentioned the issue of timing with the various bills that we are considering, and it is important that we remember the clerks in that regard, because the Criminal Justice Committee is an extremely busy committee. As the cabinet secretary acknowledged in opening the debate, the committee agrees with the general principles of the bill. The bill will support the Scottish Government’s ambition to deliver effective and sustainable public services by ensuring that our justice system keeps up to date with technological advances and by creating a robust review system that will identify areas in which improvements are needed with regard to homicides and suicides.”
“The Deputy Presiding Officer: I recognise the extreme sensitivity of the issue that we are debating, but if I am to get in every member who wants to ask a question, the questions will have to be briefer, as will the responses.”
“What I can speak to is the action that was set out in our response to Sheriff Collins’s fatal accident inquiry, which I hope shows a commitment by the SPS and the Scottish Government to learn lessons and make improvements, and to do so at pace. I point to the fact that the talk to me strategy is being overhauled, and that suicide prevention technology is being developed. That work is being accelerated, and all national health service boards have given assurances that prison referrals to the mental health team are immediately reviewed and acted on without delay. Of course, we all want to scrutinise those actions to ensure that they are implemented.”
“With a case such as that, what steps is the Scottish Government taking to ensure that there is confidence that adequate systems are in place to protect prisoners in such circumstances and reduce the likelihood of similar instances occurring in the future? Angela Constance: I acknowledge the correspondence that I have received from Mr MacGregor on behalf of his constituent. My thoughts continue to be with the family of Jordan. Every death, whether in custody or in our communities, is a tragedy for all those who know that person. Mr MacGregor might wish to raise the issue of the timing of the FAI with the Lord Advocate directly.”
“I wrote to the cabinet secretary earlier this month and last year about Jordan Burns, so I know that she will be aware of the case of that 22-year-old who had a history of significant self-harming during his 10 months as a remand prisoner at HMP Addiewell. Sadly, on 23 November last year, Jordan was found dead in his cell, having suffered an overdose. Jordan’s mum, who has experienced unimaginable grief, is a constituent of mine, and my office and I have had on-going contact with her. Does the cabinet secretary agree that the fatal accident inquiry should be expedited so that the family can be given the answers that they need?”
“We are deep into a period of engagement with stakeholders to explore their views on the reimagined vision and options. To date, that engagement has included care and justice partners such as secure providers, COSLA, Social Work Scotland and the”
“The steps that the Scottish Government is taking to develop a more responsive system of secure care provision are welcome. Can the minister provide an update on the stakeholder engagement that the Scottish Government has undertaken ahead of responding to the Children and Young People’s Centre for Justice’s “Reimagining Secure Care” report? Natalie Don-Innes: As I noted in my statement, although the immediate focus is on stabilisation, our efforts must also look forward. In the medium and long term, we are committed to developing a much more resilient and sustainable system of secure care accommodation, in relation to commissioning, resourcing and placing management. The secure care contingency plan is the first step in a broader and more ambitious vision for the future of secure care in Scotland.”
“We intend to roll out more hands-on learning in the future to respond to demand, and the commitment plan has been designed to ensure that we work to address the different and emerging skills needs of all planners. It is great to see so many young planners coming forward, who can look forward to a very fulfilling career in the profession.”
“Can the minister outline how the recently launched national planning skills commitment plan, which he referred to, is set to support our next generation of spatial planners and equip them with the skills that they will need to make efficient planning decisions and overcome many of the challenges that Scotland’s communities face? Ivan McKee: Our national planning skills commitment plan, which I was delighted to launch in Govan in the past two weeks, is intended for people of all age groups and career stages. Immediately post launch, in recognition of the clear need for efficient planning decisions, we made it a priority of the first workshop to focus on the art of processing planning applications for our next generation of young planners.”
“To ask the Scottish Government what support there is for the parents or guardians of children and young people with additional support needs who require a specific school placement. (S6O-04471)”