Rona Mackay
Scottish National Party · Scotland
“Màiri McAllan: I express the Government’s sympathy with those who are wrestling with dramatically increased oil prices, which will have come as a very unwelcome shock to households.”
“Our islands cost crisis emergency fund will continue into the 2026-27 financial year, with an additional £1 million allocation. This year, we have also invested a further £5.5 million in the Scottish welfare fund, which provides vital support in difficult times. Rona Mackay: I thank the cabinet secretary for that welcome response.”
“To ask the Scottish Government what action it is taking through its fuel poverty programmes to support low-income rural and off- grid households that are unable to heat their homes due to the recent increase in heating oil prices.”
“I was pleased to see that the Scottish Prison Service has piloted non-pain-inducing control and restraint techniques that reduce the risk of injury to staff and prisoners. Can the First Minister assure me that the pilot approach will be rolled out across the prison estate, with staff being given the appropriate training?”
“The other two that I want to mention are the much-missed Christina McKelvie and Jeane Freeman. What a privilege to have known and worked with those freedom fighters. They fought for equality, fairness and, of course, independence. What a legacy they leave. I know that they will always be in our hearts.”
“I am pleased to speak in today’s important debate for many reasons. First, I want to acknowledge the legendary Christine Grahame and her passionate dedication to the cause of animal welfare. There are not many people we can call a legend, but I think that Christine qualifies.”
The complete record
Every one of 390 lines we hold for Rona Mackay, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 7 of 8.
“Do you think that it is appropriate that the body that is going to scrutinise something should take part in the consultation on creating it? The Deputy Presiding Officer: Always speak through the chair. Martin Whitfield: My apologies. Rona Mackay: I do not see any real problem with that. The subject matter should be considered by everybody who is involved in it. There is a delegated powers memorandum that must explain the nature of each and every power in a bill, and it must include the reason for taking the power and the choice of scrutiny procedure for that power. As we know, at stage 1, a bill is subjected to careful scrutiny from stakeholders and civic society. It then passes through stages 2 and 3, with the Parliament holding it to account at each stage.”
“The Scottish Government does not routinely set out to introduce framework bills. Bills are always considered on a case-by-case basis, and that is a sensible way to legislate. To be honest, as a small Parliament whose powers are, thankfully, increasing, I think that we do pretty well. It is also important not to lose sight of the mechanisms and processes that are already in place in Parliament to scrutinise proposed powers in bills and how they are used. Martin Whitfield: I am grateful to Rona Mackay for being generous with her time. My intervention is about the monitoring of secondary legislation, which was mentioned in the previous contribution. The Scottish Government’s response is that perhaps committees should take part in the consultation on the development of secondary legislation.”
“However, some people consider the use of such powers to be too wide, so the DPLR Committee inquiry was keen to explore any safeguards that can be put in place to address those concerns. The Scottish Government is happy to recommit itself to ensuring that the Scottish Parliament is provided with sufficient information to understand why a proposed delegated power is considered to be appropriate and proportionate and how that power is expected to be used. What is more, the committee saw no evidence to suggest that framework legislation is being used more frequently, as the minister articulated earlier. The evidence that Andrew Tickell gave to the committee talked about pejorative language in the context of framework or skeleton bills. In reality, we should remind ourselves that the process is used for fairly straightforward matters.”
“Henry VIII powers—the term is unfortunate, in my opinion—allow ministers to amend acts of Parliament by secondary legislation, which may concern minor matters but be very necessary. Delegated powers are an essential part of the legislative toolkit. The Scottish Government and the Parliament would not be able to function if we relied solely on primary legislation. That is the reality. During my nine years in the Scottish Parliament, and as a member of the Criminal Justice Committee and, previously, the Justice Committee for all that time, powers in delegated legislation have been used to good effect to update and amend legislation to address changing circumstances—and always, in my opinion, to strengthen it.”
“As a substitute member of the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee, I am pleased to speak in today’s important debate. On the face of it, it seems like a dry, somewhat technical subject, but it is hugely important to the integrity of Scotland’s democracy and the efficiency of the Parliament. The DPLR Committee’s recent inquiry into framework legislation and Henry VIII powers was an important and necessary piece of work relating to devolved powers and drafting legislation. As we have heard, framework or skeleton legislation sets out the principles for new law but without much detail as to how it will be given practical effect. Instead, broad powers to fill in the detail at a later point are given to ministers and, occasionally, to other bodies.”
“To ask the Scottish Government what eligibility criteria and implementation guidance it has issued to local authorities regarding the use of the care-experienced children and young people fund in education settings. (S6O-04574)”
“Other aspects of the Supreme Court judgment have perhaps had more public scrutiny and traction in the media, but it is important to draw the attention of the Parliament and wider society to what paragraph 100 says about the 2004 act, the continued relevance and importance of GRCs, and the provision of a legal recognition of the rights of transgender people. I hope that that gives some reassurance as we go into what is a difficult time for many members of the trans and non-binary community.”
“Many trans people in Scotland and across the UK will be confused and frightened by the Supreme Court judgment. Can the cabinet secretary clarify again how the rights of trans people, including those who already hold gender recognition certificates, can be protected and upheld? Shirley-Anne Somerville: Last Thursday, I met stakeholders representing the trans community and non-binary people. It is exceptionally important to recognise the real distress that people from those communities are reporting. In paragraph 100 of its judgment, the Supreme Court talked about the Gender Recognition Act 2004 and gender recognition certificates.”
“Now is the time to modernise the justice sector and make it fit for the future. I urge the Parliament to agree to the general principles of the bill. 15:59”
“We know that the impact of domestic abuse or the ‘ripple effect’, particularly where there is a death, is far reaching.” She continues: “We have committed to including other types of deaths within the model, including ‘so-called honour killings’ which are not captured under the 2018 Act”. One death involving domestic abuse is one too many, and we must capture its terrible, far- reaching effects. However, ultimately, as my colleague Fulton MacGregor said, the change that we need to see will happen only when those who perpetrate domestic abuse—the majority of whom are men—change their actions and behaviour, and there is a culture change in society. There is broad stakeholder support for the bill, and the Scottish Government has engaged extensively with key justice partners and third sector groups.”
“However, the committee heard the view that the definition of domestic abuse in the bill diluted its meaning according to the definition in the Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Act 2018. To that end, the committee sought assurances that the bill would not do that, because domestic abuse is clearly defined in the 2018 act. As the cabinet secretary articulates, the bill “focuses on learning from deaths where there has, or appears to have been, domestically abusive behaviour by person A ... towards person B”, and it “takes a broader position in relation to children to ensure that more deaths are covered by the review model.”
“It aims to create a process for reviewing deaths and suicides that relate to abusive behaviour in relationships. The committee heard moving and passionate evidence from Fiona Drouet, who was alluded to by our colleague Pam Gosal. Fiona is the mother of Emily Drouet, who tragically took her own life as a result of gender-based violence. Fiona’s tireless campaign has inspired the EmilyTest charity, and I applaud her determination to protect young women in the name of her beloved daughter. The reviews under part 2 would look at what lessons can be learned in relation to a death to try to prevent similar things from happening again. An independent oversight committee and case review panels would manage the reviews. The provision, which exists in England and Wales but not in Scotland at the moment, is absolutely crucial.”
“Virtual appearances would also free up professional witnesses, such as police officers, from having long waits to give evidence in person. A national jurisdiction for first callings from custody, allowing the initial stage of some criminal cases to be taken in any sheriff court in Scotland, is being proposed. The committee debated the pros and cons of introducing such a system. The cabinet secretary notes: “the national jurisdiction will never be able to be used for a trial: in a case where an individual pleads not guilty and the case goes to trial, it can apply only for initial appearances from custody and for subsequent procedural hearings.” Part 2 of the bill is incredibly important, and the provisions in it are long overdue.”
“It is important to remember that these provisions are separate from those that are already in place to support vulnerable witnesses, many of whom can give evidence remotely and have done so for some time through the legislative framework that provides for special measures. I am fully supportive of virtual courts for a variety of reasons, but mainly because they give victims and witnesses a choice in where they can give their best evidence without fear and intimidation. That is particularly important for victims of sexual and domestic abuse, because it can minimise stress and greatly reduce trauma. The committee has heard heartbreaking testimony from rape and sexual violence victims about the trauma of having to appear in the same room as the accused.”
“The cabinet secretary also states that each case will be considered on an individual basis, rather than there being “a prescribed list of suitable locations from which evidence may be given”, and that, “Importantly, parties have the opportunity to be heard and may raise objections to the location proposed.” Both the SCTS and the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service provide guidance to witnesses giving evidence remotely, which seeks to ensure that the rules of evidence are complied with and that, when a witness gives evidence remotely, they do so untainted by outside influence.”
“I am pleased that the cabinet secretary’s response to our stage 1 report makes it clear that the default position is for in-person attendance, mirroring the approach of the temporary measures, and that the bill “retains the Lord Justice General’s power to issue determinations to change the default mode of attendance to virtual attendance for certain types of hearings or in certain circumstances.” Further, she confirms that “the court must issue a direction which sets out how the person is to appear by electronic means before the court.” I expect that more detail on that will be forthcoming.”
“The Criminal Justice Modernisation and Abusive Domestic Behaviour Reviews (Scotland) Bill will be a huge step forward in bringing Scotland’s justice system up to date, which I believe is badly needed. As we have heard, part 1 of the bill makes changes in relation to criminal cases, mainly to internal processes, many of which were introduced during the Covid pandemic and are now felt to be beneficial enough to make permanent. Those include using electronic signatures for court documents, sending court documents electronically and attending criminal court hearings virtually. However, the committee heard concerns during evidence taking about the practicalities of virtual trials, such as location, solicitor-client engagement, technical reliability and resources.”
“Can the cabinet secretary advise what technology there is on signs of life that has already been considered and assessed by the Scottish Prison Service? Angela Constance: There is a short-life working group on the technology. The SPS is looking at the commercial companies that have undertaken some work on the new HMP Highland and HMP Glasgow projects. It has also engaged with Heriot-Watt University, which is actively exploring research opportunities in the area and seeking funding from research bodies to further develop its work. Given the unique challenges of the prison environment, there is not a single solution, but I make the point that we should grasp the opportunities that are available to us with new and emergent technologies. However, technology will never replace human-to-human contact.”
“For example, the whole family wellbeing fund has supported the highly regarded third sector organisation Includem to offer its ADAPT project services to local authorities across Scotland. Other examples of community support might include referral to the Government-funded interventions for vulnerable youth service, which is a national service that uses a multidisciplinary, tiered approach to provide risk assessment, formulation and management for young people aged 12 to 18 who present with complex needs.”
“It is right that Scotland is committed to a rights-based approach to youth justice that is focused on prevention and early intervention. With that in mind, what is the Government doing to invest in preventative approaches and alternatives to remand? Natalie Don-Innes: Wherever possible, children who are in conflict with the law should be supported via appropriate community-based support. In practice, those interventions are often provided via a partnership of statutory and voluntary sector services. That is reflected in our investment in services and initiatives that aim to address the underlying causes of offending and to support young people in the community through funding streams such as the cashback for communities programme or the whole family wellbeing fund.”
“On the member’s specific point, I note that developers agreeing and signing the legally binding developer remediation contract will be a positive step in ensuring the safety of home owners and residents in multi-residential properties with unsafe cladding. We have made significant progress on the key principles of the developer remediation contract negotiations, which are continuing in a good vein with developers. We continue to work constructively with developers that are taking steps to assess or remediate buildings of which they were the developer. That will include considering proposals for a responsible developers scheme.”
“The Scottish Government has taken a firm but fair approach to ensure that developers uphold their responsibilities in relation to cladding remediation. Will the minister outline how interventions such as the Scottish safer buildings accord and the upcoming responsible developers scheme ensure that developers are incentivised to work with, and not against, the Scottish Government in making our buildings safer? Paul McLennan: One of the key things all the way through this process has been the partnership approach that we have taken with developers, which we are committing to with local authorities and RSLs.”
“As Roz McCall has outlined, we need to be aware of sudden changes in children. I will not go through those changes, as Roz McCall has already articulated them. Let us all be aware of what is happening to a significant number of children in our country, let us prevent exploitation and let us protect our young people. It is our duty and responsibility to do so. 13:13”
“However, we must make no mistake: we must go after the exploiters to protect children. Any child is at risk of exploitation, regardless of age or background, and exploiters will look for vulnerabilities. Once bribed, a child’s loyalty will be tested, and they will, of course, be scared or reluctant to talk about their exploiters. Certain groups of children are inherently more vulnerable, whether they have additional support needs and disability, are growing up in poverty or are in the care system, and there is also overrepresentation of black and minority ethnic children. Serious organised crime can play a significant role in this insidious practice, with children groomed over time and threatened or targeted in a way that makes them feel that they cannot escape.”
“It believes that that obstructs co-ordinated, joined-up prevention work with children who are being groomed for that purpose. As we have heard, it also believes that the upcoming and very welcome Promise bill could be a parliamentary vehicle to drive through urgent changes to keep Scotland’s children safe. We must stop children from falling through the cracks and getting drawn into a world of darkness. It is the responsibility of us all to recognise the signs and care for those who are lost. However, we know that it can be challenging for agencies to detect and respond appropriately to the criminal exploitation of children, for a range of reasons. Indeed, the system currently struggles to balance the dual roles of exploited children as both victims and perpetrators.”
“I have to say that it is not an easy read; it highlights how criminal exploitation can include the retrieval of illicit drugs and money, the possession of weapons, the use of violence and firearms, the harbouring of offenders and the provision of false alibis for others. Cannabis growing, theft and burglary, and street crime such as begging and pickpocketing, are common, too. As a member of the children’s hearings system before being elected, I recall the case of a four-year-old boy who slept in the middle of a cannabis factory. It was just one of the many terrifying things that I heard at that time. What can we do to eradicate this? Action for Children is concerned that nowhere in the UK, including here in Scotland, do we have a legal definition of the criminal exploitation of children.”
“I have been a member of the Criminal Justice Committee since my election in 2016, and my overriding interest has been the welfare of children and young people. Despite that, I have to admit that the facts contained in the report shocked me. How can this be happening in our beautiful country? After all, this is the country that introduced the vision of the Promise to ensure that Scotland is the “best place in the world” for children and young people to grow up in and where they feel loved, safe, respected and able to realise their full potential. I thank Action for Children for its helpful briefing.”
“I am pleased to speak in this important debate, and I thank my colleague Michael Matheson for bringing it to the chamber. We all agree that only the lowest of the low exploit children, but, sadly, it is happening across Scotland, as the excellent but shocking report from Professor Alexis Jay and Action for Children reveals. Criminal exploitation of children is a complex, insidious form of child abuse that involves manipulation and coercion to make children participate in criminal activities and creates lifelong trauma for victims. As a result of its UK-wide polling last year, Action for Children has said that “over 130,000 parents say their child has experienced three or more signs of criminal exploitation in the last 12 months”. That could be the tip of the iceberg, given the lack of data.”
“To ask the Scottish Government what the estimated cost would be of permanently extending free rail travel to companions of blind persons national entitlement card holders, in light of the campaigning by Sight Scotland and Deafblind Scotland. (S6O-04459)”
“On my recent visit to HM Prison Low Moss, I was concerned to hear about the ever-increasing use of technology to smuggle drugs into prisons. What preventative work is being done by the Scottish Prison Service to ensure that prisoners do not take drugs in our prisons? Angela Constance: I have visited Low Moss prison and will do so again next week. During my visits to all our establishments, I have seen at first hand the strong and committed recovery agenda in our prisons. It is clear that on-going work with partners such as the Scottish Recovery Consortium and the Scottish Drugs Forum is having a positive and sincere effect on the individuals in custody who are on their own recovery journey.”
“While the Scottish Government considers the interim report, the work of the inquiry continues, so that patients, families and all those who have been affected will have the answers that they deserve. We need to respect that process. I am incredibly grateful to all the participants, for the work of Lord Brodie and the inquiry team and for the time, effort and energy that have gone into the inquiry from so many dedicated people. The findings in the interim report will contribute significantly to ensuring that lessons can be learned, so that we can take steps to implement the necessary improvements to maintain the highest standards of patient safety across the health service.”
“Page iv of the report clearly sets out that it is “an interim report” that does not represent the conclusion of the inquiry, the investigations of which into the Queen Elizabeth university hospital will continue. Does the cabinet secretary agree that the on-going work of the inquiry is of the utmost importance, so that families and patients can get the answers that they deserve? Neil Gray: Yes, I absolutely agree with Rona Mackay. Inquiries are set up by ministers to examine matters of public concern about a particular event or set of events. They operate independently of Scottish ministers, and they have a crucial role in scrutinising the past to inform lessons for the future.”
“Doctors are able to prescribe medication that can help to alleviate withdrawal symptoms. Figures show that if excessive alcohol consumption is stopped and vitamin B1 intake is increased, 25 per cent of people can make a full recovery and 50 per cent of people make a partial recovery; sadly, 25 per cent do not recover and have to be cared for long term. Recovery services are key and everyone should have access to specialist care. SHAAP advocates for the expansion of alcohol brief interventions and for continued support for the managed alcohol programmes pilot in Glasgow. In conclusion, I believe that it is time to rethink how we deal with the public health issue of addiction. We need to remove stigma and reframe recovery in a holistic and compassionate way. That is, I believe, the only way forward. 18:02”
“One symptom of ARBD is a lack of insight into the problems that it causes, so many patients do not recognise that there is anything wrong and do not seek medical help. There is also significant stigma surrounding the condition, which must be removed. Worryingly, there is also a lack of understanding among clinicians. The numerous forms and presentations of the condition mean that, in order to make a diagnosis, clinicians need to be aware of the variations of ARBD. It can be difficult to distinguish between the long-term effects of alcohol on the brain and the short-term effects of intoxication or withdrawal, so awareness of the differences is key. The good news among the gloom is that ARBD is not progressive, as dementia is. The brain can heal, people can recover and the damage can be reversed.”
“It is further estimated that 80 per cent of women in prison have brain damage due to head injuries that are caused by domestic violence, and a similar number of women suffer mental illness to some degree. The case for holistic prevention and recovery for all those who are affected by alcohol, and women in particular, could not be more stark. Symptoms of ARBD include difficulties in making decisions and assessing risk; difficulties with concentration and motivation; impulse and emotional control problems; and changes in personality. In effect, it damages the brain’s control centre, which makes even daily tasks difficult or impossible. Ironically, many people who are suffering from ARBD are not diagnosed.”
“Most people with ARBD are in their 50s and 60s, but—as we have heard—more and more people in their 30s and 40s are being seen with symptoms, and that is incredibly worrying. Typically, women develop ARBD at a younger age than men do, and women are more vulnerable than men to ARBD after drinking heavily for a shorter length of time. That fact surely must correlate with a higher incidence of fetal alcohol disease, which is entirely preventable by abstaining from alcohol while pregnant. As convener of the cross-party group on women, families and justice, I find the effect of alcohol on women really concerning. It is estimated that as many as 90 per cent of women in custody in Scotland have addiction problems, whether that involves alcohol or drugs.”
“I am pleased to speak in this important debate, and I thank Carol Mochan for bringing it to the chamber and for her informative speech. Scotland has had a difficult relationship with alcohol over the years. The majority of us, thankfully, can enjoy alcohol without it elevating into addiction. However, it is important for everyone to understand that alcohol-related brain damage occurs in around 35 per cent of those who succumb to the illness of addiction. It happens as a result of long-term heavy drinking and accounts for between 10 and 24 per cent of all cases of dementia. The Scottish Health Action on Alcohol Problems partnership has produced critical evidence of which we should all take heed.”
“Scotland will be absolutely true to maintaining that support and assistance to those individuals.”
“It has been an absolute privilege to welcome Ukrainian people to Scotland during this difficult time. However, in this time of increased uncertainty—particularly over the past few days— many will understandably be concerned about what the future holds for their home country. What is the First Minister’s message to Ukrainian people who are living in Scotland at this difficult time? The First Minister: Rona Mackay highlights the unease and anxiety that must be felt by Ukrainian citizens who are living in this country. Their lives have been turned upside down, and they are now living far from their home and from many of their loved ones. I understand the anxiety that will be felt. My message to those individuals living in our community is to express solidarity and to assure them of Scotland’s support and assistance.”
“To ask the Scottish Government what plans it has to expand dyslexia support in schools, to remove any barriers for children who need the right support to thrive. (S6O-04371)”
“In the meantime, Scottish Government and UK Government officials have met to discuss the issues raised in the letter. Football Matches (Pyrotechnics Use) 3.”
“What response has the minister had from the UK Government to the letter that was sent in January on improving online safety for children, including through legislation? Siobhian Brown: We have not yet received a response to our letter to the UK Government ministers. I hope that we will receive one soon and that we can meet to discuss the issues outlined in our letter. Keeping our children safe online is an issue that both Governments have concerns about. We want to work constructively with the UK Government to tackle this growing threat to our children’s wellbeing. One issue raised in our letter was the European Union’s Digital Services Act, which provides increased protection—more than is provided by the UK-wide Online Safety Act 2023.”
“From NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde’s response, I am satisfied that the appropriate review and assurance processes are in place and that improvements have been made since the events described. I will be carefully monitoring the outcome of the internal and external reviews that have been commissioned and, as the board would expect, I will hold it to account. On support, I would always encourage young people and their families to raise concerns with staff or via the advocacy services that are available in in-patient units, if they feel able to do so, so that any issues can be resolved as quickly as possible. Young patients and families can also contact the Mental Welfare Commission advice line.”
“It is crucial that we all remember that many young people are still under the care of Skye house. Can the minister expand on the assurances about the standards of care that are currently being provided at Skye house, and can she advise how the Scottish Government is supporting the young people who are currently using those services and their families? Maree Todd: Since I was made aware of the allegations in the programme, my officials have been in regular contact with NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde, asking a series of questions about how complaints and incidents during the period were handled, how Mental Welfare Commission recommendations were addressed and how staff were trained and supervised. There were also important questions about leadership and governance.”
“The new women’s custody units in Glasgow and Dundee are a huge step in the right direction. They are designed to help women to move slowly back into a normal routine. I am delighted that the Scottish Government is working with our justice partners to look at how we can offer alternatives to custody. We need to steer a better path and have confidence in alternative pathways. Prison should be the exception, not the rule. 16:01”
“It is estimated that as many as 90 per cent of women in custody in Scotland have addiction problems with alcohol or drugs. It is further estimated that 80 per cent of women in prison have brain damage due to head injuries caused by domestic violence, and that a similar number of women suffer mental illness to some degree. Prison is no place for women whose addiction and chaotic life experiences have led them down the wrong path. They need holistic help, because no one chooses that lifestyle. Scotland’s amazing third sector organisations do an incredible job of helping people in a holistic and trauma-informed way when they leave prison. For many people, particularly women, they are a lifeline and are essential to getting them back on track, but, sadly, the damage to families and children has often already been done.”
“As convener of the cross-party group on women, families and justice, I am aware of how damaging incarceration is to families and children, and it often does nothing to rehabilitate the offender. We know that short prison sentences are often not the best way to reduce reoffending. Community-based interventions are more effective in doing that and in assisting with rehabilitation. Ultimately, that leads to fewer victims and safer communities. There are far too many women in custody and on remand. In January this year, 330 women were incarcerated, and about 30 per cent of them were on remand. I agree with Jamie Greene’s and Pauline McNeill’s comments about remand, although I am not sure how it would be possible to have no one on remand. We have to tackle that issue.”
“Scotland is not alone in facing the challenge of prison overcrowding. The previous and current UK Governments have taken action to respond to the rising prison population in similar ways. Interestingly, the recently published Gauke review, which Liam McArthur mentioned and which was conducted by a former Tory minister, highlighted an increased prison population in England and Wales despite a reducing crime rate. Like Scotland, the UK has embarked on the early release of prisoners when it is safe and appropriate to do so to alleviate overcrowding. Protecting victims and the public from harm is the absolute priority. Prison will always be necessary; for some offenders, it is essential. However, I question whether prison is the best place for many who are sent there.”
“Per capita, Scotland has one of the highest prison populations in western Europe. We are simply locking up too many people, and that cannot continue. I welcome the Scottish Government’s action to establish a review of sentencing and penal policy to consider the most effective ways to address offending behaviour and lower the number of victims. I am extremely pleased that, as we have heard, it will be chaired by Martyn Evans, the former chair of the Scottish Police Authority, who will be supported by five expert commissioners. The panel will examine how imprisonment and community-based interventions are currently used in Scotland. It is clear that we need to look at alternatives to custody. The Scottish National Party Government’s commitment to strengthening community justice services by investing £159 million in 2025-26 reaffirms that.”
“I call Pauline McNeill to speak to and move amendment S6M-16532.2. 15:31”