Choo Wee Khiang
Singapore
“Sir, bearing in mind the problem we have with Malaysia pertaining to the CIQ matter, would the Minister envisage any problem with our negotiations with Malaysia and will the Minister tell us whether there is going to be a deadline in terms of finalising the negotiations?”
“Sir, in today's Straits Times, it is reported that, "Singapore should not decide unilaterally on the relocation of CIQ facilities from Tanjong Pagar to Woodlands." It was mentioned by UMNO Vice-President, Dato Sri Najib Tun Razak. I take it that Dato Sri Najib had said that we should not move to Woodlands.”
“That is most important and let us not take the emotional aspect of it in dealing with this particular Bill. Let us be really focused. Let us take into consideration the well-being of the great majority of Singaporeans and the progress and prosperity of Singapore into consideration.”
“I thank the Minister for his reply. If we recognise the importance of sports, I think he should consider re-naming his Ministry to "MCDS", Ministry of Community Development and Sports. Dr Vasoo: Sir, as usual, Members have stretched their viewpoints. The Minister has given very elaborate replies.”
“Sir, I will be equally brief. The Singapore Sports Council has done a very good job and it has been transformed. But I understand from many National Sports Associations that they are all running into financial difficulties. They have a lot of good and great plans, but they need funds.”
“If they are working in the city, and you want them to buy a flat in the suburban area, they will have to spend a lot of time travelling to-and-fro. It is too troublesome and inconvenient. I have also come across a case where a resident wanted to sell back the 3-room flat to HDB in order to buy a bigger flat.”
The complete record
Every one of 264 lines we hold for Choo Wee Khiang, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 3 of 6.
“Sir, last year, the general crime rate in Singapore continued to decline for the seventh consecutive year. Significant declines were noted in crimes such as robberies, snatch thefts and housebreaking. This is a remarkable achievement, considering that many countries are experiencing a general rise in crime rate. I commend the Ministry of Home Affairs and the Police for their good work in keeping our streets and neighbourhoods safe each year. However, bucking our declining crime trend is an increase in the number of juveniles arrested. Incidence of teenagers hanging out at night-spots and getting into fights are getting more prevalent. There are also reports and feedback regarding teen gangs in schools. This is a worrying trend. Although the issue of juvenile offenders and juvenile delinquents has been raised in previous years, I think it is important that we discuss this issue further as it involves our youths and has long term social implications. Youths are our future generation. If this trend is left unchecked, many of today's juvenile delinquents may become criminals or, at best, irresponsible citizens tomorrow. The question is: while we have a declining overall crime rate now, will the problem of juvenile offenders and delinquents raise the general crime trend in future, when the present generation of youths grow into adulthood? Is this a storm cloud looming behind the horizon? The Inter-Ministry Committee (IMC) on Dysfunctional Families, Juvenile Delinquency and Drug Abuse has completed its report. The IMC had made several recommendations to address the problem of juvenile delinquency. One of these is the setting up of a high-level work group to coordinate efforts to keep youths from crime and rehabilitate young offenders.”
“Sir, Singapore is making good progress in its efforts to become a regional commercial and business centre. This is a national endeavour and therefore everyone must play a part. In this regard, Sir, Government has taken the lead by cultivating good relations with countries far and near. The recent Asia-Europe Summit attests to this. Because of the good ties cultivated, our businessmen are held in high regard by their foreign counterparts. Sir, I wish to ask the Minister for Law how his Ministry is playing its part in making Singapore a regional commercial and business centre, in particular, does his Ministry monitor our laws and international developments constantly to ensure that we are up to date.”
“Since Prof. Woon asked about my private life, I think I ought to reply. As a result of my upbringing, I am properly clothed at all times. I do not know about the Member. Since I am properly clothed at all times, I am not giving any chance for the public to complain about me walking around in my house nude. So probably, the Member has a chance to explain to the House about himself? Amendment negatived. Clause 11 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Bill reported without amendment; read a Third time and passed.”
“At the end of the 20th century, we do not have this kind of Victorian aversion to flesh that existed when these sections were first drafted. So all I am saying is, let us have a little bit of reasonableness so that the person can say, "Look here, I really didn't realise that these doors were open, the windows were open, the curtains were open." It is a defence.”
“Walter Woon: May I ask Mr Choo whether he baths fully clothed? Or is there some occasion on which he disrobes completely? The problem is not just nudity. If you look at subsection (2) of section 27A, you will see that "for the purpose of this section, the reference to a person appearing nude includes a person who is clad in such a manner as to offend against public decency or order." Does Mr Choo keep himself fully clothed at all times? Is there not some time when he is partially disrobed at least? This is the problem that this kind of wide drafting gives us. You are in your bedroom. You do not realise that the blinds are partially open. You are in a state of partial disrobement. Somebody has peeped in. They call the police. They say, "That is an offence under section 27A, please nab the fellow." Police come and bang on your door and say, "I am sorry, you have committed an offence." The embarrassment is already there. It is not just the police that we are worried about. In fact, it is not the police I am worried about. I am not worried about the AG's Chambers. The people in AG's Chambers have got commonsense. I am worried about private prosecutions by people who want to use this kind of thing as a means to harass their neighbours. Have you not heard of vindictive neighbours who will try and get other people into trouble? You leave the door open for them literally in a case like this. All I am asking is that we have a simple section that says, "If you didn't realise that you are exposed to public view, you haven't committed an offence." What is so difficult about that? Or are we saying that merely exposing to public view is so heinous a crime that you must commit an offence? I do not think our society is that prudish.”
“Sir, I am quite amazed by what Prof. Woon is trying to propose because I think the amendment seeks to protect the public, and it appears to me that the Member is trying to protect the nudists. In our Asian society, how many of us have the habit, like what Mr Cheo said, of walking in our sleep without clothes on and, like what Prof. Woon said, accidentally walk around in private homes without any clothes on? How many of us do that? And I think if these people who appear nude and walk around in their own apartment and it is within sight, it will give rise to public embarrassment. If the public complains, the police will take the necessary action to investigate and find out more about it before the police and the AG's Chambers decide whether to prosecute them. I am sure the Senior Parliamentary Secretary can confirm it. So I do not think Prof. Woon should be too worried about adding the word "intentionally" and talking about nudity at home as an excuse. Is that what he is trying to say? I do not understand. Assoc. Prof. Ho Peng Kee: Sir, again, I think Prof. Woon is well meaning in his suggestion. Here, again, I hope that he would take a closer look at my speech where I put in context the reasons for the amendment. The police will not take a blunderbuss approach. Before the case goes to court, the AG's Chambers, which is the prosecutorial arm, in exercising its discretion, will look at all the circumstances of the case. Indeed, a person can be nude in his own home in many circumstances. It can be intentionally. It can be absent-mindedly. It can be unknowingly. But the point is that harm is done. If it is once-off or irregular, those factors would be taken into account by the police and the AG's Chambers in deciding whether or not to prosecute. Assoc. Prof.”
“I am saying that it should be a defence and you reasonably believe that you were not exposed to public view. For those people who are offended by the sight of nudity in their neighbours' houses, may I give a little simple piece of advice, "Stop looking into your neighbour's windows!" But for those people who are accidentally exposed, as it were, because they do not realise that people can see them, why should we make it an offence? Why should it be a police case? Police come banging on your door. The embarrassment of being seen is already enough without having a police officer knocking on your door, seeking entry as well to arrest you. I am merely asking that we should have a little bit of reasonableness here so that the person can show that he did reasonably believe he was not exposed to public view, he has not committed an offence.”
“Then why the resistance to making it plain in the law? Why leave it unsaid? This is the point. I think it is very unfortunate that we should have laws that are very wide, leave the definition to debates in the House, and when it goes to court, the court's hands are tied because the court does not have recourse to Parliamentary debates unless there is an ambiguity in the language. If the language is clear, the court must apply this. This is why I am saying that when we draft these laws, we have to be very, very careful about what we are doing. It is not just a philosophical point. It is also a practical point. We do not want to have a situation where people can be accused of breaking the law where there are no merits to the accusation because the law has been drafted widely and sloppily widely. Amendment negatived. Assoc. Prof. Walter Woon: Sir, I beg to move, (2) In page 8, at end, to add, "(5) It shall be a defence to a prosecution under this section that the accused reasonably believed that he was not exposed to public view.".". The last amendment that I have proposed is a defence to section 27A. Section 27A provides that if you are in a private place and you are nude and exposed to public view, you can be prosecuted for an offence. May I ask Members of the House again how many of them have sometimes appeared nude in their houses without thinking that anyone was watching? But somebody might be watching. We are talking about public housing here. You have situations where you could, not realising that your window blinds are not properly closed, not realising that your lights may be on, and therefore people can see into your house, appear nude. We are making it an offence for a person to be nude in a private place when exposed to public view.”
“Sir, the Senior Parliamentary Secretary has already assured the House that the police is not going to take that kind of approach. I do not go to beaches as often as the Member does. I do not know about bushes. I am sure along the East Coast Park, there must be a proper place for you to change. While you are changing clothes, something drops off and you appear nude, I am sure the AG's Chambers and the police will have the view that you are doing it unintentionally. Someone must prove beyond reasonable doubt that he appears nude unintentionally. So let us look at it from a wider scope, from a macro point of view. How many Singaporeans appear nude at home and walk or parade around, or they change in the bushes? How often and how many of them really intentionally appear nude in public places? We are not trying to catch the general public, ie, the law-abiding public in Singapore. Not at all. I think we are trying to catch the exceptional ones. And I do not think Prof. Woon should be so eager in wanting to add the word "intentionally". Mr Cheo Chai Chen (Nee Soon Central)( In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I support Prof. Woon's proposal to amend clause 27A by inserting the word "intentionally" because some people are in the habit of sleeping in the nude. If suddenly there is a fire, they would have to rush out naked as they would probably have no time to put on any clothing. Even if they are clothed, their clothing may have been burnt and they may end up being naked. Under the amended law, they could be prosecuted. Therefore, the word "intentionally" is important here. Assoc. Prof. Walter Woon: I take it from Mr Choo's speech that he does not think that people who accidentally appear nude should be prosecuted. Am I correct?”
“He is after all appearing nude in a public place. "Intentionally" is there to make it clear that only those who intend to appear nude are prosecuted, not those who through no fault of their own or through accident appear nude. This is the point. Does the Senior Parliamentary Secretary mean to say that if a person is nude in a public place, whether it is a fault or not, he is guilty of an offence and can be prosecuted? It is not the police that I am worried about. It is private prosecution by over-zealous members of the public, by people who are brilliant, by people who are prudish. This is the kind of thing that we worry about. "Intentionally" nude makes it quite clear that you have to have the intention. As far as proving intention is concerned, like I said, the Penal Code and the whole corpus of statutes are full of sections that require the proof of intention. If the public prosecutor can prove sufficient intention to convict people of murder, why can they not deal with the intention in something like this?”
“I think the Yishun case brings up very clearly that Police should not be made to stand helplessly by, not being able to do anything, especially where public morals and decency are involved. Given the fact that we live very closely to one another, and I am sure our children will live even more closely to one another, this provision is necessary. Quite apart from the conceptual point that Mr Choo raised, ie, whether a person can really be nude unintentionally, from a practical point of view, if we insert the word suggested by Prof. Woon, it will in fact give an outlet for a person who actually is an exhibitionist to say that, "Oh, I was absent-minded about it." or "I didn't know that I was nude." How do you prove that he intentionally took off his clothes unless you have a video camera, and that Prof. Woon would not want because he will say there is big brother overlooking him. He may think it is an overkill, but given my assurances in this House and given the practical need to ensure that the situation in Yishun does not repeat itself, I hope that this Bill, as it is, will be passed. Assoc. Prof. Walter Woon: Sir, if Mr Choo cannot imagine how people can be accidentally nude, I suggest that he is a man of very limited imagination. You go to a beach, you do not have proper changing facilities, you change behind the bush and, for some reason, your towel gets caught in a gust of wind, or pulled away accidentally. Is that intentionally nude? Assoc. Prof. Ho has been the Master of a Hall of Residence. No doubt, he has heard of student pranks where on somebody's birthday, they decide that he should appear in his birthday suit. They strip him. They take him to the end of the road. They dump him in the bushes. Is that intentionally nude? Is this what you mean to prosecute?”
“Sir, I find that the proposed amendment by Prof. Woon to add the word "intentionally" before the phrase "appears nude" quite problematic. First of all, Sir, I cannot understand how a person can unintentionally appear nude. Can a person take off his clothes when he has no intention to do so? Not unless this person is sleepwalking or is unconscious and being stripped off by someone. But, I think, Sir, this provision actually seeks to protect the public from the embarrassment and harm that can be caused, especially to children, by the sight of a naked human body parading around in his own apartment. The case cited by Prof. Ho, which was widely publicised, is indeed a very good point. When it comes down to protecting public morals and decency, especially those of our children's, I agree that we should take a strong stand. I am happy that Prof. Ho has assured the House that the Police will not take a blunderbuss approach. I think ample notice and warnings will be given to the so-called telephone subscribers and people who appear nude. I am sure sufficient notice and warnings will be given to them. Prof. Ho has actually assured the House. I do not think it is necessary for Prof. Woon to ask the House to consider adding the word "intentionally" just before the phrase "appears nude". Assoc. Prof. Ho Peng Kee: Sir, I would like to thank Mr Choo for his comments. He has mentioned the key point in my speech where I have mentioned that the Police will not take a blunderbuss approach. The intent behind this provision is to ensure that those who are exhibitionists, those who are regular, persistent or blatant, there will be in the law a tool by which Police can hit at them.”
“If you do not have the word "intentionally", you are going to have arguments in courts between lawyers as to whether or not this is strict liability or not strict liability. Remember that apart from prosecution which is brought by the Police and by the prosecutors, there are things called private prosecutions. Do we want to open the door to this kind of situation where some prudish prim busybodies have seen a nude body and are so revolted and try to bring a private prosecution because they cannot stand the sight of nudity? So to make things clear, I have proposed that we insert the word "intentionally" in the first line of section 27A. The person only commits an offence if he intentionally appears nude. That cuts out all the problems of those who accidentally appear nude or do not intend to expose themselves. The problem of proving intention is one that the courts are well capable of handling. The laws are full of sections that require intention and prosecutors have thus far no problem of proving intention even in serious crimes like murder. I do not think it is beyond the wits of our public prosecutors to prove intention in something like appearing nude.”
“As a citizen, I feel very uncomfortable with laws that wide. Because that means it is not the courts that decide any more, it is the Police that decide whether you are going to be prosecuted and convicted. As far as the point on abetment is concerned, may I correct, with respect, the Senior Parliamentary Secretary. You are guilty of abetment if you instigate or if you assist. "Knowingly permit" is not abetment. It was not when I last looked at it. I do not know whether that has been changed in the meantime. So, I would say, Mr Speaker, Sir, and I would say to Members of this House, that if we let this through, that is fine, if the Senior Parliamentary Secretary's assurance on warnings can be written in. Otherwise, we set a very unfortunate precedent where you got a law that is so wide that once an offence is committed, there is really no defence. If they choose to prosecute you for whatever reason, it is practically impossible to defend yourself unless you are paranoid and lock up your phone beforehand. Amendment negatived. Clause 8 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clauses 9 and 10 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 11 - Assoc. Prof. Walter Woon: Sir, I beg to move, (1) In page 7, line 32, after "who", to insert "intentionally". The first amendment that I am proposing to section 27A is self-explanatory. As it stands, section 27A merely says that "Any person who appears nude ... shall be guilty of an offence ...". If these were Victorian times, the mere appearance "nude" might revolt people's sensibilities. But we are 90 years removed from Queen Victoria, and the question of whether or not just the sight of a nude body is so disgusting that we have to criminalise it becomes an issue.”
“The penalty will be tougher, yes, but we will continue with the warnings. After two warnings are given, the due diligence part will be looked at from the viewpoint of what you have done or not done after the warnings have been given to you. And if despite the warnings, calls are still continued, then I think for the sake of all Singaporeans who are delayed in making emergency calls, these amendments are needed. The other point is that once we make nuisance calls an offence under the law, a parent or a subscriber who knowingly permits his phone to be used for such a call will be guilty of abetment. I am sure Prof. Woon agrees. Therefore, if we take his amendment, it adds no additional teeth to the law. It is a restatement of the current position but in a different way. Therefore, to arrest this trend, and to make sure the situation improves, I would urge him to re-think, and withdraw his amendment and for the House to agree that indeed the steps that are being suggested in the Bill are reasonable steps. Assoc. Prof. Walter Woon: With regard to Mr Choo's point, I think he has missed it entirely. It is not just children we are worried about. Anybody could go into your house and use your phone. It could be your maid. It could be your parents. It could be a lodger. It could be a house guest. Anybody. Are we going to turn ourselves into something that George Orwell did not envisage in 1984 - a nation of big brother overlooking the phone? This is the point. As a matter of drafting philosophy, what the Senior Parliamentary Secretary says here is fine, if only they would put it in the law. Why can they not put it in the law? Why must the law be drafted so wide that the offence is automatic and the Police have the discretion whether to prosecute or not.”
“Sir, I would like to add my view on this point. I do not understand why Prof. Woon mentioned about a driftnet. I am not a lawyer, but if you were to listen to the Senior Parliamentary Secretary's speech carefully, 78% of the calls are from children. And therefore it is important for us to make sure that the parents are responsible for it, and they take the necessary preventive measure. The Senior Parliamentary Secretary has already assured the House that ample notice will be given to the parents, in particular, who are the telephone subscribers. Therefore, I do not think that Prof. Woon should make use of the legal terminology "driftnet", as far as this particular amendment is concerned. I support and agree that this approach will ensure that responsible parents control their children so that they do not make crank calls or nuisance calls, thereby making the Police ineffective and unproductive. Assoc. Prof. Ho Peng Kee: Sir, I am sure Prof. Woon is well-meaning in his suggestion. But I think we should look at things in perspective. We have to make it such that the situation will improve. We have all these years been going on public education. However, the situation remains bad and it is untenable. The most practical way, therefore, is to put the burden on the person who has control of the instrument to take reasonable steps to ensure that the lines are not abused. I think a corollary would be the approach we took when we made contractors responsible for the security measures in their workplace, because they are the best people to take the necessary measures. Currently, in fact, Police does not take a blunderbuss approach. So it cannot be that when we enact a law like that, we are going to make it even tougher all-round.”
“Yes. I am not clear as to what Mr Ling is trying to say. Therefore, I am seeking clarification, Sir. We know that Mr Ling is the unofficial Leader of the Opposition. He is a well known leader. He is a well known lawyer. And he was writing a letter to a well known leader of the world, President Ramos. By not saying anything to uphold our judiciarl system, he is implying that there is something wrong with it. How can he come back to the House now and tell us that is not the case? He said, "Yes, it is bizarre." But it was not stated in the letter. How does he explain? How does he reconcile the two statements? The fact that President Ramos saw him and his delegation meant that he took him very seriously. So I think Mr Ling, being the unofficial Leader of the Opposition, should explain in the House how he reconciles the two statements? And if he thinks that there is nothing wrong with our judicial system, please re-issue a press statement.”
“Sir, can I air my views, please? Mr Speaker: Mr Choo, would you like to seek a clarification?”
“No. Mr Ling How Doong: The point here is the report by the pathologists. We know they are absolutely right. Why did we agree to refer it to a third party?”
“Let me finish. I think the grassroots organisations know exactly what is happening in the constituency. They have RC and CCC members, most of whom are local residents. They know exactly which spot to be improved. It is not the MPs because we do not stay in our own constituency. So I think it is better to leave it to RCs and CCCs to come up with proposals which we all are very happy. If Mr Chiam has any proposal in regard to the application of CIPC fund, he should approach Mr Gan and Mr Gan will decide in consultation with the RC and CCC members. If it is reasonable, I am sure the Chairman of CIPC will be more than pleased to approve. 1.00 pm Mr Low Thia Khiang rose -”
“I have actually applied for CIPC funds. I am an advisor to the grassroots organisation as well as the MP. As far as most of us are concerned here, I think we are very happy with the system and if we are so happy with the system, why change it. Mr Low Thia Khiang: The answer is very simple. This is because you are from the PAP.”
“Sir, whether Mr Chiam is now the Leader of the Opposition or whether he belongs to the Workers' Party, I thought he should actually drive home the point of what he really wants from the Ministry for Potong Pasir, rather than Hougang because Mr Low Thia Khiang did not even file a complaint about Hougang. If so, he would have put in an amendment.”
“Sir, can I seek clarification from Mr Chiam?”
“I thank the Senior Parliamentary Secretary for his reply and beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.”
“I observe that their materials are all very bulky items and cannot be stored in a normal warehouse. The second question I would like to ask the Acting Minister concerns the site at Woodlands Avenue 9. What plan has the Government made for the development of this site? The Government's policy is to help the local small and medium enterprises so that their business will prosper. So for all these companies whose leases are running out, can something be done to help them?”
“Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head U of the Main Estimates be reduced by $10 in respect of Code UG 2000. Sir, I have received complaints from some tenants living in the shophouses in my GRC that when they were asked to vacate their premises by the landlords, very often they were given a very short period of time to move out. Worse still, the HDB did not even give them priority in terms of allocation of flats. I was also told that the Tenants' Compensation Board (TCB) did not award them with an appropriate sum, ie, the sum awarded to such tenants was too low. So I would like to know from the Minister whether the Ministry will be able to help in terms of getting rental HDB flats or purchase flats fast for such tenants. Secondly, can the minimum sum awarded by TCB be raised? Thirdly, would TCB be able to impose a longer grace period of time for the tenants to move out or until they have an HDB flat? Mr Cheo Chai Chen( In Mandarin): Sir, the Ministry of National Development has rented out a large open space in Woodlands Avenue 9 to some companies to store their building materials and bulky motorcar spare parts. The lease will expire on 31st March this year. Many of these companies are very worried because their lease is expiring and they have to move out. Now they are faced with a big problem, that is, they cannot find an alternative site to store their building materials and other goods which are very bulky. Therefore, I would like to ask the Acting Minister two questions. First, is the Ministry of National Development going to arrange for some other sites, which have no immediate development plan, to be leased out to these affected tenants, so that they will have a place to store their building materials and motorcar spare parts.”
“In principle, I cannot disagree with the fact that since we have already done the same for cars, why should we not have different categories for motorcycles. However, the available data indicate that buyers of small motorcycles are not being squeezed out by buyers of big motorcycles. In fact, in 1994, despite an increase in COE prices for motorcycles, 73% of motorcycles registered were 200 cc and below. This is, in fact, higher than the figure in 1993 when the COE price for motorcycle was $1. On the other hand, despite the introduction of more models of large motorcycles, only 9% of motorcycles registered in 1994 were above 400 cc. However, we will keep monitoring the situation and if need be, we will make adjustments. Sir, one final point and that is in response to Mr Charles Chong's question about the progress of Changi Airport Terminal 3. The concept design for Terminal 3 (T3) is currently going on. It will be ready by the middle of this year. CAAS is working on the detailed design and this will also tie in with MRTC's study on the possible extension of the MRT to the airport. In the meantime, while we are working on T3, we are also expanding T1 and T2. This is in order to make sure that Changi Airport remains ahead of demand as well as ahead of the competition. T2 is going to be expanded to cater for 23 million passengers and T1 to cater for 20 million passengers. Overall, the objective is to squeeze maximum capacity out of the existing terminals and infrastructure without compromising any standard of service. Mr Charles Chong will be pleased to know that the capital cost for T3 will be borne by the CAAS out of the accumulated surpluses.”
“But, inevitably, as I said, whenever we tinker with the free play of the market by introducing more regulations, we give rise to market practices that try to circumvent these regulations. And these new practices, in turn, call for even more intervention and more regulations. For example, when we stopped the practice of transferability, the practice of double transfers evolved. So what we need to do is to constantly fine-tune the system, to constantly trade off between economic efficiency and social equity. Mr Chiam also mentioned that we should try and keep COE prices down. Sir, we are now in the process of conducting an experiment on double transfers. I am not sure what the result of this trial is going to be. My Ministry maintains and believes that ultimately, at the end of the day, prices will move depending on how the demand for COEs moves. But during this trial period, we shall keep an open mind and we will see how prices move. Until the results of the double transfer trial are out, I do not intend to make any other changes to the system. In so far as transparency of the bidding process is concerned, I am not sure whether Mr Chiam is aware that all successful bid prices are actually publicly available at the Registry of Vehicles. That is as transparent as we can make the system. And if anybody is interested, he can always go to the ROV and check the prices. There is no hanky-panky involved. All the bids come in at the same time. All of them are opened. The results are posted for everybody to see. That is as far as transparency of the system is concerned. Mr Harun Ghani raised the point about whether we should have different categories of COEs for motorcycles.”
“I think they will be very happy to consider those applications favourably. 3.45 pm Sir, may I now turn to the two points that were raised by Mr Heng and Mr Chiam See Tong earlier about the COEs. Mr Heng has raised the point about considering a new form of COE, or amending the current COE system. He has given me details about the proposal. My Ministry will study his suggestion carefully. But let me take this opportunity to remind the House that every time we tinker with the COE system, inevitably, it leads to other unintended consequences. In fact, when we started the COE system, what we should have done if we wanted to have the most economically efficient system was to have one single big COE category and to make all the COEs fully transferable and fully tradable. But I think we all recognise the need to balance the advantages of the market and to trade off market efficiency against social equity and other considerations. That is why in response to many concerns, particularly the buyers of small cars, who were concerned that they should not be made to compete with buyers of large or luxury cars, or the buyers of goods vehicles who were concerned that they should not be made to compete with buyers of private cars, because they maintain that goods vehicles are essential, private cars are not, this is the reason why we designed the COE system in such a way that there are different categories for different groups of vehicle buyers. Then in response to concerns that speculative activities were driving up COE prices, we made most categories of COEs non-transferable. Later on, on the advice of Mr Heng Chiang Meng's committee, we decided on a 12-month period to ban the transfer of car ownership within the first three months of registration.”
“I would like to clarify, Sir. To a certain extent, I disagree with Mr Peh. However, on the point about free-for-all competition, I would rather accept the Minister's point of view. But I would like the Minister to consider allowing private operators to operate feeder bus services within the GRC. I am not asking for elsewhere. I think Mr Peh is a bit ambitious. I am just asking for my GRC. Mr Mah Bow Tan: I believe Mr Peh and Mr Choo are GRC colleagues so I am not quite sure which services they are referring to. But, nevertheless, let me just inform Mr Peh that the applications from private bus operators to run bus services are all considered by the PTC. And if the PTC feels that this private operator is able to run the service without duplicating to a large extent the main bus operator's routes, then there is no reason why they will not approve. The reason for this is very simple because any private operator can come in and say, "Look, I want to run a service which is profitable. But don't ask me to run any other service or insist that I run a service which is unprofitable." So when it comes to an application from private bus operators, the PTC has to consider to what extent this new application will cream off revenue from the existing operators. I think that is the main consideration that they have. As far as shuttle bus services or feeder bus services are concerned, I do not see any reason why the PTC will reject operators from running feeder services. And I can tell you the reason is because most of the feeder services do not make money. In fact, I am told that none of the applications from private bus operators to the PTC are for feeder services. So if there is an operator who is willing to run a feeder service in any constituency, please let the PTC know.”
“Secondly, when a card is lost, irrespective of where he lives, the holder will have to go all the way to Buona Vista station to get a replacement. I think this is a very troublesome process. Consideration should be given for card replacement to be available in other areas. At present, there is a charge of $5 for each card replacement. To the old people, $5 can be a big sum. The replacement should be done free of charge. We could use post offices, the Neighbourhood Police Posts, community centres, bus terminals, to facilitate the senior citizens in applying for the concession cards or for replacement thereof. This would save them a lot of inconvenience. At present, the concession card can only be used during the non-peak hours during weekdays and on Sundays and public holidays. Since we are giving them the concession, we should try to be more liberal. Let them enjoy the concession rate at all times and not just be confined to the non-peak hours, so that the senior citizens will be able to enjoy the concession at all times. I hope the Minister can give a more positive answer to my plea.”
“Much obliged, Sir. (In Mandarin): Sir, Mr Peh Chin Hua has already spoken on the shuttle bus services. I would like to take part in this debate. I would like to thank the Minister for his understanding of the need for shuttle service. I hope that he will continue to give Jalan Besar GRC the assistance in providing such services. During my meet-the-people sessions and my visits, I understand that the bus service in the Whampoa area is grossly inadequate. I hope the Minister will seriously look into the matter. We also have similar problems in other parts of my constituency. I hope the Minister will do his best to help us out. On senior citizens' need for public transport, I would like to make some suggestions about the concession cards. When we refer to senior citizens, we mean the old people. We want to help them to live a happy life in their twilight years. These people have made their contribution to society and to the country and I believe that after their retirement, we should give them all kinds of assistance and convenience available as a form of reward for their past services. I do not think that old people should be staying at home most of the time. So if they go out of their homes, visit their friends, do something useful for themselves, the Minister for Communications should consider how to help these senior citizens better. At the moment, the concession pass for senior citizens is not good enough. I think there should be some improvement. I have four points to raise. Firstly, I hope that the Ministry of Communications will lower the minimum age from 60 to 55. In other words, those who have reached 55 will be eligible to apply for a concession card.”
“Sir, I have two cuts. May I take them together?”
“Sir, I have two amendments. May I take them together?”
“Sir, I would like to raise my point again very quickly. The Minister of State mentioned that schools without discipline are not schools. I think schools without discipline are bad schools. They are distinctly different from good schools. As I said, 0.6%, or whatever percentage, which he mentioned earlier, is quantitative. I am talking about the qualitative problem of it. I think we really need to look into the long-term implications rather than the short term approach to such a problem in our schools. Mr Chiam See Tong rose ---”
“Sir, allow me to clarify. First of all, it was Mr Peh Chin Hua who mentioned about St Hilda's Secondary School and not me. Second, I would like to air my views about the seriousness of disciplinary problems in schools. The fact that the number of students who are being caned is low does not imply that there is no problem. You cannot quantify. I think we have to qualify the problem. For example, the Straits Times reported on 13th March 1995 that the CID would look into the problem of rising youth crime, of which 2,108 were arrested. I would like to know how many of these 2,108 were students in Singapore. Third, I would really like the Minister of State to consider setting up a committee to look into suggestions raised by Principal Chen in his article which was published in the Bulletin of the Singapore Chinese Teachers' Union. I think the problem of discipline in schools cannot be understated by mentioning the low numbers. There may be cases where principals and teachers felt that it would not be nice to be reported because of face, because of the ranking of the school, or for other reasons like knowing that the teachers or principals have been beaten up by students and therefore they do not want to cane them. So I think we have to look at it seriously. I wish the Minister of State will give me a positive reply.”
“So it is a good thing to have surpluses.”
“Sir, I am still not convinced with Mr Chiam's answers. Since he cannot answer me on how to reconcile having surpluses and having a tough time ahead, can he tell me how many countries in the world are having deficits and yet the people are enjoying it?”
“Sir, I have four questions to ask Mr Chiam. First of all, I wonder how Mr Chiam will reconcile the fact that a country having surpluses means that the people will have a tough time ahead. The second question is whether he would consider volunteering his Potong Pasir ward to have a water shut-down for two or three days per week to encourage people to save water. Thirdly, I am not an engineer, but I would like to know how can a dam be so easily built by piling mud and rock. Maybe he can explain. Fourthly, he talked about upgrading of old estates. I think the Prime Minister already mentioned before that all of us have got to queue. I do not think Mr Chiam would like the Government to carry out upgrading projects in the four Opposition wards and not in the other PAP wards. All of us have got to wait. So be a bit more patient.”
“May I seek clarification, Sir, from Mr Chiam?”
“I would like to join in the debate. First of all, I think it is good news to many first-timers. However, what I am worried about is that a lot of first-timers will ask why the ratio is 60%:40%. Given the anxiety among the first-timers, I wonder whether the Minister will give a higher percentage to the first-timers as opposed to the 60% now. I am sure many questions will be asked on why 60% and 40%. Probably the Minister could consider giving a higher percentage to the first-timers for the initial couple of years and then gradually go down to 60-40% or whatever appropriate percentages. The other thing that I am a bit worried is this. With this new scheme in place, there will be a lot more people who are really not in need of getting their flats for the immediate future and who will apply for HDB flats as first-timers. Such an influx of applicants will probably jeopardise those who are really in need as first-time purchasers. How is the Ministry going to tackle this particular influx of applicants? Also, I would like to know how the Minister is going to deal with mature estates like Jalan Besar GRC where there will be, I am sure, some small pockets of land being developed. Will the Ministry specially look into a mature estate like my constituency? Lastly, Mr Heng Chiang Meng and Dr Tan Cheng Bock mentioned about a single registration scheme. I do not quite agree with it. When first-timers apply for a flat, I am sure somehow they have already narrowed down to whichever area that they want to move to, and cross-over cases should not be too many. Probably special consideration could be given to such cross-over cases. By and large, I think we should really segmentise such applications. It will be easier and more expeditious.”
“The point to note is that whether or not it is an infringing copy under the Act depends on whether or not consent has been given by the copyright owner in the country of manufacture as to the manufacture of the product. We have to distinguish between a manufacturing process and a right of distribution. Question put, and agreed to. Bill accordingly read a Second time and committed to a Committee of the whole House. The House immediately resolved itself into a Committee on the Bill. - [Assoc. Prof. Ho Peng Kee]. Bill considered in Committee; reported without amendment; read a Third time and passed. CONSTITUTION OF THE REPUBLIC OF SINGAPORE (AMENDMENT NO. 2) BILL Order for Second Reading read. 2.15 pm”
“Mr Speaker, I rise to speak in support of the Bill. The Bill introduces amendments that will clearly reflect Government's policy of allowing genuine products, ie, copyright products, to be imported into Singapore by persons other than the authorised distributors. This clarification is to be welcomed as it will inject certainty into our law and practice. Sir, this is in line with Singapore's free market policy. To me, it makes sense that if a product is not a counterfeit or pirated copy, but a genuine product made with the consent of the copyright owner in the country of manufacture, such a product should be allowed to be imported and sold in Singapore. This will enable Singaporeans to have a wider choice of products which they can purchase and also at cheaper prices. Sir, this is important as we want to build Singapore into a shoppers' paradise. I have no doubt that this factor of variety and price will work towards the benefit of consumers. I have only one small question to ask, ie, if an authorised distributor of a foreign country were to sell his products to an authorised distributor in Singapore, will that be considered as an infringement of the copyright law? I am pleased with the approach that the Ministry has taken on this matter. It was a carefully considered one. No doubt, it has taken some time. But at least the position is now clear. The Government has reaffirmed the policy that it announced in 1987 of allowing parallel imports which are now more clearly defined under the Bill. Once again, I support the Bill. Assoc. Prof. Ho Peng Kee: Sir, I thank the Member for his support of the Bill. He asked one query.”
“Sir, I am happy to note that we are not having a serious brain drain problem. However, I would like to ask the Minister whether he has any contingency plans if we were to have this brain drain problem in future because replenishing a doctor, especially a specialist doctor, takes a long time. BG Gorge Yong-Boon Yeo: There is no significant brain drain problem among our doctors because in most countries the profession is a highly regulated one. They put all kinds of hurdles before you are admitted to practise as a member of the profession. So this is not something which can happen suddenly overnight and over which we are not able to react gradually over a period of time.”
“And this will also reduce the frustration of those patients who thought they had something serious, but when they arrive, found that the GP can look after them and there is no need for them to pay higher rates anyway at the A&E department. This is an idea which we are considering at the Ministry. We will get one or two of the restructured hospitals to try it. It is a pilot project. If it works and people are happy with the service, we will proliferate it at all our A&E Departments. 5.00 pm”
“In other words, there is a whole hierarchy and there are seniors overseeing the work done by juniors. Medical officers are required to have at least one year post-housemanship experience before they are posted to the A&E department. They are also required to undergo two weeks intensive course on A&E medicine prior to their posting. The A&E medicine course focuses on the management of the more common medical problems seen at the department. There are presently 15 medical officers who are trainees in emergency medicine and 7 medical officers trained in emergency medicine. These doctors are then posted to the various A&E departments in MOH Government and restructured hospitals. Senior doctors are on duty at the department, either in the hospital or in the department throughout the day and night. And they are always on call and available for consultation by junior doctors on the management of problem cases at the A&E department. The problem with our A&E department is that many people, particularly at night when the neighbourhood clinics are closed, are not sure whether a particular complaint is serious or not. So just to be safe, they go to the A&E. When they go to the A&E, there are other emergency cases and they end up having to wait for a long time and the doctors who are busy would tell them, "Look, your case is not serious, you have to wait." Or maybe come back the following day if they do not want to wait. Then they get upset. This is a problem which all A&E departments face. MOH is considering the feasibility of having a 24-hour GP-type of clinic, situated in proximity to an A&E department, so that cases which are non-emergency can go and see the GP instead. This will free doctors at the A&E department.”
“He asked whether we could not remove co-payments and deductibles and extend the age limit beyond 70 years of life. Deductibles and co-payments are important because they keep the system under control. If there are no deductibles, there will be a tendency towards moral hazard, towards over consumption, which is the problem in country after country in the West. So we are learning from their mistakes and we are putting these safeguards to ensure that our insurance does not become inflationary. As to raising MediShield age limit beyond 70, this is a matter we are now studying very carefully, because it involves subsidy across generations. If we do not subsidise across generations, then we have to charge very high premiums for those who are above 70. Some consultants have advised us to allow cross-subsidy for a person within his own lifetime. In other words, he pays more premium when he is younger in order to subsidise himself when he is older. I think this is something which we can consider. But we do not want lightly to subsidise across generations without doing very careful actuarial analysis. Because once you extend, you cannot reduce. Before we extend, let us be very careful. The Ministry of Health is now reviewing terms for MediShield and we hope that we can improve the package somewhat within a few months. Mr Choo Wee Khiang asked about the way we run our A&E departments, because, as is to be expected, there are many complaints about the services there. The A&E departments are staffed by both junior and senior doctors. There are medical trainees, medical officers, registrars and senior registrars. And the Head of the A&E department is a consultant or senior consultant.”
“Dr Wan Soon Bee asked whether we are not controlling tightly enough the availability of high-tech equipment. As I said earlier, we have established procedures to vet the cost benefit of expensive equipment and facilities before they are introduced to the public and restructured hospitals. This is an MOH responsibility. Every such investment has to be approved by a board at MOH first before we agree to the purchase of the equipment or the installation of the facilities. He raised MRI as an example of where it has gone out of control. In fact, this is not true. We have not been excessive in buying MRIs in Singapore. I have got some statistics here to show that we have about three-quarters of a million persons to an MRI which compares with 700,000 in Korea and about 850,000 in Hong Kong. This is comparing among the NIEs. In Japan, it is about 73,000 persons to an MRI. So there are many more MRIs in Japan per million than we have in Singapore. These figures are as of June 1993. If you look at it around the world, in the US, it is about 100,000 in 1991 per MRI. But then we have all agreed that it is an example we do not want to follow. In Europe, most of the countries there have more MRIs per million than we have. So I do not think we have been excessive and MRI is not a good example of where high-tech equipment has gotten out of control. Mr Choo Wee Khiang asked whether there is duplication. The same procedure applies. Before we duplicate, we must be convinced of the necessity and if it makes more sense to centralize the facility, we centralize. This was a question raised by Dr Michael Lim earlier. Mr Loh Meng See asked whether we could not improve MediShield terms since we are accumulating surpluses.”
“I mentioned earlier that it is very important not to let greed become the dominant operating element in the system. We have to control the supply of doctors because the experiences of other countries have shown that there is a tendency for supply here to generate its own demand. So we have decided on 180 doctors; 150 doctors trained locally plus 30 more from established institutions overseas, and then we calibrate around that. If we feel later that the proportion needs to be tweaked either up or down, then we will do so accordingly. I do not think there is a danger that we will suddenly find ourselves with a big shortfall of doctors in Singapore. We are now targeting to have the kind of doctor-population ratio which is found in advanced countries. Mr Choo Wee Khiang asked whether there is a brain drain of doctors from our public sector to the private sector. For junior doctors, it is not a problem. In fact, we have had to release many of them from their bond because there is an over supply. The problem is among those who are more senior. There, the situation in most of the restructured hospitals is not alarming. The outflow varies from year to year depending on the situation in the market, depending on whether the private hospitals are opening up new wings and having more beds. In the last few years, the market has become more active, so more have been leaving. And it is about 10% a year from the restructured hospitals. It is a situation which is not under control. It is part of the natural flow rate which we want in any case in our hospitals. Some who feel that they are not getting into positions of leadership feel frustrated, they leave. There is no great harm. It is good to have continuous renewal anyhow.”
“Sir, as statistics would show, our general public do lean heavily on the A&E departments in the Government and restructured hospitals, in cases of accidents and emergencies. I would like the Minister to enlighten us on how the quality of A&E care in Singapore compares with that of the other trauma centres or A&E departments in the developed and developing countries. Would it be a misconception that patients in the A&E departments are attended to only by junior doctors? Perhaps the Minister could help to dispel this misconception by informing the House on how the A&E departments in the Government and restructured hospitals are being staffed. What is the ratio of senior doctors to junior doctors in these departments? Do our A&E doctors undergo any specialist training in emergency care or trauma care? What is the Ministry's plan to upgrade the quality of our A&E services, not in terms of the number of cases attended to, but in terms of the standard of care and treatment provided? BG George Yong-Boon Yeo: Sir, Mr Loh Meng See asked whether the Government was not encouraging the doctor-patient relationship to be a purely commercial one. I explained earlier that if that were to happen, then we will have the American situation where money will be the dominant nexus between doctor and patient. It will lead to legal suits. The system will get out of control and there will be poorer service for the patient. It is very important that doctors retain their high position in our community and that they are motivated more than just by financial incentives. While saying that, we cannot ignore money, because if the incentives are not right, then all those other things cannot come into operation. Our approach is to get the incentives right, but the incentives themselves are not enough.”