Chor Yeok Eng
Singapore
“I told her that perhaps she could try to sell some other type, say, dry curry powder in bottles which would not turn bad for months unlike the wet type. In the end she accepted my suggestion. I understand that she is doing well now. This is a complex question. I am giving this example only to show what could have been done.”
“Sir, the Member for Anson says that we have to look for a site. Of course, we have been looking for a site all the time. He said that if he were to select a place at a corner of Maxwell Road, or at the cross-roads, an important and busy traffic junction, whether we will be prepared to build a hawker centre there.”
“Sir, I did not get a translation of the earlier part of the Member's speech in Tamil but I have the latter part of it. The Member for Anson was saying that we have a responsibility to look for a site for a hawker centre.”
“Sir, the Member for Jurong asked about the contents of the courses. I have already mentioned that they are given basic courses on administration, law enforcement and their handling of members of the public. In a big Ministry it may be possible that one or two officers may have so conducted themselves as to cause misunderstanding.”
“Sir, in the past there was perhaps one market in Maxwell Road in Anson. Now as the Anson constituency has been enlarged, he now has other markets which include the PSA markets.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, I think it is because of our policy a few years ago to reduce the number of hawkers in Singapore that this age restriction was imposed. It does not necessarily mean that all hawkers must be above the age of 40. In fact, before 1973 a lot of hawkers were in the age group of 20 years and 30 years.”
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“I told her that perhaps she could try to sell some other type, say, dry curry powder in bottles which would not turn bad for months unlike the wet type. In the end she accepted my suggestion. I understand that she is doing well now. This is a complex question. I am giving this example only to show what could have been done. As regards any future publicity and education and so on, I think I will get my staff to liaise with the Member for his advice and help. Mr Ho See Beng( In Mandarin): I would like to ask the Senior Parliamentary Secretary whether, besides the case of the widow mentioned, there were any widowers who also sought his help. Mr Chor Yeok Eng( In Mandarin): Perhaps not a few similar cases had also come to seek the Member's help. Encik Othman bin Haron Eusofe: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment by leave, withdrawn.”
“Sir, as to the suggestion of the Member for Jurong that letters to the hawkers be written in Chinese, we will give consideration to it. But so far we have found it difficult to get suitable translators for our Department and we are still trying to overcome this problem. As regards the clarification of the Member for Mountbatten on the point that hawkers who are successful in business would not return to see the Member of Parliament except only the failures, I would like to say that I was only trying to say that our resettlement programme has been successful and that is why not many hawkers have returned to look up their Members of Parliament. Of course, all Members of Parliament are willing to help the poor people and would welcome them. I am not saying that this kind of work is wrong. It is correct, and we should praise the Members of Parliament, particularly the MP for Mountbatten, for attending to such people. 5.45 p.m. What I am saying is that it is difficult for some people to adjust to the social changes. Although we try our best to help them, it usually takes a very long time for such people to adapt to the new situation. This is not just peculiar to Mountbatten constituency. In my constituency the same situation obtains also. A few years ago, when Clementi area and the Jurong Town Hall were being built, a lot of village farmers had to be resettled. A widow came to see me several times about a hawker stall. In the end I found her the only stall left, a stall to sell curry powder in the market. "I could not take that stall," she said, "because I am not an Indian. Only Indians sell curry powder." She said that she might not sell all the curry powder and they would go bad the next day and so might not make a profit.”
“Fighting does not take place unilaterally. There are two sides to a fight.”
“Sir, the Member for Jurong asked about the contents of the courses. I have already mentioned that they are given basic courses on administration, law enforcement and their handling of members of the public. In a big Ministry it may be possible that one or two officers may have so conducted themselves as to cause misunderstanding. If the Member for Jurong welcomes our officers to his meet-the-people sessions, we are prepared to send them there.”
“If he does not bring up the proposal, we will still consider carefully on our own whether there is any suitable site for any hawker centre to be put up.”
“Sir, the Member for Anson says that we have to look for a site. Of course, we have been looking for a site all the time. He said that if he were to select a place at a corner of Maxwell Road, or at the cross-roads, an important and busy traffic junction, whether we will be prepared to build a hawker centre there. The question of putting up a hawker centre is not decided by my Ministry alone. I am sure the Member for Anson knows well that before any planning approval is granted, it has to go through several relevant Ministries. It is only when there is a concurrence of ideas between the various Departments and officers concerned that the construction will be approved. So it is not for one particular Ministry to decide on a construction project. We have to consider the overall common interest of the people. It is not as simple as he says, that so long as he selects a place we can put a hawker centre. The matter is not so simple as that.”
“Sir, I did not get a translation of the earlier part of the Member's speech in Tamil but I have the latter part of it. The Member for Anson was saying that we have a responsibility to look for a site for a hawker centre. I have already stated earlier that in the short term we have no plans to build a new hawker centre in the Anson constituency. Since the Member for Anson has been a Member for Anson for such a long time, he should know his constituency very well. So if he has any idea I am sure his idea will be very much better than the civil servants' idea. I would like to appeal to him that if he or his CCC feels that there is any suitable site, we will give it very serious consideration.”
“Sir, in the past there was perhaps one market in Maxwell Road in Anson. Now as the Anson constituency has been enlarged, he now has other markets which include the PSA markets. In any case if the Member for Anson feels there is a further need for a new market, as I have already said, then we have to consider it in the light of any development plan for the constituency. If he has a suitable site to propose then we will certainly consider it.”
“If the Member for Telok Blangah can bring up the hardship cases to our attention we will give special consideration to them.”
“Sir, at the present moment there is no plan in my Ministry to build a new hawker centre in Punggol, but if the Member concerned can propose a suitable site we will make a serious study of his proposal.”
“I believe that the market officials and the people involved with that market have already themselves seen the MP concerned about related matters. Lastly, as regards the Member for Telok Blangah's point about closer liaison between the Ministry of the Environment and the statutory boards, like the JTC. PSA, the HDB in order to have some kind of common policy in dealing with hawkers, I will say that these four establishments had already in July 1975 set up a Hawkers Coordinating and Licensing Committee to harmonise mutual policies in order to unify the respective policies so that in future there will be a common policy to deal with hawkers' problems and we have now more or less achieved this objective. But in view of different backgrounds, there would be certain differences in the actual implementation of the policy. So it is not easy to change the situation in a short time. However, we are trying our best to overcome these problems. Finally - I have used this word so many times already - the Member also asked whether the Hawkers Department can issue a joint or co-operative hawker's licence for several people or a group of people to operate a stall jointly. In principle, it may be good for a society, but administratively it will be difficult, because there is the possible problem of subletting. Normally we issue licences to individuals and not to groups of persons. So for the time being we cannot accept this suggestion. I think I have replied to all the questions raised. 7.45 p.m.”
“If there are such irregular practices, then we will take steps to cancel the hawkers' licences of the persons concerned. We will not allow such things to happen. As regards pasar malam, last week I said in this House, when we receive complaints against the pasar malam stallholders we cannot do otherwise but take action against them. Nevertheless, for their livelihood, we will try to allocate stalls in some markets or food centres for them. Lastly, several points were raised by the Member for Geylang Serai. As regards the new market at Haig Road how many stalls are there and how many will be allotted to Muslim stallholders and how many to non-Muslim stallholders, my answer is that in this new market there are altogether 218 stalls, of which 146 are stalls for the sale of meat, vegetables and daily consumer goods. The other 72 are meant for the sale of cooked food. As regards how many stalls are to be allocated to Muslim stallholders and to non-Muslim stallholders, it will have to depend on the number of stallholders that will be moved into this market. The other point is the separation of stalls selling beef and mutton from those selling pork with an appreciable distance between them. Of course, it has always been the Government's policy to separate them well from each other. So we will again properly apply the same policy. The final point the Member raised is that when a new market is to be opened, whether the MP for that constituency will be invited to officiate at the opening ceremony. This again falls within our usual policy. Whenever a new market is to be opened, we will invite the MP concerned in that area to discuss among other things matters relating to the opening of the market.”
“What has come to our notice is that some foreigners were involved in the incidents. So in this respect, we have to enforce our law and protect our citizens' benefits. The Member for Anson has asked whether markets will be built in Anson constituency or whether food centres will also be built there. Verbally, though not officially, the Member for Punggol has also mentioned about similar questions as to whether markets or food centres will be built in his constituency. My reply here is, taking Anson constituency for example, it is in an urban area and there are already some markets there. As to whether there is a need to build a new market there, it has to depend on future development plans. Although the Member for Punggol has not made any official request, for his information I would say that in Punggol constituency perhaps it is easier to get the necessary land, As to whether the site will be suitable, again it will have to depend on further discussion and study. If the Member concerned thinks that it is necessary and there is a proper site to build a market or food centre in his constituency. I hope he will raise the matter with us and we will give it serious consideration. The Member for Anson has raised two points. First. he hopes that we will control the hawker prices or fix the prices of food sold by them in order to be fair to the customers. I doubt whether it would be fair to the hawkers to do so, because they get their supplies from the merchants. So the prices are not within their control. To ask the hawkers to sell at certain prices is not practical. Prices fluctuate according to the market situation. I think it may suffice if they label their prices themselves if they want to. As regards subletting of hawker licences, we are paying attention to this matter.”
“He mentioned the attitude of certain hawker inspectors when carrying out their duty and asked whether they are given a period of training. Here I would like to explain in detail so that they can understand better. When new staff are recruited, everyone of them would be sent for a period of at least half a year in the basic principles of dealing with the public so as to get them familiar with public relations. Not only new recruits are trained, but also old and senior staff are sent for refresher course in the hope that this will raise their efficiency. On the other hand, a fact we should recognise is that all those officers concerned with the work of enforcement, are carrying out difficult tasks. They have to face occupational hazards. When carrying out their duty they are usually faced with difficult situations. It is quite risky in certain circumstances and the public do not understand them well. While they are faced with various difficulties, they do not receive any psychological encouragement at all. Therefore, there have been frequent resignations from these people. So sometimes it is difficult for us to arrange such staff for our work. Generally speaking. I can say that we have already achieved our purpose or objective in tackling the hawker problem. Of course, there cannot be perfection all round. Certain problems still remain to be solved. It is only natural. I also said that in dealing with unlicensed hawkers, there could be unpleasant scenes and sometimes even fighting would take place. But the loser will not only be the unlicensed hawkers but also our staff. Some of our staff have suffered injury in such incidents. Some even had to undergo medical treatment for quite some time.”
“On the allocation of tuckshop stalls in the schools, there is an allocation committee under the Ministry of Education; so this is not directly under the control of the Hawkers Department. I refer particularly to stalls in the school tuckshops or canteens. Since many Members are not quite familiar with the point regarding the 5% of stalls allotted to certain people, I would like to clarify. Regarding the 5% stalls allotted to certain hardship cases, this only applies to newly built markets or food centres on first balloting of stalls. If there are subsequent vacancies in these new markets or food centres or in respect of old markets, then such cases are not within the 5% scope. They do not come under the scope of 5% allocation of stalls any more. Maybe some people will ask why in recent years the Government has been so strict in issuing licences to hawkers. The main reason is that for the long-term policy of the Government we want all the open air hawkers to move into sheltered hawker centres in order to achieve our anti-pollution policy. It is also meant to raise our standard of public hygiene. 7.30 p.m. I think Members are aware that the cost of constructing new markets/food centres has increased with the average cost per stall ranging from $10,000 to $15,000. So under these circumstances, we have to consider this matter carefully. Some Members have also asked whether we should increase the 5% stalls to a higher percentage. After my explanation I believe they can understand that at the moment it is not necessary or not possible to raise the 5% allocation in new markets to a higher percentage. We will not give it any prior consideration for the time being. Another matter touched upon by the Member for Bukit Panjang relates to the work of our department.”
“Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, several Members have raised various questions touching on the Hawkers Department under the Ministry of the Environment. They have made certain criticisms, In view of the time factor, I will just give some brief answers. First of all, let me touch upon what the Member for Kim Seng and others have mentioned in this House over the past few days. On the definition of hardship cases, briefly speaking, the term includes cases where the head of the family is unemployed, or physically incapacitated, and the family earning a total family income of not more than $250, and those who are recipients of public assistance. This also includes certain resettlement cases where the people are affected by the Government's development plans but could not get compensation as farmers. All these are hardship cases. They come under the definition of hardship cases. The Member for Kim Seng has mentioned another point. In fact, he has mentioned several points. I would just like to touch upon his point on the age limit. Generally speaking, we say that the minimum age is 40 years and above. Concerning the young widows or people who have particular difficulties financially, then of course we will give special consideration. There are no hard and fast rules and strict application regarding the rules of 40 years of age, and so on. As regards the total income of $250 month, it is also not rigidly adhered to, We do give some allowance where the family concerned is big and is getting more than this amount slightly but who have a special need to spend more. We will consider the merits of each case and make a special decision or give them some allowance if they deserve. The principles serve mainly as guidelines.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, that is not our policy. In the long run, of course, we will still need the services of the hawkers. As regards the application by members of family for transfer of hawker licences, we have to consider each case on its own merit. For instance, if a hawker licence is held by the father and his children have been helping him all this time, then in such a case, we normally allow the transfer of a licence from the father to a member of his family. JURONG ROAD (Speeding by earth-carrying lorries) 7. Mr Ho Kah Leong asked the Minister for Home Affairs and Education what effective measures are being or will be taken to curb speeding by drivers of earth-carrying lorries along Jurong Road.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, as a long-term policy, we do not basically encourage roadside hawking. After 1973 we had ceased to issue any more licences for street hawking or roadside hawking. Hawker licences are only issued to those resettlement cases and they are accommodated in sheltered hawker centres. That has always been the policy of the Government because there are a lot of labour jobs without the people to take them. So it is our hope that our citizens will direct their energy to working in private enterprises, factories and other services.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, I think it is because of our policy a few years ago to reduce the number of hawkers in Singapore that this age restriction was imposed. It does not necessarily mean that all hawkers must be above the age of 40. In fact, before 1973 a lot of hawkers were in the age group of 20 years and 30 years. However, in cases of difficult family circumstances, for example, the applicant is a widow, those who are disabled or who have medical certificates to show that they are unable to undertake laborious manual work, then special consideration will be given to their application for hawker licences. As I have said, we are now reviewing our policy with a view to liberalising the restrictions on hardship cases, especially in regard to age restriction and other factors. An over-all review of the position is being undertaken at the moment. I think in future the conditions will be more relaxed.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, on this question I have already stated that the department directly concerned is charged with the responsibility for the investigation. For example, if it concerns the Housing Board, then the Housing Board is responsible for the investigation. If it is the Ministry of the Environment, then that Ministry will take action to investigate the applications, and so on. As far as I am aware, apart from asking the applicants concerned to come for interview, we even carry out on-the-site investigation by calling on the applicants in their homes.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, it is the committee which considers such cases. For example, if those affected are in JTC charge then, of course, the recommendation will come from the Resettlement Department of the JTC, and if those affected are in the Housing Board estates, then the recommendation will come from the Housing Board for consideration by the committee.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, on the point raised by the Member for Jalan Kayu, I would say that consideration is given by a committee to those people who suffer financial hardship directly as a result of resettlement or who have lost their means of livelihood in the process of resettlement. There are now four departments in charge of hawkers, namely, the Ministry of the Environment, the Housing and Development Board, the Port of Singapore Authority and the Jurong Town Corporation. So this coordinating committee, in charge of mutual matters and common measures, will consider such cases.”
“Sir, in answer to the question concerning the circumstances leading to the allocation of hawker stalls, I would say that basically approval is given to those who are affected to the extent of losing their opportunity to earn a living, for example, fishermen or farmers who, as a result of resettlement, have lost their means of livelihood. Another circumstance could be that the compensation they get is not much and that they are still in financial difficulties, then consideration will be given for the allocation of stalls to such people. On the other hand, hereafter we shall liberalise the issue of hawker licences for such people. As regards the number of cases of successful allocations, I have some figures here. In the whole year of 1976 168 resettlement cases have been allotted hawker stalls. But these hawker stalls are those built by the Ministry of the Environment, which are of the older type and are not popular, and only one farmer has accepted the offer. In the case of Jurong Town, seven have accepted the offers, whereas in the case of markets under the administration of the Housing and Development Board, 160 cases have accepted the offers. This is because in the Housing Board estates the markets are new and are all sited in population centres. Therefore, their stalls are more popular.”
“Sir, in my answer I have stated that there are 44 vacant stalls in the existing market. So in view of this, is there a need to expand the market to increase the number of vacant stalls? BEDOK HIGHWAY, BEDOK PLAIN AND BEDOK WALK (Change of names) 18. Haji Sha'ari Bin Tadin asked the Minister for Finance whether it is proposed to change the present names of Bedok Highway, Bedok Plain and Bedok Walk in Neighbourhood I of Bedok New Town, and what is the rationale behind the change. The Minister for Finance (Mr Hon Sui Sen): Sir, the present names of Bedok Highway, Bedok Plain, Bedok Walk, Bedok View, Bedok Drive and Bedok Place were given in 1973. Since then, the road patterns in the new town have changed. The Committee on Street Names which is responsible for the naming of new streets and alterations of existing street names has, in consultation with HDB, reviewed the street names in Bedok New Town. It has decided to change the existing names and introduce a new and simple system of street naming which will restrict the number of street names for the generic "Bedok" to street, road, avenue and lane, These Street names could be easily translated into other languages and local dialects. The new street names are as follows: Bedok North Road Bedok North Avenue 1 Bedok North Avenue 2 Bedok North Avenue 3 Bedok North Avenue 4 Bedok North Street 1 Bedok North Street 2 Bedok North Street 3 Bedok North Street 4 Bedok South Road Bedok South Avenue 1 Bedok South Avenue 2 Bedok South Avenue 3”
“I think the Member for Whampoa has not paid attention to my reply. He made several points regarding the old, the widowed and the destitutes. In my reply I said that the Government has all along been paying attention to all these hardship cases. But what I was trying to say was that, in the same locality you cannot put all the same type of people together because it was of no help to them. On the other hand, it would contribute to poor business in such centres because all these people might be inexperienced in their business. On another matter raised by him, namely. resettlement. I would say that under the Government resettlement scheme we certainly give favourable consideration to people who are required to be resettled and have thus lost their means of livelihood. We have in actual fact taken care of them. The Leader of the House (Mr E. W. Barker): Sir, Members can certainly speak freely but there are certain rules of debate in this House. Perhaps I should remind every Member that when they get up on a point of clarification, they are to make their point but not a five-minute speech. 3.50 p.m.”
“Seriously speaking, if we are short of such loyal and faithful uniformed personnel, then it will be worse for the people of Singapore and they cannot enjoy a life as comfortable as the one they have now, So, in view of this, we should not single them out and cavil too much about their faults and shortcomings. I believe that Members of this House will share my views.”
“So, in such diverse units, certain members of society occupy jobs which are better than the others. There are still others who carry out certain jobs which are less desired. Perhaps, we can say that it is individual luck, just as what is said in the Three Kingdoms. The strategist Kun Ming said: "Man proposes. God disposes." So, there must be somebody occupying some place in the society. Such are the difficulties and onerous tasks faced by the hawker inspectors. They are also part and parcel of our citizenry. In the course of their heavy duty, there may be certain faults or shortcomings. Very often these faults are quickly seized upon and criticised. However, seldom do we hear of any praises for any good work done by them in difficult circumstances. This is not fair to them. Therefore, lately, this work of uniformed officers is a job not liked by the young members of our society. For the same reason, there are people who are already in this kind of job in the Government service and they also want to leave. I am not trying to argue for them or to defend them. What I am saying is that there should be some clearcut line drawn between what is right and to be rewarded and what is wrong and to be punished. My contention is that if any of them has committed any serious and inexcusable error, then he should be severely punished. On the other hand, if any of them has not committed any error but has accumulated merits for diligent and faithful work, then we should by word or deed give them some commendation or encouragement.”
“At the same time, I hope they will strive to catch up with time and compete with the situation for their own good. I would like to appeal to the Member for Whampoa who is a learned and well informed economist and must be quite well versed with economic matters and the vicissitudes of economic situations. He should be able to show the people what to do and where to go. Therefore, I hope he can point out a way to such "drop-outs" to look for a new economic way out for them - of course, not to become hawkers alone - so as to provide new opportunities for them to make a living. At the same time, I would like to thank the Member for Anson for reminding me that we should pay more attention to penalising those hawker licence holders who do not operate the stalls but sub-letting their licence to other hawkers for profit. I thank the Member for such concern over the malpractice of sub-letting hawker licences, and we shall pay attention to him as we have always done so. Sir, after replying to all these questions. I would also like to avail myself of this opportunity to talk about the situation of our Ministry of the Environment staff to enlighten Members. These uniformed field officers, in the course of their duty, are often faced with a difficult and dangerous situation. Sometimes they have to carry out their duty late at night. Last month, there was a case where a thunder flash was thrown at a few staff of our Ministry when they were carrying out their duty in the early hours of the morning. Fortunately, nobody was injured. They were then dealing with a few cases of illegal foreign hawkers. If I do not explain this situation, Members may not quite understand. I have said earlier that a society consists of various units which interlink.”
“The main intention of the Government in the setting up of markets and food centres is to raise the standard of hygiene and to provide better services to the residents. Whether or not the removal of open-air street hawkers from their shabby pitches to well constructed food centres with better facilities will lead to better business actually depends on the individual hawker rather than the location. For instance, if the operator is not "positive" or a person without drive and his food does not suit his customers, then even though the locality is good, he may not get any good business. On the other hand, if he can provide cheap and good food and his services meet with the requirements of his customers, then even if his stall is at a somewhat lonely place, many customers will still go to his stall. As regards the choice of locality for setting up new markets and food centres and the provision of ancillary amenities, we have all along been dealing with such matters very carefully. We have always considered the need for a suitable locality for the convenience of the residents and customers. Generally, they are centrally placed and we would also provide supplementary facilities such as car parks, tables and chairs, sufficient space and other basic facilities. Sir, generally speaking, in this age of progress there will be produced two kinds of situations. In one situation, the people can change and adapt to the new environment, where they will be quite comfortable and march forward together with the progress. On the other hand, there will be those who cannot understand and hesitate; they do not adapt to the new situation and cannot face the challenge. So they become "drop-outs." I have full sympathy with such unfortunate people.”
“I will come to the point. (In Mandarin) Sir, if he can see further, he will realise that the hawkers do not constitute a significant number in the business population to influence the prices of commodities. The Member for Sembawang appears to be putting on the same shoes as the Member for Whampoa on this matter. It is the manufacturers/distributors, importers and more important the production countries that are responsible for the high increase in prices of commodities and inflation. Anyway, when we make adjustments to hawkers' fees, then hon. Members will have an opportunity to discuss or debate about this matter before we come to any conclusion or decision. The third point raised by the Member is that the Government should not abolish pasar ma/am which is a characteristic feature of nightlife in Singapore. In fact, there are many features of nightlife in Singapore, not just pasar ma/am alone. In addition this is a matter that affects the Government's long-term planning. The decisive factor as to whether pasar malam should be retained depends on several factors, such as whether the pasar ma/am is in a residential area, or along a main thoroughfare, or whether they will cause complaints of inconvenience to the residents, such as complaints of interference with traffic, noise and pollution, which the Government cannot just disregard. In such cases, the Government will have to consider the reallocation of sites for pasar ma/am hawkers to enable them to continue with their old trade of making a living. Such new sites may be in a market. The last point mentioned is that street hawkers should not be moved into a market or food centre where business is poor. This suggestion runs counter to the Government's policy and principle and is therefore difficult to accept.”
“I do not wish to give way, Sir. He will have a lot of time and opportunity to air his views. On this point we have made a careful consideration. In fact, the Government is not trying to increase hawker fees. In fact, it is only a matter of reducing the subsidy given because the subsidy to every hawker stall has been quite substantial and has to be reduced gradually from now. In fact, the present rate is still far less than what is being charged by the private hawker stalls, such as in private eating houses or coffee shops. It is about one-half or one-third of the fees charged by the private hawker stall proprietors. Whatever it is, when adjusting the fees to be charged, Members will be given an opportunity to discuss and debate the matter. When the time comes, if the Member for Whampoa can extend his vision further to understand the real situation without looking through his own blurred glasses -”
“Sir, allow me to continue. He has a lot of opportunity to air his views. Sir, other than what has been said about such people being poor, destitute, old, or in hardship, as the Member has said, there is another situation which will also have to be considered. That is when someone who is affected by Government's clearance scheme is required to be resettled and would thereby lose his means of livelihood. Now the other criticism is about the raising of hawkers' fees which might lead to an increase in prices.”
“Sir, just now the Member for Whampoa spelt out the criteria. If there is anybody who satisfies any one of the four criteria listed, of course, he will be considered. Now let me continue. Concerning the definition or conditions on the issue of licences to the 5% hardship cases -”
“Perhaps they might be responsible for the poor business of that hawker centre, and thus they would land themselves in greater difficulty. The Member also wants to know about the conditions for the allocation of 5% of licences to hardship cases, This is not easy to enumerate. I can only tell him briefly that -”
“Sir, I believe the Member for Kampong Chai Chee has forgotten another point. Changi is a much bigger area, perhaps 10 to 20 times bigger than Kreta Ayer. In view of this, the difference in the number of hawkers may not be so great. Maybe we have got to wait for another day when a proper survey can be made of the number of hawkers in these two constituencies. In the Kreta Ayer constituency there were 52 summonses issued. In the Rochore constituency there were 59 cases where hawkers were issued with summonses. At the same time, I have to reiterate that in 1967 when the exercise of adjustment of hawkers and the issue of licences was undertaken, the first constituency to have such action taken was Geylang West which was the constituency of the Minister who was in charge of the Hawkers Department then. The second constituency where the operation was done was Tanjong Pagar, the Prime Minister's constituency. From these facts we can say that we do not make any discrimination at all. Let me now talk about certain questions raised by the Member for Whampoa. He said that we should allocate more hawker stalls to those who are old, poor, destitute or those hardship cases. In fact, the Government has paid attention to this point for many years. But from our experience this is not a good way to help. I would like to say further that the allocation of stalls has been done after a thorough planning and consideration. The truth is that only with proper planning and operation can they make a profit. It is not just a matter of being allocated a stall and you can then make money. More important is that if you allot a large number of stalls to the old or destitute at the same place where the stall-holders lack experience, then it will be of no help to them.”
“On the other hand, I am sure Members of this House may not want to see a resurgence of the old situation some ten years ago where the roads, car parks and public places were all congested with hawkers, At that time unemployment was at its height. But today the situation is entirely different. We are faced with a shortage of labour. We had to issue thousands of work permits to allow foreigners to come here to work. So the question we are facing now is not the lack of jobs but the manpower. Under these circumstances, I believe the Members will, of course, be very clear about what to do and what to follow. The Member for Changi has made another criticism. He criticised that the hawker inspectors have been taking action only in the Backbenchers' constituencies and not in the Ministers' constituencies. This is again even more incorrect. Let me quote some figures to the Member for his reference. Since September 1976 until recently, in the Changi constituency there were only seven cases of summons against hawkers. In the Kreta Ayer constituency there were 52 summonses issued.”
“The Member expressed his dissatisfaction about certain hawker inspectors of the Ministry of the Environment for having taken action against certain unlicensed hawkers. I would like to ask him: if unlicensed hawkers are allowed the same rights as licensed hawkers, then what is the point of the Government issuing licences to the hawkers? What then is the use of setting up markets and food centres? Between these two categories of hawkers there must be some distinction made before the Ministry concerned can know how to exercise control. Furthermore, this matter is closely linked with the question of the maintenance of public hygiene and cleanliness and the preservation of the purity of water supply to ensure that there is no pollution. How are you going to exercise these functions without proper control? Sir. before us is a realistic question, do we want an orderly society or a loosely knit, undisciplined homestead? As a responsible Government we have to maintain law, order and peace for the people, and not just to curry favour with them. In so doing we may offend some people, but because of our duty and responsibility we have to try our best. The problem of hawkers had been dealt with between 1966 and 1973, that is a period of seven years, during which there was a nation-wide registration of hawkers and issuing licences to them. At present. there are altogether some 28,700 hawkers. Compared with the present population of our country, the number of hawkers is quite sufficient. In the Adendum to the President's speech this point has also been clearly stated.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, since the President made his policy speech in this House, many Members have spoken in the debate giving their criticisms or views, many of which seemed quite all right, moderate or objective. They merit the attention of this House and the attention of the Ministries concerned. On the other hand, certain criticisms do not seem practical; they even run counter to the policies and principles of the Government. Therefore, it behoves the Ministries concerned to reply, explain or to correct such criticisms. Sir, I believe hon. Members will agree with my views, that in the present living environment there are many matters which are easier to talk about than to act, not to speak of the complex entity of a society consisting of a very complicated structure made up of diverse factors. If we emphasise only one aspect of something it may lead to the neglect of other aspects. So only a balanced development can help maintain a balanced progress of a society. There is a Chinese saying to illustrate this point "Though the peony flower is beautiful, it needs green leaves to contrast and bring out its beauty." Moreover, before the plant can grow luxuriantly the gardener has to take a long time and much effort to fertilise, water and to cultivate the plant before it can come into bloom. Therefore, if we just look at things superficially without a deeper understanding and make certain assertions about them, that may not be correct. Therefore, I would like to correct certain criticisms levelled at the Environment Ministry by certain Members. At the same time, I will go a step further to explain the objects and the work of my Ministry. Sir, first of all. I will reply to the two points of criticism made by the Member for Changi.”
“Sir, it is because we feel that the site is not suitable for a market. We have built several markets in that vicinity. We have also moved the hawkers into the new market. The site on which the stalls had been demolished can be put to better use.”
“Sir, if we accede to the request of the Member for Anson and build a supermarket outside the house of every resident, it would be ridiculous. Nobody can do that. Since there are three markets in that vicinity, what more does the Member want?”
“Sir, my answer is that it depends on the population and the development needs of the area concerned. I have just said that 21 hawkers from the Silat estate have already been allotted new stalls in the Telok Blangah market. Where is the need to build another market, considering that there are three markets and hundreds of stalls to serve the small estate at Silat Square area? To build another market there will be a waste of public funds.”
“Sir, if the Member wants to know whether there will be a hawker centre there, my answer is no, because there are already three markets in that estate. There are more than enough stalls in the three markets. Several hawkers have already moved into the market at the Telok Blangah estate. There is no need for another hawker centre.”
“The Government provides stalls to the hawkers for them to make a living, not for somebody else to make unfair profit out of it.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, I think that the Member has not been listening to me at all. I have said that these people claimed that the stall was managed in this way: in the day time the business is conducted by the husband, while in the night the wife takes over. But according to our observations for one whole month, in the evenings the wife was not there at all. Instead, two other people, one of whom is a non citizen, were found working at that stall. If that is not subletting to someone else, how is it that for the whole period of one month the wife was never there in the evenings? So this is very clear evidence to show that someone else had been renting the stall. I would like to stress that the Government is subsidising the hawker stalls. So we must be strict as well as careful in seeing that each family can own only one stall in a hawker centre because of the subsidy. I would like to give an example. I hope the Member s not so naive as to think that the hawkers would prefer to rent private stalls at $200 ~o $500 each per month in private coffee shops. Stalls in Government hawker centres are not rented out. Hawkers are charged licence fees and the licence fee for a cooked food stall is $50 p.m, for both day and night sessions, and for other stalls the rate varies and it averages about $30 p.m. per stall. If the Member says that our action has been wrong, I will give another illustration. In the case mentioned just now about the woman hawker, her daughter is working as a cashier in her own eating shop. If this woman is not working in her own eating shop, then where can she be? How could she be working at the hawker stall at the same time? Is that not subletting? So I hope the Member would take note of this.”
“We wrote back to explain in detail why we had dealt with this case in the manner that we did, i.e, some of the licences of this family were rescinded, but the husband still kept his licence. The Member argued that our attitude had not been correct and that we had been treating the matter unfairly. In fact, the husband of that woman hawker is still there hawking. So if the Member concerned wants more details. I can supply him with more details later on. If the Member so desires, I would present the details in this Chamber.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Bras Basah has made certain criticisms against my department just now, and although my Minister has replied to him I would like to supplement his answer. On the question of revocation of licence of a hawker in his constituency. I would say that what he has said is far from correct. The position is that the hawker first sublet his stall to another person. Later someone else offered a higher price for that stall. This stallholder quite naturally let out his stall to the second person who offered a higher price. The first "sub-tenant" then complained to the Hawkers Department saying that the licensed stallholder possessed as many as seven licences, most of which were hired out to others, including non-citizens just as the Minister has pointed out. 4.00 p.m. Sir, as regards the case of the woman hawker whose husband was issued a summons, we have established the fact that someone else was renting the stall from this woman hawker. On receiving a complaint, we sent some hawker inspectors out to keep surveillance of the activities of this unauthorised hawker as well as the woman hawker. Surveillance was kept for nearly a month before we found out the truth that this woman hawker actually did sublet her stall to someone. As is usually the case, when the hawker inspector turned up one evening and issued a summons to the unauthorised hawker, the husband of this woman hawker popped out and argued that in the day the stall was under his management, while at night it was managed by his wife. However, our hawker inspectors knew the situation well enough and knew what was going on. So they issued this unauthorised hawker with a summons. Then the Member helped to appeal against our decision.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, it is the policy of my Ministry to encourage hawkers to move into suitable premises. To meet this long-term objective, the Hawkers Department has been constructing new markets and hawker centres to house street hawkers. No action has been taken against hawkers who sell piece and sundry goods inside shophouses. However, in the case of cooked food hawkers, they must sell in licensed food establishments. They must also apply for stall licences. The reason for this policy is to ensure that food establishments are suitable and large enough to house the food stalls and have adequate sanitary, washing and anti-water pollution facilities. If the Member for Bras Basah will let me have more details of the specific case mentioned, an investigation will be carried out. ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS WITH FORGED IDENTITY CARDS (Number of prosecutions) 11. Mr P. Govindaswamy asked the Minister for Home Affairs and Education how many illegal immigrants with forged identity cards were detected and prosecuted during the first ten months of 1975; and if he has any plans for a check to be made of all identity cards issued since 1967.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, all along it has been the policy of the Ministry of the Environment not to encourage hawkers to exchange their stalls or pitches. The same policy is also being followed by the Housing and Development Board and other quasi-Government bodies, like the Jurong Town Corporation. This is to prevent too many hawkers in any area from selling the same type of food or drinks, as this will affect the business of the hawkers. It also prevents the possible malpractice of hawkers asking for a premium or tea money in an exchange of stalls or pitches. In other words, we do not want stallholders or licensees to indulge in such malpractice for monetary profit. Hence the policy of discouraging the exchange of hawker stalls or pitches. HAWKERS SELLING IN SHOP PREMISES (Policy) 10. Mr Ho See Beng asked the Minister for Law and the Environment whether he is aware that hawkers, who sell their wares within shop premises instead of at their pitches, which the hawkers allege are unsuitable for the type of goods they are selling, have been issued with offence tickets by a hawker inspector, and if he will consider instructing the Hawkers Department to allow such hawkers to sell within shop premises, if they have the approval of the shopowners.”
“Sir, I think the best is for me to arrange a date with the Member for Jurong for an on-the-spot check to see how the problem can be solved. If that is agreeable, I believe he should be satisfied?”
“So, a little bit of splash on a rainy day is quite inevitable, because the hawker centres are not completely covered and sealed. In the mornings and afternoons when the sun is shining obliquely, a certain portion of the hawker centre is exposed to the sun. This is perfectly all right. I am sure we cannot have a complete perfectly designed hawker centre to meet the ideals of everyone. Sir, as regards hawkers whose requests have not been met, I would like to say that generally we accommodate their requests as far as we possibly can. In regard to water supply, the PUB is in charge, and it is not a matter for the Ministry of the Environment to handle alone. So we must have consultations to come to an arrangement with other relevant departments or ministries. But, generally speaking, whatever it is I am sure Members of this House will agree with me that, according to a Chinese saying, it is difficult to establish a business from scratch but it is even more difficult to maintain it. This is a problem that everybody, including a government, has to face. As the saying goes, good advice is unpleasant to the ear, so is good medicine bitter to the tongue. However, I would like to say to the Members who have spoken, that although they have made criticisms, some of them are constructive suggestions with good intentions, and I would like to thank them for all that has been said.”