Ong Teng Cheong
Singapore
“Mr Speaker, Sir, as of now, the position is this. We have signed an in-principle agreement with the Suzhou Municipality to help plan, develop and manage a township. There are two parts to this development. So far, we have put up a rough outline plan for the development of the township.”
“The consortium would include members or companies from both the Government as well as the private sector. Whether SLF will hold a significant share it has yet to be decided. I believe SLF will hold a very small share or no share at all, because, as I have said, our role is that of a facilitator.”
“Like all other projects undertaken by SLF, such as the Pasir Ris Resort, the Sentosa Beach Resort and the Orchid Country Club, the ultimate objective of SLF's investments is to help raise the social and economic status of our workers, and ensure that our workers will continue to enjoy a fair share of Singapore's progress.”
“Sir, I think Mr Chiam has got all this confused. PAP and NTUC run BEST classes jointly. NTUC does not run BEST classes by itself. George Sita, he is referring to, is a member of the SDP who stood against the PAP in the last election. He was employed jointly by NTUC and PAP.”
“NTUC Comfort is a co-operative. The taxi-drivers are members of the co-operative, and there were more than two members who had been removed from membership of the co-operative because of misbehaviour or misconduct, or arrears of their instalment payments, or whatever it is. There were many reasons why they were removed.”
“But when members of the co-operative are actively involved with opposition political parties against the PAP or NTUC, then they are acting against the resolution of the National Trade Union Congress, and it was a compliance of that resolution that action had to be taken against them.”
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“What is your question? Are you talking about National Day celebrations or you are talking about whatever we are celebrating? We have a lot of celebrations from June to December this year. I am trying to help you with your question. I believe what you want to know is the justification for celebrating Singapore's 25 years of nation building this year from June to December. This is what I announced not very long ago to the press. Is that your question?”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, as usual, the Member got his facts wrong. Nevertheless, perhaps I will help him with the question. He wants to know what is the justification for celebrating 25 years of nation building this year from June to December. Is that right?”
“Mr Speaker Sir, there is no plan to celebrate Singapore's National Day this year from June to December. So the question of the Member is irrelevant.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, as I said, SBS has to draw a line somewhere. Sixty years is a fair line to draw because even in the UK and US concessionary passes are given to women who are 60 years and above and for men 65 years and above. I think SBS's line at 60 years is a fair one. SERANGOON GARDEN ESTATE (Construction of car parks in business area) 4. Dr Lau Teik Soon asked the Minister for National Development if he will consider the construction of carparks in the business area in Serangoon Garden Estate.”
“Sir, I do not know whether there is anything more for me to add. The Member for Ayer Rajah is against legislation. I agree with him that we should not over-rule. But this piece of legislation is for the safety and health of workers. For the safety and health of the workers, which is given top priority in my Ministry, we want all doctors and employers to cooperate to ensure that the scarce resource that we have, which is manpower, is well protected and will continue to give us that high productivity that we expect to get from them.”
“Sir, the DFD course organized by NPB is open to all doctors. We are not creating a special and exclusive group of DFDs. All doctors who have gone through this course will become DFDs, and my Ministry officials will be very happy if all doctors go through this part-time course to become DFDs.”
“Sir, I agree with the Member that we should not imitate the West blindly. That is why we are not following entirely what is being practised in the West. That is why we have our DFDs going through the courses conducted by NPB. 4.15 p.m.”
“With due respect to the Member for Ayer Rajah, though I am not a medical practitioner, I am advised by competent medical practitioners, inside and outside my Ministry, who have gone through all this training and who have travelled round the world to examine the various sytems that are in operation in these countries. If the Member has any suggestion on how this could be further improved, I will be very happy to receive them. But from what he has said, I think he is not against SME in principle. He is not against DFD. He is only concerned about the way it is being done. But as I have mentioned earlier, it is a question of implementation, the practical aspect of this whole exercise. Much as we would like to have very qualified DFDs to do the work to safeguard the health and safety of our workers, we do not have these doctors now. This is the first step, as I have mentioned, to provide them with the basic knowledge. We are not turning them into specialists but we will improve as we go along.”
“Because it is a full-time course and since there is no requirement to conduct SME, no one goes to this course. Much as we would like our DFD course to be as intensive as the M.Sc. course or even those courses conducted in overseas couritries, we realize that our factory doctors have a full-time practice to operate. An intensive full-time course would adversely affect their practice. We have therefore asked the NPB to conduct a part-time course to minimize disruption to their practice. Even so, doctors are expected to make some personal sacrifices having to attend these courses. The course does not aim to produce occupational health "specialists" but to provide factory doctors with the basic knowledge and skills to carry out their role as DFDs. Higher standards may be necessary later on after review and we may consider upgrading the course in future when needed. To ensure that the DFD course meet with professional requirements, a governing Board has been formed to oversee the running of the course, the curriculum and the examination. The members on the governing Board include representatives from the Ministries of Labour and Health, NPB, Academy of Medicine, National University of Singapore (School of Postgraduate Medical Studies) and the Asso- ciation of Private Medical Practitioners and the private sector. The NPB will conduct the course for as long as there are doctors who wish to be trained. Legislation will be promulgated for the registration of doctors only when sufficient doctors have been trained. With the introduction of SMEs for additional occupational diseases and the training of DFDs, the health of our workers will be further protected and improved.”
“In several industrialized countries, it has also been recognized that the undergraduate medical curriculum is inadequate for occupational health. Postgraduate courses on occupational medicine are conducted in, for example, the UK, USA, Sweden and other industrial countries. In the UK, there is a three-month full-time course leading to a Diploma in Indus- trial Health (DIH). This course caters for practising industrial doctors. In Sweden, the National Board of Occupational Health also runs training courses for doctors. Work-place occupational health clinics in Sweden are run jointly by the employers' organization and the trade union. In practice, they would not engage any doctor without the necessary training. Some countries have enacted legislation specifying that doctors who look after workers and conduct periodic medical examinations on them must have appropriate training in occupational medicine, e.g. in Finland and West Germany. In West Germany, factory doctors must undergo at least a four weeks' course of training. Presently, the authority in West Germany is considering imposing a miniMLIM of one year's specialized training in occupational health instead of a 4-week training course. I share the concern of the Member for Chong Boon and the Member for Kebun Baru that for the sake of our workers' health our DFDs must be properly trained. There is, as mentioned by the Member for Kebun Baru, a one-year postgraduate course conducted by the National University of Singapore, leading to a degree of M.Sc. in occupational medicine which our doctors could attend. But few doctors have been able to do so because it is a full-time course. In fact, from what I was told, no doctors in private practice have gone through this course.”
“Before he does this, however, he may have to visit the factory or work place to see for himself the environmental factors which the worker is subjected to. In this way the DFD would be able to link the occupational disease to the work environment and suggest possible changes to remove the hazards. For example, he would advise on the proper type of protective equipment to be used or propose adequate washing facilities to reduce the worker's exposure to certain hazards. He may also advise the factory occupier or employer to call in experts to assess the fumes or dust level that may seem excessive or to redesign the work stations. The DFD may also be given statutory powers to advise the employer to transfer a worker with abnormality to another section while further investigations are being carried out. In some cases, the DFD may even advise the employer that the worker be given a permanent change of job. The detection of workers with abnormal health conditions would also draw attention to specific work places where control measures should be intensified to prevent other workers from being affected. The function of the DFD is therefore not simply to do a clinical examination on workers. I wish to reiterate that the objective of the whole proposed system is the prevention of occupational diseases which entails visits to the work place of workers so that correct advice may be given to both employers and workers. The undergraduate medical training does not adequately cover this aspect as the curriculum provides doctors with a broad knowledge of many medical disciplines. Additional training would therefore be necessary for special areas like Occupational Health. The Member for Chong Boon and the Member for Kebun Baru asked about overseas examples.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, I thank the Members for their contribution on this subject of statutory medical examination and designated factory doctors. I admit that I am not a doctor and I will try and do my best to explain. My Ministry has announced that it intends to introduce legislation to require workers in certain specified hazardous occupations to undergo periodic medical examinations to be paid for by their employers. These examinations are to be carried out by doctors who have some training in occupational medicine and who are registered with the Ministry as designated factory doctors. To enable doctors to acquire the necessary knowledge and expertise to carry out the statutory medical examination (SME), the National Productivity Board is organizing a part-time course to provide doctors with the basic knowledge of occupational diseases and their prevention. Some doctors, whilst supporting the introduction of SME, are of the view that any medical doctor is able to carry out clinical examinations without the need for any further training. This opinion may have arisen out of some misunderstanding on the part of the Singapore Medical Association. 4.00 p.m. The SME is more than just a clinical examination. The basic objective of the SME is not only the early detection of specific occupational diseases, but also their prevention. To conduct an SME, the Designated Factory Doctor (DFD) has to consider not only the occupational history, but also the medical history. Besides doing a clinical examination, he has to arrange for special laboratory tests and he also needs to know the interpretation of the results from these tests. Where abnormality is detected in the examination, the DFD has to advise the employer and the worker concerned.”
“Sir, that is not entirely correct because if the building is still under a maintenance contract with the contractor, then the contractor would be liable.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Anson has asked whether anyone has been prosecuted under the Penal Code for gross negligence for causing the death of workers. The answer is yes. The Ministry has caused persons to be prosecuted under the Penal Code. But I am not in a position at this stage to tell how many, when, and so on. If the Member would send in a question, I would be happy to give him the information. Cases of construction workers who fell to their death from heights are not uncommon. The case that the Member cited happened about one or two years ago. I cannot recall offhand what the outcome of that particular case is. But in practice, the problem or the difficulty is always in attributing blame, that is, who is responsible for the accident. Was it the contractor who fixed the hook, the engineer who designed it or the owner who maintains the building. And if it is the owner, who would be liable - the management, the caretaker, the property manager or the Chairman of the Board? These are some of the practical problems. I thought I should just mention this. I cannot tell him offhand the details of the case.”
“Where the offence discloses gross negligence, the Ministry will cause the offender to be prosecuted for criminal negligence under the Penal Code. 3.30 p.m. But inspections and enforcement are only one way to prevent accidents. We can build up an army of inspectors but inspectors alone will not solve all the problems. A more lasting solution lies in employers and employees changing their attitude towards safety and practise self-regulation. In this respect, safety must be worked into the system of work. For example, in the construction industry, a safer system of work is to use metal scaffoldings instead of wooden scaffoldings. As a matter of fact, with more effective and efficient way of enforcement carried out by my Ministry, there has been a substantial drop in the number of accidents in the shipbuilding and ship-repairing industry and industrial accidents generally. The number of industrial accidents was reduced by 2.6%, from 6,046 in 1981 to 5,891 in 1982. Although the number of fatal accidents has increased from 60 cases in 1981 to 75 cases in 1982, which resulted in 80 deaths, it cannot be regarded as a worsening of the situation if we take into account the increase in the construction volume in 1982. I can assure Members in the House that the safety and health of workers is top priority in the minds of my officials in the Ministry. We will spare no effort to bring the industrial accident figures down wherever we can, but we need the full cooperation of employers and workers to achieve this objective.”
“It may even cover your Speaker's Chamber, Sir. You may be required to register your Speaker's Chamber, Sir. Nevertheless, I will ask my officers to study the British legislation to see whether we could adopt it for Singapore. The Member for Anson was questioning the industrial accident figures. I agree with him that the two most accident-prone industries are the shipbuilding and ship-repairing industry and the construction industry. But it is not true to say that the industrial accident rate in Singapore is high. The figures that have been compiled by my Ministry show that the occupational injuries caused by industrial accidents in Singapore, for example, in 1981 was 22,041 with a total working population of 1,112,800. This works out to about 19.8 injuries per thousand workers compared to 56.4 in the US or even 84 injuries per thousand workers in West Germany. I think our figure is not really that high. But, of course, I have to be honest and caution Members in this House that it is sometimes dangerous to depend on figures like this without examining the definition of the statistics. Also, there could be under-reporting in our situation here. But compared to Hong Kong, our figure of 19.8 as against Hong Kong's 33.6 injuries per thousand working population is not that high. Every effort is made to reduce industrial accidents in Singapore. But it is not possible to say that all the faults of accidents are due to employers. They are due to both the employers and employees, My Ministry enforces the law fairly against anyone who violates the law, regardless of whether he is the employer or the employee. The Ministry will prosecute anyone who commits a serious offence.”
“Sir, first of all, let me answer the points raised by the Member for Thomson. The purpose of the Factories Act is to safeguard the safety, health and welfare of the persons employed in work places which fall under the meaning of "factories" in the Factories Act. The Act already covers most, if not, all hazardous work places because such work places usually fall within the meaning of factories under the Act. The Act, however, does not extend to non-industrial work places, such as banks and offices where the safety and health hazards are minimal. I myself had a good look at a dental workshop recently and I must say that the work processes and machinery used are no less hazardous than those used in many manufacturing establishments, such as factories producing garments and factories producing electronic goods. There is therefore a strong case for the requirements of the Factories Act to apply to such workshops if workers are employed so that the safety and health of the workers can be protected. In dental workshops where the dentist himself fabricates or repairs dentures without employees, he need not be registered under the Factories Act. Also, the registration under the Factories Act is only confined to the dental workshop and not the entire dental surgery. Dental surgery which does not operate a dental workshop need not be registered at all. I have not seen the British Health and Safety at Work Act, Sir. The title implies that the Act has a very wide coverage. I suspect that the scope covers self-employed people and even those working in so-called white-collar jobs. Its coverage may be too extensive for our purpose. It may even cover this Chamber, Sir, including the press gallery upstairs where you see the reporters are busy at work.”
“Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of Supply has made further progress on the Main and Development Estimates for the financial year 1st April, 1983 to 31st March, 1984, and ask leave to sit again tomorrow.”
“Yes, safety inspections. I have explained to Members that it is not feasible and practical to go to every establishment or company in Singapore and ask to examine the terms and conditions. I do not know whether the Member for Anson would like the Factory Inspector to visit his office and check all these matters.”
“Sir, my Minister of State has already answered that question in his reply to the other Members. The labour inspectors do conduct routine and surprise inspections.”
“The Member for Anson will perhaps agree that it is not practical or feasible for the labour inspectors to go to every firm and establishment to check the terms and conditions of employment. But they do act on complaints when received. They do investigate into cases where employers do not give workers their annual leave and sick leave and other benefits that they are entitled to under the Employment Act. This is being done all the time. If there are complaints, inspectors will interview the employees and employers and, where necessary, will require employers to provide those statutory benefits that the employees are entitled to. I think the Member for Anson is referring to this. This is being done.”
“Sir, perhaps I may interject here. What the Member for Anson is questioning is how do the labour inspectors carry out this work to ensure that employers comply with statutory rules governing terms and conditions of employment.”
“Sir, I thought since the Member for Toa Payoh is with the NTUC, perhaps he would like to raise it with the NTUC and see what the NTUC can do to help these workers. [Mr Deputy Speaker in the Chair] 7.07 p.m.”
“Sir, the Skills Development Fund does not come under my portfolio. Perhaps the Member would like to raise this matter with the Minister for Finance. If a worker is retrenched, there is nothing to prevent him from continuing to attend the BEST programme through the NTUC.”
“The Member also suggested that grants be made by the Skills Development Fund to retrenched workers to upgrade their skills. I think this has already been covered in the BEST programme. Companies were encouraged through the NTUC to organize courses for their workers during this dull or down-period to provide them with the necessary knowledge in language and in mathematics so that they will be prepared to learn a skill.”
“But with the system now operating by the HDB, we hope that we will be able to attract workers to be employed directly by the contractors and remain there to learn the skill. It is not only that they will be able to retain the skill but also to promote company loyalty. 7.00 p.m. The Member for Whampoa also wanted to know whether the CPF has made any projections. Yes, projections have been made. I do not have the figures here. If he would ask a Question for Written Answer, I will be happy to provide him with the details. This is one of the main concerns of the Government, to ensure that workers have sufficient savings for their old age and also that they have sufficient savings to purchase or own HDB flats. This is one of the reasons why the CPF contribution rate has been raised over the years to 45% to date. The Member for Toa Payoh raised the issue on retrenched workers given shock notice. I agree with him that there is a need to inculcate employers on company loyalty. In fact, the campaign to inculcate employers on the need to promote company loyalty has been going on for the last two years and has achieved some success. However, I do tend to agree with the Member for Kebun Baru who spoke earlier that not all employers are angels and not all managements are enlightened. We hope that they would be more enlightened in the near future. But some success has been achieved in this regard because despite recessions in 1982 and 1983 so far, the retrenchment figure has not been too alarming. On the contrary, the lay-offs of workers has increased. That means companies lay-off their workers instead of retrenching them hoping to keep them until business is good or until there is an upturn in the economy.”
“Sir, the NTS workers and also the traditional source workers have been allowed to come to Singapore with work permits to take on jobs that Singaporeans shun, especially in the construction industry. Not all of them remain, as we all know. But some do remain. Of course, there are quite a number of them who have learned the skill and returned to their country. That, of course, is a loss to Singapore because they have learned the skill and they have left us. But many do not or did not stay long. They worked here for a few months and return. They are no loss to us. If the skilled workers, either traditional or non-traditional, after having worked here for some years, have upgraded themselves and even acquired a higher skill and wish to remain in Singapore as permanent residents or eventually citizens, we will encourage that. Of course, they will have to learn the necessary skill, take a trade test with the VITB and if they are required in industries with a particular shortage of this type of skilled workers, we will welcome them. But in the construction industry, I think this deals mainly with the HDB. The HDB has a system of core contractors who are given long-term contracts to encourage them to employ workers directly, instead of depending on sub-contractors and the kepala system. The problem of the construction industry is that no contractor will guarantee a long-term contract from one contract to the next, following one after another. Sometimes they get three or four contracts together, and sometimes they have a lull period with no contracts at all. That system does not encourage them to employ permanent workers. If they are not encouraged to employ permanent workers, then there is no reason why they should put in money to train them.”
“But this should only be up to 5% of the total workforce of the particular establishment, in any case not more than 50, provided they can prove to the Ministry of Labour that they have already taken definite measures to upgrade and mechanize their operations and so on, so that eventually they can carry on with their operations without NTS workers. In fact, the extension of NTS workers for another one or two years also serves as an incentive for the industry to mechanize and automate. Regarding the question of NTS workers, how stable or unstable they are, the stability of the supply and the stability of their stay in Singapore - Dr Augustine Tan: On a point of clarification, Sir. It is not only the NTS workers but also the other work permit holders that I was more concerned with.”
“The Ministry is aware that there could be an increase in disputes between unions and management arising out of direct wage negotiations and we have already taken the necessary steps to prepare ourselves, together with the Industrial Arbitration Court, for a situation like this. But we do not expect the trade disputes to increase by a large number. The Member for Leng Kee, the Member for Whampoa, and the Member for Chong Boon, touched on the problems of non-traditional source (NTS) workers. I would like to assure the Member for Leng Kee that there is no question of Government reversing the policy of phasing out the NTS workers. The decision has been made and they will be phased out as and when their work permits expire. It is not necessary for me to go through all the social problems that are likely to be created by the NTS workers if they come in in large numbers and if they are allowed to remain in Singapore for a long period of time. But, as has been expressed by the Member for Chong Boon, some industries felt that the sudden change or the sudden announcement of the phasing out of the NTS workers took them by surprise and had created or would create some problems in their operations. The Ministry, after consultation with the various bodies, decided to help these industries in the transition period and would allow 5% of the NTS workers to remain for another one or two years, or to extend the work permits of NTS workers for another one or two years.”
“The employers will not feel happy if they agree to a quantum which turns out to be higher than that eventually recommended by the NWC. The foreign-owned companies will be hard put or will be put in an awkward position to justify to their headquarters overseas why they had granted higher increases. On the other hand, the unions fear that if they were to agree on a quantum which is lower than that eventually recommended by the NWC, they will be criticized by their members. This is the first of the new-style NWC. We should perhaps not expect too much change from the old-style NWC. It is not intended to have an abrupt change anyway. The Member for Clementi is quite concerned whether or not it is timely to expect employers to negotiate directly with the workers. But the recession in recent years, last year and this year, has eased the labour market and the economic performance of many companies has been at the lowest for many years. Against such a setting, the workers and employers over these few years have become more-aware than at any time before that their mutual fortunes are closely linked. We think that the employers and employees will now negotiate wage increases directly more seriously and they are expected to interact more closely and adopt a hard-headed approach to ensure mutual benefit. The Member for Geylang Serai has expressed his concern that the sudden change to the new-style NWC may create a sudden increase in disputes in wage negotiations, and he questioned whether the Ministry of Labour has the necessary resources to handle these disputes. As I have mentioned earlier, the change will not be too sudden.”
“These guidelines will serve as a basis for collective bargaining at the company level between the employer and the industrial or enterprise union. At the same time, some employers and unions will be encouraged to undertake sectoral bargaining outside the NWC and before the NWC announces its guidelines. Some of the suitable sectors considered were the banking, electronics, ship-building, ship-repairing and petrol industries. These export-oriented industries and banks have to compete internationally. Therefore, they cannot give wage increases which price themselves out of the international market. The guidelines arrived at by the sectoral bargaining would serve as signals of market trends to the NWC. The new-style NWC also allows greater flexibility in collective wage bargaining through the introduction of separate guidelines for different sectors of the economy, taking into account differences in skill and economic performances of each industry. This is a more realistic approach. Direct wage negotiations facilitate the mobilization of our scarce labour resources for the growth industry which offers higher wages. Under the new-style NWC, the employers and workers would interact and consult with each other more closely and frequently. Both parties would then be better able to appreciate each other's problems and well-being. In the process, management would be able to instil a sense of company loyalty in the workers and to relate wage increases to productivity. However, the progress of the new-style NWC so far has not been encouraging. Both employers and trade unions are reluctant to settle wage increases before the NWC. This is quite understandable.”
“Sir, the National Wages Council was started in 1972. At that time there was a rapid rate of economic growth with full employment. The wage structure was disorderly with wage disparity between large and small firms. Amongst skilled, semi-skilled and unskilled workers, there were disparities in their wages and with many different incentive payments. It was felt that future wage patterns were unclear and this would deter investors. The NWC was set up to develop a rational and coherent wage system geared towards long-term economic growth and higher productivity. It regulated wage structure and not merely wage increases. The NWC has operated for 10 years. Certain disadvantages have surfaced. Gradually employers and employees have assumed NWC guidelines to be mandatory. This has resulted in workers regarding the Government as the benefactor of their wage increase instead of their employers who are really paying for their benefits. This misconception must be cor- rected if we were to succeed in promoting the workers' loyalty to their company. The new-style NWC is intended to get employers and trade unions to enter into direct wage negotiations with each other. Initially, the Government will continue as a member of the tripartite council but will adopt a low profile and leave it to the employers and trade unions to negotiate directly for broad guidelines on wage increase. The Government will, however, play an advisory role and assist in NWC discussions by providing the necessary data on economic performance, investments in the pipeline, competitive positions of local industries, etc. 6.45 p.m. Eventually over the years, the NWC will comprise only the trade union and employer organizations working out broad guidelines together.”
“He mentioned about the differences between the market price and HDB's posted price. Perhaps I would just explain a little bit on this subject because HDB flats are quite different from private flats in the open market. The CPF, in determining the amount of CPF savings to be taken out by any member for the purchase of properties, whether private properties or HDB flats, takes into account the security of the property, that is, what the properties can fetch in the market should the property be resold. In the case of a resale of an HDB flat, the HDB's controlled posted price is in a way a valuation of the flat as assessed by HDB. Such a resale flat is subject to numerous terms and conditions which make the flat not freely marketable. One of these conditions is that should a new purchaser sell his flat within five years of purchase, then he would be required to sell it back to HDB at the HDB's controlled posted price, not the market price. Therefore, the Board allows CPF members to withdraw only up to 80% of the controlled posted price of resale HDB flats. Of course, this ruling does cause some hardship to some members who are genuinely interested in buying resale flats. I myself have a number of constituents facing the same problem. CPF is aware of this problem and is intending - I am not sure they have already intended - to initiate discussion with the HDB to discuss further ways to assist the purchaser of resale HDB flats, and perhaps hopefully in the near future we will be able to let the Member know whether the withdrawal of up to 80% of the controlled posted price will be varied. The Member for Leng Kee, the Member for Clementi and the Member for Geylang Serai touched on the new-style NWC and have expressed their concern.”
“Sir, before I ask my Minister of State to deal with the subject of the company welfare scheme raised by the Member for Moulmein, I will deal with the other subjects first. The Member for Kebun Baru has again raised this issue about allowing CPF savings to be used for the education of members themselves and their children. He asked whether the CPF Board has considered this suggestion. I only wish to tell him that the CPF Board is considering his suggestion. This is being publicly discussed on a number of occasions. There is no basic objection to allowing members to withdraw their CPF savings for their personal education and for upgrading themselves in skills and so on. The only question is how do we ensure that they will make full use of the savings to really upgrade themselves and to treat this seriously. We would like to believe that they will, and if we can work out a scheme or if we can be assured that this will be the case, i.e. they will really benefit from the education and upgrade themselves in skills and subsequently benefit them financially, then there is no basic objection. This is being looked into. In the other case, that is, to allow the member to withdraw his savings for his children's education, that would be a bit more complicated because there is the question of setting up the criteria. Where do you draw the line? How do you approve the scheme to enable his children to withdraw his savings for further education? Will he make the grade and will he look after the parents after he has made the grade? Anyway, these issues, as I said, are being looked into by the CPF Board. I think this is not the first time that the Member has made the suggestion in the House to vary the CPF rules to help members to purchase HDB flats.”
“As I have mentioned, Sir, it is unlikely that a company which is on the verge of folding up will engage or recruit a large number of workers. In most cases, as I have said, in a normal situation where the company has to fold up, they do pay retrenchment benefits to the workers who have not worked the full three-year period.”
“Sir, I am fully aware of that. The question of job-hopping arises only when an employee or a worker hops from job to job simply because of an offer of a higher salary regardless of whether or not the company is in a financially stable situation. Of course, if this is his first job and he is retrenched as a result of the world recession, or as a result of poor business, then, of course, he will suffer in this case because he has worked for less than three years. As I have said, from the records, most of the companies do pay their employees retrenchment benefits although they do not work the full three-year period except those who were with the company for less than a year or two. But in practice there are very few companies employing a large number of workers just before the companies close shop.”
“It is very difficult to draw a line which can satisfy everybody, whether it should be two years, one year or even six months. So far, the Ministry is satisfied with these provisions in the legislation, and we do not see at this stage the need to amend these particular provisions. We would not want to amend them in such a way that would encourage the workers to job-hop, working for one or two years in an establishment and then hop to another establishment under the belief that they will be entitled to retrenchment benefits.”
“We must not forget that the formation of house unions is not just to build up capable leadership in these unions but rather ultimately to improve the lot of workers. Instead of management assuming a leadership role in unions, the interactions and harmony between management and workers can also be effected by the unions and management taking part in joint labour/management committees. This would allow the management to play an active role in promoting workers' welfare and good labour relations without a conflict of interest. I am fully aware of some of the problems raised by the Member for West Coast regarding the CPF contributions made by employees, but to raise the $200 floor salary to $400 a month is something that needs to be carefully studied. The Ministry has already requested the CPF Board to look into this proposal since this matter was raised sometime last year. Unfortunately, they have not come up with a decision at this stage. I would urge the Member for West Coast to be patient for a little bit longer. In so far as the other issues raised by him last year on the sick leave benefits and annual leave entitlement to employees are concerned, these are being taken into account in our review of the Employment Act which will be submitted to this House for consideration in the near future. It is perhaps premature at this stage for me to go into the details. Regarding his point on retrenchment benefits where workers are only entitled to them after they have worked in the company for at least three years, this is the minimum requirement as provided for in the Employment Act. We know that many employers do pay retrenchment benefits to workers who work less than three years.”
“Sir, let me take the points mentioned by the Member for Boon Lay that supervisors, foremen and engineers in a company should be allowed to join unions in order that there can be good leadership in the union and the union will then thrive better. Sir, management in companies have to assess workers. They also need to represent the shareholders' interest in any negotiations with the employees. In some cases, the supervisors, line engineers and even foremen, do perform the functions of management. In so far as the Employment Act and the Trade Unions Act are concerned, on the question whether supervisors and foremen are allowed to join unions or not, the Acts are silent. There is nothing to prevent the foremen and supervisors from joining a union. But, as I have said, it depends on the functions of this class of workers. If they do perform management functions, then I can understand the objections of the management to allow this class of workers to join a union. There will be a conflict of interest if the staff performing management functions were allowed to join the same union as their bargainable employees. The success of a union does not have to depend upon the participation of the management staff. There already exist house unions in Singapore which are functioning very well without participation by the management staff. The strength of a house union or any union does not depend upon the qualifications or status of its leadership. Rather it depends more upon an enlightened leadership which has a full grasp of management objectives and problems and leads workers to cooperate with the management for their own long-term welfare.”
“Sir, he is told that he has a right to appeal to the Minister.”
“In what way? He can write to me personally.”
“Sir, when an appeal is made to the Minister, the files from the Registrar of Vehicles will be called up to the Ministry and the case will be first handled by the Deputy Secretary in the Ministry. He goes through the report and, if necessary, he-will ask that the appellant be invited for a further interview. If the officer is satisfied that all the necessary evidence has been recorded, it will be forwarded to the Permanent Secretary and the Minister for a final decision.”
“The finance company will repossess the taxi. It does not make sense. As I said, the taxi licence is a permit to operate a taxi. It is not a personal property and it cannot be transferred at will. Any person who wishes to own a taxi now will have to go through balloting conducted by NTUC Comfort. As I mentioned to him, we are considering other measures to help deserving taxi drivers who have good track record, who have clean and blameless records for the last five, ten years or so, may be considered for issue of individual taxi licences outside NTUC Comfort, but this is something that we will have to look into in detail. In as far as the tribunal is concerned, I cannot see the advantage of having a tribunal. What is the difference as against the present system now? I have explained to the Member that any complaint made against a taxi driver is carefully and thoroughly investigated by the ROV. The taxi driver concerned will be interviewed to answer the allegation. He is given all the opportunities to present his version of the fact and to rebut the allegation made by the complainant. If there is any inconsistency, discrepancy or doubt over some of the details of the case, the taxi driver is given the benefit of the doubt. Further, if the taxi driver is dissatisfied with the decision of the ROV, he can appeal to the Minister against the Registrar's decision. So what else do you want? Why must there always be a tribunal? He wants a tribunal in every appeal. The Member also wants a tribunal in cases of appeals against wrongful dismissals. I am sure he wants a lot of tribunals in many areas.”
“- that NTUC Comfort was set up in 1970 to provide easy credit to facilitate members to own their own taxis. If you get credit from a private financial company and should you default, what happens to the taxi?”
“What is wrong with getting these taxis through NTUC Comfort? I have already explained to the Member that -”
“It is not a business. This is a licence to operate, a permit to operate a taxi. Even in NTUC Comfort, the taxi owners are not allowed to transfer a taxi to anyone he likes. He has to return it to NTUC Comfort. I hope that makes it clear. I cannot see anything wrong in getting the son of this particular driver that he quoted to get a taxi or to own a taxi with the assistance of NTUC Comfort. What is wrong? Why do you want to force him to go to a private financial company?”
“Sir, I have already given Members a brief historical background leading to the present Government policy. A taxi licence is a permit to operate a taxi. It is not a personal property that you can transfer to anyone you like. I think this has to be made clear to the Member.”
“With regard to the $2 area licensing fee paid by taxi drivers, this has been established since 1976 as part of the total area licensing scheme. This has helped to minimize traffic congestion in the Central Business District area. In as far as NTUC Comfort taxis are concerned, again it is a manifestation of management control and management organization that NTUC Comfort taxis are able to operate with this $2 area licensing fee without complaint. And if the yellow-top taxis can be similarly managed with proper advice and assistance, I think they should have no problem paying the $2 area licensing fee. The Member for Kaki Bukit raised the subject of Service 228 a year ago. The position remains the same. This will form part of the total bus study that is being carried out. Hopefully, in the revised scheduling system, the problems that his con- stituents face could be remedied. One of the problems of Service 228 is that the demand at the present moment is not sufficient to justify a two-way loop. If SBS were to operate a two-way loop instead of a one-way loop as at present, then it may have to accept an eight-minute frequency instead of a four-minute frequency. At the present moment, it is four minutes for every service during the peak hours. SBS cannot justify introducing more buses to this particular service without having to suffer heavy losses in its operations. Maybe we should wait until we receive the recommendations from the Comprehensive Bus Study group. Mr Jeyaretnam rose -”
“The Registrar is empowered under section 63 (4) of the Road Traffic Act to suspend or revoke the vocational licence of taxi drivers if the drivers are found to be unfit or unable to continue driving taxis as a trade and providing the service to the satisfaction of the members of the public. It is not true to say that the ROV has been harsh in his actions against taxi drivers and is not being fair. This would imply that the system of inquiry before actions are taken has not been thorough. The ROV has all along been very fair to taxi drivers when dealing with complaints from taxi commuters. Complaints are carefully examined before a decision is made to penalize the drivers. It has always been the ROV's practice to establish the truth of the complaint before taxi drivers are even called up to answer the allegations made against them. For instance, in 1982, the ROV received a total of 1,375 complaints but decided not to take action against almost 900 taxi drivers, arising out of these complaints. Only about 300 taxi vocational licences were suspended in that year and only 18 licences were revoked out of the 1,375 complaints. So the Member cannot say that the ROV has been unfair or that it has taken these complaints lightly and acted against taxi drivers without thorough investigation. As a matter of fact, the ROV received complaints from taxi drivers against commuters. In 1982, the ROV received 67 requests from taxi drivers for assistance to recover taxi fares from taxi commuters, and managed to recover fares totalling some $400 for 42 taxi drivers. Nine passengers who refused to pay these taxi fares were taken to court and one of them was convicted and fined.”
“Since its establishment, all new taxi licences have been issued to NTUC Comfort except for 200 licences which were issued in 1978 to the Singapore Airport Bus Services Limited to operate a taxi fleet. As at 31st December 1982, 6,746 or about 63% of the taxis in Singapore were under the Comfort flag. NTUC Comfort has indicated that it may not wish to expand its current fleet size beyond 7,000 taxis. My Ministry and NTUC Comfort have been in consultation and discussion to consider the possibility or desirability of allowing the transfer of taxi licences or issuing new taxi licences to individuals who have been driving taxis for a number of years and who have good track records. This subject is being discussed and under consideration. We hope a decision would be made. But the important thing is this. As I mentioned earlier, we have to ensure that those who are issued with a taxi licence will help to run a good, clean and efficient taxi service. With a company, such as the SBS, SABS or with NTUC Comfort, there is management control to help discipline taxi drivers and taxi owners, to see that they operate the taxi service to serve members of the public. I do not think it is a matter of right that a taxi licence should be transferred to the son or to the uncle simply because he owns one. We have an obligation to the members of the public to ensure that they are transferred to the right people so that they can continue to provide a good service. On the question of the power of the ROV to revoke or suspend vocational licences of taxi drivers, Sir, we have gone through this in detail last year, and I do not intend to go through it again. I think it is a sheer waste of time.”