Yeo Guat Kwang
Singapore
“Madam, a supplementary question. Many are concerned that with the rising manpower cost and manpower shortage, whether the standard of cleanliness and the hygiene level in the hawker centres will also be affected.”
“The Government should consider implementing new disposal standards like Taiwan and the cities in China, as well as roll out assistance schemes similar to the Innovation and Capability Voucher (ICV), to encourage the local F&B industry to bring in new technology and provide businesses with grants to purchase kitchen waste disposal machiner…”
“Madam, the Minister of State mentioned that instead of having a one-stop, he is suggesting to provide a better first-stop. So, I hope the Minister of State can elaborate further on how this first-stop can really help.”
“Mdm Speaker, I would like to seek a few clarifications from the Minister. The Minister mentioned that the Bill targets those dormitories that are housing 1,000 workers and above. But this Bill's name is "Foreign Employee Dormitories Bill". Why do we not call the Bill the "Purpose-Built Dormitory Bill"? That is, we call a spade a spade.”
“I would like to ask the Ministry: why does it not just group all these regulations together under this Bill and apply it to all? Madam, as the legislation is allowed time to take effect, I would also want to urge the Government to continue close consultation and engagement with the operators and migrant worker residents especially, as wel…”
“This is a Bill that touches everyone in one way or another: some of us are pet owners, others are potential pet buyers, business owners, and some of us may be neighbours to pet owners.”
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“Mr Speaker, Sir, I welcome and support the proposed amendments to the Workmen's Compensation Act. For years, the labour movement has been pushing for changes to the Workmen's Compensation Act to better safeguard the interests of the employees injured at work. It is heartening to note that the coverage will be extended to all employees in general, regardless of salary level and job nature. As the proposed change to the name suggests, it is no longer necessary to differentiate between manual and non-manual workers under the Act. This points to the effect that, with technology advancement and changing job scopes, the risks faced by manual or some non-manual workers in the workplace are actually similar. Since the last revision to the WCA in 1995, the median wage of the resident employees has increased significantly. It is indeed timely to raise the compensation levels to keep pace with the increase in wages. Besides enhancing the maximum and minimum compensation limits for all age groups, it is noted that the compensation for employees aged 40 and below and those holding multiple jobs will be adjusted. This enhancement will better reflect the true earning potential and thus providing workers injured with fairer compensation. Sir, from time to time, the union leaders have given feedback that there were instances where injured workers in hardship had approached them for assistance. These workers have not received their wages while on medical leave and were unable to pay for their medical expenses, owing to the ambiguities in the current Act. There were different practices on the ground among the employers with regard to the payment of medical leave, wages and medical expenses. Many employers will wait for the reimbursement from the insurer before paying their workers.”
“Sir, I would like to clarify with the Minister. I think the HDB will definitely have the number of newly-weds who are actually waiting for their flats. By meeting their demand, I do not see how the HDB will over build and end up with a demand/supply problem.”
“EXEMPTED BUSINESS (Motion) Resolved, That the proceedings on the business set down on the Order Paper for today be exempted at this day's sitting from the provisions of Standing Order No. 2. - [Mr Mah Bow Tan]. CPF REFORMS AND OTHER MEASURES FOR A SECURE RETIREMENT Debate resumed. 6.15 pm”
“But we do not know exactly how many healthy old people are there in the society. Which income group do they belong to? If we have a full grasp of these details, we will know how to look after the middle, lower-income group, provide adequate measures so that they will have a healthy life and live longer because if they are not healthy, then a long life is meaningless. So this is what we need to pay attention to. Lastly, I would like to point out a few things that we want and things that we do not want when we get old. After I have spoken to some of the grassroots people, I have a better understanding of their sentiments. What are they worried about? They are afraid that when they are old, they will get worried, they are downhearted. They lose heart and when they are old, they do not have a healthy body and mind. So this is what everybody is worried about. What do we hope to have? We hope to be worry-free, to be relaxed, to be happy and joyful, to be old but have a young heart, and the older we get, the younger our outlook. So we must have a multi-channel approach. What I am proud of is that we are really an action party for the people - we act for the people. And we are seriously looking into solving this difficult problem. Thirty years later, all of us who are here in Parliament today, we do not need to be worried about this problem. But today, we bring it upon our shoulders to solve the problem. This is an important point, so I hope that all of us will no longer need to worry about depending on others, or ourselves, because the Government will not run away. Let us work together and make all the best arrangements for our old age.”
“If we do not even save, then there is no point in discussing about having enough savings. Like what some Members have said about the re-employment of older workers, it is a very important point. In today's newspapers, it is reported that we have 400-plus companies which have started to recruit older workers. So I hope all the employers will not wait any further. They should not just sit there and wait. They should start work now. I am glad to note that Minister Teo, in his answer to a question, said that the public sector will take the lead and start an example by employing older workers. This is most important. As Minister Ng said earlier, if you are good and old, then you are gold. It means that you must be good when old, and then you are a treasure. If your health is no good, then it is terrible. A very important point is that we must strengthen our efforts to help the older workers to maintain and improve their health. So I hope every employer will respond to NTUC's "Your Health Programme" to improve the health of our workers because there is a Hokkien saying, "You cannot lose out when you are old." What it means is that, "Well, if you do badly, never mind. Well, it is all right if you die, but your face and reputation are important and, most importantly, when you are old, you should not be weak and lose out." That is the most important thing. So our old people are not weak and useless people but they are a productive workforce. In Zaobao yesterday, it was said that Singaporeans lead a hectic life, as they face a longer life expectancy and they pay greater attention to their health condition. The Government tells us that we are facing a longer life expectancy, and thus the need to defer our retirement.”
“I think it is very important. Many colleagues say, "Why do I worry about what is going to happen when I am 85. Why not worry about 70 or 75? Can I really live till 80 plus?" So this is an important point. In our dialogue with union leaders, we realised that many people are worried about this. There is another saying that a doctor cannot heal himself. We are afraid that insurance cannot really insure us. Even the insurance company may collapse. So we all hope that if we have this longevity insurance, the basic package must be maintained by the CPF Board. We can allow certain ancillary packages to the insurance companies, but we cannot transfer the basic protection package to the private companies. We must allow CPF to continue managing this basic package. Of course, many people are worried about how they are going to encourage Singaporeans to accept this scheme. They are also concerned about the group of housewives and what they are going to do. We have received suggestions where the Government can provide matching top-ups for husbands who top up for their wives, so that we can encourage more top-ups for the wives. For those who top up and purchase annuity for their wives, give them additional tax concessions. All these are things which we should consider. For taxi drivers, they are now required to contribute to Medisave, but their Special Accounts do not have much balance left. So we would like to know whether the taxi companies can look into this area and allow better arrangements for the taxi drivers. People are concerned whether their present CPF is enough or not. Whether we have enough savings is a problem but if we do not save, that is the basic issue. If we do not have the ability to save, that is the basic problem.”
“" So the Government must ensure that those who do not have sufficient savings, we should look after them and think of a better solution to help them, especially the self-employed, contract workers and the low-income workers. We cannot allow them to be worried that they do not know what to do. They will say, "What to do when I am old, I can only cry." Sir, the changes in the CPF scheme are good. It provides D-Bonus and V-Bonus and encourages them to defer their withdrawals. This progressive package will cost the Government $1.2 billion every year. So this is a very important step. In his National Day Rally speech, the Prime Minister said that there are so many old people around us. Many Singaporeans, after listening to PM's speech, wonder whether we really have so many old people. Now, they know that it is really so. Not only that, there is a Hokkien song - I cannot sing this Hokkien song - but I can read out the words. This is a song about not growing old, or do not feel that you are old. The lyrics go like this. Some people say that 90 is old, 80 is uncommon, and 70 is common. What is 60? 50 is so common. It means that if you look around, there are a lot of people who are 90 years old, so 80 is not uncommon. Life begins at 70. What is 60? At 50 years old, you can be a young man. At 40, you are a lovely lad running around. So the message is that old age is inevitable but we can face it. That is the best way to do so. Of course, there are many people who worry about annuity insurance. What is it all about? So I hope that the committee will explain it better to the people, because many people do not understand this insurance. Why do I have to put the money there, and only after 30 years we withdraw this money? So how do we effectively explain this point?”
“[For vernacular speech, please refer to Appendix A *.] Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, during his National Day Rally speech, the Prime Minister has raised the phenomena of an ageing population, and many Singaporeans are aware of the daunting challenge that we face. When we are walking on the streets, we hear people asking, "What are we going to do when we get old?" Someone answered in Hokkien saying, "You can cry." Of course, crying will not be able to help one solve the problem but, most importantly, we must all work together for a solution. Many Singaporeans, after listening to PM's speech, begin to get worried, because there is an old Chinese saying that goes like this, "靠树树倒，靠人人跑，靠自己最好", meaning it is best to depend on oneself. So the Government seems to be telling us that self-reliance is the best. So you must lock up your CPF savings. That is the best. *Cols. 1667-1672. We know the Government's measure. Every year, the Government is going to set aside $700 million to finance the CPF changes in interest rate and it will reduce the people's burden in buying the longevity insurance in future. The Government is not saying that the people must only depend on themselves and that the Government will not care. Some people are worried and they are thinking, "If you want me to plan for myself after 80 years old, I will have to know first what is going to happen to me when I am 60 years old. If I cannot even look after myself now, how am I going to worry about living beyond 80 years old?”
“It is also important for the Ministry to reach out to and generate awareness among the SMEs so that they would understand their legal obligations. Sir, at the end of the day, revised legislation and regulations are just means to an end. More responsible employers and caring workplaces will remain as the key to safeguard the welfare of our workers, regardless of nationality and background. Sir, I support the Bill.”
“But I wonder why MOM did not impose mandatory sentence on those who give, sell or forge work passes. I think MOM should. Sir, the situation of migrant workers in Singapore, primarily a host or receiving country of migrants, is generally good and we should continue to make Singapore the choice destination for migrant workers from the region. But, at the same time, I hope that MOM would also regularly review and strengthen the legislative protection for our local workers. We should not allow any disparity in the treatment of locals and migrant workers, and being perceived as giving more protection to migrant workers than locals. Our world Number One workforce deserves a world-class legislative protection and work conditions. Sir, currently, the employers of work permit holders are required to ensure the well-being of all their migrant workers under the work permit conditions provided by the Employment of Foreign Workers Act (EFWA). I think MOM should also increase the penalty against employers who breach these work permit conditions. At the present moment, the penalty is a fine of up to $5,000 or a jail term of up to six months. I also hope that the list of the work permit conditions be revised regularly to enhance protection. I would also like to know whether MOM would include an amendment to safeguard workers against ill-treatment by unscrupulous employment agents, rather than just employers. Besides regularly monitoring the situation and reviewing the foreign manpower management framework and relevant legislation, I think the Ministry should also explore practical ways to reach out and generate awareness in helping migrant workers better understand and exercise their rights in Singapore.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, in Singapore, we recognise and affirm the contributions of migrant workers towards our economic development. Migrant workers, together with our local workers, have enabled our economy to sustain the growth momentum and helped us attract investments and grow industries. Take the local factories and restaurants, for example. They would not have survived without the number of foreign workers or employees who make up the shortfall in our local workforce. In turn, these workplaces continue to provide our local workers with employment opportunities. Sir, NTUC is concerned about the welfare of all workers, local or migrant. The labour movement has always recognised and accepted the need for foreign workers to supplement our limited human resources, and appreciates their contributions to Singapore's economic development. Thus, the labour movement has constantly called on the Government to strengthen efforts to stamp out the problem of unscrupulous employers who use non-documented workers and ignore the conditions imposed to safeguard workers' well-being. Illegal or non-documented migrant workers are most at risk of abuse and are without protection. To safeguard both the interests of local and foreign workers, we should not allow any foreigners to work in Singapore illegally or being illegally redeployed. While a large majority of our employers are responsible employers and treat their migrant workers well, there are some black sheep who will ill-treat their migrant workers, as seen from the isolated incidents that continue to be reported in our media. Thus, I strongly welcome the amendments. I think the mandatory one-month jail sentence for second conviction of any employer employing foreign employees without valid work passes is a strong enough signal.”
“Every centre will be given a HK$2 million subsidy to improve the quality of pre-school education and facilities. In this regard, we can learn from the experience of Hong Kong. In China, the government also issues land rights to operators for construction of childcare centres. Therefore, we can consider implementing the same measures when working on our pre-school planning since it will improve the quality of our pre-school education and give a better future to our children. Improving the quality of our people will also enhance our future so that we can create more economic miracles and improve Singapore's future prospects.”
“[For vernacular speech, please refer to Appendix A *.] "A child's life is determined at the age of three." The most important phase of intellectual development of children is from 0-6 years old. Hence, it is important that we give them a good start by placing more emphasis on pre-school education. Currently, we have about 16,000 maids in Singapore. This figure shows that we have not devoted enough attention to the pre-school education of our children. We have about 700 nurseries and childcare centres in Singapore, but about 50 to 60 of them close down every year. This is due to unattractive salary packages and career prospects for the nursery teachers; as such, they have difficulties attracting qualified people to join this industry. In view of a declining population, it is thus critical for us to invest more on our pre-school education. The Ministry of Manpower Labour Force statistics show that 44,000 people join the workforce every year. In the next 10 years, this figure will decline to 24,000 people. Our country is expected to observe a troubling shrinking labour *Cols. 3455-3456. force for many more years to come. Therefore, investments in pre-school education must be seen as an urgent and daunting task, since children are our future, and people are our only resource. The cost of employing a foreign maid is relatively lower as compared to childcare expenses. The cost of childcare services is more than $560 per month. Currently, the proportion of children in pre-school education in childcare centres is not higher than 75%. In Hong Kong, the Government has introduced several measures to encourage women to have more children, as well as to finance pre-school education centres. Kindergartens are given utility subsidies, rental reliefs, etc.”
“Efforts to help the elderly people include encouraging our elder workers to stay employed, granting them more medical benefits, setting up of more eldercare centres and old folks' homes, etc. Having said that, is it possible for MCYS to follow the example of Hong Kong? The Hong Kong government has launched a systematic eldercare scheme, whereby they provide 24-hour homecare services for the needy elderly people. This is something Singapore can learn to build a happy home for our elderly citizens.”
“[For vernacular speech, please refer to Appendix A *.] Sir, the family has always been the cornerstone of the Asian society. We face today an ageing population and thus it is important for us to fortify family cohesion. Globalisation brought a new wave of competition and challenges to our economy. Due to the lack of interaction among parents and children, family ties are much weakened. As a result, increasing numbers of the elderly are choosing suicide to extricate themselves from depression. There are more and more *Cols. 3453-3454. elderly people seeking love and concern from their families and society. According to a NUS survey carried out from 1991 to 2000 on 712 elderly suicides, it showed that those who committed suicide were aged 65 and above, the older they were, the higher the suicide rate. The Chinese elderly have the highest suicide rate, followed by Indians and Malays. Results of the survey also show that the Malay community has a higher degree of family cohesion. Even though they do not know their neighbours, they will still help one another. This is something lacking among the Chinese community. Another NUH survey shows that depression is the main cause leading to elderly suicides. The main reason being that their children are busy with work; as a result they have less time to communicate with their parents. Therefore, it is much easier for them to slide into depression. Apart from the ComCare elderly scheme, we hope to see more of such concrete and systematic approach to cope with the problems of our ageing population. To achieve this, we need to strengthen the physical and mental health of our people, family ties, as well as the society's cohesiveness.”
“Sir, I am happy that the Minister has said that they will ensure that all employers who employ foreign workers must produce proof of their accommodation. I am not sure what the details are, but it cannot be just showing proof of address because, at the end of the day, it will be like the heavy vehicle parking situation where all the car park lots are taken but the heavy vehicles are not there. On the issue of medical insurance, I think the Minister said that, for many employers, they do already have some form of hospitalisation and surgical plan that they can actually purchase or get their workers to be insured. But I am worried about those places where there are less than 50 workers, and these small and medium enterprises which employ foreign workers would not be able to get an insurer to insure them. That is not only for the foreign workers but also the local workers on contract.”
“What percentage of the workplaces have already attended the required training courses on risk assessment and how many have now instituted the risk management framework for their workplaces? Do we see significant improvements in safety standards since a new legislation has been in place? Flexible Work Arrangement”
“Mr Chairman, Sir, I would like to echo Dr Ahmad Magad's speech during the Budget debate that it is imperative not just for the Government, but all stakeholders at the workplace, particularly the employers, to put their act together to make our workplace safer for our workers. While the new Workplace Safety and Health Act currently covers only the workplaces such as factories, construction worksites and shipyards, employers of all the other workplaces should also make full efforts to ensure that good measures are in place for the safety of their workers. Could the Ministry expedite the process to make more new workplaces to be covered by the new Act? In order for the industry to have sufficient time to prepare to meet the requirements under the new Act, we should activate the tripartite network to work out more practical solutions and measures to address all the OSA risks in all the other workplaces that were not covered by the Factories Act before. For instance, the NTUC's Workplace Safety and Health Aviation Sectoral Workgroup, in consultation with the Occupation Safety and Health Division of MOM, has identified and initiated a series of OSA improvement recommendations and action plan with the support of the CAAS and the management of the relevant workplaces like SIA, SATS and CIAS, etc, to further strengthen the occupational health and safety standards for Changi Airport. I hope the Ministry of Manpower could consider providing more incentives and facilitating more of such industry-driven initiatives. I would like to also ask the Ministry for an update on the progress made so far in improving workplace safety and health performance.”
“We do understand the need to attract foreign workers and talents for stimulating and sustaining the growth of our economy. But, I would like to ask MOM what are its plans to address two basic areas of concern regarding foreign workers: firstly, their accommodation; and, secondly their medical insurance. The latter is of greater concern now since Government has announced the withdrawal of medical subsidies for foreign workers with effect from 1st October 2007. It is for this reason that we need to pay more attention to their accommodation and medical benefits. At the same time, we are facing a falling fertility rate, ie, we will face a shrinking labour force in 10 years' time. Therefore, I would like to know if MOM has a long-term plan to combat this problem in the next 10 years. And I hope that MOM can attract more Singaporeans to join the services sector, since it offers 75% of total job opportunities available in the market. I hope we do not have to resort to employing foreign workers for the services sector. * Cols. 3245-3256. Jobs for Singaporeans 5.45 pm”
“[For vernacular speech, please refer to Appendix A *. ] Mr Chairman, Sir, it is unquestionable that structural unemployment will not go away overnight. It remains a key challenge for our workers. All levels of workers, including the blue collar and white collar workers, will be adversely affected. But, most importantly, as what MP Seng Han Thong earlier said, it is important to ensure that workers have a healthy body, and they must be equipped with the necessary skills. Therefore, the various training and development programmes will continue to benefit them. However, I am more concerned with the lowly-educated workers, especially those who did not complete secondary school, who are most likely to be affected. According to survey findings, these workers undergo training for less than one day per year. Therefore, I hope that the Ministry of Manpower will step up efforts to help and protect this vulnerable group of workers, especially the contract workers. Most importantly, with the growing demands of an ageing population, we will have to improve our medical welfare system to meet their health needs. One commendable effort by the Government is the reformed MediSheld scheme, which has provided better medical coverage for our people. As Singapore's largest employer, the public service has taken the lead to ensure that all workers are at least covered under the MediShield scheme. It also encourages the workers to sign up for other policies, if they need better protection. In this regard, I would like to ask MOM if it has any plans to urge all employers to review their medical welfare schemes so as to ensure that older workers do not lose their jobs and are not discriminated because of their age or higher premiums.”
“I thank the Minister of State for the positive answer on regulating the private education organisations. But I would like to know how long it would take and whether there is a definitive timeframe to be set and, in the interim, what will MOE do?”
“Objective and credible assessments with regard to the curriculum offerings by the PEOs should be carried by the licencing authority before these PEOs are allowed to operate in Singapore. Edusave”
“Mr Chairman, Sir, I would like to echo what Dr Lily Neo has said. I think that more efforts have to be made by the Ministry to ensure that our reputation as a global school house or education hub will not be affected by the malpractices of increasing numbers of errant private education organisations. In 2005, CASE received about 800 complaints concerning PEOs. The numbers went up to 1,100 in the year 2006. Sir, the Case Trust Scheme at the moment is very basic, and the Student Protection Scheme currently in place only serves to protect the students' fees in the event a PEO closes down. The Government has to quickly come up with a measure to ensure that PEOs are able to deliver quality education. Currently, PEOs only need to apply for a licence from the Ministry of Education to operate in Singapore. To the students, they assume that the PEO granted approval to provide education services by MOE is proof of its academic credentials, and they think that MOE will be responsible for the performance of the registered PEO. Most foreign students also have the impression that the courses and education programmes conducted by the private schools are vetted and approved by the Ministry of Education since they are granted their licence by the Government to operate. Sir, to safeguard our reputation as a centre of learning, we need to address this issue and introduce measures and regulations to ensure that PEOs are able to deliver on what they promise. MOE should introduce stricter regulations on PEOs. It is the responsibility of the Government agency that grants the licences to all the PEOs to ensure good service and educational standards.”
“So, no matter how successful our efforts are in getting our older workers to be re-employed, up their skills, change their mindset, these would count for nothing if, at the end of the day, the worker is not healthy enough. I would like to urge the Ministry to allocate more resources and work more closely with the labour movement and any organisation involved to help workers regularly assess and monitor their basic health profile and better manage their health risks before it is too late. This will, in fact, help strengthen the employability of all our mature workers. I hope MOH could spend more on preventive healthcare. Mental Health Programme”
“Madam, one of my key concerns is how we are going to help Singaporeans monitor and reduce health risks. What are these risks? These are risks arising from not eating right, not exercising enough and smoking. Based on the statistics, we know that more than half of the deaths and disability from heart diseases and stroke can be cut down. All it takes is a national effort and individual action to reduce health risk factors, such as smoking, high blood pressure, high cholesterol and obesity. Let us now make a more structured approach and effort to make all Singaporeans, particularly those above 40 years old, first, to be aware of and, then, take efforts to manage their health risks. We should make basic health screening more accessible, followed by way of facilitating Singaporeans, particularly those who are working, to take personal responsibility to improve their health risk profile. In short, raise their awareness and help them create the drive to take action. 5.45 pm What are the actions that we can take? I think we can simply round it up to say, "CHEERs", ie, "C" for "Cease smoking"; "HE" for "Healthy Eating"; "ER" for "Exercise Regularly"; and make the "s" small for manage "stress". Madam, I wish to highlight that while many companies readily agree and say openly that they would like to re-employ older workers and even employ them beyond retirement age, more often than not, the health of the older workers is an important criteria in determining whether the company is going to grant him employment or not. Many companies, in fact, specify very clearly in their documents for re-employment to make it a point that the workers must, first, have to be assessed to be medically fit to work.”
“As lifelong employment is no longer prevalent in view of changing employment trends, working Singaporeans need a more comprehensive and integrated portable medical insurance scheme that is built upon the basic Medishield plan. Sir, through greater awareness concerning the variety of the medical insurance policies available, individual Singaporeans then can better tailor their medical coverage to suit their needs. Portable Medical Benefits Scheme”
“Sir, the 3M (Medisave, Medishield and Medifund) system is one of the key pillars of our social safety net. Through this financial framework, Singaporeans can better cope with the medical costs and able to enjoy favourable standards of medical care. However, this framework provides just the basic. We hope that more could be done to help Singaporeans understand better the healthcare challenges that they face and options available, eg, more comprehensive coverage for everyone and family. To kick off, MOH could consider actually working hand in hand with the labour movement and the grassroots organisations to promote public awareness of medical insurance. We need to help all to first understand the whole 3M framework fully and the need to get adequate personal and family medical insurance coverage to ensure that they can cope with hefty medical bills through better risk-pooling. Singaporeans should also be encouraged to ensure that their spouse and children also have adequate medical insurance coverage, with at least Medishield coverage. I welcome the announcement by the Minister to make Medishield an opt-out scheme for the young. In fact, we should also consider actually making it an opt-out scheme at the point of marriage for all the housewives, so that all the men can easily include their wife who might not have been able to make contribution to CPF. Sir, to strengthen our healthcare financing framework, we should also encourage Singaporeans to take up private enhanced Shield plan and, if need be, additional rider insurance scheme. This will ensure that working Singaporeans will not be dependent on or shortchanged by the loss of group hospitalisation and surgical insurance schemes that are in force, only if the individual remains in the company's employment.”
“On my proposal for time share legislation, I would like to seek a clarification from the Minister. While I agree that legislation is one way forward, would the Ministry consider making it as a requirement for all the time share companies to go for legislation before they operate? And on lemon law, I would like to also seek clarification from the Minister whether he would consider introducing such a legislation for certain products, for example, electronics or infocomm products.”
“As these oral agreements are not put into the contract, consumers suffer heavy losses since they are not protected by the law. In this regard, I would like to suggest that the proposed Timeshares Act include the following clauses: (1) To prolong the cooling-off period to 10 working days. This recommendation is made with reference to the "European Union Timeshare Guidelines" and the Guiding Principles announced by the Malaysian Supervisory Committee. (2) To forbid timeshare companies from receiving payments during the cooling-off period. The EU has already implemented this policy. (3) To disclose the letter of intent to the public every six months. (4) To appoint Small Claims Tribunal or Designated Court for court hearing of timeshare complaints. Currently, the Small Claims Tribunal does not have jurisdiction over any complaints arising out of timeshare agreement. (5) To revise the deadline given to enforce the law. (6) To ensure that the registered timeshare companies have a minimum paid-up capital. (7) To uncover the veil of timeshare companies so that restrictions can be imposed on the ownership. For example, the board of directors must be held responsible if the timeshare company goes into bankruptcy. (8) To protect the confidentiality of personal consumer information. (9) To fix the operation hours and code of business conduct and ethics for timeshare companies. The timeshare companies are not allowed to restrict consumers to stay for more than two hours in their office. Sir, the above proposed suggestions are for the Ministry's consideration. *Cols. 2823-2824.”
“[For vernacular speech, please refer to Appendix A *.] Sir, I understand that the Consumer Protection (Fair Trading) Act Working Committee has already submitted their work report to the Ministry of Trade and Industry. It highlighted the need to expand the scope of Fair Trading Act to deal with more unfair trade practices. In addition, it also proposes to place the financial services sector under the Consumer Protection (Fair Trading) Act. The Consumers Association of Singapore (CASE) has earlier submitted a proposal to MTI to suggest the possibility of introducing what is commonly called the "lemon law". Therefore, I would like to urge the Minister to reply at the earliest convenience with regard to the above proposal. Being the Chairman of CASE, I would like to propose the introduction of a new law to protect the rights of all consumers, that is, the Timeshares Act. Such a law will be applicable for commercial practices including timeshare rentals, timeshare advertisement services or timeshare termination services, cancellation of timeshare contracts, timeshare sales, timeshare resales, buying timeshares, timeshare rentals, and/or to provide refund services for consumers with existing timeshare contracts or timeshare agreements. Over the past few years, CASE has received continuous complaints against timeshare companies, and such complaints are becoming more and more. Usually, the timeshare companies will call up consumers and inform them that they have been selected and have won lucky draw prizes. But consumers will soon find out it is a timeshare scam and timeshare companies want to sell them thousands and thousands of dollars of timeshare packages. After making payment, consumers will then realise that the timeshare companies do not honour their promises.”
“We must continue to revise our policy, so that we can provide job flexibility, medical subsidies and incentives, and help set up senior citizens centres and old folks' homes. I urge that the Government allocate funds for training professional social workers, so as to provide quality eldercare, as well as a wide variety of services for senior citizens. In Hong Kong, the government has in place systematic eldercare services, something that Singapore can learn. I hope that our country will also have this kind of scheme to help the senior citizens and to build a happy home for our elderly citizens. Sir, I support the Budget. 7.10 pm”
“Divorce rates increased markedly, and some lonely elderly people are also waiting for the society and the family to care for them. According to New York Times, structural changes are occurring in China cities and villages, where many young people are moving out of the village to work in the bigger cities. About 80% of the elderly people above 60 years of age, out of a total of 147 million people, remain in the villages; nobody cares for them, nobody looks after them. The Confucian philosophical tradition of respecting the old and caring for the youth is gradually eroding, and no longer plays a central role. We do not want to see the same thing happening in Singapore. But in our country, it is not optimistic either. According to an NUS survey carried out from 1991 to 2000 on 712 elderly suicides, those committed suicide are aged 65 and above, ie, the older they are, the higher the suicide rates. The Chinese elderly have the highest suicide rates, followed by Indians and Malays. Results of the survey also showed that the Malay community has a higher degree of family cohesion. Even though they do not know their neighbours, they will still help one another. This is something lacking among the Chinese community. An NUH survey showed that depression is the main cause leading to suicides among the elderly. Because their children are busy with work, they have less time to communicate with their parents. As a result, it is much easier for them to slide into depression. One of the biggest challenges faced is the ageing of the population. The elderly people need to be cared for by the Government, the society and the family members.”
“So I suggest that the Government include this pre-school education into the mainstream education, to provide more subsidies to the pre-school nurseries and kindergartens. For example, in Hong Kong, the government supports these kindergartens. Their government provides $2 million per year to help enhance the quality of pre-school education and facilities. They lower school fees, give extra subsidies, and make sure that the teachers are highly qualified. In China, the government also subsidises heavily on nursery education and the kindergartens are given utility subsidies, rental reliefs, etc. Because the government is in charge of overall masterplanning for the nurseries, they are thus able to extend subsidies to the kindergarten operators. This helps kindergarten operators to lower their costs. As a result, nurseries are able to charge a lower rate of fees. For instance, in Fuzhou city, government rules require that there must be at least 12 kindergartens or nurseries per 6,000 people. In Beijing, for construction of residential projects including non-profit kindergartens, the operator will be given the right to use the land. I urge that our Government can learn from these countries, import their knowledge and experience in masterplanning of nursery facilities. Making pre-school and childcare centres more affordable will help encourage mothers to seek employment and increase birth rates. These housewives can take up full-time jobs or flexible part-time jobs, and this will help to ease the labour shortage in the market. As an Asian society, it is important that we strengthen the cohesiveness of our family and society. This is very important. Globalisation is here to stay, and the family, being the cornerstone of the society, is subject to great impact.”
“Our Government allocating more funds to help them is good news and it is even considering using our reserves to allocate more money to help these people. I believe this fund should be invested in our family units. In addition, I am very pleased to see that more people are benefiting from the post-secondary education account. Our Government has allocated $400 million to implement the post-secondary education account, as well as to provide the low-income group with a kindergarten subsidy of $80 per month. For those children who are under the childcare subsidy plan for low-income families, they will each get an additional $20 to $40 per month. It is very meaningful. However, regrettably, our mainstream education only starts from Primary 1, and not from kindergarten or pre-school education. As a Chinese idiom goes, a person's whole life is determined at the age of three. Therefore, it is important to give them a good headstart. Our country has 160,000 foreign maids. It implies that we have not placed enough emphasis on pre-school education. We have about 720 childcare nurseries and 500 kindergartens, but about 50 to 60 of them close down every year. This is due to unattractive salary package for the teachers. As such, they have difficulties attracting qualified people to join this industry. Also, there are not much future prospects and the pay is very low. For the parents, they complain that the $560 monthly fee is too high. During school holidays, the kindergarten is closed, but they still have to pay the kindergarten fees. As a result, this has an impact on our birth rates; it also lowers the employment rate of women.”
“Another scheme is our HDB Home Ownership Scheme. This is something that we are proud of. This is a social security net that every household can share. Even though our people may lose their job temporarily, they may not end up like the occupants in the movie “72 tenants” being homeless. This is a very important social security net. We have to ensure that our people will not lose out on this security net under the impact of globalisation. According to a 2003 HDB household survey, about 14.5% of households and families have downgraded from big flats to small flats. However, HDB loan schemes do not provide them with any financing. I hope the Government will review this constraint. According to the survey, our commercial banks also require the loan amount to be $100,000 and above. Therefore, this low-income group of people cannot obtain bank loans when they downgrade. Besides that, HDB has built 2-room flats in Sengkang. The first batch of 90 units attracted about 266 applicants. It means two-thirds of the applicants cannot get their flats. From this, we can see that small flats are welcomed by the people. I hope that HDB will continue to build more elderly flats and small flats, so that everybody will have a roof over their head. I realise that HDB has stopped building elderly flats. We hope that they will continue to provide this sort of small flats for the elderly so that they can enjoy this social security. I hope that our Government will understand the people's needs and map out the necessary policies accordingly. Sir, in order to ensure that our country continues to develop, we have to invest in our future. We must help those people from the low-income group.”
“Also, it is important for MOH to encourage those above 45 years to go for regular medical checkup. Sir, competition among countries is not only measured by our so-called business environment employability and high technological level, it is also measured by the physical fitness level of our people and quality standards, ie, whether they can do their job well. According to a report, our diabetes patients have increased from 4.7% in 1975 to 8.2% today. And the patients are getting younger. Therefore, it is necessary for MOH to allocate more resources into this area, to implement health programmes to help people maintain their physical fitness and state of health, and help them to plan in advance. Otherwise, these chronic diseases will increase family burden and social costs. We need to invest in our health. This is more important than the medical system. According to a recent happiness index survey, Singapore was ranked high as an ideal country suitable for living, free from sufferings. The question is, therefore, how we can help Singaporeans to face the challenges of globalisation and, at the same time, remain optimistic and have a strong faith, and let them enjoy their physical and mental health. This is more important than the Government's policy of giving out bonuses. I hope our Government will encourage the SMEs to educate their workers of the benefits of Medisave. Also, the Government has announced that corporate tax rate be reduced to 18%, and all the startup companies can get their tax exemption amounting up to a hundred thousand dollars. This can improve our SME's competitiveness. I hope the Government will also review the personal income tax rate of the lower income group, so that they can also benefit from this economic pie.”
“Sir, the medical expenses have been a concern for many people. A lot of people have requested our Government to exempt medical bills from hospitals and polyclinics from GST. We have this 3M framework which is a social security net for our people. However, I want to emphasise that, first of all, we must let everyone understand how 3M works for us and what its benefits are. A lot of people are still not aware of the benefits of this 3M. In this regard, I hope MOH will strengthen public awareness and educational efforts, so as to make this information more comprehensive to the people. Figures released by MOH in 2005 showed that about 23% of our people are not covered under this 3M. I hope MOH will work with NTUC, the Consumers Association and the Insurance Association in stepping up public education on the importance of a medical insurance scheme, and also to hear their views about medical insurance services. Today, many people who are self-employed are requested to make contributions to their Medisave account. Ideally, it should be implemented on a monthly basis, rather than on a yearly basis. In addition, I also hope that MOH will consider including housewives under the 3M system. We must also encourage the young workers to learn about the importance of the 3M scheme, so that our people will start to plan for their medical needs as early as 18 years old. The middle-aged people, once they suffer from chronic diseases, will benefit less from the medical scheme because they will not be eligible for the medical schemes or may get less in coverage. For this particular group of people, we must come up with an appropriate scheme for them, so that they can receive better benefits and coverage under the 3M scheme.”
“Instead, they hope that the Government will consider using the household per capita income as a benchmark. WIS is a very good policy but if you do not have any job, you cannot enjoy the benefit under WIS. So we must help our workers, including our housewives, to stay employed. In our country, we hope that IR and all other projects can provide more job opportunities for our workers. We hope that this will not only benefit the foreigners, it will also provide jobs for our own people. In Singapore, the employment rate of older male workers aged 60-64 years has increased from 49% in 1996 to 63% in 2006. This is only second to Japan, Korea and Sweden. And we are much better than Hong Kong, Taiwan and Northern America and Western European countries. Those aged 50 years and above make up 24% of the total labour market, but 68% of these people are elderly who are mostly in lower-skilled and lower-paid jobs. In Singapore, the employability of women aged 25 to 64 years is not as high when compared to other developed countries. This is so because women tend to resign after child birth, not because they do not want to work, but because there is a lack of job flexibility as well as part-time work available for them. So they cannot continue to work at the same time while taking care of their family commitments. Therefore, we must have a better employment structure, and to create more flexible job opportunities for them while rolling out this WIS. Even NTUC and the employers must cooperate with the Government and support the Government, so that we will provide more jobs for our people and to enable them to enjoy WIS. One good example would be Old Chang Kee. The industry can learn from Old Chang Kee and other established industries to provide suitable jobs for our elderly people.”
“It can effectively encourage our low-wage workers to stay employed, and as the saying goes, we are not afraid of earning less but we are afraid that it is distributed unequally. As we can see, the income gap is becoming wider and wider in many countries. In the wave of globalisation, we must narrow the income gap. It is a very great challenge, a difficult task. And we cannot stop those high-income earners benefiting from it. But we cannot let the wages of our low-wage workers remain low or even decline. So our labour market is just like a shopping market. If the foreign market can offer cheaper goods, we will just shop elsewhere. Similarly, if the foreign country has a lower labour cost, it will attract all the investors to their country. Therefore, we cannot follow other countries by setting a minimum wage law. For example, recently, the Philippine government raises the minimum wage to US$400. As a result, a lot of local families cut down on their demand for Filipino maids. It resulted in a 60% decline. It is an obvious example. We must learn from this. What we need to do is to raise the productivity of our low-wage workers. That is more pragmatic. Therefore, the unions and employers will try to raise the productivity of our workers through the skill redevelopment plan and the job redesign plan. However, some low-skill industries are facing the pressure from China and Vietnam. Our income has been declining. For the low-wage workers, the WIS comes in timely. It is divided into two portions, the cash portion and Medisave portion. It is a very good scheme. However, some people give us negative feedback because they think that it is not fair to set the distribution benchmark based on the $1,000 to $1,500 income category.”
“[For vernacular speech, please refer to Appendix A *. ] Sir, this year's Budget is clearly a strong boost to our economy; it will drive our economy forward and enhance employment opportunities. Many say it is great, it is generous, a lot to offer and very comprehensive. And they say it is detailed but yet it is also very complicated. It seems that this is a popular view among many people. So we need to improve the understanding of the people about this Budget. *Cols. 1771-1782. The Budget is a great boost to our economic development. It will enhance our employability and strengthen our job security. It is an economic watershed and it creates a new milestone. But many people have concentrated on the second part - the subsidies and supplement packages; as such, they have overlooked the first part of the Budget about how to promote our economic development, to ensure that it can be sustained. It is just like what our Minister said that the main focus is to strengthen our economy, so that our life will be better, and our pie will be bigger. So it is not just to distribute the pie only. We hope to make our economic pie bigger, so everybody can benefit from it, not only now, but we will benefit from it continuously into the future. As we all know, only when our economic development is being sustained and maintained between 5% and 7%, then our employment rate can remain at a high level. The revision in employer and employee CPF contribution rates for older workers is a good move towards achieving this end. And this is a good vision for us. This is also about the four pillars of our social security net and to provide good security for our people.”
“So sometimes, Members may see two cases that are almost similar, but the decision made is different because the background to the case may be slightly different and Members may not be aware of the background to those cases. Sometimes, at the Ministry, we will inform the Members the history of those cases so that Members become more aware of the circumstances of those cases and how the decisions were made whether to accede to their appeals or not. LOAN SHARKING ACTIVITIES AND HARASSMENT 3. Mr Wee Siew Kim asked the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Home Affairs if he will update the House on the activities of loan sharks, including (i) the number of police reports on harassment by loan sharks made by family members, neighbours and wrongly identified neighbours of debtors in the last 12 months; (ii) the trend of loan sharking and harassment activities over the last three years; (iii) the enforcement measures taken by the police in curbing illegal lending activities and harassment; (iv) the current procedures, deterrent measures and penalties for these criminals; and (v) the success rate of the police over the last three years and the expectations of the police force on future trends in this area of crime.”
“May I ask the Parliamentary Secretary whether he is aware that in fact the bank loan offer is not a clear cut alternative? Because for those who want to borrow money and they have been turned down by HDB, they will have to go to the bank. In Singapore, for most of, if not all, the banks, they will only approve loans with a minimum of $100,000, and there are people who actually do not need the money and end up having to borrow so much and get themselves into difficulties. Dr Mohamad Maliki Bin Osman: This is one of the challenges that HDB faces. Are we, in HDB, the banker of last resort, take up all the other cases that the banks do not want to offer? It is always a challenge. We do recognise the policies of the banks and the banks have every right to decide on their own lending policies. HDB recognises these policies in the banks. When cases come to us for appeals, perhaps for reasons that their loans are too small or because their household income is too low, there are many reasons that the banks give them for rejecting their appeals for a bank loan, for such circumstances, we do look at them. I would like to suggest to Members, where there have been cases that have been referred to HDB for appeals, if there are particular cases that they think are difficult or ought to be looked at more closely, do let us know. I would be able to give individual Members a history of the different cases that have been referred to us and to show how we have responded based on the different circumstances. For example, the inability to get bank loans because the loans are too small or poor credit records or various reasons, we have acceded to some of these requests. But, again, cases are very unique. No two cases are similar.”
“That is precisely the point. We must make sure our economy strive and prosper, so that there is fish in our water for our people to catch. However, the people must be prepared to take the challenge, otherwise even when there are so many fish in their catch, they will complain that the heavy load may capsize their boat. In Singapore, we have the "Home for Everyone" scheme so that the people not only have a flat to live in, but they could also own it. As a matter of fact, we have all sorts of safety nets or protection for our people. If Mr Low is interested, I can invite him to come and visit our NTUC website. He can see all sorts of assistance schemes for our people. 2.03 pm”
“They warrant the concern of the Government and the society at large. In China, about 80% of those 80 years and above are living in the countryside, with no one to care for them. I hope that this will not happen in Singapore. The NUH's survey shows that the number of elderly people suffering from depression has been rising. We should also look into this problem. Sir, when we look ahead, we must help everybody to understand that without soil, there would be no flowers; without the country, there would be no family; without the family, there would not be me. When we face the future, we must inherit the virtues and legacy of our forefathers, and be pragmatic and diligent, in order to build a better future and to make Singapore a better place of living for the three generations, ie, the young, the middle-aged and the old. We should be equipped for our future and build a future for our next generation. We should build a vibrant, fair and equitable society for all citizens, regardless of their race, language and religion, so that they may enjoy happy and fulfilling lives. * Cols. 709-724.”
“This is being taken advantage of by some people who have ulterior motives. When we face the future, at the present age where there are much noises and happenings, we cannot say something carelessly. We should be responsible for our speech and behaviour. We must handle the information on the Net seriously. We should invest in social education which emphasises on the traditional values/ethics, culture and world views. We should not shift the entire responsibility to the school, as it is the responsibility of everyone in the society. Sir, the President also highlighted the need to attract more foreign immigrants in order to increase our population. While we welcome them, we should also welcome their children to study and develop here. Many foreign students, including those from China, India, Indonesia and Malaysia, become permanent residents or citizens after their graduation. However, many areas in our education system require further improvement. Complaints against the private schools by the foreign and local students have been rising, as some students have been cheated by unscrupulous people. The Ministry of Education does not pay much attention to the quality of the private schools. It only requires the schools to register with the Ministry. Of over 100 private schools, we cannot really differentiate whether they are proper "educational institutions" or they are just "learning shops". We must look into this issue too. Apart from the long-term challenges due to globalisation, we should also reinforce and strengthen our family values. We should help those single women and men who are more than 40 years old. If they cannot set up their families, how can we talk about family cohesiveness? When they have problems, who can they turn to for support?”
“Out of some 720 childcare centres, about 50-60 centres close down each year. This has some impact on the family. Some families also complain that the fees of about $560 are too high, in spite of Government subsidies. We should look into this problem. Sir, I suggest that our Government incorporate pre-school education into the mainstream education system, coordinate the setting up of childcare centres and increase the subsidies and support for pre-school education. For example, in order to encourage procreation, the Hong Kong government increases the subsidies to non-profit-making kindergartens. On the average, each kindergarten can get about $2 million of funds to reduce the fees and to improve the quality of its pre-school education. We can also learn from another example in China. The public kindergartens in the major cities in China charge very low fees but provide very good facilities and education systems. Why can they afford to do so? This is because all developers and contractors are required to build kindergartens when they develop housing estates. It means that this kind of hardware - housing development - should include school building. They are required to provide high-quality school education and childcare services to the residents in the housing estates. Sir, these are the cases which we should learn from. Sir, I want to raise another point regarding education. We cannot ignore the need to protect our children from the influence of the Internet. MDA's survey shows that about 33% of those who are 15-49 years old provide contents to the Net, but only 45% of people would really analyse and scrutinise the contents on the Internet to some extent. Many people do not analyse its contents carefully. They just pass on the information freely and carelessly.”
“This is a safety net that we are proud of, because every family can share the fruits of development and success of our nation. Even though our people may lose their jobs, they would not be like the old people depicted in a TV show, "72 Tenants". In this show, people were thrown out of their flats and had nowhere to live after they lost their jobs. We must ensure that our people would not lose this security under the impact of globalisation. A recent survey by the HDB shows that a good number of people downgraded their flats from big to small ones. However, HDB does not provide housing loans for them. I am glad that the Minister will review these cases on a case-by-case basis. When they cannot get the loans from the HDB, they have to borrow from the commercial banks. However, the minimum sum they have to borrow from the financial institutions is $10,000. If the low-income group are not able to get housing loans, they may lose this important security under the house ownership scheme. In the end, if the banks finance them, say, $60,000, what if they cannot afford to service the loan? Their flats will be repossessed. In that case, we should continue to ensure that they have this security under the home ownership scheme. Another aspect is about the importance of increasing the birth rate to ensure our population growth. A common saying is: the whole life of a child is determined at the age of 3 years. 0 to 6 years is the most crucial period for the mental and intellectual development of a child. However, our mainstream education starts from Primary 1. Presently, we have 600,000 foreign maids. This shows that our childcare system is inadequate. It also shows that the education and teaching of our children are still inadequate.”
“It also provides training for its workers. Other companies should learn from them, by equipping their workers to face the future challenges, and help soften the impact of economic restructuring. The President also highlighted that our social safety nets are built upon the 3Ms, ie, Medisave, Medifund and MediShield. They are good schemes. However, we should correct the wrong mindset of the elderly: "I rather die than to fall sick." Medifund is a preventive health-care investment and measure to help the low-income group. It ensures that nobody would be unable to afford medical fees due to his economic problems. However, sometimes, some people may be afraid to seek medical treatment for their sickness. When we look ahead, we must consider the needs of the housewives too. We should draw them back to the workforce and include them under the 3M schemes. For those who are between 45-50 years of age and suffer from chronic illnesses, once they change jobs, their insurance benefits would be downgraded. Insurance companies may refuse to cover their illnesses, or their claimable sums may fall. They may lose their medical security eventually. We should work out suitable insurance schemes for them. I suggest that the Ministry of Health work closely with all the insurance companies, educate the public about the basic knowledge of medical insurance, and get their views and suggestions about the inadequacy of medical insurance. MOH should also encourage those above 45 years of age to check their health/fitness index regularly. This is because "prevention is better than cure". If a person is healthy, he can then take up a job after receiving some training. Sir, our social security system covers another area, ie, the house ownership scheme.”
“They may even complain that the fish is too small and fishy. Some people want to find easy jobs which pay high salaries, and impose all types of conditions impractically. Thus, we can recruit suitable people to counsel them and to change their mindset, so that they can get suitable jobs as soon as possible. Sir, we should not always expect our Government to solve the problems for the people. Our private enterprises should also bear some responsibilities. For example, as reported in the media, the SMRT had retail income which is unrelated to their normal operations. Its retail business was very profitable but its MRT business was losing money. I feel that the enterprises should also bear some responsibilities. They should not segregate the egg white from the egg yolk, because without the hen, there would be no eggs. If the SMRT does not provide the MRT services efficiently, it should not be allowed to run the retail shops to earn revenue to offset its operating losses. They should look after the interests of all the stakeholders, including employers and employees properly. All enterprises should be good corporate citizens. Tien Wah Press Company is a shinning example. It is a long-established company. Under the cooperation of its employers and employees, they have changed their work processes. In spite of the keen competition, the company has made arrangements for its elderly workers to upgrade their skills so that they would not be phased out during the transitional period. Moreover, the productivity of the workers and their incomes have also been raised. Old Chang Kee, which sells curry puffs, is also a good example. Apart from hiring elderly aunties, it provides flexible working schedule for them. This is to attract more aunties to work for them.”
“Even Chinese seamstresses are doing very well. We can adopt an innovative idea and train them to get a higher income by making artificial heart valves. An American life science company in Singapore has been successful in producing the artificial heart valves. It provides our elderly women with re-employment opportunities. On the other hand, we can also learn from other countries, such as Taiwan. There is an assistance scheme for the middle-aged women in Taiwan. Flexible jobs, training and financial assistance are available to them. There is a government subsidy to cover their interest payments for the financing of their new ventures. The women can apply for maternity leave for a maximum period of two years. During this period, although the women receive no income, the government would subsidise them in order to provide stability in their employment. Another scheme which I think we can learn from them is the so-called "Employment Aplenty Mama" scheme. Aunties are recruited. They go out and interview people, and help the unemployed to find matching jobs. It is reported that within one month after its launch, they found 1,982 unemployed people, and helped 110 unemployed people to return to work. This is the scheme that we should consider. It is very important to have a job. If a person loses his job, his whole family would suffer hardship. We can get the middle-aged aunties to go out and look for the unemployed people and help them find jobs. As they are closer to the people, they can understand their problems better, lead the unemployed to the right jobs and provide them with some sort of employment counselling. Apart from helping them to find jobs, we also encounter some problems. Some people want to catch the fish, but they think it is too troublesome to catch it.”