Clive Efford
MP for Eltham and Chislehurst · Labour · United Kingdom
“Thank you for allowing me to take part in this statement, Madam Deputy Speaker, given that I was not here at the beginning—I was carrying out my duties elsewhere in the House. I welcome the Secretary of State’s statement. What is she likely to do in my part of south-east London for technical and vocational places?”
“I rise to speak to amendment 97 in my name, which would remove clause 10 from the Bill. Clause 10 gives powers to the Secretary of State to vary the proportion of public and private provision of health services if they consider that to do so is in the interests of the health service.”
“Labour’s 2024 plan to make work pay set out a welcome desire to bring more essential services back into public control—something that is welcomed by health workers across the country, because so far the “biggest wave of insourcing in a generation”, as was promised, has felt more like a trickle when it comes to the NHS.”
“The explanatory notes for the Bill say that this new flexibility is necessary “where there may otherwise be a breakdown in provision of a health service.” Can we imagine a situation where the Secretary of State has concerns about a health service and that an approach to assist a local provider would be rebuffed?”
“There are ample powers to enable the Secretary of State to intervene and resolve breakdowns in the provision of a health service. On clause 10, we must balance what it adds in those situations against its potential misuse by an ideologically driven Government that are determined to privatise our NHS.”
“It was a pleasure to join my right hon. Friend at Greenwich council’s development of 435 council properties in my constituency for the launch of the social and affordable housing programme. Some 70,000 homes are planned, and that is welcome and overdue.”
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“This generation of NEETs grew up under Tory austerity, suffered the closure of Sure Start centres and finished their education with per pupil funding lower than it was in 2010, and then many of them grew up in poverty. Does my hon. Friend agree that we need a root-and-branch change from what we had under the Conservatives if we are to end the conveyor belt of young people finishing school and going into unemployment?”
“This is a terrible incident, and my heart goes out to Henry’s family. Is my right hon. Friend concerned, as I am, that some have said that the Macpherson inquiry has caused the police to hold back when dealing with people who perpetrate crimes and who may be from an ethnic minority? Does she agree that nothing in the Macpherson inquiry suggests that the police should behave in that way or excuses the extraordinary behaviour of the police at the scene of this crime, and does she think that what needs to be reviewed is the way in which police are trained to deal with incidents of this sort? It seems to me that what happened at the scene of this crime falls way below what we expect of the police.”
“I congratulate the Chancellor on her summer package of savings for families—it will give relief to those families who have booked domestic holidays, and a welcome boost to our domestic leisure and entertainment industries—but will she say a little bit more about how we intend to pass on the savings made by her tariff cuts through supermarkets? Too often, they have taken a cut and a slice off the reduced cost to them, so how do we ensure that all the savings get passed on to our constituents?”
“On 4 February, this House unanimously passed a motion on a Humble Address. It was the opinion of the whole House that all the documents relating to Peter Mandelson’s appointment should be made available and published, and that— [ Interruption. ] Wait for the question. The House agreed that those documents that were considered sensitive should go to the Intelligence and Security Committee. The Conservative party accepted an amendment to that effect on 4 February, but it seems that the Leader of the Opposition is not going to wait for the outcome of that process. Why has she moved this motion today?”
“The whole House came together around the Humble Address on the basis that Parliament had found its way forward to deal with the evidence around the appointment of Peter Mandelson. Will my right hon. Friend guarantee the House that no documents are being withheld? Around the time that it was reported that the Prime Minister had not been told that Peter Mandelson had failed his security vetting, there were civil servants who were seeking to withhold documents. Can he give an assurance that that is no longer the case?”
“First, I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend for the way he has handled this issue and for the way he has moved it on in the short time he has been in office. Everyone is very grateful for that. None the less, he knows that there are still widespread concerns among the community about the compensation process. Will he guarantee that those people will continue to be listened to and that their voices will not be dismissed, so we can adapt the process as it goes forward to address some of their concerns? I am grateful to him for coming to the all-party parliamentary group on haemophilia and contaminated blood to discuss this directly with the community. I would be grateful if he would do so again before the summer recess, so that people can talk to him directly about their concerns.”
“In September, Uber intends to roll out driverless taxis on UK roads, after the Government gave permission to companies to put driverless vehicles on our roads. This is causing concern among Uber drivers, who feel they are not being consulted by their employers about the impact it might have on their future employment. My right hon. Friend will recall P&O Ferries sacking its staff without notice and taking on foreign agency staff. There is very little difference with what Uber seems to be doing with its staff over the roll-out of driverless vehicles. May we have a statement from the Department for Transport? We do not want the Government featherbedding the sacking of existing staff in the way that P&O Ferries treated its staff in 2022.”
“The Prime Minister has always behaved with the utmost integrity and honour when dealing with this House, and he is an eminent lawyer who understands the consequences of deliberately coming to the House to mislead Parliament. On top of that, he also understands the likelihood of a paper trail unravelling such a deception, so it is inconceivable that he would intentionally mislead this House. But does he agree with me that all the documents relevant to this matter must be made public in accordance with the Humble Address that was passed on 4 February and that no Ministers or officials should engage in trying to prevent any of the documents from being made public?”
“Order. We are likely to start voting between 3 pm and 3.30 pm, and there could be up to 16 votes. At that stage, I will suspend the sitting and we will have to return. I cannot see us finishing all the speeches and the Front-Bench speeches in the time we have available—although if that happens, it is all good news.”
“Congratulations to the hon. Member for Swansea West (Torsten Bell) for keeping the debate in the main Chamber going long enough for us to finish this debate. Question put and agreed to . Resolved , That this House has considered the potential merits of creating a single status of worker.”
“Mistrust inevitably exists for people who have had to campaign for so long for justice from the state, so I welcome the fact that he is creating a new mechanism to listen to the community continuously as the process goes on. Does he agree that taking that way forward will help to avoid the disagreements we have had in the past?”
“I join my right hon. Friend in paying tribute to Sir Brian Langstaff who leads the inquiry and the people who gave evidence to it, which made his report so powerful, as my right hon. Friend said. I thank my right hon. Friend for the way he has engaged with this process in the short time he was been in office. It has moved things on immeasurably from where we were before, albeit building on the work that was done before. My right hon. Friend knows how complex this issue is, so the devil will be in the detail of the statement, but I welcome the news that the requirements for evidence will be reduced where people have already produced evidence and gone through previous thresholds, and are then required to provide it again when it is not available.”
“Order. Before you respond to that intervention, there are 10 Members on their feet and we have only just over half an hour for Back-Bench speeches, so that is roughly three and a half minutes each. Please bear in mind when you are speaking that the people behind you will have a three and a half minute limit—or less, if you speak for too long.”
“I am applying an informal three and a half minute time limit. If Members can keep to that, it would help me; otherwise, I will have to impose the limit rigidly.”
“Order. There is a Division. I am told to expect six votes, so I must suspend the sitting for about an hour and 15 minutes. If there are fewer, we can come back more quickly. Please come back as soon as the votes are finished.”
“I remind Members to remain standing to give us a chance to work out a time limit. It will be roughly four minutes, although I will not impose a strict limit.”
“My heart goes out to the bereaved families affected by this terrible tragedy. Their pain must be unimaginable, and I wish those who are being treated in hospital a swift recovery. I commend UKHSA for its swift response; notwithstanding any lessons that need to be learned, it seems to have reacted very quickly and effectively. How confident can we be that the outbreak is contained within the identified area, and is there a contingency plan for any outbreaks in other areas? As a south-east London MP, I have concerned constituents.”
“I urge him to keep the pressure on the airlines to deliver for our constituents.”
“We are looking forward to welcoming the Paymaster General at a meeting of the all-party parliamentary group on haemophilia and contaminated blood in the near future. He knows my constituent Mary Grindley, who has been a prominent campaigner. She lost her husband, and since then has campaigned for over half her life for compensation. She has recently been in touch with me to say that those making claims for the loss of loved ones are concerned about the lack of speed with which payments are being made. Will he update the House in future, if not now, on progress in paying those who were affected, rather than infected?”
“I came here for this statement on consular assistance to raise issues on behalf of my constituents. Clearly, the Conservatives have nothing to say on behalf of people who are really concerned about the situation in the middle east. During covid, when flights were cancelled, I remember airlines saying nice things, but the reality for our constituents was different. Cathay Pacific stole money from students, despite their having booked through the student travel association acting as its agent, and refused to honour the tickets or pay any compensation. It was absolutely disgraceful. I have constituents who are concerned about getting back now, so may I ask my hon. Friend to keep the pressure on the airlines? They will be as nice as pie to him, but when it comes to our constituents—face to face—they will get away with whatever they can.”
“I welcome my right hon. Friend’s statement—all I can say is more power to his renewable elbow. During my time in Parliament, we have gone through various crises. The price of oil and gas goes up, our constituents and businesses pay higher bills, and the Conservatives learn nothing. They do not realise that the only way to provide secure and cheap energy is to have a secure supply here at home. None the less, we are stuck with oil and gas in the meantime. May I urge my right hon. Friend to be open to assisting our constituents and businesses if they see a severe spike in their energy bills?”
“May I commend my right and learned hon. Friend for his resolute stand? It cannot have been easy to stand up to the President and not get dragged into this war, which has no apparent plan for its end. We made that mistake in 2003, and the result was disastrous. The President of the United States has made it clear that he wants to see regime change. Can my right hon. and learned Friend say whether he has seen evidence of any plan to achieve that in our negotiations with the United States?”
“I commend my right hon. Friend for grasping this nettle—it is long overdue. However, she will know, as we all know through our casework, that diagnosis leads to a delay in getting an EHCP and a delay in parents being able to advocate on behalf of their children. If fewer children will get EHCPs in the future, how will we ensure that parents can act as advocates for their children right the way through their pathway?”
“I am really excited by this announcement, because I am the chair of trustees of the Samuel Montagu youth club in my constituency, which has a roof that would benefit enormously from solar panels, which could generate income and make us more sustainable at a time when local government funding is drying up. We also have 13 acres of land, and I have always thought that we had the potential for ground source heating; if we could get some money to invest in that, we could provide energy to buildings around us as well. Does my right hon. Friend agree that when we delve into this issue, the scope is boundless? There are many projects that we could look into.”
“There is clearly concern about Government amendment (a)—that it does not go far enough to enable scrutiny of those documents that might be withheld. Across the House, there is a growing consensus that the Intelligence and Security Committee could provide a way forward for the independent scrutiny of those documents. Could a manuscript amendment be tabled to that effect—something we can all join together and vote for, so that we can take this serious matter forward?”
“Does the Prime Minister recall that during the time of Brexit negotiations, the Tories told us that we had more to gain outside of the EU than inside it and that, within days of Brexit, we would be signing trade deals with the US and China that would be bigger than the trade deals that existed with the EU? What we got was a botched Brexit that isolated us from our European neighbours, and now the Tories want to extend that isolation to a global scale. Does the Prime Minister agree that Britain would not be treated decently or with any confidence by our global neighbours and friends if we had adopted such an approach?”
“The key question here is: who advised the Prime Minister? I do not expect the Prime Minister to do due diligence on appointments of this kind himself, but those around him must have done so. It appears that questions that needed to be asked of Lord Mandelson were not asked, or, if they were asked, that the answers were not passed on. Will my right hon. Friend give us a guarantee that when this is investigated, those around the Prime Minister who would have advised him on this appointment will be investigated fully?”
“If this was truly a debate about the security of the Arctic, we would be talking about more than the sovereignty of Greenland, which is clearly a matter for the Danes and the people of Greenland. Does the Foreign Secretary agree that our collective interests and security are best served by working collectively through NATO, rather than creating division in that alliance, which will only help those who want to do us harm?”
“What they have all shown us is that the state will lie to defend itself, and we do need this duty of candour for all, including the security services, who can give evidence in camera, so that they tell the truth to the public when they get things wrong, and so we can learn from it and move forwards.”
“I welcome the delay to the Bill. Too often Governments soldier on even when they are not getting things right, and that leads to bad legislation. This is something that we should get right before we send it to the other place. As my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool West Derby (Ian Byrne) said, this is not just about the Hillsborough families, and I pay tribute to them for what they have done on behalf of others who have been wronged by the state. I say as chair of the all-party parliamentary group on haemophilia and contaminated blood that it is also about the people who were wronged in that scandal. It is about the nuclear test veterans, those wronged in the Horizon scandal in the Post Office and many others.”
“I am told that the Minister is on her way, but we will proceed because so many people want to speak. I remind Members to bob if they intend to make a speech, to give me a fighting chance of working out how long each Member will have to speak. It looks like Back Benchers will have an average of three minutes each, once we start.”
“Order. Interventions have to be a lot shorter. If Members are on the list to speak, it would be helpful if they saved their points for their speeches so that we can fit everyone in.”
“Order. Before I call Paulette Hamilton, I want to say that we will stick to a three-minute limit, but it is very tight. I may have to shave a minute or two off the Front-Bench speeches at the end so that I can get everyone in. We will see how it goes.”
“My hon. Friend the Member for Blyth and Ashington (Ian Lavery) has mentioned the threats to Colombia. The Foreign Secretary correctly said that we are the United Nations penholder for the peace accord achieved in 2016, after protracted negotiations between warring factions. The accord is heavily based on our agreements in Northern Ireland. Will she assure me that she has stressed to her American counterparts that the threat to peace in Colombia could unravel that accord?”
“I remind Members to bob in their place if they intend to speak in the debate. I want to bring in the Front Benchers at 2.28 pm. I am not going to impose a time limit now, but that will depend on how people behave.”
“I agree with my hon. Friend that the housing crisis has become an emergency, but can I ask for detail on an issue that I have raised with him in the House before? He said that it is a default yes for suitable proposals for the development of land around rail stations. He knows that I have a number of sports grounds close to railway stations that might attract the attention of developers as a result of what he has said today. Those grounds are not just a green lung for south-east London, but provide vital access to sports for people from central London, Kent and East Sussex. Can we have an assurance from him that these sites will not be put under threat, and that owners will not put these grounds under lock and key, say that there is no demand for them, and start planning to build houses on them?”
“Over my years here, I have seen many Budgets. Members on the Government Benches wave their Order Papers on the day, then watch as the Budget unravels over the next 48 hours, but we do not seem to have had any of that with this Budget. It has been extraordinarily tight in what it seeks to achieve— [ Interruption. ] The Tories are protesting on the Opposition Benches about the individuals involved, rather than the content of the Budget itself, because they have very little argument to make.”
“I understand that my right hon. Friend has inherited a disastrous situation in the criminal justice system. A huge backlog was left by the austerity of the Conservatives, so I have no truck with them. However, does he fear, as I do, that restricting trial by jury will put a certain class of people in judgment over the rest of us, and that the check and balance on that is that a jury can be drawn from those I would describe as working-class people? Does he fear that we will create an “us” and “them” in the criminal justice system by taking away people’s right to go to trial by jury?”
“I welcome my hon. Friend’s statement, but he will be aware of the widespread concern about the impact of the deep-sea mining of critical minerals, which devastates an ecosystem that we know very little about. I acknowledge that he may not have the answer now, but will he undertake to write to me to say what the Government could do to ensure that we do not encourage deep-sea mining by allowing it into our future strategy?”
“I can recall a predecessor of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary describing the Home Office as not being fit for purpose. I have never known a time when there was not a backlog of cases with the Home Office. This set of proposals will require people’s cases to be reviewed every 30 months. Is that a realistic aim, and is the Home Secretary clear that she can make the Home Office fit for the purpose she has set out today?”
“I am grateful to my hon. Friend and constituency neighbour for giving way. He is talking about local pressures for housing delivery and the brownfield-first approach. As he will know, a number of sports grounds in my constituency are increasingly subject to interest from would-be developers. Can he confirm that these proposals will include protections for much-needed sports grounds so that they are not open to that sort of speculative development?”
“When Tracey Crouch was appointed to lead the review of football governance, there was no opposition from Labour Members or the fans to the idea that a Conservative was going to lead that review; there was co-operation right across this House. When it was expedient for them, the Conservatives supported the fan-led review, but when the Bill went before Parliament and push came to shove, they opposed it. They are using it as a political football, but does my right hon. Friend agree that the football fans do not give a damn about this Westminster bubble argument? What they want is a regulator that is going to be on their side.”
“I welcome the Bill. We MPs come here to speak truth to power on behalf of our constituents. Now our constituents will have the right to force power to speak truth to them.”
“The silence allowed the state to avoid being held to account—something that we have seen again and again in the Hillsborough story, the Post Office Horizon story and all the rest. This has to stop, and the Bill will at last give a voice to victims. Although candour in public officials is welcome, the Bill fails to impose a similar duty on our media. Time and again, we have seen a significant section of our national media collaborate with officials, which has obstructed justice, misled the public and led to harassment of survivors and their families. Perhaps the most devastating example is the role of The Sun in respect of the Hillsborough tragedy; the paper directly conspired with South Yorkshire police to accuse fans of causing the disaster. I hope that as the Bill passes through all its stages, we can address this omission.”
“He exposes the scale of the deception and how the state failed to carry out research to make products safer, which could have saved lives and reduced infections. This in turn led to products not being HIV-free. At Treloar’s school, pupils with haemophilia were given contaminated blood products as part of an experiment. That is probably the most chilling part of the whole scandal. The former pupils of Treloar’s have called themselves “human guinea pigs”; those are their own words. What is worse is that the pupils were told that they had glandular fever. Their families were told not to tell anyone that it was HIV. The lack of a duty to tell the truth allowed the state to ignore the needs of the victims and their families. They were offered no help, support or counselling.”
“I co-chair the all-party parliamentary group on haemophilia and contaminated blood—addressing one of the worst examples the state deceiving people over many decades. At the start of his May 2024 report, Sir Brian Langstaff, the chair of the infected blood inquiry, sets out the depth of the state’s deception—how the state knew as early as the mid-1940s the dangers posed by transfusions of plasma, and the consequences. The risk of spreading infections through transfusions was known in the early days of the NHS, yet this did not result in research or any attempts to ensure that blood was being sourced from safe providers. The state doubled down on its denial while continuing to use products that put people at greater risk. Sir Brian goes on to accuse the state of a catalogue of failings, deliberate lies and obfuscation.”
“This legislation is long overdue. Looking back at the scandals where the state has deceived the people, some of which go back to the aftermath of the second world war, we see a long list of how the great British state has let down the people it is there to serve. In all these scandals involving the state versus the people, it is ordinary people who had to fight long and hard to get justice. In the contaminated blood scandal, it has taken over 50 years. For nuclear test veterans, it goes back to the 1950s. In the case of Hillsborough, it took 36 years. The list goes on. All these scandals demonstrate that there is something wrong at the heart of our state—that the state places itself above the people, will not allow itself to be seen to be wrong and, worse, refuses to offer redress for its wrongdoing.”
“Part of one of Sir Brian Langstaff’s recommendations was that they need extra support from the Department of Health and Social Care. On both these issues, what can my right hon. Friend do to assist the people making these applications and to get them the response to Sir Brian Langstaff’s recommendations that they deserve?”
“I welcome the statement from my right hon. Friend. This issue has its origins back in the 1940s, and it has been going on for an extraordinarily long time. The state has not been responding to or providing information to the people it should have been there to serve. We find ourselves in a situation where people have lived almost all their lives waiting for compensation, and now this issue is arising that they may pass away, having just received compensation, and their estate will then be subject to inheritance tax. The state is giving with one hand and taking back with the other. I realise that my right hon. Friend is not in the Treasury, but we need to take that issue forward. There is also this outstanding issue of support to the campaigning groups that support the applications of people who are infected and affected.”
“Right, that gives me a better idea. We will bring in the Front Benchers at 10.28 am, so that gives an idea of how much time there is for the six or seven Members who wish to speak.”