Richard Fuller
MP for North Bedfordshire · Conservative · United Kingdom
“I thank the Minister for his clear exposition of the Bill’s clauses. He emphasised the importance of the 2026 royal trustees’ review. The interesting thing is that it is their forecast of their needs over the next five years on which a lot of the mechanism rests.”
“I thank the Minister’s colleague the Exchequer Secretary, because on the 11th of this month, he wrote in reply to questions from my colleague, answering questions about some of the points that we may get into in detailed consideration of the Bill.”
“In his letter, the Minister said: “The Household forecasts that this income will increase by around 25% over the review period, based on recent performance, detailed modelling and increased visitor capacity… If income were lower than forecast, there is no expectation that the Grant would increase above £99.9 million per year.” Can the Min…”
“I thank the Minister for his speech. This follows a recent debate on ways and means that his colleague the Exchequer Secretary had with my hon. Friend the Member for North West Norfolk (James Wild). I do not wish to repeat the points that were made on that occasion. His Majesty’s official Opposition are supportive of this Bill.”
“Friend the Member for North West Norfolk (James Wild) asked about powers to adjust the grant between reviews and the circumstances in which they might be used, the answer from the Treasury was: “These powers are intended for exceptional circumstances and are not expected to be used routinely”, which, of course, is the definition of except…”
“Will the Minister explain how those financial assessments were made? What discount rate was used to work out what the estimates might be? I am not questioning it, and I do not need a precise figure; what I am looking for is some comfort from the Minister that he feels that those financial projections, that model and the work of the truste…”
The complete record
Every one of 608 lines we hold for Richard Fuller, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 9 of 13.
“Rules, codes, systems, data, penalties, redress, different organisations—this is your answer as a better solution to caveat emptor? Professor Hodges: Yes, absolutely. Now, let me give you one example only—”
“In all circumstances or specifically on this Bill? Well, we ought to stick to the Bill. I just want to be clear: you have just outlined the solution—this Bill is going part of the way to that—but the old way was, “I have personal responsibility,” “I am responsible for the decision I make,” “This is a very big decision about what I buy,” and so on. I just want to make sure that we are not trying to put too much faith—one of the last witnesses made some very good points on shared ownership and the fact that people may not have the encompassing knowledge—but I just want to make sure, from your expertise on regulation, that, in this field, you cannot see any damaging consequences for the principles of caveat emptor and personal responsibility by this regulatory structure that you have outlined? Professor Hodges: Not at all.”
“As I say, we have not issued our final recommendations, but we have already said something about the options that might be available if there was a desire to try to tackle that now.”
“This Bill, helpfully in some ways, seeks to plug some of those gaps in the protection of people who own homes, but would it not be better for us to ban the lack of adoption right at the start? Should we not go to the source and find a solution as to why councils and housing estate developers are ripping off my constituents, and I am sure many others, who own their own homes? What can be done about that in this Bill? George Lusty: Again, in our November working paper, we pointed to that very issue of there not being enough adoption by local authorities of those facilities. We put forward possible ways for that to be fixed, either through more mandatory adoption of those amenities or through some common adoptable standards that could be followed to inform the types of amenity that were suitable for adoption more broadly.”
“Q I want to follow on from the point made by my colleague, Mike Amesbury, about your November report. When it looked at estate management charges, there was a litany of abuses against residents who own their own home. As Mr Jones has just said, there was no information—or certainly not sufficient information—about obligations at the point of purchase. There was no transparency about the way in which information is provided. There were totally exorbitant charges for provision of basic things such as a bulb to go into a lamp post. There was an inability, or unwillingness, to provide annual reports to people, and limited to no redress for consumers. I know that you are going to get to your final report in February.”
“Q My concern is that you are going to finish your report, quite rightly, in the fullness of time—that will be February—and this Committee will not be sitting in February; heaven help us, I hope not. Please could you go away with a piece of homework for tonight to write to the Committee about what ideas from your report so far could be put in the Bill on the adoption matter? I think all of us would find that very helpful. George Lusty indicated assent .”
“Q Let me attempt to get back on to Conservative territory, rather than Barry’s territory. There are many experts in this field, and campaigners have done some fantastic work. I am not one of them—I do not know about this—so allow me some naivety in the questions I pose. Is marriage value a real thing? James Vitali: I think a lot of the reforms proposed in this Bill are an attempt to reflect better the fact that when the leaseholder purchases the leasehold, they are acquiring the majority value of the asset. In market terms, sure, I suppose marriage value is significant and substantive, but as it stands it seems to me that a leaseholder acquires the majority of the value of an asset when they acquire the leasehold, and that is slowly eroded. I think that is the thing that is wrong in the process.”
“If you were to acquire some property that you have genuine rights and responsibilities for the management of, the ability to benefit from in the future and the ability to control, then that form of property would be greater than if you were subject to charges and ground rent. On the point about the £1.9 billion transfer value from freeholders to leaseholders, I did take a cursory look at the impact assessment. I do think that is a legitimate decision for you as parliamentarians to make about 10-year property rights in the UK. I think it is justified.”
“Q That did not quite answer my question. My question was: is marriage value a real thing? It could be large or small. Can you describe what it is and do you perceive that it is a real thing? I read somewhere about some vases—I do not know why we have these vase analogies sometimes—and I kind of get it. There is vase A and vase B—apparently they have to be Chinese—and when you put the two together, they are more valuable than they are separately. Is that a real thing? Do you understand that as a source of value? If you do, can you explain to me the legitimacy of transferring, at a stroke, £1.9 billion of that from one group of people to another, and that not to be described as a windfall gain? James Vitali: Tricky question.”
“James Vitali: I think that is where the dividing line lies between you and Mr Gardiner, and perhaps you and I and Mr Gardiner.”
“Q I have one final question, if I may. I know it is not quite at a stroke, because I think it is when they come up, but is there any way of mitigating? It seems to me that when you take something away from one person incompletely and you cannot actually say, “Well, the value wasn’t there”—I understand fee-for-service but marriage value is different from that—there is no other mitigation for the loss of that party, and there is not in the Bill. We can agree that marriage value needs to go; we are finally going from class A of people to class B of people. We could, however, then put in some mitigation for those who are having a loss, which would be usual if they had not done something materially wrong. What do you think about that?”
“Oh, it is much wider than that. James Vitali: Indeed. I think a balancing act needs to be struck in this Bill between spreading genuine property rights more widely and compensating those existing freeholders. If you seek to diffuse property ownership, but in the process undermine or dilute property rights, you are undermining the thing that you are trying to spread more evenly. That is a technical question for the way that you finesse this Bill, but I do not think it is a substantive issue with the desire to give leaseholders greater control and rights over their property.”
“Q Our previous witness, Mr Vitali, talked about potential concerns about the effect of regulation on people’s understanding of property rights. Do you have any significant concerns about how the Bill affects property rights? If you do, what should we do about them? Philip Rainey: In a sense, that is a conceptual question.”
“The Law Society does not take sides between landlords and tenants, or different types of clients. We just want to make sure that Parliament focuses on the issue and makes the decision in the public interest.”
“Some provisions of the Bill, which are fine, are to say that if the tenants are enfranchising, they do not have to buy the commercial bits of the building. Those can be left with the landlord under a leaseback, and therefore the value remains with the landlord. Both parties win: the landlord keeps the value and the tenants do not have to pay as much money. But where you are transferring value, there is always a loser, and there are lots of investors who appear to have bought in good faith and were not expecting retrospective legislation. Lawyers always do not like retrospective legislation. It is up to Parliament to decide whether the social benefit is sufficient to outweigh the concern about pension funds, and so on, that have invested in ground rents.”
“Philip Freedman: I have heard a number of cases where the property industry is concerned about the transfer of value that will be effected by capping ground rents, removing marriage value and so on, in relation not just to the benefit to leaseholders but to the burden on those landlords that are pension funds and other organisations that will find that they are deprived of rental income that they have banked on and have thought will be reliable income over many years. They bought leases that were perfectly lawful, were not, so far as one can tell, entered into under any mis-selling, and the provisions for the ground rent are not necessarily unconscionable; the ground rents were invested in in good faith. We must not lose sight of the fact that if there are winners, there are always losers.”
“A lot of the things you find in leases and the restrictions when living in flats are because, if you live communally in a block of flats, you owe duties to your neighbours. There are responsibilities, in communal living, that do not apply if you live in a small house in a field, 500 yards from your neighbours. The restrictions in the leasehold system are not as unique to leasehold as you might think; I would suggest otherwise. To go back to your basic point, clearly the Bill alters property rights. It is a value judgment as to whether that is the right thing to do.”
“You are a lawyer. Philip Rainey: Yes, and one tends to avoid the philosophical points. Clearly, from a legal perspective the Bill interferes in an extremely significant way with property rights. Whether that is the right thing to do is a value judgment. One thing that is sometimes overlooked—I am not defending the leasehold system; I am on record as being in favour of commonhold, which is inherently a more satisfactory system for holding flats—is that a lot of people will be disappointed when commonhold comes in. They will still find that they are not allowed to remove the supporting walls in their flat or to have a noisy party on a Friday night, because their neighbours do not want that.”
“On a point of order, Dame Caroline. I am wondering whether my colleague, Mr Gardiner, is getting to a question rather than just expressing a view.”
“That is part of the issue of you not being able to scrutinise the impact assessment within the ground rent consultation, where the Secretary of State is on record as saying he wants a peppercorn ground rent; in that it says the impact would be £27.7 billion. If you add that to the £3.2 billion in the Leasehold and Freehold Reform Bill impact assessment, that is where you get to.”
“Q Perhaps Mr Gardiner will call a point of order on me. I have been talking about this transfer of value. There are non-monetised here, but there is £1.9 billion of transfer. I think we have accepted from previous witnesses of all types that it is a political decision, but it is essentially taking from group A to group B. You just, I think, said there were ground rents that are not enumerated here, and I think you said they were not £1.9 billion, but £29 billion or £30 billion. Could you elaborate on that? Jack Spearman: This is a bit of an issue we have with the way the impact assessments have worked, because the impact assessment for the leasehold and freehold Bill did not take consideration of the consultation impact assessment that came out on ground rent. They are not working together.”
“Q So just to be clear, as the Committee considers this Bill, including what may come from subsequent secondary legislation, it is not £1.9 billion of transfer, but £1.9 billion plus £28 billion. Is that fair? So we need to bring it all in, not just— Jack Spearman: I think it is a bit more, actually. Is it not £3.17 billion in this one?”
“But a bit like an iceberg, the transfer of wealth from group A to group B is somewhere else; it is not here in the impact assessment. Jack Spearman: Agreed. Also, in terms of the people it is being transferred to and from, remember that while a lot of leaseholders are homeowners, there are also a lot of buy-to-let investors in that group—over 50% in our membership, of leaseholders are buy-to-let investors. That is a transfer from business to business being overseen by this Bill.”
“It should be done on a no-act principle. It should be enabled to be dynamic so that, as I said, you do not have this problem of the Secretary of State having to arbitrarily change it—it should be able to move with the market. It should be something that is available for reference.”
“Q Can I ask you about the discount rates that are used? We have the deferment rate and the capitalisation rate. Those will be determined in secondary legislation as well. Do you have any thoughts about what guidance should be given to the Minister about how those should be set? Jack Spearman: Yes. It is very important that, at the very least, the primary legislation sets out what reference the Minister should look to—something dynamic would be helpful, so that you don’t have these ridiculously long periods of time where one party is out or in. I think people have talked about looking at some long-term ideas, whether that is the National Loans Fund rate or the longest Treasury gilt. You obviously don’t want to make it too dynamic, so that it is always shifting around, but I think it should clearly reflect market value.”
“I want to follow up on the comment from my right hon. Friend the Member for East Yorkshire on the role of the FCA. The Minister will be aware of the concerns of Members on the Government Back Benches about the speed with which regulators perform their duties, how much we pass on to them, and how much we trust them to fulfil the will not just of Parliament but of our representatives. That applies to the FCA. I do not expect the Minister to comment on that directly, but can he assure the Committee that he will use his position to ensure that the FCA is kept on track in implementing the reforms at pace?”
“Q Mr Boyd, I want to pick up something you said in answer to the shadow Minster, when you were talking about the treatment of property managers or managing agents in the private sector. You enumerated a list of three options: a code of conduct, which you said existed in the social sector; legislation or regulation; and also qualification, which I took to be professional qualification. Which of those three is the preferred path, in your view? Mr Martin Boyd: I do not think the Leasehold Advisory Service would have a specific preferred path. At least two of those are important. I will add a fourth, actually. It is illogical that we do not have a requirement for professional qualifications for those managing particularly complex buildings.”
“The ex-chair of the managing agents’ trade body said that it is perfectly legal to set up a property management company in your back bedroom in the morning and be collecting a large amount of money in the afternoon, without any regulation. I think that is a problem. One of the issues not considered in the Bill—perhaps it would not be relevant, although the Government need to consider it at some point soon—is that there is still no proper control of leaseholders’ funds. It is very likely that the two largest managing agents in this country hold between them somewhere between £1 billion and £2 billion. There is no Financial Conduct Authority regulation of how that money is held.”
“Q Why is it illogical? I have no qualifications to be an MP; I am supposed to look after lots of things. Mr Martin Boyd: I will be cautious, so that I am not rude in answering that. There are a set of skills that you would expect to acquire as an MP, and a certain set of skills that you need to acquire as a property manager. Buildings are complex entities, particularly large buildings. They have a lot of plant and a lot of complex systems. There is quite a complex interaction with the people who live in those buildings. There are voluntary qualifications that we have in the sector. The Secretary of State decided recently that there should be a mandatory level of qualification in the social sector. I do not see there being a logic in saying that we need one or the other. In terms of regulation of managing agents, there is a problem.”
“Q I notice in Mr Boyd’s resume that LEASE is “to champion the rights of leaseholders and park homeowners.” I have a number of park home owners in my constituency, as I am sure many colleagues do. Are there any provisions in the Bill, or is there anything that could be added to it, that would improve the lot of park home owners? Mr Martin Boyd: Yes, there is, but again that goes on to the long list of things that could be added to the Bill. Park homes have been a difficult area for many years. It is a relatively small part of LEASE’s work, but it is work that will be expanding as we move forward. I am more than happy to talk to you about some of the provisions on park homes that could be added.”
“Q This is a question I will ask a number of witnesses. We do an impact assessment for legislative change to all Bills, sometimes done well and sometimes less so. This has an assessment of the total cost of the Bill, with the best estimate being £2.9 billion. That is quite large for a Bill. A large part of that—about two thirds—is a transfer of the value from freeholders to leaseholders. That is at £1.8 billion, or £1.9 billion. What are your thoughts about that transfer of wealth? Jo Derbyshire: It is long overdue; bring it on.”
“Q From that, are you implying that your view is that it has been a rip-off to date, and therefore there are monies that you should have been having for all the years you have been paying and there was no value to it? Jo Derbyshire : If I think of my estate, there was no reason whatsoever to create leasehold houses other than to make money from the people who had bought them. That is partly why, going back to an earlier question, it is taking so long to dismantle the system in this country: it is because there is so much money for nothing in it. That is why it is so hard to dismantle it.”
“Q I cannot remember whether it was you, Jo, or Kate—if I may call you by your first names—who works in a pension fund. Jo Derbyshire : I work in a pension fund.”
“Q On the change in pension funds and investments, you may have different views about how important that is and my colleague asked you that question. However, putting yourself in the place of the people who own the freehold—some may be large overseas entities, some may be members of the peerage of the realm and there may be others—what is your view and what assessment have you made of the impact on them? Jo Derbyshire: From my perspective, it is just about how all investment carries risk. This is no different. This is about rebalancing the scales in terms of leaseholders and freeholders. For me, it is about fairness for leaseholders. That is what the Law Commission was tasked with a few years ago, it is what we have been fighting for over the last however many years and that is what this does.”
“What I would like to do is to take those figures back, because they appear in part 3 as well as in relation to the estate management charges. The way in which they are formulated is that they are damages that can be awarded to a tenant if they make an application, certainly on the leasehold side of things—”
“Then in clause 51, which addresses other aspects of what should be provided—in this case, charge schedules; you said how important they were—there is a maximum charge of £1,000. Does that sound like a sufficiently large sling from which a shot may be fired, or is it just a cost of doing business? Amanda Gourlay: Again, we come back to the fact that for some landlords, particularly those that might be management companies with no other assets, £1,000 would be crippling; effectively, that might put them into insolvency unless they can recover those moneys from other leaseholders. For other landlords, even £5,000 will be next to nothing. It is a shot across the bows; it is clear that such failure is regarded with disapproval.”
“Q Ms Gourlay, I just wanted to go to part 4, which is about the regulation of estate management charges. You talked at the outset about bringing everything together in the process and we have heard a lot about people saying how it is all a bit of a David and Goliath process, so I wanted to get your views on how effective you think some of the measures in the Bill are when it comes to trying to help David in his battle against Goliath. We should always remember that David actually beats Goliath; I do not know why or whether that is a bad thing. You talked also about the provision of information and how important it is that people have access to annual reports and so on. In clause 49, there is a provision whereby the failure to provide things such as annual reports will carry a charge, with a maximum charge of up to £5,000.”
“Q Not in this section. Amanda Gourlay: Not in that section. If it is effectively a civil fine, there needs to be a sliding scale. In the tenancy deposit scheme, the way that things work is that, as you may know, if the landlord has not protected the deposit, they have to pay back an amount that is between one and three times that deposit. Some form of sliding scale would seem to be appropriate. I am not the right person to ask about sums and amounts; that is a policy question, really.”
“Q However, I think you have given some view about how you think it should be assessed. Amanda Gourlay: I think it should be assessed on a sliding scale, to take account of the differences of interest—”
“Q The other part is that bringing a lot of this together will mean that the first-tier tribunal has a lot more work. Do you think that people may want to get justice, but that it will be denied because the first-tier tribunal is going to be overwhelmed? Amanda Gourlay: I would not anticipate that the first-tier tribunal would be overwhelmed. At the moment, I find that my hearings go through within a reasonable period of time. That is the best I can say.”
“The leaseholder is only interested in what they have to pay for their home and the landlords have an eye not only to that particular property, but also to what it would mean for their portfolio of investments—so they agree a particular rate on one flat in a block, for example. The Bill ensures that those rates are fixed by the Secretary of State and mandated, so there is then no argument about what rate applies in an individual case. It takes away that whole dispute and ensures that the same rates are applied in all claims.”
“Q Can we talk a little about discount rates? I think there are two, but there may be more. There is the capitalisation rate and the deferment rate. Could you explain how, if at all, the Bill changes either of those discount rates and what the rationale for that change is? Professor Hopkins: The Bill ensures that those rates will be prescribed by the Secretary of State. At the moment, on every enfranchisement claim—whether it is the lease extension or the purchase of the freehold—the rate used to capitalise a ground rent and to determine the price paid for the reversion has to be agreed for the individual transaction. That is a significant source of dispute, and it is a dispute where there is a real inequality of arms.”
“Q What is the merit of allowing politicians to fix the rate? Does that not that create other hazards? Professor Hopkins: The politician will be fixing the rate through advice that they receive.”
“In relation to the fixing of rates, we identified two separate options: they could be fixed at market rate; and they could be fixed at below market rate to reduce the price leaseholders pay to a greater extent. We put the decision on how to fix the rates as a matter for the Government to consider, and now the power is given to the Secretary of State.”
“Q Well, we do not allow politicians to set interest rates any more, because we realise that that was subject to political whimsy and error, so we gave that to the Bank of England—which of course is always right. I am just wondering, does there not seem to be some hazard here? I understand the point about trying to get the rate fixed and the imbalance in individual discussions, but why is it not in the Bill that it would be based on market conditions or prevailing rates? Why not go for something like that, which everyone can see and is transparent—you can feed it into a calculator—rather than allowing politicians to have that role? Professor Hopkins: In our report on valuation, we set out a number of options for reform to reduce the price payable.”
“It is probably because the Bill removes marriage value from the premium, which adds a significant sum to premiums now for leaseholders who have 80 years or less, so I think a lot of that sum is the saving.”
“Q If I may, I have another question. We always do an impact assessment on Bills. This one has quite a large impact assessment, which is in the billions of pounds—£2.984 billion is the present value for costs. I looked in detail at that, and the vast majority is about a transfer of value from freeholders to leaseholders; it is not about benefits from more efficient systems. If I look at the first section, £2.8 billion is transfers and £400 million is benefits. Is there a particular reason why it is so heavily weighted to transfers? Professor Hopkins: The impact assessment is not a Law Commission impact assessment. We have provided technical input to the Government in preparing that assessment. I am not sure that I can give a definitive reason why so much more was in one pot than the other.”
“Q And that was the Law Commission’s objective. Professor Hopkins: The terms of reference that we agreed with Government for the project in relation to premium were that we would provide options to reduce the price payable while providing sufficient compensation to landlords, recognising their legitimate property interests.”
“Q Part 4 of the Bill is called “Regulation of estate management”, which I think is a particular area of interest for you. You said that it all starts at the beginning, when councils and developers decide to do that. Do you think that getting control of that is an essential part of the effective regulation of estate management? Halima Ali: I do not agree that it is. All it is doing is creating a two-tier system where a set of homeowners, like myself, living on a private estate are dealing with this situation, whereas other homeowners are not. I do not see how regulating it is helping, because overall, the management company still get to set the fee.”
“I was not being very clear, I am sorry—it is my job to be clear, not yours. I think what you were saying is that this is trying to fix the problem, but the root of the problem is that councils are permitting this to go ahead. Halima Ali: Yes, absolutely.”