Sir Alec Shelbrooke
MP for Wetherby and Easingwold · Conservative · United Kingdom
“I am extremely grateful to the hon. Lady for giving way. She has outlined the will of this House, but she may remember that, during the passage of the last Bill, I asked the then Prime Minister at Prime Minister’s questions to do what has happened with similar Bills in the past—on homosexuality, on abortion and on the death penalty—which…”
“I am okay, Madam Deputy Speaker. I will struggle on, thank you very much. The Minister has outlined that there is an investment programme for technology and upgrades, but with software upgrades, there is always the concern that the premise of the programmes will keep getting changed, and that can bring in delays or bugs to a system.”
“I will call Alex Mayer to move the motion and then the Minister to respond. I remind other Members that they may make a speech only with the prior permission of the Member in charge of the debate and the Minister. As is the convention for for 30-minute debates, there will not be an opportunity for the Member in charge to wind up.”
“With digital television, these days someone can just stick up a Squarial, point it in roughly the right direction and get their television channels—my wife and I have taken holidays in a canal boat and in a camper van, and we have been able to do that.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Dr Allin-Khan. Universal accessibility is vital in this debate. I agree with much of what has been said so far, but I am concerned about the switch-off of free-to-air as it stands. In the year I was elected, 2010, there were strong proposals to switch off the FM and AM signals.”
“Most of those DAB radios are now in the bin, because DAB+ was brought out and Classic FM stopped broadcasting on DAB; my previous car did not have DAB+, so I had to go back to FM to listen. I am sure we all have certain digital radio sets that now do not pick up many channels at all.”
The complete record
Every one of 602 lines we hold for Sir Alec Shelbrooke, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 9 of 13.
“I started to have blood in my poo, and bloated stomach, I was having upper quadrant pain, and getting these weird red dots on my skin, suffering with night sweats and random fast heart palpitations. I thought I was going to die. From the age of 13 being called a liar, being shoved pain killers and anti depressants, being told that it is just a period and to get over it by GPs…several referrals to gynaecology from the age of 17. Being told I have a low pain tolerance and to just have a baby as that will sort everything out. Also reassuring me that nothing was wrong at all with my fertility (how wrong they were)…Being misdiagnosed with anxiety, depression, IBS, piles, querying bowel cancer and Crohn’s…Being told I had a tiny cyst on my ovary that meant nothing, and that I have dramatised and medicalised the situation as I know it is there.”
“I am going to read her description because it paints the picture of why this is so important. “I am a stage 4 endometriosis sufferer, in which it took over 15 years to be diagnosed, in which time my story, in brief, was: Every month since I started my period I would spend the first day sat in the toilet holding my bin. So that I could be sick and completely empty my bowels. I would then 9/10 pass out in the bathroom or on the hall trying to get to my bedroom. If I wasn’t lucky enough to be out cold, I would have to take enough painkillers to knock me out. I would then spend two days in bed having hot sweats in a cycle of being in pain, throwing up and sleeping. When I hit 30 I started to have mid cycle pains and neurological symptoms and extreme fatigue, in which I struggled to stay awake, and I would have to take daily naps.”
“People with endometriosis also have a higher risk of the following diseases. That is important because we educate about those diseases, but we are not educating about endometriosis. Compared with the general public, sufferers have: a 37% higher chance of developing ovarian cancer; a 38% higher chance of developing endocrine tumours; a 26% higher chance of developing kidney cancer; a 33% higher chance of developing thyroid cancer; a 37% higher chance of developing brain tumours; a 23% higher chance of developing malignant melanoma; and a 62% higher chance of having a heart attack, and that is a direct result of blood loss and anaemia. Another account I have is from a lady who contacted me after I went to the premiere of “Below the Belt” in 2022, which I recommend to anybody who has an interest in this subject.”
“I am most grateful to the hon. Lady—my hon. Friend; we have done a great amount of work on this together. This is truly a cross-party effort, also involving the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon); I know the hon. Member for Livingston (Hannah Bardell) would want a mention of the work she has done. The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle is right, and I am going to touch on some of that later on; I have also had representations from people to touch on that issue. The hon. Lady mentioned the reason why I am glad we are having this debate: it is highly relevant, based on the statement made last Thursday. I am glad that the Minister has been able to find time to respond to this debate, because it is absolutely right that we try to use this moment to highlight the point.”
“I really want to push for endometriosis to be in the curriculum on sex education in the way that breast cancer is included in personal health education. Endometriosis is another terrible disease, and it does result in death. There is no getting round that. Everybody needs to understand the disease, which is where education becomes the responsibility of the Government. I will finish with this: if someone does not know a disease exists, how do they know they have got a disease?”
“Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle spoke about menstruation now starting in nine-year-olds. One of the questions I have for the Minister is what work he will be doing with health professionals to consider when we should be putting endometriosis education into the curriculum. I believe it is important that girls know about the potential problems that could affect them before they start menstruation—maybe boys can be taught later. I seek the Minister’s guidance, and maybe he will need to take the question away, on what work he will do to find out when we can put that in the curriculum. There is obviously a lot of science about what the average age is to start menstruation. We heard the example of the woman who from the moment her periods started was in pain. Girls need to understand what it is.”
“Finally, the Government propose the introduction of a new requirement to cover reproductive health, fertility and menopause to pupils in secondary schools. Endometriosis UK supports that. To conclude, I have some questions to ask the Minister. This disease affects 10% of women. That is millions of women. Symptoms can be anything from mild to horrific. Tragically, dozens of women every year take their life over this disease because they cannot cope any longer with the pain. It is a very difficult disease to solve, but knowledge of what the disease is at the start, may provide a head start in improving the eight to 10 years’ waiting time for a diagnosis. I believe that that is because people just do not know enough about it. I gave the example of that poor woman who experienced pain from the start of her periods. My hon.”
“Endometriosis UK would like to see all pupils, including male pupils, learn about menstruation in primary school. The Government propose the introduction of a new requirement to cover gynaecological health for pupils and secondary schools, including what an average period is, period problems such as premenstrual syndrome, heavy menstrual bleeding, endometriosis, polycystic ovary syndrome—PCOS—and when to seek help from healthcare professionals. Endometriosis UK is extremely supportive. Endometriosis being on the curriculum for all pupils in secondary school would be a major step forward. Endometriosis UK is delighted to see plans for specific content focusing on when to seek help from healthcare professionals, which will help to drive down diagnosis times for endometriosis.”
“Endometriosis UK is concerned that the proposed new age restrictions may prevent some children learning about periods before they start having periods, and it seeks further consideration of this matter. The Government propose the introduction of a specific reference to children being taught the more appropriate language of “periods and menstrual products”, rather than “sanitary items” or “hygiene products”. Endometriosis UK fully supports that. Outdated language and a focus on “hygiene” and “sanitary products” feeds a myth that menstruation is dirty and unhygienic, rather than a natural and normal process. The Government propose the removal of a previous reference to male pupils when learning about menstruation in primary school.”
“It always comes down to a lack of education and knowledge, and not understanding situations. Maybe I am a naive politician, but I do believe in the good in people. I do not believe that people want to treat others badly, but they just do not know anything about this, and that comes down to education and the curriculum. I have received a note, drawing on what the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle has said, from Endometriosis UK, which asks whether I could raise these points in this debate directly with the Minister. The Government proposal is to remove a previous reference to covering menstruation in the curriculum in primary schools before the onset of puberty, and to introduce a not-before-year-4 age limit on when pupils learn about menstruation.”
“I am sure everyone here agrees that that is highly important education, and that cancer is a terrible disease. That is the word: it is a disease. Endometriosis is a disease, and it should be getting exactly the same treatment in the curriculum as other diseases. I noted the Secretary of State’s comments about a range of diseases that are being looked at with a view to bringing them into the curriculum, but I am specifically talking about endometriosis today to push the issue forward. As I have pointed out, it is vital that we teach this to boys and girls, as the information can be important to them later as adults when, for example, they might be bosses running a company or business. I genuinely do not believe that people are of bad mind. I do not believe that people want to be evil to people or to bully them.”
“Key stages 3 to 5 include “The Truth, Undressed” lessons, in collaboration with Canesten—a set of four lessons promoting understanding of vulval and vaginal health. Key stages 3 to 4 include lessons on breast cancer, in collaboration with breast cancer charity CoppaFeel!, to encourage young people to get to know their bodies and adopt healthy behaviours from a young age. This lesson includes essential knowledge about breast cancer, information on healthy lifestyle choices that may reduce a person’s risk of getting cancer, guidance to help them get to know their bodies, and guidance on what to do if they find something that is not normal for them. Key stages 3 to 5 include lessons on testicular health, with information on testicular torsion, orchidectomy and testicular cancer.”
“On the hon. Lady’s point, I am rather concerned about reports in the press about schools not allowing girls to use the toilets, saying that they have period passes and that they should plan around it. All those policies are set up around normal periods. That goes to show that there is a distinct lack of understanding throughout, not just in the curriculum but throughout the school’s policies. That is why it is vital to move this issue forward quickly. I did some research, which I am sure the Minister is well aware of, about what happens at each key stage, and how physical health education is taught. At key stages 4 to 5, lessons on fertility and pregnancy choices include how an individual’s fertility changes over a lifetime, and where to seek medical help and emotional support.”
“It would be remiss of me not to mention the fact that endometriosis continues for many people after the menopause. It is not a disease just for women who menstruate; it can continue after the menopause, and it can start before menstruation. As the hon. Lady points out, this disease is not restricted to gynaecology.”
“I am most grateful to my right hon. Friend the Minister for his response; he is outlining a very clear path to improvement. Will the education about endometriosis, polycystic ovary syndrome and so on in key stage 3 take place at the very start of year 7? I am concerned about taking it out of key stage 2, given that girls will have started their menstrual cycles; in the example I gave, the lady said that she was in pain from her very first period. I accept that he might not be able to respond right now, but can I push him on when the Department thinks it will be appropriate? Does it think it appropriate for girls who are getting ready to start their periods, or for girls who have started their periods?”
“I am grateful for the Minister’s response, but—there is always a but—will he specify whether endometriosis will be taught in schools? I cannot dig out whether he said that it will definitely be taught in schools, so I want clarification on that.”
“Clearly, today’s debate has shown that this subject is cross-party. There are no politics in this; it is highly important for young people’s health and the consequences that that will have through their lifetime. I am grateful for the Minister’s response and I am glad to see the curriculum is moving forward. However, he can rest assured that I will still be at his door, nagging to make sure we get exactly what we need to give young people and people the support and education they need throughout their lives. Question put and agreed to. Resolved, That this House has considered endometriosis education in schools.”
“I am proud of the work that I and colleagues across the House did, along with our dear, departed friend Sir David Amess, to raise the issue of endometriosis, a terrible disease that affects millions of women across the country. It is only since we started to raise the issues around it that its profile has risen. I am surprised to learn how many young women do not know about the disease, which is not in the sex and health education curriculum in schools. Can we have a debate, through the Department for Education, on ensuring that gynaecological diseases are in the curriculum for both girls and boys, because if someone does not know a disease exists, how will they know they might have it?”
“I thank my hon. Friend for securing this debate at a crucial time. I do not think it an exaggeration to say that the current situation is a tinderbox and on knife edge, to mix metaphors. The story she has just relayed is important. Does she agree that it illustrates that the nationalistic leaderships who wanted to stir up hatred were in such a minority, because the vast majority of the population of Bosnia and Herzegovina were unaware of their ethnic backgrounds? They saw themselves as Bosnians, and that was exploited by those nationalist tendencies.”
“Everyone is grateful for the service that my right hon. Friend gave to the world. He experienced and witnessed trauma to try to bring about that peace and, in doing so, had to deal with many areas of corruption. Does he believe that a drift away from the big stick has allowed the undermining of the very issues that he says need to be addressed?”
“Friend was a little shy about his role in the country, doing what he could to keep criminality under control. The blunt truth is that too many politicians are playing a very dangerous game in Bosnia, in Republika Srpska and the surrounding area. When it looks as if democracy will threaten their position, they launch into nationalist fervour and push that forward. That is exactly what Dodik did in Republika Srpska: he moved to a relatively moderate position, until it looked as though his position was under threat, and then became far more extreme. It is easy in such a debate to discuss where we are and where things are going. We say that what we did in the war was 30 years ago. I think that sanitises things slightly. I remember watching—it has to be 25 years ago—the BBC drama “Warriors”. I only watched it once, and I was traumatised by it.”
“In 2021, 182,000 people out of a population of 3.2 million left. Ten years ago, there were 300 vacancies in the military, which 7,000 people applied for. Last year, there were 300 applications for 1,000 vacancies. That is a stark change in a decade. Military investment in Bosnia and Herzegovina has stalled at 1% for a decade. That is not enough to maintain the equipment, let alone a force. We then start to see those with corrupt and criminal interests able to get a foothold again—and, more fundamentally, not being worried about any consequences. There is a way that we can turn that around and support Bosnia. It is about, in words that I have used already, the big stick. My right hon. Friend described Paddy Ashdown using that big stick. I think my right hon.”
“Corruption, electoral fraud, the state of law—these are all things that the Government are trying to work on in Bosnia with the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe, but they are not taking major steps forward. There are, however, politicians and parties that are trying to break away from the established corrupt institutions. We will watch the elections with interest over the coming years, especially in Sarajevo, as anti-corruption candidates start to stand. We have a responsibility to support those processes, through organisations that we support, such as the OSCE. My right hon. Friend is absolutely right: brain drain is a massive issue for Bosnia. A country cannot survive and have an economic future if what remains is just the retired population, and those who would serve its best interests are leaving.”
“In the same breath, they say that the country is moving forward, building more solid foundations, and becoming a more trusted partner of international institutions. Where the truth lies between those statements is what we are exploring in today’s debate, but we know that corruption is still rife, and there are too many self-serving interests. In the interests of time, I will not repeat the examples given by my right hon. Friend. He outlined them perfectly, especially the example of the young girl who wanted to start a medical career. The reality is that if someone is not a member of a political party, or cannot pay certain people, they can be caught in a trap.”
“I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Melton (Alicia Kearns), the Chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee, for securing this debate at such a critical time. In November, I was in Sarajevo with the NATO Parliamentary Assembly for a Rose-Roth seminar, which involved a series of lectures and presentations. We got to hear about what was going on from many angles, which led me to the conclusion that I could make one statement saying one thing and another saying the complete opposite. There is a paradox in the country, and the truth of it all depends on one’s perspective. For example, people will say that basically nothing has happened since 2017, and that the country is in a stalemate and is not moving forward in many of the areas my right hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) mentioned.”
“That does not have to happen again. We can, and we need to, take action this day. That is the responsibility of the developed western world. It has responsibility for managing its military, and for the ethics that we apply to stop those who, purely as part of power-grabbing political games, play the nationalistic card, which will lead to murdered civilians. We see that today in Ukraine because we did nothing after Crimea.”
“We now have an opportunity, in that the Minister is here to take these points back to the Foreign Office. I know that Ministers are always constrained in what they can and cannot say at the Dispatch Box, but we have to send a clear message in this debate. History does not have to repeat itself. We do not have to have programmes that I have only ever been able to watch once in my life because I found them too horrific for me, let alone for the many Members of this House who served in Bosnia, or those now in the other place who were Ministers at the time, and had to deal with the consequences. There is ongoing trauma. I have met service personnel, some of whom served under my right hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham, and I have heard and seen the deep distress that they live with to this day, having tried to protect innocent civilians.”
“We’ve got to separate out.” We should be highly concerned about that. What lies behind all that is the arm of Russia. I have heard that Russia is not directly involved. It is not supplying arms; it is not doing some of the things that it has done in other parts of the world, such as Syria and Ukraine. However, the hand of Russia is there, politically and disruptively, and we do not have to look very far to see it. This is a critical moment. My hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Melton and my right hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham used the word “deterrent”. One thing we could do today is take a British battalion, in a NATO-led operation, to those areas, and act as a deterrent. I do not want any forces to have to try to stop the slaughter of innocent civilians.”
“Tragically, in my opinion, Republika Srpska representatives did not turn up to the Rose-Roth seminar of the NATO Parliamentary Assembly in November, apart from one person who very bravely did and got a hell of a lot of pushback for it. Its representatives have been disengaging. That is what I mean when I talk about the dangerous path that they are on. Take the history of the second world war. By about the 1960s, German society started to teach about the holocaust. That was a very important moment; it turned to education to make sure that history could not repeat itself. In Bosnia, however, not only are people not talking about some of the crimes against humanity that took place during the war, but in some of the schools in Republika Srpska, they are actually saying, “It’s lies—it didn’t happen. This the problem.”
“We have to recognise them in this House and never forget. I had the privilege of being the international chairman of the Conservative party for a period. We did a lot of work with the Westminster Foundation for Democracy, a body through which Labour, Liberals and Conservatives work with their sister parties to help build democracies. It was set up after the Cold War. I am proud that I was able to work with three factions from the centre right in Bosnia, to get those right-wing parties around the table, talking and working towards developing a better future. I used to say, “I don’t know whether this will have any long-term effect, but at least I can one day look my maker in the eye and say that I tried.” I had a very tiny part in trying to make peace last, because that is what we have to do.”
“I am more than grateful to my right hon. and gallant Friend for making that point. He is held in high esteem in this House, in Parliament and in the outside world for the role that he played in that operation. I was coming on to say that the reason why I have never been able to watch that programme again is that it was horrific. I was not in the services, and I did not go out to Bosnia. I watched that drama in my very early 20s, and I found it so horrific that even though it has been repeated since, and even though it is excellent, I have not been able to watch it. That must not be forgotten. The hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Richard Foord) outlined some of the horrific scenes that took place—the butchery, the savagery, the hatred that led decent people and neighbours to carry out those acts.”
“I am bringing my comments to a close, and my right hon. Friend has absolutely summarised the point that I am trying to make. I am on the NATO Parliamentary Assembly, I am the chairman of its Defence and Security Committee and I lead the UK delegation. What do we talk about more than anything else? The word “deterrent.” Deterrence has to be better than going in to try stopping a war. We can do this today. My right hon. Friend’s intervention has absolutely summed it up. Minister, if there is one message to take away at the conclusion of the debate, it is that we can prevent horror that could happen very soon—maybe as soon as the end of this week.”
“The hon. Member for Glasgow North (Patrick Grady) also made that point. He was about to sit down so sadly I could not intervene on him. The hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty) is absolutely right about the consequences for the rest of Europe. Dodik is not just talking about Republika Srpska as it stands; he is talking about a greater Republika Srpska, with parts of Serbia, parts of Kosovo, and parts of Montenegro, which is a NATO ally. With Russia’s help to cause disruption—in history, that has happened in similar ways—all of us could easily be dragged into a war if we allow this nationalistic fervour to take the route that he is preaching.”
“I am listening carefully to what my hon. Friend is saying. We must be very careful not to allow recent history to repeat itself. President Obama made it crystal clear that if chemical weapons were dropped in Syria, it would cross a red line and would not be tolerated, but nothing happened. Then Russia walked into Crimea, and nothing happened. Now we have a war in Ukraine. It is all very well saying that we will work through diplomacy and sanctions, but what I am really interested in is saving lives. I do not expect a response now, but I urge my hon. Friend to go back to the Foreign Office and say that this debate has highlighted that normal diplomatic routes are not going to be enough. We need a big stick.”
“I absolutely welcome this very important investment in defence. As my right hon. Friend says, the world is a changed place, and I am sure that he would agree that defence is indeed a public service. On the extra funding and the projects that he has announced, may I ask him to make sure that he says to the Treasury that the programmes should be fully funded? This should not just be capital investment. The Treasury has a habit of saying, “The capital investment is fine, but let’s not worry about revenue.” The projects will need revenue, so will he make sure to have those conversations with the Treasury?”
“I applaud the Government’s efforts to try to sort out the Gibraltar-Spain border. I am sure that I speak for the whole House when I say how encouraged I was by the agreement announced last Friday. However, the EU Commissioner has been contrary on the issues of airport goods and mobility, and we have been given only some detail on the direction of travel in those areas. The Chief Minister of Gibraltar, Fabian Picardo, has gone on record to say that Gibraltar will never be Spanish, a sentiment in which I am sure the whole House will share. In the light of the comments by the EU Commissioner, will my right hon. Friend make time for a debate in the House, in which it can be made clear by all parties that the House will never compromise on British sovereignty on the Rock, or its people’s right to self-determination?”
“On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Earlier, I asked a question relating to Gibraltar, and I feel that it would be remiss of me not to bring the House’s attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests and mention that I visited Gibraltar on behalf of the Gibraltar Government several years ago.”
“Friend to do everything that he can to make sure that the whole of the region recognises that Iran plays a large part in all the suffering that we are seeing in the area.”
“I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on his holistic view of the situation in Israel, Gaza and, of course, Iran. May I say how glad I am that he has categorically said that we will carry on supplying the arms that Israel needs to defend itself, which have been proven to be so vital just this weekend? Does he agree that, in order to try to achieve a sustainable ceasefire, the middle east has to confront the threat that Iran makes? Its direct influence in Yemen is having an impact on shipping through the Red sea. It is having an impact on the war in Sudan. It is having an impact in the war in Gaza, and there is the effect on Israel and surrounding countries such as Lebanon. So I ask my right hon.”
“A lot of points will be made today arguing that responsibility for the ceasefire lies purely with Israel, but that is simply not true. A ceasefire must take place on all sides. Those who want Israel to lay down its arms but do not insist on Hamas laying down theirs are basically saying that Israel does not have the right to ensure that its security is in place. Until Hamas dismantle their terrorist organisation, which threatens the lives of Jewish people, who they do not think should exist—they do not think the state of Israel should exist—we must ensure that any ceasefire is observed by both sides of this coin.”
“May I take this opportunity to also place on record my thanks to the Minister for Armed Forces, my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Wells (James Heappey) for all the work he has done? It was a joy to work with him when I was in the Department. I thank the Minister for Defence Procurement for his procurement review. It is an excellent document, moving forward in a pragmatic way. As part of that review, will he reassess where potential gaps might occur between old platforms being retired and new platforms being delayed? Does he agree that housing procurement—accommodation for our armed forces—is as much an operational capability as a tank?”
“As he has said, people should be careful what they believe, but what can people believe in unless there are robust systems to call out what is absolutely fake?”
“I am proud to have the British Library at Boston Spa in my constituency, and I will be meeting it in a week’s time to talk about the cyber-attack. That is just one aspect of what has happened recently, but we are talking about the protection of democracy as well, and the timeframes on which we are moving on some issues does concern me. One of the big concerns will be deepfake news profiles—with people alleged to have said things, and videos of people allegedly doing things—at the next election. I urge my right hon. Friend to work now to try to establish procedures so that everybody across this House will be able to call out efficiently the fake news that may be used to try to influence the election.”
“Long before I was elected, it had been identified that in the east direction, the Leeds to Selby railway line had only a footbridge, which restricted access for so many people. Will my hon. Friend join me in welcoming the construction taking place on the Access for All bridge in Garforth? It shows that Conservative MPs working with Conservative Governments improve rail services for all constituents.”
“I am glad that my right hon. Friend has mentioned accommodation, on which I focused after succeeding him as Minister for Defence Procurement. Does he agree that accommodation is as much a part of operational capability as hardware in the battlefield?”
“I am listening carefully to what the hon. Lady is saying. I have not cast my eye over the report she is speaking about. She talks about the Government or the MOD trimming projects. The lessons of George Osborne slashing the number of Type 45s in half have had a huge impact on naval capability, and of course we have more than 530 Ajax tanks to come. When we say that we must make savings, are we talking about a false economy? In the long run, it is far better to increase the GDP spend than to slash projects and totally undermine how the defence programme was originally laid out.”
“A recent meeting of the NATO Parliamentary Assembly that I attended assessed that it would need to be an increase of 5% of GDP on top of current spend, were the Americans to pull out.”
“If we say that is cancelled out, because of the attitude of China and Russian allies towards Russia were it to use one, then we have to accept that our conventional weapons are not going to counterbalance Russia and what is happening. Nobody in this Chamber, in the military, at the MOD or in Europe, and probably anywhere in the western world, wants to go to war and see death and destruction on the scale we are seeing in too many areas of the world. We see famine and humanitarian crises taking place. Yes, we are going to have to spend more money, but we need to spend it more efficiently, and we need to make sure that when the increases come they will be used effectively. We need to remember that this is an investment so that we do not have to use the deterrent.”
“Forget the spending to fight the war; the loss in GDP of being able run an economy and export when at war is significantly bigger than an increase of 2% or 3%. Be under no illusion: if Putin wants to invade NATO territory, it will not be tanks rolling over the line up in the Baltics or maybe in east Poland, and we will have to go out there; it will be a full-scale NATO attack, and we will have to work out what we do. The best way we can stop that is to make sure we have the deterrent. Our nuclear deterrent has always been valuable because they have no idea when or where we would strike back from. That has made it a useless weapon to use, but we have to have that weapon.”
“The honest fact that we are not going to cut health services or the DWP—some of our biggest spending budgets—and spend the money on defence means that we have to work with what we have. Yes, we can grow the economy and take more tax revenue. We can do all that, but that has not really happened in the 21st century. The 21st century has roughly been 50/50 between the Government and the Opposition. Even when the economy has grown, it has been around the margins. There has to be an honest conversation. The procurement strategy my hon. Friend the Minister has produced is the right way forward. We are aware of the costs. I will say one more thing, almost directly contradicting myself. The war in Ukraine has shattered its economy.”