Karl Turner
MP for Kingston upon Hull East · Independent · United Kingdom
“I will call Tom Hayes to move the motion; I will then call the Minister to respond. I remind other Members that they may make a speech only with prior permission from the Member in charge of the debate and from the Minister. As is the convention for a 30-minute debate, there will not be an opportunity for the Member in charge to wind up.”
“From 1997, the Prime Minister campaigned to scrap single-judge trials in Northern Ireland, yet when I opposed his Government’s plan to bring in single-judge trials in England and Wales, I received hostile briefings and smears about my mental health from the lads in No. 10 Downing Street.”
“It must be absolutely exhausting for the Justice Secretary to hold on to an idea that only he still pretends is a good one. The Mayor of London is opposed to these changes and has tried to persuade the Justice Secretary to bin them. The Mayor of Greater Manchester is opposed to this ludicrous idea.”
“Richard Foord will move the motion. I will then call the Minster to respond. I remind Members that they may make a speech only with the prior permission of the Member in charge of the debate and the Minister. There will not be an opportunity for the Member in charge to wind up, as is the convention for a 30-minute debate.”
“Where I think the Prime Minister went wrong was in the shenanigans between those two points: looking around for an excuse for why it had gone wrong. “Just take it on the chin—deal with it!” That is the advice I would have given him, and that is why I am particularly disappointed.”
“It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Goole and Pocklington (David Davis). He and I rarely agree politically, but we do work together constructively in our constituencies for the betterment of the region.”
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“That would give the public confidence that, although the numbers of non-jury trials are small, the direction of travel is to establish ways in which they will not be needed at all in future. We would welcome that outline from the Minister.”
“That is why Labour strongly welcome the recommendations of the independent reviewer, first for the Northern Ireland Office to set up a working party of those involved in the criminal justice system to consider whether there are practical measures that could be taken to minimise any risk to the administration of justice. I welcome the Minister’s assurance that that will begin. Secondly, the independent reviewer recommends that in marginal cases that could go either way, the DPP should consider not issuing a certificate when the very low threshold is only just met, possibly in conjunction with juror protection measures. Can the Minister outline the programme for taking forward those recommendations, given it is now some years since they were made? Will he give a commitment to the Committee as to when those recommendations will be acted on?”
“There were only 11 cases out of 1,403 during the reporting period, and as in previous years the cases involved defendants who had been members or at least associates of a number of proscribed organisations across the political divide. The figures reveal the way in which the trials are utilised; the report of the independent reviewer is clear that the statutory tests for such a trial were dealt with in a thorough and professional way. Both the small number of cases and the conduct of authorities in that small number of referrals are clearly encouraging evidence of the reticence in their use. Yet in liberal democracy, it is clear that 11 non-jury trials are 11 too many, particularly where they involve cases of significant public interest.”
“It is no coincidence that recent violence has flared in areas of profound deprivation, where educational attainment is too low and, sadly, paramilitary activity, 23 years on from the agreement, is still far too high. The shocking but thankfully foiled attack on a police officer and a young child in Dungiven demonstrated the lengths that those who wish to drag Northern Ireland back to the past are prepared to go in order to carry out their despicable agenda. There was evidence within the consultation responses of ongoing jury tampering and the potential for jury bias as a result of the impact of the perceived threats to jurors. The Labour Opposition reluctantly support the provisions and acknowledge that only a tiny number of cases are now dealt with in this way—the Minister said under 2%.”
“I do not intend to delay the Committee too long, but it is important to reiterate in the beginning that the provisions renewed under this statutory instrument were designed to be temporary, as the Minister clearly set out in his opening remarks. All of us clearly hope that there would be no necessity for non-jury trials, but we understand that the environment in which the judicial system is operating in Northern Ireland, greatly changed though it is, still in exceptional instances necessitates their use. My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Louise Haigh), the shadow Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, has spoken in the House about the controlling influence of paramilitaries.”
“This Government are responsible for over 40,000 needless deaths from covid-19 in care homes. A plan to fix social care in this country is long overdue. This crisis is not new—people are routinely forced to sell the family home to pay for care. The workers are paid peanuts, while the 13 million unpaid carers are left to pick up the pieces. Does the Minister agree that we have had far too many vague promises and that unpaid carers cannot wait a minute longer?”
“Friend, “Listen, don’t worry, we are doing the preparation now for the negotiations to start next year.” We need to get a grip now. We need to take back control. That is what we need to do, and if we cannot get the answer we need for those men and women—those 100 crew members —we need to be speaking to the Treasury about compensation. Get a grip.”
“The people of Hull are very proud of Big Lil. It is true that the industry has been in decline for decades, but the Kirkella provided a safe fishing future so that lads and lasses in schools in my constituency and that of my hon. Friend could plan a fishing career where they would earn a good living and have proud employment. They have been let down by this Government. This is not about leave versus remain or left versus right; it is about what is right and what is wrong. We are not arguing about fishing rights that we got as members of the European Union. The fishing rights we are talking about are those that we had long before we joined the European Union in 1974, so it is simply not good enough, Minister, to say to me and my hon.”
“I do not intend to detain the House for very long. I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Emma Hardy) for securing this incredibly important debate, and to the Minister for indicating to me that she is content for me to take a little of her time. We have a proud history in Hull and a proud heritage of fishing, but historically it was dangerous work. It would be wrong of me not to briefly mention Big Lil Bilocca, because if she were here, she would have something to say to the Minister. It is true that, following the triple trawler disaster and tragedy, Big Lil campaigned with men and women in Hull to improve the safety standards of fishermen at sea, and also the terms and conditions of those hard-working men. She campaigned with my predecessor, Lord Prescott.”
“Is the Minister suggesting that those fishermen and women should transfer to doing factory work onshore? Is that the alternative the Minister is offering?”
“I thank the Minister for finally recognising the need to make this a statutory inquiry. As he knows full well, at every turn the Post Office has done everything it can possibly do to defend the indefensible. The inequality of arms in terms of legal representation has enabled these persecutions of innocent hard-working men and women. What discussions has he had with the Treasury for funds to be put aside to ensure that these innocent victims get fair and equal representation in this now statutory inquiry?”
“My hon. Friend the Member for Stockport (Navendu Mishra) is spot on, is he not? The Government must address the vast deserts where no legal aid providers exist. The disabled and vulnerable in most of England and Wales have been denied access to justice due to the Government’s inaction. How can the Minister possibly justify a situation where 37 million people in Stockport, Hull and across the rest of England and Wales do not have access to a community care legal aid provider? He talks tough, he promises all sorts; he does nothing. Get on with it!”
“I was present in the Court of Appeal on Friday for their lordships’ judgement and the formal exoneration of those innocent former sub-postmasters. Millions of pounds of taxpayers’ money has been wasted on pursuing unnecessary and unjust prosecutions. When will the Government order Post Office Ltd to call off its lawyers, who have been instructed to search desperately for a defence to the indefensible?”
“In a recent Conservative party political broadcast, the Home Secretary claimed that only Conservative police and crime commissioners are responsible for increasing police officer numbers, yet Humberside’s police and crime commissioner, Keith Hunter, has put well over 500 additional officers on our streets since 2016—the largest proportional increase in the country—and was doing so well before the Government pledged to reverse their own cuts. Will the Prime Minister take this opportunity to do the decent thing: correct the record and congratulate Keith Hunter on taking Humberside police from the worst-performing force to one of the best in his time as police and crime commissioner?”
“We need a full parliamentary inquiry to get to the bottom of this scandal—an inquiry with power and teeth that will give taxpayers and the many thousands of people whose livelihoods are at risk because of Greensill’s collapse the explanations and the justice that they fully deserve. Those with nothing to hide would have nothing to fear. Government Members need to think long and hard about which way to vote today. Will they vote to sweep all this under the carpet in the hope that things will just move on, or will they do the decent thing, put standards in public life in this country before their party’s interest, and vote for transparency and fairness? I sincerely hope that we see some backbone from Government MPs when the Division bell rings.”
“Many small businesses in Hull have had to fight tooth and nail to access financial support during the pandemic, so it is insulting that corporations that can afford a former Prime Minister on the payroll can have cosy fireside chats with those at the very top of Government. My constituents in east Hull expect better. They expect, whatever party is in power, that the Government should be run on the principles of honesty, decency and commitment to public service—not government by WhatsApp and billions of pounds of public money dished out to the Tory party’s friends and donors. That is why we cannot allow the Government to mark their own homework through a whitewash review whose findings we know before it has even begun.”
“I do not intend to detain the House for very long, as I know that many of my colleagues want to speak in this very important debate, and for very good reason. The revelations reported in the press these past weeks of private messages between the Chancellor and the former Prime Minister David Cameron, private drinks between Mr Greensill and the Health Secretary, and a private network of connections between favoured businesses and Government Ministers are an absolute disgrace and a scandal. Sadly, they are just the tip of the iceberg of the cronyism and sleaze that are rife in the Conservative party, which it has now allowed into the heart of our Government.”
“I thank the Minister for her answer, but she will not be surprised to know that taxpayers in east Hull expect Government contracts to be awarded responsibly and fairly, and not with a nod and a wink and a text message between Secretaries of State and pub landlords. Does she want to say something about that to my constituents and perhaps apologise?”
“The independent criminal legal aid review is a once-in-a-decade opportunity to fix a vital element of our criminal justice system. There are more than 400 fewer criminal legal aid firms today than in 2015. That means that more than one in four has left the system. When these firms fold, legal aid family law departments often go with them, leaving domestic abuse victims without representation. Does the Secretary of State agree that the Government cannot simply wait for the recommendations of CLAR before taking action and that we must make sure that the number of unrepresented domestic abuse victims does not increase yet further?”
“We have, on average, over 20,000 new covid infections each day and, tragically, more than 1,000 deaths, so how can the Minister possibly justify allowing bailiffs to crack on with business as usual in the midst of this deadly pandemic?”
“After questioning the Prime Minister last week, I am delighted that the first community pharmacies are now taking part in the vaccine roll-out, but just a few hundred of approximately 11,000 community pharmacies just does not seem enough—it is a tiny proportion, leaving vast potential untapped. Will the Secretary of State commit to ensuring that all General Pharmaceutical Council-registered technicians will be allowed to administer vaccines, so that they are available where they are most needed, on every high street, in every community such as mine in east Hull? Witham pharmacy is ready and willing to start vaccinating now—let us get on with it.”
“Many children’s nurseries in east Hull face severe financial difficulty from years of underfunding, and from exclusion from support during this pandemic. The Minister knows that childcare providers in disadvantaged areas such as east Hull are the most likely to close, and that that would be catastrophic for many young children, whose life chances are shaped by early education. Can she guarantee that we will not lose essential childcare places in less well-off areas such as east Hull as a result of covid-19?”
“I join my right hon. and learned Friend the Leader of the Opposition in paying tribute to those involved in the vaccine roll-out. However, the Yorkshire Post highlighted this week that many of the country’s 11,000 community pharmacies stand ready, willing and able to deliver desperately needed covid vaccines, yet the Prime Minister’s Government have seemingly shunned an army of fully trained, experienced and registered technicians. Pharmacies such as Witham pharmacy in east Hull are at the forefront of the flu vaccine every single winter and are ready to play their part in the national effort, so will the Prime Minister now take control, fully mobilise the skills and expertise of community pharmacies and get Britain vaccinated?”
“The lead-up to Christmas is the busiest period for hospitality businesses, with some pubs in my constituency making up to a quarter of their annual profits, which are now lost. If measures to control the virus are to be effective, they must go hand in hand with proper business support. To protect lives and livelihoods, what will the Secretary of State do to ensure that businesses forming the backbone of my communities in Hull get the financial support they desperately need?”
“The loss of a critical element of UK freight capacity in P&O’s Hull to Zeebrugge route will not only be a devastating blow to jobs and trade in my constituency, but as it is one of the most direct routes between Pfizer’s Belgian factory and hard-hit areas in the north of England, that could have a severe impact on the rapid roll-out of the covid vaccine, which I am delighted to see has been approved for use this week. I wrote to the Secretary of State recently on this issue. What action are Ministers taking to ensure that P&O honours its commitments and that this vital route is maintained?”
“As you know, Mr Speaker, east Hull has been one of the areas hardest hit by the pandemic, and our schools have faced massive disruption. I thank my school leaders, teachers and support staff for performing what has been a near miracle in keeping schools going, but the support from the Government has been derisory up to now. What regionally targeted measures will the Secretary of State be implementing to make sure that areas such as mine are not left behind?”
“As you know, Mr Speaker, we have a public health emergency in Hull, with the highest covid infection rate in the country, but my city is being left in the dark with no contact from Ministers and we are being hung out to dry without any additional financial support. Could we please have a statement on why no Government Minister has picked up the phone to our council leader, Councillor Stephen Brady?”
“May I offer you, Mr Speaker, belated congratulations on having been elected Speaker one year ago yesterday? I pay tribute to you for the work that you have always done to promote rugby league at all levels. I am very grateful to the Sports Minister for his helpful engagement with me about rugby league, but it is very unlikely that fans will be back in stadiums for some time, so can the Secretary of State offer more financial support to ensure that we do not lose clubs, such as Hull Kingston Rovers and Hull FC, both of which are incredibly important to our city?”
“Equality before the law is a fundamental right, but for the vast majority of people in the country who are not eligible for legal aid, that right does not actually exist. Facing a difficult winter, even greater numbers will find themselves trapped in the justice gap of being forced to choose between legal representation and the basic essentials, as 94% of working single parents—mainly women—already do. What is the Minister going to do to ensure that the rights that we hold dear actually exist in practice?”
“I thank the Secretary of State and the Minister for their helpful engagement with me over P&O ferries threatening to scrap the Hull to Zeebrugge route. International shipping routes are critical to our economic future yet P&O is threatening to walk away. Does the Minister agree that the time has now come for the company to be told to invest in our area, step up and, instead of paying millions to its Dubai owners, put something into our local economy?”
“Schools in my constituency are having to close, disrupting children’s education and the work of their parents. Serco’s test and trace has been an unmitigated disaster. It is more than an extraordinary waste of public money; it is a public health crisis. To make matters worse, Ministers signed off a wholly inappropriate Excel spreadsheet, blowing billions and leaving thousands of contacts untraced. When I asked the Secretary of State last week when he was going to take personal responsibility, he simply boasted that the system was working brilliantly. When does the Minister think her boss, the Secretary of State, will begin to take personal responsibility for this fiasco?”
“Over six months into the pandemic, people in my constituency still see no sign of the world-beating test and trace system that they were promised. Does the Secretary of State feel any personal responsibility for the utter chaos that is putting lives and livelihoods at risk in my constituency and across the country?”
“I am very worried because unemployment in east Hull is already at 10%—and it is rising. We cannot possibly wait for vital opportunities to retrain and reskill. Having left school with few qualifications myself before returning to education, I know the value of the last Labour Government’s lifelong learning agenda. If the Secretary of State really understands the urgency of the situation, why is he waiting seven months, until April next year, for any of that new money to come through? It is too little, too late.”
“Again, we have heard warm words from the Dispatch Box. I am sorry to have to spoil the Justice Secretary’s birthday, but the truth is this: the Government simply have not got to grips with the crisis in legal aid, and those on the front line of our criminal justice system know it. Nearly two years on from the announcement of a criminal legal aid review, the plan for accelerated items has only just been published. That sticking plaster might just have sufficed before covid, but for a justice system already on its knees, it is woefully insufficient, and victims, defendants and practitioners alike are paying the price. Will the Minister put a stop to the dither and delay, recognise the urgency of the situation and commit himself to expediting the remaining stages, or at the very least come up with a realistic timetable?”
“The job retention scheme has clearly helped businesses right across our economy, including in the maritime industries of port constituencies such as mine in east Hull, but when it is clear that the shipping and ferry sectors may take years to recover, the Chancellor is casting jobs in east Hull adrift by ending the furlough scheme, with no replacement and no plan. What action is the Minister taking to ensure that British seafarers, who have kept this country afloat throughout the pandemic, do not bear the brunt of that short-sighted decision? Will he please assure me that the UK will retain the maritime skills base that is vital for our future?”
“Legal aid lawyers are being asked, yet again, to carry the can for a decade of mismanagement on the part of successive Tory Ministers. Lawyers are now expected to work extended hours for no extra pay to clear the half a million backlog of criminal cases caused by savage cuts. Legal aid lawyers do not support extended or flexible operating hours, but why would they? Their patience and good will have been stretched too far. Ministers know full well that the underfunded justice system means justice denied, so what—if any—representations has the Justice Secretary made to the Treasury for more funding; or is it simply that he just does not care?”
“P&O Ferries, which is owned by the Government of Dubai, has pocketed millions from the British taxpayer during the covid crisis. It is now intending to make British seafarers redundant and replace them with low-paid, badly treated Filipino crews, because it says that the routes are not viable when using British seafarers. The Secretary of State told the Transport Committee that there is nothing he can do because his hands are tied by international agreement. It is not good enough. Will the Minister commit to levelling up employment conditions to prevent the likes of P&O from destroying seafarer jobs, and to unleash the potential of this brilliant maritime city of Hull?”
“We only need to get into next year and then the industry will absolutely be booming once again. My wife mentioned to me earlier today that she does not intend going abroad on holiday for quite some time, and it is true that staycations are going to be the thing in the next year or two. So, Minister, I finish with a plea—”
“The frank truth is that we simply cannot afford to lose these incredibly good, well-paid, skilled manufacturing jobs in our region. As my hon. Friend has said, 90% of all static caravans are manufactured in Hull and the East Riding, 50% of all tourer caravans are manufactured in our area, and 30% of all motor homes as well. We have got not much of an ask for the Minister. We need support, and we are very grateful to the Government for the support and the interventions they have made already, but we need that flexibility in the job retention scheme to be extended for this unique and specific industry, and we need the Government to think carefully about the business rate relief grants as well. We will get over this, with support from the Government.”
“I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Emma Hardy) on securing this incredibly important debate. I want to reiterate some of the points she made. We are incredibly proud of the caravan manufacturing industry in our neck of the woods. Those jobs are incredibly good jobs and they pay very well. In 2008-09, despite the previous Labour Government’s interventions to mitigate the damage from the economic crash, we saw tens of thousands of job losses in our region. The reality is this: most of those jobs have not been replaced. We have had investment from Siemens, and a massive £350 million investment in offshore wind turbine manufacturing, which we are incredibly grateful for as well, but the reality is that once those jobs are lost, we often never see them replaced.”
“Madam Deputy Speaker, you are absolutely right of course, and I take your advice on board, and apologise indeed. Madam Deputy Speaker, I finish, as I was saying, on a plea to the Minister: if the Government support us now, that will be repaid tenfold in this manufacturing industry. Thank you very much indeed, Madam Deputy Speaker.”
“I am very grateful to the Minister for giving way. I do not expect an answer on the two chief asks immediately, because the Minister will, of course, have to make representations to the Treasury. None the less, will he be prepared to meet the National Caravan Council and perhaps some of the manufacturers to discuss those specific asks?”
“Many hundreds of postmasters were forced to pay back many thousands of pounds to the Post Office—moneys that were never in fact owed or, indeed, missing. That in itself should trigger a criminal investigation. How much of that money went to pay the previous chief executive’s £5 million salary, and why can the Minister not accept that only a judge will get to the bottom of this miscarriage of justice?”
“Legal aid lawyers, often doing the most complex cases, are already struggling for their financial survival, but the Justice Secretary now plans to pile on more pressure through reforms of fixed fees in immigration and asylum appeal cases. He knows that this change means that lawyers will be forced to do more for an awful lot less or will simply walk away, so will he acknowledge that this ploy, pretending to give with one hand but snatching far more away with the other, will further drive lawyers away from representing the most vulnerable people? Will he now commit to working constructively with those professions to find a better and fairer alternative?.”
“There is a lot of rivalry in rugby league, especially in Hull, where we are blessed to have two super league teams: Hull FC and Hull Kingston Rovers. It is clear that rugby league clubs need a special scheme of support. I spoke with both clubs’ chairmen yesterday evening, and they are very worried about the survival of their clubs as a result of covid-19. Can we have a statement from a Minister on what plans there are to financially support rugby league clubs at this incredibly worrying time, so that they can survive not to next week, next month or next year, but for the next 125 years?”
“There was bullying, aggression, and constant lies from the very beginning—lie after lie after lie. I have read Mr Justice Fraser’s judgment—it is a pleasure to read—and to someone reading the judgment it is clear that lies were constantly told. I am prepared to accept that Ministers and Government officials were misled from the very top of the Post Office and Fujitsu. What do we do now to put matters right?”
“Since I have been involved in representing victims of this scandal, I have been contacted by other sub-postmasters, and a few days ago I received some startling documents. In 2006, a sub-postmaster was prosecuted. I have documents showing discussions between lawyers within the Post Office conceding that there was no theft, no dishonesty, no fraud and no false accounting in this case, yet she was prosecuted. It is utterly disgusting. When this person found out that these documents existed, because they had been leaked to her, she asked the Post Office whether they would produce the documents to the Criminal Cases Review Commission and she was met with aggression the likes of which I have never seen. She was told that these documents were privileged and that if they were leaked she could be in serious trouble.”
“Because she would have said, “I didn’t do anything.” When she was asked if she was sorry, she would have said, “No, I am not sorry because I do not think I have done anything wrong.” I did not represent her at the sentencing hearing as it happens, but when she was sentenced, the judge would have questioned whether she was likely to commit further offences because she had admitted no culpability whatever and she was not sorry. She was not sorry because she had done nothing wrong. We now know that she should not have been investigated, she should not have been interviewed and she certainly should not have been prosecuted. We now know that she should not have pleaded guilty to false accounting and that she certainly should not have gone to prison for nine months.”
“You ring the emergency services, you explain the situation and you are advised to smash a window to escape the building. Once you have, you are eventually prosecuted for criminal damage. That is the scenario. It is not a perfect analogy, certainly not for a criminal lawyer, because there is an inbuilt defence in criminal damage of reasonable excuse. Janet Skinner was of good character, with no previous convictions. She reminded me recently that she had never even had so much as a parking ticket to her name. But if she had sat down with a probation officer for pre-sentence report, it was clear it would not be a good one. Why?”
“It was probably a conference that would have lasted no more than 20 minutes, but I remember her instructions and, indeed, she has reminded me of them since. She could not understand why she was being accused of dishonesty. When she explained the situation to me, it was clear that what she had committed, if anything, was the offence of false accounting. Why? Because when her books did not balance, she would ring the helpline and it would tell her—and other sub-postmasters and mistresses—off the record, “You just need to make the books balance.” Effectively, they were told to make up numbers. The helpline said, “Put the information in, then you can close the system down for the night and trade the next day.” That was utterly disgusting. My analogy is that it is like being trapped in a burning building.”