John Glen
MP for Salisbury · Conservative · United Kingdom
“I welcome the Chief Secretary to her new position, but what words of comfort could she give the residents of Salisbury in Wiltshire, a unitary authority? We are not part of a combined authority and we do not have a metro mayor.”
“Sam Moody is my constituent. He is the chief executive of Rockhopper. During my time in this House, he has been absolutely scrupulous in following the laws of this country and respecting the Falkland Islanders.”
“I listened carefully to what the Minister said about the process, and I respect that. But most people who take a pretty level-headed, pragmatic view of the need for a transition over time still cannot get their heads around the short-term reality: when we have so much turmoil in the middle east, why would we extend the time that we are no…”
“It is 55 days till the Budget. Given the market’s reaction to the Prime Minister’s statement on Tuesday, and given that our gilt rates are higher than those of our peers in the G7, could we have a debate on the implications of higher taxes for growth?”
“Before the hon. Lady makes her statement on Thursday, will she, when reflecting on the arrangement in Wiltshire that would embrace Wessex—although we have been told that that is not the Government’s view—address the prevailing concern that the people of rural Wiltshire will be considerably worse off without having the opportunity to embra…”
“I recognise that the Minister wants to come to what the Government are going to do, but does he not accept that the decisions already made in the last two years—with respect to the price of employment and the national living wage, the cost of employment with regard to legislation, and business rates—have depressed the appetite of many sma…”
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“Further to that answer, will the Minister confirm that one of the regulatory barriers in that area are privacy and electronic communications regulations, which prevent firms from proactively reaching out to customers to offer targeted support? As part of the review, will she ensure that that specific regulatory change is made, so that that can happen?”
“I do not think it is holistic, goes far enough or deals with the profound tragedy that has happened to our benefits system as a consequence of covid and our public finances.”
“When I reflect on the changes proposed today, I can see the hand of the Treasury. I can see the fiscal imperative. I can see the public finances and what is now likely to happen in the autumn, which will mean more tax rises. Now, for some on the Government Benches that will be a price worth paying, but we as a country will lack the productive capacity to grow if we tax those who create jobs to a level where they just will not create jobs any further. We have to come to terms with that profound reality; if we do not, we are in a death spiral as a country. I give credit to the Government for some of the steps they are taking today. However, for reasons different from those stated by many on the Government Benches, I will not be able to support the Bill.”
“About 12 or 14 years ago in this House, we had a debate about mental health. Several Members of Parliament stood up and bravely talked about their own mental health challenges. We then went on a journey to bring parity of esteem to mental health and physical health in our benefits system. I believe that that pathway into assessment for mental health has not worked. It writes people off too easily and it does not serve them well, by leaving them in a place where they are, on an enduring basis, reliant on the state. As a country, we cannot afford it. It is time to legislate for more resilience: resilience in our country and in those who receive benefits such that they can get out of that place of dependency, because I do not think it is a happy place for anyone to be.”
“The vast majority of my constituents and the vast majority of people in the country cannot understand how those numbers have doubled in such a short amount of time. I fully respect the aspirations of the Secretary of State and her ministerial team in seeking to address that, because we have to come to terms with what we can afford as a country. I also respect sincerely the remarks of the previous speaker, the hon. Member for Liverpool Walton (Dan Carden), whose constituency is rather different from mine, because I think we are united in this place in wanting to look after the most vulnerable. I want to see those who are suffering, who are disabled and who need support from the state to receive that support in a timely way. What I do not want to see is people written off permanently.”
“I was in government for seven years and I was in the Treasury for most of that time. During the covid epidemic, we had to make some pretty quick changes while the economy was shut down overnight. They involved changes to benefits, standing up a furlough scheme very quickly, bounce back loans and many interventions to try to keep our public services going, and they were at the core of some of the patterns of behavioural change that we now see in our benefits system. I was looking at the numbers for my constituency, which I recognise is a wonderful place and also quite a wealthy place that does not have some of the embedded challenges in other parts of the country. The number of PIP claims in January 2019 was 2,065 and in April 2025 it was 4,211.”
“I wanted to speak in this debate to try to get behind some of the headlines and challenges that those on the Government Benches face in getting to a settled view today, by looking back over the last years the Conservatives had in government at some of the lessons that we must draw from that experience but which are relevant to consider today. I will not be able to support the proposals, not because I do not think some of them have significant merit, or because I do not have the greatest respect for the Minister for Social Security and Disability, who has spent 31 years in this place and who I believe will do all that is asked of him, but because I do not think that the changes in the Bill are sufficiently ambitious to deal with the scale of the challenges we face.”
“I reciprocate the hon. Lady’s warm sentiments. She makes her political points, some of which will be true in some circumstances, and some of which will not. My point today to everyone in this House is this: let us be real, honest and true about the trajectory of growth in welfare spending in this country, and let us be honest about what we can afford. We face a transformed landscape of threats to this country, with calls for more spending on defence. We have to address our priorities, but we must also recognise that the most vulnerable need continued support. However, the system we have brings too many into dependency on the state, and that is not right.”
“Infantry regiments cite difficulty in recruiting in their traditional communities and recruitment grounds. Further to the exchange between the Secretary of State and the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell (Helen Maguire), may I ask what more can be done to encourage, specifically, young British men to join the Army?”
“I think that the vast majority of people in this country believe in a welfare system that is compassionate to the vulnerable, and particularly to the disabled, but they can no longer understand why so many people here—in contrast to other similar countries—are in this situation where they are not working.”
“Yes, we were in power for 14 years, and during covid, when I was a Minister, we made decisions such as stopping face-to-face assessments because we could not do them. We all recognise that the recovery from that covid time has not gone as well as it should, but if the Secretary of State cannot deliver a shift in the numbers, the economy will be in a death spiral. She needs to recognise that these changes need to be reset radically to meet the country’s expectations.”
“Somebody did not follow that guidance, and I think the country expects people to be held individually to account for why they failed to do their job properly.”
“I thank the Secretary of State for her statement—I agree with practically everything she has said. When I heard these reports, I thought of the Mayor of Wilton, Councillor Alexandra Boyd, who is Jewish, and about what it would have felt like for her to have watched that with her family. We in this place all understand the fine editorial judgments that BBC staff have to make, but this is of a completely different order. When people are losing faith in the great institutions of this country, I urge the Secretary of State in her follow-up conversations to ensure that the BBC identifies accountability to individuals. My hon. Friend the Member for Gosport (Dame Caroline Dinenage) set out clearly the guidance that exists.”
“It is rare but very encouraging when a constituent comes into a surgery with some solutions. A couple of months ago, Elizabeth Cordle came into my surgery to talk about Corefulness, which is a series of short, simple, evidence-based exercise programmes to mature essential movement skills and help improve a child’s readiness to learn and break down barriers to learning. She is uncertain on how exactly it could be applied to assist with SEND, but she is absolutely clear that, through the national roll-out that she is leading, it has enormous potential. Will the Minister to engage with me and Elizabeth, so that as the strategy is being developed, we can examine whether that programme has a wider application?”
“Schedule 2 says: “The Commissioner must make appointments to a list of persons eligible to sit as members of panels.” I have absolutely no doubt that the commissioner will be someone of great integrity and experience, but he or she will certainly be a strong advocate of assisted dying, as will those who put themselves forward for the panels. That may create an impression that the VAD commission is a self-selecting group with a particular set of institutional views. If the system is to command public confidence, I believe that appointments would be best administered by an external body, and the Judicial Appointments Commission is the obvious choice. We in this country trust the judiciary, partly because we know that they represent no set of opinions.”
“My amendments would mean that we do not have to choose between the two: the panel is part of the Bill, but we can have a better panel if we give it some of the features of the High Court, namely its independence, the calibre of its judges, and its powers as a court. Amendment 82 would require all panel members to be appointed by the Judicial Appointments Commission, which nominates judges in England and Wales. Currently, the selection of panel members is wholly down to the voluntary assisted dying commissioner.”
“I am grateful to have my first opportunity to contribute on this Bill. It would not be appropriate to dilate on my profound anxieties about it, but I approach these amendments in the spirit of constructive engagement. I rise to speak to linked amendments 82 to 86, which would strengthen the panel by giving it some of the features of the High Court safeguard that was, regrettably, removed. We heard from the hon. Member for Spen Valley (Kim Leadbeater) that the panel will now be stronger because it includes a broader range of expertise. The argument against that, of course, is that the High Court was a stronger safeguard because it has the powers of a court and the independence of the judiciary.”
“It will not surprise my hon. Friend to hear that I agree wholeheartedly. I recognise that that was a major reason that many colleagues gave at earlier points in our discussions and deliberations.”
“If we are saying that an 80-year-old retired judge is still with it and is able to decide on matters of life and death, why are they too old to help clear the backlog of criminal cases? That seems to be a meaningful anomaly. I have been very clear about the purpose of my amendments. I have tabled them in the spirit of trying to strengthen the Bill and return it to what was intended, so that it can meet the expectations of so many Members who supported it at an earlier point.”
“Under these amendments, all High Court judges would be automatically eligible. They would need to be currently serving or at least be below retirement age, and would have to be a judge of the highest authority and not a deputy judge. Members of this House and the public were originally told that this would be a safe Bill precisely because it would have a High Court judge. That was a persuasive promise, and I think there is a way to honour it, even in the new version of the Bill. I will briefly mention the retirement age, because it is important. It used to be 70, but judges can now continue until they are 75. However, there is no age limit for members of the panel.”
“All appointments to the mental health tribunal, including the non-legal members, are made by the Judicial Appointments Commission, so this would not be a novel function for it. Let me move on to amendment 85, which would ensure that all members of the panel have to take the judicial oath if they have not done so already. If other amendments pass, amendment 85 would be necessary only for the non-legal members, and it is crucial for public confidence that the judicial oath is taken. Amendments 83 and 84 seek to preserve an important element of the Bill as originally presented to the House. They would ensure that the most senior decision-making figure, the chair of the panel, is a High Court judge with all the experience, responsibility and professionalism that that implies.”
“I have been very clear that I have tabled my amendments in a constructive way to reflect the will that the hon. Lady has expressed, but to recognise the meaningful dilution in the authority of the process and what can reasonably be amended to invigorate it, based on the principles that I think were intended at the outset. I will revert to the point I was making about the judiciary. They have a commitment to uphold the law, and that should be the standard we are looking for when it comes to matters of life and death. The Judicial Appointments Commission already conducts appointments for all tribunals, including lay members. The Government’s impact assessment compared the panel to the mental health tribunal.”
“The chief executive of the Bath, Swindon and Wiltshire hospitals group tells me that a national approach to AI would be hugely welcome to unlock the delivery of radiology, pathology, clinical administration and risk stratification in a much more effective way. We have to level with our constituents that services cannot all be delivered at the local hospital if we are going to have the best service and the appropriate aggregation. I urge the Minister to address the issue of digital systems. How can we bring them to a different level and deal with demand management? Demand is outstripping supply, and we have to look at investment in public health. To that end, I urge her not to move most of the Porton Down campus to Harlow, which would save a considerable sum of money that we could use in the south-west.”
“It is a pleasure to contribute to the debate, Dr Huq. In every Budget that I have seen over the past 15 years, either as a Treasury Minister or as a constituency MP, more money—whether it is 1%, 2% or 3% more—has gone into the NHS, yet there is still a demand for even more money at the next fiscal event. In the south-west, there are 5.7 million people, 30% of whom live in rural areas. We will always have limited resources, so we have to be radical in organising them differently. I urge the Minister to look at not just how we deal with care based on the physical location of acute hospitals, but how we deliver more localised digital care and investment in relevant digital infrastructure.”
“Is it going to move to Harlow, at massive expense—six times the original estimate—and 15 years later than was estimated, or can we save some money and use it for better investment in our public estate?”
“Scientists at the UK Health Security Agency at Porton Down make a massive contribution to the welfare of our country in difficult times. Ten years ago, the Chancellor’s predecessor wanted to invest £525 million in moving to a single science hub in Harlow. Some £400 million has already been spent, and last year, the National Audit Office said that it would cost £3.2 billion to complete the move by 2036. Three weeks ago, I had an Adjournment debate in which I was told that today, we would know the outcome of what was actually going to happen with this project. Can the Chancellor explain what is happening with the future of the UKHSA at Porton Down?”
“Over several fiscal events over seven years, the option of removing the winter fuel payment from the wealthiest was resisted by the previous Government because there was not seen to be an effective rationing mechanism and there were considerable presentational challenges. Will the Minister confirm that pensioners with no mortgage and with significant tax-wrapped savings in individual savings accounts or venture capital trusts, but with a monthly pension of £2,500, will still be fully entitled to receive the winter fuel payment?”
“I welcome the progress that is being made by IBCA. Of course, the Minister is not directly responsible for how quickly that is rolling out. I note that IBCA has announced that its plan is to prioritise those infected who are still alive; indeed, my constituent Daryn Craik was contacted last week. I suggest that the Minister set up a metric that IBCA could agree to for the time between when people are contacted and when they receive their payment. He could then report that interval back to the House, which would hold IBCA to account on the delivery for these infected people, who have suffered for too long.”
“I very much welcome the aspirations of this strategic defence review and welcome the statement on page 7 that, “We will develop a new Defence Investment Plan”. However, as the Secretary of State knows from all the Budgets and fiscal events he has sat through, he cannot give the House a categorical assurance over future spending commitments, so will he make it clear to the House what decisions he is prepared to make with respect to the existing commitments such that he can secure that additional funding at subsequent spending reviews and Budgets? I hope that when he comes clean completely to this House, he will make clear that there will be considerable ongoing investment in the Defence Science and Technology Laboratory at Porton Down, which does an enormous amount to secure understanding of future technologies in the defence arena.”
“T5. One of the best experiences I had as a Minister in DCMS several years ago was visiting 114 places around the country. I extend an offer to the Minister to come to Salisbury to see the work of Wiltshire Creative. Salisbury international arts festival is starting this weekend, and we would welcome his insights on how collaboration to maximise investment in cultural growth in south Wiltshire can be facilitated.”
“One of the biggest drivers of satisfaction in any profession is settlements in line with inflation and expectations of inflation. Will the Minister assure the House that the settlement to be announced later today will take account of the fact that inflation is vastly higher than was anticipated when the settlement was reached?”
“Several years ago, when I was a magistrate in Westminster and my father was a magistrate in north Wiltshire, we lamented a great deal about the fact that when we put people in prison, we found that there was a whole list of antecedents every time and that this recurred all the time. Could the Secretary of State tell the House what assurances she can give us about prison education, rehabilitation programmes and regular work programmes so that we avoid the pattern of prescribing—with good intentions—solutions that do not work, cost a lot of money and leave the public pretty dissatisfied with the justice system?”
“The shadow Minister is making a forensic case against the Government. May I ask him to focus on an issue that he will be familiar with from his prior ministerial experience? We had the banks before the Treasury Committee yesterday. The imminent outcome of the advice guidance boundary review will require the Government to work closely with the regulator to ensure absolute clarity, so that investors across the country can invest in the future of this country through equities, rather than just leaving their investments in cash. That will require action and direction from the Government. It is an issue on which there is probably consensus, but the Government need to step up to the mark.”
“I recognise how important it is to use temperate language, but all my hon. Friend the Member for Hinckley and Bosworth (Dr Evans) did was to factually set out two statements the Prime Minister made, with an interval between them. The Minister must acknowledge that the public mood has changed significantly in very recent times. The purpose of this debate is to scrutinise the Government’s record in their 10 months in office and to see how effective those interventions have been. It is perfectly legitimate to ask about the characterisation that her Prime Minister has made very recently about this matter.”
“1295.] As the House of Commons Library said in a note to me on 22 January this year, “neither UKHSA nor the Department for Health and Social Care have published an account of this programme to date, nor published any formal reports setting out the current state of the programme.” The National Audit Office published its report, “Investigation into the UK Health Security Agency’s health security campus programme”, in February last year. That report sets out the key facts on and decision points in UKHSA’s programme, including its history, the causes of the delays and the issues so far at the Harlow site. I will not rehearse all those this evening, but reading the report may be instructive for the Minister.”
“I know that this matter will concern you, Madam Deputy Speaker, given that a number of residents in your constituency of Romsey and Southampton North, which is adjacent to my constituency, will be working at Porton. As the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care said in response to my oral question on 13 March, two months ago, this “has been running around the system so long that is now used in a case study for senior civil servant recruitment.” —[ Official Report , 13 March 2025; Vol. 763, c.”
“I am extremely grateful for the opportunity to bring the future of the UK Health Security Agency campus at Porton Down, in my Salisbury constituency, before the House again this evening. I say “again” because 15 years ago, on 22 June 2010, as an eager, newly elected, young MP, I raised the uncertain future of the institution in my first ever Adjournment debate. I did so again on 11 September 2013 and again on 24 June 2015, at the start of my second term as Salisbury’s MP. In one sense, a lot has happened in the past 15 years, but sadly, in another sense, nothing has happened. The project to relocate to Harlow, in Essex, is apparently no closer to completion, but neither have the highly skilled workers at Porton Down been given any assurances that they can stay put.”
“Since that Adjournment debate in 2010, four general elections have been fought and I have had five years as a Parliamentary Private Secretary and seven as a Minister in four roles, but since 2015 I have never been offered any briefing on the future of the facility at Porton and on whether that initial decision, given the events of recent years and a sixfold increase in the costs—rather more than inflation—will be followed through on. As the constituency MP, I am eager to get to the bottom of the matter, and in seeking an update from the Minister this evening—and I certainly do not hold her individually responsible, given that she has only been in post for just over 14 weeks—I do want to seek an understanding about the financial obligations of the programme.”
“I am grateful, as ever, to the hon. Gentleman for his support this evening, and he anticipates some of the points I will make later on. I want also to refer to the Public Accounts Committee, which opened an inquiry into the UKHSA health security campus last year. The Committee heard evidence from the outgoing chief executive Professor Dame Jenny Harries and Shona Dunn, the second permanent secretary, but it was unable to publish a full report owing to the Dissolution of Parliament and instead published its conclusions and recommendations in a letter in May last year. There is a lack of clarity over where we are with these plans, and my simple purpose today is to secure the Government’s assessment of where we are now, 10 months into the new Administration.”
“I thank the hon. Gentleman who is very gracious in the way he puts over his point. It would be helpful for everyone in both our constituencies and for the country as a whole to know what is happening.”
“The programme team is made up of civil servants and service providers, and has input from colleagues from other parts of the UKHSA. It is very ironic to me that as I read over about 13 mentions of Porton Down that I have made in this Chamber over the last 15 years, so many of the Ministers who responded are now either retired, deposed or in the other place. I am concerned that the civil service people, for whom I have great respect having worked closely with lots of civil servants, have been blissfully unaccountable to any enduring authority or direction on this, while all of this work has been going on in the background. That just cannot be right.”
“I am extremely grateful for that very helpful intervention, because the hon. Gentleman points out the co-location of DSTL and the UKHSA at Porton, and that is a really important fact. The possibility of sharing category 4 facilities—something that has been resisted sometimes by one party or the other—is a material consideration when trying to mitigate excessive costs. Last year’s NAO report set out that in February 2022, the programme had a staff team of 92 full-time equivalents based across multiple sites including Porton Down, London and other regional UKHSA centres, working across programme operations, management, delivery and capability, in addition to construction, finance and commercial and leadership teams. In November 2023, there were 69 FTE staff on the programme.”
“I am extremely grateful to my right hon. Friend; I recall the many conversations that we had on this matter. How can we be in a situation where £530 million—Public Health England’s initial estimated cost for the whole programme in 2015—became an estimated £3.2 billion in 2023? I am not sure if that is the very latest figure. Of even greater concern to me is the fact that it was estimated in 2015 that the project would be completed by 2021, yet the best estimate now is that it will not be fully operational until 2036 at the earliest, which is 11 years away. That is if the programme remains at Harlow.”
“Effectively, we are clinging to a redundant plan that briefly made sense—just about, although I was never shown or able to see the outline business case 10 years ago—but that no longer truly reflects what we can afford and the realities of this country’s public health and security needs.”
“Given their unique skillsets, how will replacements be found for the large proportion who will not want to be relocated? I urge the Minister to challenge the documents put in front of her and to actively consider what my right hon. Friend the Member for North East Cambridgeshire (Steve Barclay) has said, given his experience as Chief Secretary to the Treasury and as Secretary of State. Will she consider that, given the investment announced by Sajid Javid three years ago, Porton Down has been equipped to continue to serve the nation far into the future? Is continuing to pursue the vision of a Harlow hub, with its £3.2 billion price tag and 11-year delivery horizon, throwing good money after bad? We have spent £400 million, and we have £2.8 billion left to find.”
“I respectfully ask the Minister, recognising her limited experience of this issue, but respecting very much the office that she carries, whether she can explain to the House this evening how the country can go from an identified need to upgrade the Porton facilities by the then Health Protection Agency at Porton in 2006, to a situation 19 years later where three business cases have been produced by the Public Health England and the UKHSA project team—by up to 92 people—and the programme still has not received full approval. What about the wishes of some 900 world-class scientists working in south Wiltshire, over 90% of whom, when asked previously by their trade union, did not want to move? When will this decision be made?”
“We know about the risk to the 2036 Harlow completion date because of this indecision and the runaway costs. We also know that the best option must be defined swiftly. I think that is delivering a phased refurbishment on existing sites at Porton Down and Colindale, as set out by the UKHSA chief executive to the Public Accounts Committee in March, allowing Porton to continue its proven record of delivering world-class research and ensuring no such gap in our health capabilities.”
“It has an aerosol delivery function using specialist equipment and a settled, secure setting established after many generations of proven delivery for our nation. Porton is routinely used to do work for the US Government. It is one of very few centres in the world with the capability and experienced staff to carry out that work. The conclusions of the Public Accounts Committee last May raised the most serious potential consequence of continued indecision. It said: “As more time passes with no decision on this critical programme the risk of a gap in service for the UK’s high containment public health laboratories grows, with concerning implications for our health security.” Given the significant interim capital investment, there needs to be a serious review of what is going on here.”
“The work undertaken…will define the UK’s future pandemic response.” I was left pondering—while obviously bound by the strictures of ministerial collective responsibility not to ask the question—why, if Harlow was the answer, such significant additional, separate, parallel capital investment was being made at Porton. Porton remains a world leader in examining diseases that spread rapidly, including insect-borne diseases such as West Nile fever and malaria. It is a world-class centre for translational research that helps to ensure new discoveries are developed and translated from the mind of the scientist into real benefits in tested medicines for patients. Porton routinely works with partners to develop tuberculosis vaccines and vaccines for whooping cough, meningitis and anthrax. Porton has the biggest TB group in Europe.”
“At the time, the Department’s press release said: “Technologies like those at Porton Down are vital to tackling both COVID-19 and a broad range of emerging health security threats, and this has been recognised by the government’s…funding to progress research into vaccines to help future-proof the world from diseases.” At that point, Jenny Harries said: “It was a pleasure to be able to tour these…world-class facilities, with the Health and Social Care Secretary…which will help further establish the UKHSA and its Porton Down site as a global leader of vaccine testing and variant research in the fight against COVID-19.”