Dame Karen Bradley
MP for Staffordshire Moorlands · Conservative · United Kingdom
“The Leader of the House knows that I have enormous respect for him, and I am sure that this is quite a difficult statement for him to make, particularly as the right hon. Member for Makerfield will face unfavourable comparisons with Boris Johnson, who did come to this House and make a statement before the summer recess.”
“I thank the hon. Member—my friend from the Select Committee—for an enjoyable visit. We learned a lot, but it was a challenging visit, as there was an awful lot to take in. This is a problem that affects countries across the world; it is not an issue that can be solved by one country alone. We have to work together.”
“Members for Edinburgh East and Musselburgh (Chris Murray), for Sunderland Central (Lewis Atkinson) and for Bassetlaw (Jo White) were all there to see the work being done. It is very impressive to see the work being done jointly with the UK.”
“Someone’s immigration status may make them more vulnerable, but it is a financial crime—it is the exploitation of one human being by another for financial gain.”
“Like many on this side of the House, I have very fond memories of Ann. She made the effort to travel to Staffordshire Moorlands—not many people do; we are quite isolated— [ Interruption. ] Yes, they come to Alton Towers—the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Adam Jogee) is quite right.”
“It is an honour to follow the hon. Member for Oldham West, Chadderton and Royton (Jim McMahon). He was absolutely right about the tone we need to employ. I recognise the comments he made about his constituents. I suspect that his constituents have a very similar view to my constituents—we are not too far apart.”
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“I am so grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that. I know that we will all take note of it and look to promote it to our constituents. I will conclude by saying the UK already has a leading role in this area, but putting the envoy on a statutory footing will reinforce that role, ensure continuity and emphasise the intent of Parliament to ensure that freedom of religion and belief is always observed.”
“I declare an interest as a trustee of the organisation Arise, which does exactly that: we train sisters around the world to identify potential victims of forced labour and exploitation. We give them training on how to make sure that workers—for example, on tea plantations in India—are properly regularised, know their rights and have the right documentation. It is the sisters who do that work, and they are utterly wonderful. My right hon. Friend gives me a great opportunity to pay tribute to them, and I thank her for that.”
“I am very struck by the comments that the Minister is making about the improvement in schools. Will he congratulate the schools in Staffordshire Moorlands, where since 2010, we have gone from fewer than 70% of schools being good or outstanding to nearly 90% now?”
“I congratulate my hon. Friend on his Bill. Will he confirm that it will give the UK a real competitive advantage in the space industry? It seems to me that it will.”
“He is welcome to write to me about this, but will he set out what work the Government have done to ensure that Parliaments around the United Kingdom and others that are affected know about this Bill, and whether we will be looking to get any legislative consent motions?”
“I congratulate my hon. Friend on his debut at the Dispatch Box. I must anecdotally mention that, when I was first elected, we had a visit from a space shuttle crew. Having real spacemen in Parliament was terribly exciting. I want to press my hon. Friend on a procedural point. He may know that the Procedure Committee is looking into the territorial constitution and how the scope of Bills can extend beyond just Westminster, and England and Wales, and also looking at ensuring that we speak to our parliamentary colleagues in devolved and other Parliaments. I note that the extent of the Bill covers the whole of the UK, the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man and the overseas territories.”
“People will see that they have a proxy vote, and they will therefore wonder whether they are on baby leave or long-term sick. It will become clear that the Member has been excluded from the precincts. Charge is public—it is known and it is very clear that it has happened—and it is a very high bar. We have concerns, and there were concerns in the evidence given to the Committee, about when arrest might happen. I appreciate that we are talking about serious sexual and violent offences, and it is unlikely that an arrest would be made on a spurious, vexatious accusation, but it is possible. Across the United Kingdom, arrest can happen at different points, depending on the force and the legal system. Charge therefore makes it clear that there is a very serious allegation that warrants the matter being taken further.”
“I rise to speak as Chair of the Procedure Committee. We have looked at various iterations of risk-based exclusion since we were first presented with the Commission’s proposals in 2022. The decision of when exclusion should apply is not easy. Although I fully support the idea that we should have some form of risk-based exclusion, the point at which it is triggered is a matter for debate. Members on both sides will put forward very persuasive arguments, but I have to say that, based on the evidence heard by the Committee and the safeguards that will be put in place, I err towards the trigger being at charge, rather than arrest. Charge is a public point, whereas arrest is not public. It is very difficult to see how Members of Parliament who are excluded but not publicly named could maintain their anonymity.”
“I thank the hon. Lady for her question. As I said, this is a balanced judgment; there is no right or wrong answer. I am persuaded by many arguments in favour of exclusion on “arrest on suspicion of”. However, on balance—given the job we do, the role we have and the potential for vexatious complaints—I feel that exclusion at the point of charge is right. I am not saying to the hon. Lady that we will not be accused of inconsistency; we very well might be accused of that—we regularly are.”
“The right hon. Gentleman makes the point I referred to earlier: there are different points in the judicial process at which a charge or arrest is made in the different legal systems of the United Kingdom. We have three different legal systems and charges can be brought at different times. This is a balanced judgment—there is no right or wrong answer—on the basis of what is being proposed: to remove the right of a Member of Parliament to attend the Palace of Westminster, which is an ancient right we have held for hundreds of years. We are proposing to introduce something unique and different. Based on the evidence we heard and the advice we received from the Clerks and others, exclusion on charge feels like about the right point to make that decision.”
“I can never resist the hon. Gentleman, and that is why I will always give way to him. He makes a very good point. There may be a role for another process that does that, but for the exclusion process it feels that the right point is at charge.”
“That was not a matter the Committee considered, but my right hon. Friend makes a very good point. We need to think of this as a process and not an event, because things can change and develop. Today we are deciding whether to introduce into our Standing Orders a process for exclusion, but in future we may well decide that the measures did not go far enough and that we need another process. The Commission has taken years to look at the matter. I am glad we have got to the point where we are finally discussing it and we have the chance to vote on the proposals, but it is a process, not an event.”
“We did not consider that point, but we did look at the interaction with the judicial process and concerns about the possibility that a clever barrister might use the fact that a risk-based assessment had been made as some form of defence around fair trial. I am not saying that would necessarily ever happen, but we considered that point and set it out in correspondence to Mr Speaker and the Leader of the House.”
“It is worth explaining why the Committee was nervous about the idea of giving a proxy vote to somebody who had been excluded on this basis. Members of the Committee see proxy votes as a privilege. The House has agreed that a proxy vote can be given to those on baby leave and those with long-term sickness, but a Member cannot be given a proxy vote for bereavement, a sick child or any other reason why they may not be able to attend this place. However, the proposals give a proxy vote to someone who has been excluded on the basis that they pose a risk by being in this building. That did not sit comfortably with many members of the Committee, so the Committee decided it would not support the proxy vote.”
“We were concerned about putting people off going to ICGS, where anonymity is crucial, if, at the same time, there was some sort of risk-based exclusion, because a point in the judicial process had been reached and the Member was excluded under the risk-based assessment. As many right hon. and hon. Members have said, the exclusion would not cover the constituency. If anybody is a risk to the public in that way, then we should not stand by and allow them to continue to carry out constituency surgeries, or visit schools, nurseries, places where there are vulnerable people or people’s homes. If somebody is a risk, they should not be able to carry out their constituency work in the same way. The proposals before us do not cover that.”
“My right hon. Friend’s point relates to the proxy vote. The measures allow for a proxy vote, as I will come to in a moment. Members of the Committee expressed different views but, on balance, we decided, as set out in our correspondence, that charge is the right point for exclusion; we should not have proxy votes, as I will come to; and we were concerned about the make-up of the panel. The other place has decided that charge is the right point, but it does not have the panel, which was an area we considered. We were also concerned about interaction with ICGS. They are two different processes: ICGS does not involve the police, but the police could be looking at the same complaint.”
“My right hon. Friend is right that excluding a representative’s voice from these Benches is a severe punishment for constituents. I will make a final point in my role as chair of the British Group of the Inter-Parliamentary Union. BGIPU has agreed it will follow whatever is decided by this place on travel, so outbound delegations will not feature anybody who has been excluded on the basis of a decision taken by the panel. We will ensure that decision is upheld. I believe the other various parliamentary groups are looking at the same thing. I realise you have indulged me, Madam Deputy Speaker, with the time I have taken. To conclude, on balance, I support what the Leader of the House has put forward and I will be voting in favour of that.”
“I am slightly confused. The hon. Gentleman is making excellent points—they are all good things that we should consider—but the motion is specific in saying: “The Panel will decide on appropriate measures to mitigate any risk, and such mitigation may include one or more of the following…exclusion from the Parliamentary estate…exclusion from domestic travel…and exclusion from foreign travel”. It does not talk about exclusion from bars or changing offices. If it did and we were talking about how we might mitigate risk, we might all be in a different position.”
“Today is Staffordshire Day, when we celebrate all the brilliant things about the county of Staffordshire. Will my right hon. Friend join me in paying tribute to our brilliant police, fire and crime commissioner, Ben Adams, and encourage the people of Staffordshire to vote for Ben tomorrow to ensure that Staffordshire remains one of the safest places to live, work and visit?”
“I apologise for not being here at the beginning of the debate; I was speaking in the Chamber. I will therefore not make a full speech, but I am grateful to be able to comment. My hon. Friend describes the exact situation that my constituents in Rownall face, with multiple applications being made for adjoining pieces of land, all of which are small scale and therefore to be decided by the local district council rather than the Secretary of State. They feel that that is an abusive way of putting in solar farms that will cumulatively be a very large development. Does my hon. Friend agree that the Government need to pause the granting of all applications of this variety and urge district councils to have the appropriate training to identify and measure fully the cumulative impact of these developments?”
“Another choice needs to be made when it comes to solar, which relates to the use of slave labour in the production of many solar panels and the materials that go into them. We should not have to make a choice between being environmentally friendly and respecting human rights by ensuring that forced labour is not active in supply chains.”
“It ignores the genuine concerns of many Members of this House that the holder of one of the highest offices in the land, the Foreign Secretary, is unable to be scrutinised by all the Members of this House. It does so at a time of increased international uncertainty, when the lives of many of our constituents are directly affected by crises abroad, for which the Foreign Secretary holds ultimate ministerial responsibility. The Government response misreads the mood of the House on this matter and undermines the principle of accountability of Ministers to this democratically elected House. I urge the Government to think again on our recommendations and to revisit this matter urgently.”
“However, by rejecting our recommendation on scrutiny at the Bar of the House on this basis, the Government are putting the cart before the horse. They are using concerns about comity to pre-emptively exclude the possibility of even having discussions with the other place about how to facilitate the arrangements we have recommended. The Government’s refusal to engage with our recommendations in a meaningful way means that we will never know whether the other place would be willing to engage with us in facilitating such opportunities for scrutiny of Secretaries of State in the House of Lords. This is a regrettable situation for us to find ourselves in. The Government response to our report is most disappointing.”
“Friend the Member for Sutton Coldfield (Mr Mitchell) to the position of Deputy Foreign Secretary earlier this week, the point still stands that the current arrangements do not allow all Members of this place to put their questions directly to the individual with ultimate responsibility for the work of the FCDO. Lastly, the Government argue that our proposals risk undermining the constitutional balance between the two Houses. My Committee respectfully disagrees. Our report was clear that our recommendations were to enable scrutiny of Secretaries of State in the House of Lords at the Bar of the House of Commons, not to require it or to summon such individuals. We recognise and continue to respect the right of the other place to govern its own affairs.”
“The alternative proceedings through which the Foreign Secretary has been, and will be, subject to scrutiny have the potential to exclude some Members of this House from being able to conduct effective scrutiny on behalf of their constituents. I suggest that this is an unacceptable state of affairs, and I respectfully submit that the Government’s response misses this key point entirely. Scrutiny by elected MPs on behalf of their constituents is a fundamental part of our modern democratic system, and while I welcome the appointment of my right hon.”
“Our report dealt with those points in detail. We were clear that we have great respect for the work that the House of Lords does in its scrutiny of the Government. Moreover, the Foreign Affairs and International Development Committees do excellent work holding the FCDO to account, as do other Committees in both Houses. However, their work complements and adds to the scrutiny that is undertaken in this Chamber; it is not, and cannot be, a substitute for that scrutiny. As we noted in our report, Select Committees and this Chamber have unique mandates, functions and purposes—they are not synonymous. The Government said nothing in their response to make us think again about this matter. All Members of this House must have the ability to scrutinise FCDO policy by questioning the Foreign Secretary in this place.”
“I suggest that the Government have not made the case that our recommendations could have unforeseen constitutional implications, and have failed to adequately set out what they think such implications could be. The Committee is still of the view that the Government should agree to our recommendation to use the Bar of the House to allow questions to be put directly to the Foreign Secretary by all Members of this House. In rejecting our recommendations, the Government suggested that there are sufficient mechanisms in place—scrutiny in the House of Lords and in Select Committees of both Houses, as well as responses by other Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office Ministers to Members of this House at departmental questions, statements and urgent questions—to discharge the Foreign Secretary’s accountability to this House.”
“The reasons put forward by the Government for rejecting the recommendation that Lords Secretaries of State should be scrutinised by this House at the Bar of the House are that it is “untested” as a method for routine scrutiny, and that our recommendations would have “significant constitutional implications”. I am sorry to say that I find those arguments unconvincing. Our report was clear that while our recommendations may be novel in the modern era, they are not wholly untested. Moreover, our recommendations were limited to this Parliament to deal with issues that this House faces now, without setting a precedent for the future—we were very clear on that.”
“The Committee published its report on 23 January this year, and following its publication I made a similar statement to this House to explain our conclusions and recommendations. In that statement, I urged the Government to act quickly on the matter, given the strength of feeling across this House. The Government sent their response only after the House had risen for the Easter recess. It is for that reason that the Committee was unable to publish it until yesterday afternoon, once the Committee had met. Despite that, I hope all right hon. and hon. Members have now had the chance to read the Government’s response in full. It is with regret that I make this statement to inform the House that the Government have rejected our recommendations.”
“I start by adding my own condolences to the many that have been expressed today to Mr Speaker and his family. I thank the Backbench Business Committee for finding time for this statement and pass my regards to the Chair of that Committee, the hon. Member for Gateshead (Ian Mearns). With permission, I would like to make a statement on the Government’s response to the Procedure Committee’s report on Commons scrutiny of Secretaries of State in the House of Lords, which was published yesterday. Following the appointment of the noble Lord Cameron as Foreign Secretary in November last year, Mr Speaker wrote to the Procedure Committee, asking us to examine how Secretaries of State who sit in the House of Lords could be scrutinised by this House.”
“I thank the shadow Leader of the House for her question. She is correct that we as a Committee took evidence from all Members of this House. We listened to representations and we conducted an all-Member survey. It was very clear from those responses that there was a desire to ensure there were opportunities for proper scrutiny by Members of this House of the Foreign Secretary. We are not as a Committee proposing to do any further work on this matter. As I said in my statement, I urge the Government to rethink their response and perhaps come forward with some other suggestions.”
“I thank the hon. Gentleman, who is a fellow member of the Committee, for his question. I think he is reflecting the sense of frustration that was felt in the Committee when we met yesterday afternoon. It is in the Government’s gift to change any matters they wish to change. They control the Order Paper and can make such decisions. As a Committee, we stand ready to scrutinise and to be consulted on proposed changes. However, it is often helpful if the Government give us some indication of the changes they may want, so that we can at least spend our time productively in giving advice on those recommendations, rather than see our recommendations rejected out of hand.”
“The right hon. Gentleman makes a very good point. The appointment of a Deputy Foreign Secretary is what happened in the past—there is precedent for that, for example when Lord Carrington was Foreign Secretary and in previous times. It is something that we had been keen to see, because it means that the House has more opportunities to scrutinise a senior member of the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office team. I am afraid I do not have sight of the changes that may have been made to the portfolio of my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton Coldfield, and perhaps that is something that the Leader of the House, who is in her place and listening intently, could inform the Committee about at some point.”
“Likewise, members of Select Committees do not generally ask constituency-based questions in their work; they tend to ask questions on a theme or on the overall topics of the day. We have that unique role in this place, and that is why we were keen to ensure that there could be some form of scrutiny. We are disappointed that the Government have rejected that.”
“The Committee considered all the points carefully, and looked at the evidence and at precedent. That is why we came to the conclusion that the Bar of the House was the right place for scrutiny of Secretaries of State in the House of Lords. We were keen to ensure that proper scrutiny could be done by this place, because we as elected representatives will often reflect what our constituents are telling us and what we are seeing on the ground in a way that no other body in this place can do. Members of the other place do extremely good work in scrutinising the Government, but without constituents they are perhaps not able to reflect what we hear from people on the ground.”
“I feel that my hon. Friend has made his points effectively, and I thank the Clerks of the Committee for helping me perhaps to tone down the response, based on the Committee meetings we have had. There was also real concern that we did not receive the response before the House rose for the Easter recess, during which we were all focused on our constituencies and not necessarily in Westminster. The need to bring Committee members together and for the Committee to be quorate meant that we were unable to report the response until yesterday. That is another matter of great concern to the Committee.”
“I think that all Ministers in the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office are exemplary and carry out their roles with distinction. The hon. Lady is correct to say that the Secretary of State has a unique role in any Department, and they have the overarching view. That is why Select Committees call in the Secretary of State at least three times a year for an overarching evidence session on all the work of a Department. I am a great fan of the noble Lord Cameron and delighted that he is in his role. I think he represent the United Kingdom superbly, and I would love the opportunity to see him at the Bar of the House. It would be incredible to see him, because he would answer questions thoroughly and rigorously, and we as Members of Parliament would take much from those sessions back to our constituents.”
“My hon. Friend is making a very important point. I am also concerned about families who have stopped claiming child benefit and are no longer on the system, but who find, because of the new rules, that they are actually entitled. How can they make sure that they get the full amount of benefit to which they are entitled?”
“I also pay tribute to the wonderful Amanda Healy, who has been the administrator of BIPA for 30 years. Without Amanda, the whole thing would collapse. She is utterly amazing. It would be wrong of me to say anything other than that she is absolutely fantastic—thank you, Amanda. I also thank the brilliant clerk, Martyn Atkins, who makes sure that I know what I am saying as co-chair, keeps me on track and ensures that I entirely deliver the message that needs to be delivered.”
“The two Inter-Parliamentary Union groups—the British one, which I am honoured to chair in our Parliament, and the one from the Oireachtas—were therefore asked if they could form a grouping of parliamentarians to find a way to open up that dialogue. That was six years before the Belfast/Good Friday agreement; it was a very important part of the dialogue that created an atmosphere in which the agreement could happen. I pay tribute to the late Lord Temple-Morris, who was one of the people who led the initiative from Westminster, and to Dick Spring from the Oireachtas. We were honoured that at a recent assembly Dick was able to address our dinner: it was lovely to hear from somebody who had not only been an architect of the agreement, but been there beforehand laying the groundwork for it.”
“Friend the Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell), who did a fantastic job for so many years—he has been missed at our meetings. For those who do not know, the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly began with the Inter-Parliamentary Union. Back in the early 1990s, there was a recognition that we had inter-parliamentary groups and there were conversations at Government level, but conversations at parliamentarian level are incredibly important in allowing people to recognise that we all face the same problems and all want the same solutions. Before what was the British-Irish parliamentary group, there may have been a lack of trust and understanding and a lack of ability to empathise with parliamentarians on the other side of the Irish sea.”
“Advanced Proteins owns a plant that does animal rendering—it is not a terribly attractive thing to do, but it does it very well. The Irish dairy company Ornua, which brings Irish cheese and butter across the Irish sea to Leek in Staffordshire, also has a plant; Kerrygold is packaged in Leek, and all the cheese from Ireland is processed, grated, put into blocks and sold to consumers across Great Britain. I have a great need for the Irish to be successful, because they employ so many of my constituents. It is incredibly important that Ornua and Advanced Proteins know that we welcome them in the United Kingdom and we want them to continue to invest. I have the great honour of being co-chair of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly, following on from my hon.”
“If we were in Belfast at the same time and we could make it work, we would make a point of getting together with the hon. Member for Bristol South (Karin Smyth)—I will call her my hon. Friend —who was part of his team too. We had great conversations. We wanted the same thing: we wanted the restoration of devolved government, and we wanted to work together to achieve it. We had different ways in, and different people we could influence, but we were all trying to get to the same thing. I am so relieved that we currently have devolved government in Northern Ireland, because it is vital for the people of Northern Ireland that they are properly represented by the people they elect to do so. My constituency does not have a large Irish diaspora, but it has two great Irish employers.”
“The two architects—the late Lord Trimble and John Hume—should be admired for their ability to put aside sectarian differences, come together and show true leadership to solve what had seemed an intractable problem. I wish there were more leaders like them around the world who could do the same thing and make that difference. The other person I want to mention from my time in the Northern Ireland Office is Tony Lloyd, my shadow. He was a wonderful person to have shadowing me. We would occasionally have ding-dongs across the Dispatch Box; that is what politics is about, but I can assure everybody that when we got behind closed doors we got on like a house on fire. We supported different football teams—again, that Manchester difference—but we always had great conversations.”
“There are very few roles that have that as much as Secretary of State or Minister of State for Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland is a place where politics genuinely changed lives. There are very few places where politics and politicians managed to do something as incredible as the Belfast/Good Friday agreement 26 years ago, which got the weapons laid down and ended the violence. We all agree that there are still many problems, and some people who have never accepted the peaceful solution to the constitutional status of Northern Ireland, but the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland, Ireland and the United Kingdom accepted that that political settlement and the compromises involved in it were worth making because of the change that could happen.”
“It suddenly dawned on me that someone was going to have to go to Northern Ireland. It never occurred to me that I would be given that role, but the then Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), invited me into the Cabinet room and—because I had been a Whip and, more importantly, had served with her in the Home Office and understood the sensitivities around the security issues—asked me if I would take on the role. It was a shock to the system, but I have to say that it was the greatest honour. Serving in the Northern Ireland Office, as the Minister knows, is truly one of the greatest honours that one can have in this place, because of the warmth of welcome and the depth of hope and expectation that are put on the politician.”
“I will not pretend that it was not a shock. The late, great James Brokenshire had been doing the role, and he had done a really excellent job. I do not think it is possible to find anyone who would ever say that James Brokenshire ever did anything that was not utterly brilliant, and he was brilliant at that job, but he had just been diagnosed with lung cancer, and for his health and his family’s sake he needed to step away from the role. At that point, I was Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport. I walked into the Department in the morning planning what we were going to do for the rest of the year. It was the first day back—it was actually James’s 50th birthday, so I had been wishing him a happy birthday, and then the news came through that he was resigning and we did not know why.”
“Irish heritage matters: people value being able to identify with Ireland and the Irish community. My mother told me that when she was growing up in Manchester, the Irish community played an important role in Gorton, where she lived. Her father worked in construction, and he knew many Irish colleagues. The hon. Member for Salford and Eccles mentioned the football clubs. I confess that I support the team that has had fewer Irish players in its history, City, but United has always had a significant number of Irish players and a very big Irish support contingent. Getting a plane from Dublin or Belfast to Manchester on the day of a United match is nigh-on impossible. My links to Ireland were really cemented when I was appointed Secretary of State for Northern Ireland—SoSNI, as they say in the Northern Ireland Office.”
“That has meant that we could not be in the Chamber, for obvious reasons—it is estimates day—but we have a full three-hour debate, and we have the chance to talk, as close to St Patrick’s day as possible, about our views and our love for the Irish diaspora and all things Irish in our communities. I confess that I fail the family test, because I am a Mancunian Howarth. The Howarths do not seem to have a great deal of Irish heritage in us; we tend to just be from Manchester. I can pick out lots of bits of Manchester that I have heritage from, but I cannot pick out anywhere in Ireland. I can claim a marriage link, however, because the Bradleys, who I married into, were originally the Bradleys of County Tyrone. I am proud that my children have that Irish link, even though I do not, and that they can proudly say they have Irish heritage.”
“I think that this is probably the first time that I have served under your chairmanship, Dame Siobhain; it is an absolute honour to do so. I pay tribute to my co-sponsor, the hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Rebecca Long Bailey), for her excellent opening speech and for setting out so eloquently the contribution of the Irish community in her community and in the wider United Kingdom. She is such an advocate for the Irish community in the UK. I thank the Backbench Business Committee for allocating time for this debate on 14 March, the closest we could get to St Patrick’s day. When we applied to the Backbench Business Committee, we said that we were keen to have the debate as close to St Patrick’s day as possible.”