Kevin Hollinrake
MP for Thirsk and Malton · Conservative · United Kingdom
“That issue is one of the many things that the people who signed the petition are concerned about, Dr Huq. One of the big things that the Government promised, which I agree with them about, is the need to encourage faster growth in our economy. Of course that is right, but look at where that growth is.”
“The UK economy went through many challenges, of course, some of them caused by Brexit; the reality is that a change like that was bound to have a short-term effect—but only a short-term effect. The country grew faster than Germany and France during that period of time.”
“As I said before, governing is not easy; we had many challenges ourselves, and we did not get everything right, but what we did during that difficult period of time—those 14 years—was get 1.2 million more people employed in our economy. Unemployment was halved during our time in office.”
“Of course, many Government Members supported his leadership challenge. We are here now, looking forward to a general election coming down the track. We are ready for a general election when the Government are, because, unlike them, we have a strong leader—against their weak leader.”
“I was, absolutely. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk (John Lamont) for his excellent opening speech. He made so many good points, not least about the level of support for this petition.”
“Members on the Government side of the House also feel betrayed and angry with their own leadership, for marching them up to the top of the hill and marching them back down again on many of these issues, but they do not feel as betrayed as the businesspeople in this country in particular.”
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“As I said earlier, that provision does not apply to an industry or organisation that receives tips on an occasional or exceptional basis. An example would be a Christmas box or a Christmas present for somebody, or an industry that is not used to getting those kinds of gifts. My hon. Friend talked about the taxi industry, which is an industry in which people regularly receive tips. He also talked about a situation where a customer gives a tip directly to a worker. That tip can be kept by the worker if it is given directly to that worker and is not in the control of the employer. That is the difference: a tip given directly to somebody in a restaurant or some other place can be kept by that individual. We would expect that to be set out in a policy at employer level.”
“I am sure the hon. Gentleman would like to correct the record. A number of recommendations in the Taylor review have been implemented, not least the right to request predictable terms and conditions, which went further than the recommendations in the review. Will the hon. Gentleman acknowledge that fact?”
“I am always keen to improve workers’ rights, and we have done so in this Parliament, but I remember his party clearly saying that Brexit would be a bonfire of workers’ rights and that certainly has not been the case.”
“Clearly, we want to ensure two things—that we get this right and that we respect some of the pressures that exist in the hospitality sector, which has been through a difficult time, with increases in the national living wage, the cost of living crisis and the covid pandemic. We are trying to make sure that we take the sector with us, rather than impose unfair new burdens on it. We do not think that these measures are unfair, because we know that the majority of businesses would adopt these kind of rules even without this legislation. The hon. Member for Glasgow East (David Linden) seemed to imply that we on the Conservative Benches were going to use Brexit to improve workers’ rights.”
“Where a tip has been given directly to a member of staff, it is clear that that tip should be kept by the member of staff. The app is there to allow flexibility in the implementation of the code or the guidance, rather than allowing businesses to avoid their clear obligations. The shadow Minister asked about payments and why they are paid the following month. I think it is reasonable to allow a business to be able to calculate the amount of tips that are received in a month and then pay those out to workers in the month following. We think that that is a reasonable balance to strike. He asks why we are taking another five months to put this legislation in place.”
“We will obviously keep all these matters under review, and the guidance should help to inform the sector about requirements in terms of both employees and businesses. It is hugely important that we do so. He asked whether a person could take a claim forward to an employment tribunal for unfair dismissal. Clearly, employment tribunals are there to ensure that workers can assert their rights if they feel that their rights have not been respected, so we would definitely expect an employment tribunal to hear such a case. The shadow Minister asked about tipping by digital apps. We see this as a new phenomenon and an interesting development, enabling the customer to be able to tip an individual using an app, QR code or whatever, and we will not stand in the way of that.”
“I thank hon. Members for their contributions to this debate in which we are seeking to ensure that the draft code of practice on fair and transparent distribution of tips is approved. I will turn now to the specific issues raised. The shadow Minister talked about engaging with the sector, which is very important. I can tell him that we engage regularly with organisations such as UK Hospitality, the British Beer and Pub Association and the British Institute of Innkeeping on these matters and have been doing so for many months, as we want to make sure that their views are heard. The non-statutory guidance that we will be bringing forward should provide more help for those organisations to comply with the important provisions of this legislation. The shadow Minister asked whether we would review the policy on a regular basis.”
“Yes, those rights have got better. We have introduced legislation that covers the right to request flexible working, neonatal care leave, carers’ leave, protection to cover redundancy during pregnancy and return to work, the right to request predictable terms and conditions, the tipping Bill, and shared parental leave. All those things have been introduced, or supported, by this Government. We see those protections not as an opportunity to create a wedge issue, but as the right thing to do by our workers.”
“He talks about what we have done on communications, working with employer groups, employee groups and the hospitality sector. Yes, we do that—we work with trade unions, ACAS, UKHospitality, the British Beer and Pub Association, the British Institute of Innkeeping and others to ensure that the code of practice and the guidance that will follow will leave them fully cognisant of the requirements on the sector—a sector that is so important to our economy. My hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire (James Gray) said he does not like giving tips. He is free not to give a tip if he does not feel it is appropriate, but most people would say that for good service, they would be prepared to provide a tip. The key point of this legislation is that that tip should be retained by the individuals who provided the service.”
“The most recent figures for economic growth in Scotland over the 10 years from 2011 to 2021 show Scotland’s cumulative GDP growth at 7.2%, England’s at 14.9% and the whole of the UK’s at 12.9%. SNP MPs would do better to go back to their nation and constituency and drive economic progress forward. My hon. Friend the Member for Watford (Dean Russell), who has done such good work in this area, talks about fairness. I know he stands up for fairness, and for Watford; I have seen the amazing montages of all the times that he has mentioned Watford in this Chamber. He deserves plaudits for his work. He says that he was lucky, but as the great Gary Player said, the harder you work, the luckier you get. The success that my hon. Friend has been an instigator of today is due to his hard work and determination.”
“That is a refrain that we constantly hear from the SNP. To be fair to the hon. Gentleman, he did refer to ensuring that we worked alongside hospitality on the guidance, but apart from that, there was nothing in his remarks about the needs of business, and the legislation is about the needs of business. The strikes that affected this country, particularly at the end of last year and in the year before last, cost the hospitality sector around £3 billion. That is why we legislated as we did, and we feel it was the right thing to do. The hon. Gentleman would do well to reflect further on the needs of business as well as the needs of workers. We believe that there is a balance to be struck, and he has got that balance wrong in Scotland. Hon. Members need not listen to me; just look at the numbers.”
“Business of the House (Today) Ordered, That, at this day’s sitting, the Speaker shall put the Question necessary to dispose of proceedings on the Motion in the name of the Prime Minister relating to War Graves Week not later than 7.00pm or not later than three hours after their commencement, whichever is the later; proceedings on that Motion may continue, though opposed, after the moment of interruption; and Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred divisions) and provisions of Standing Order No. 9(3) relating to motions that this House has considered a specified matter shall not apply.— (Mr Gagan Mohindra .)”
“We will continue to monitor the operation of the code and the major industries that it covers, and we will not hesitate to amend it—with parliamentary approval, of course—if necessary. I can also confirm that additional, non-statutory guidance will be published before the code comes into force, to provide further background and help employers to remain compliant with the requirement. I commend the motion to the House. Question put and agreed to. Resolved, That the draft Code of Practice on Fair and Transparent Distribution of Tips, which was laid before this House on 22 April, be approved.”
“My hon. Friend makes a very good point. Of course, we have increased the national minimum wage by record amounts this year to try to make sure that people get paid enough. It did surprise me to think that he would not be a generous tipper, because he has been generous in all my interactions with him. Finally, my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn (Virginia Crosbie) talked about her constituents and the benefits that the code will bring—£900,000 in her constituency, I think she said. She does a great job for her constituents. I must say that my daughters are both pretty pleased with the code as well, as they both work in local establishments. When the code and other provisions on tipping come into force in October, we will right a wrong and ensure that tip money goes where it should: to the workers who provided the service.”
“In the meantime, I trust Members will support this important instrument.”
“We have listened to feedback from the industry, and this draft instrument is designed to remove costs and burdens for businesses and to provide certainty on our approach to product regulation.”
“Furthermore, the draft instrument will introduce a fast-track UKCA measure, which will provide manufacturers with more flexibility when using the UKCA marking to place products on the market in Great Britain without compromising on the legal requirements. This instrument will apply to 21 product regulations managed by the Department for Business and Trade, the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, and the Health and Safety Executive under the Department for Work and Pensions. The Government are taking a tailored approach to ensure that regulation works for sectors and consumers covered by different regulations, including those outside the scope of the draft instrument.”
“Industry in the UK and businesses that supply Great Britain from abroad indicated that ending CE recognition and mandating UKCA would cause issues for their businesses. It could increase costs and require duplicative processes, leading to higher prices and less choice for consumers in Great Britain. Some overseas suppliers also reported that they might reduce or stop sales to Great Britain entirely. This draft instrument will continue recognition of EU requirements, including the CE and reversed epsilon markings, providing businesses with the choice to use either EU markings or UKCA to place products on the market in Great Britain.”
“Many manufacturers with products in the scope of this draft statutory instrument would therefore have no choice but to meet UKCA requirements to legally sell their products in Great Britain. The Government know that businesses are facing increasing burdens, with cost of living pressures and global supply chain challenges. As part of our smarter regulation programme, we are minimising regulatory burdens where feasible, to reduce business costs and to help grow the economy. That is why we are introducing this instrument to continue the recognition of the EU requirements, using powers under the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Act 2023. Last year, the Government held a series of roundtables to hear views from industry, including representatives from about 200 domestic and 50 international businesses.”
“I beg to move, That the Committee has considered the draft Product Safety and Metrology etc. (Amendment) Regulations 2024. It is a pleasure to serve with you in the Chair, Ms Rees. To place many manufactured goods on the market in Great Britain, ranging from toys to machinery, manufacturers must ensure that products comply with the requirements of product regulations. Following EU exit, many EU product regulations were integrated into UK law and we introduced the UK conformity assessed regime, or UKCA, as our domestic product regulation approach in Great Britain. Since 1 January 2021, the UKCA has been in use alongside recognition of the EU’s CE and reversed epsilon markings. That recognition of the EU’s CE and reversed epsilon markings is due to end on 31 December 2024.”
“The product safety review is looking at the regulatory framework as a whole to ensure it is fit for the digital age and takes advantage of the UK’s regulatory autonomy to deliver a regime suited to the needs of UK businesses and consumers. Officials will continue to monitor ongoing EU product regulation reviews and updates. Where EU regulations change, we will consider whether to continue recognition of EU rules on a case-by-case basis, taking into account the views of industry and consumer safety. The Government will introduce legislation later this year for additional measures to support businesses, including introducing permanent labelling flexibility and voluntary digital labelling as an alternative means of product labelling. I will share information with the House in due course.”
“It will also help ensure that goods in scope can be sold throughout the UK without needing different product markings and the associated conformity assessments required for each. We recognise that the instrument may reduce demand for the UK’s conformity assessment market. My officials continue to work with the UK Accreditation Service—UKAS—and industry to monitor the capacity of the conformity assessment body market, ensuring there is sufficient capacity to support a domestic route to market for relevant UKCA products. Technology and manufacturing will continue to evolve. Therefore, in future the UK or the EU might need to make changes to product regulations. The Government remain able to mandate different rules in Great Britain, where we have relevant powers and it is in the interests of UK businesses and consumers.”
“That is an interesting point. We are always keen to look at best practice internationally. Conversations are going on with other international regimes, including the USA, in particular in other areas not covered by this draft statutory instrument—for example, in the medical products sector. Although we are keen to strike mutual recognition agreements with different jurisdictions, I think it is fair to say that the EU is less keen to strike one. We should bear in mind some of the history and the proximity of the UK to EU markets. That is something that we are definitely keen to engage with, in particular under the auspices of our trade and co-operation agreement, which is the overriding mechanism for easing those barriers at the borders. We estimate the draft instrument will save UK businesses £558 million over the next 10 years.”
“I am interested to know what her approach would be, so perhaps she could set it out when she addresses these points in future. [ Interruption. ] Does she want to intervene?”
“Lady talked about wasted money, but this money has not been wasted, in that the UKCA regime still applies and is still available to businesses that want to place goods just in the GB market. We have not legislated permanently never to reintroduce the UKCA marking; we are very much taking a case-by-case approach to sectors and products that we feel will benefit from a UKCA marking rather than a CE marking. The point I would put back to the hon. Lady is that, as is often the case with the Opposition, we hear lots of criticism from people standing on the sidelines, but they do not have any definite plans themselves. Is she saying that she would not have a UKCA marking? Is she saying that she would permanently adopt a CE marking, which would mean she would have to settle for dynamic alignment?”
“I thank hon. Members for their contributions, I will deal with the key points raised. The shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Bow, talked about a dogmatic, ideological approach and about the Government persisting in travelling in the same direction, but admitted in the same breath that we have twice changed the deadline on the CE marking, and we have now changed it again to make it indefinite. As will always be the case with the Conservative party, we are for business because we are from business; we listen to businesses and we are pragmatic. As I said earlier, we have had 46 roundtables and engaged with 200 domestic and 50 international businesses. As the facts change, we change our mind, and it is important that we reflect the needs of businesses. The hon.”
“None of those things would have been possible had we stuck in the European Union, as the hon. Lady wanted, or continued with dynamic alignment with European Union rules. She asked whether we will continue to dynamically align. We will take that on a case-by-case basis. The UKCA mark is still there where we decide to diverge from the European Union. I did not get the hon. Lady’s point about the net benefit. The net benefit is set out quite clearly in the impact assessment: £64.8 million in the first year and £558 million over a 10-year period. I am happy to write to her if she wants to write to me—”
“Let me point out some of the things that she would forgo if she took that approach: the move to digital labelling on a voluntary basis, which businesses greatly welcome; the changes we have made to things such as the working time directive, holiday pay and GDPR, and to the product safety regulations, which will make it easier for businesses to comply with those regulations; the Digital Markets, Competition and Consumers Bill, which will hold big tech companies to account to help small and medium-sized enterprises, in a completely different and we think much better way than the EU; free trade agreements with 73 countries, including Australia and New Zealand; and accession to the comprehensive and progressive agreement for trans-Pacific partnership and thus one of the largest growing markets in the world.”
“We have the largest number of unicorns in Europe—businesses that have gone from start-up to a $1 billion valuation—and twice as many as France and Germany combined. So there are many, many positive things that the hon. Lady might reflect on rather than looking at the difficulties she describes for businesses. I think the hon. Lady said that we should dynamically align with everything the European Union does and that that would be helpful for business.”
“That is slightly above my pay grade, but I acknowledge what the hon. Lady said about my role. I have been here 18 months, and I am pleased to have been in the job, but I also have great respect for my predecessors. The hon. Member for Walthamstow described what has happened as an unmitigated disaster for businesses. I would point out that the UK is now fifth in the global league table for trade; it was sixth, but we have just gone past France. We are the fourth largest exporter in the world; we were seventh, and we have again gone past France. We are third in terms of GDP growth, whether we look at the period since 2010, since the pandemic or indeed since Brexit. We are the second largest exporter in the world of financial services.”
“I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. It is the UKCA mark, by the way. The reality is that we will take this on a case-by-case basis. Where there are good reasons to diverge for a product or sector, we could use the UKCA mark and diverge from the European Union. We are not going to diverge right across the piece; we can have the best of both worlds. We can make it easier for businesses that want to trade across borders in the European Union and the UK, but we can diverge where necessary using the UKCA mark. Before I conclude, I will give way to my right hon. Friend.”
“Without this legislation, from 1 January 2025 businesses that do not comply with UKCA requirements will not legally be able to place their products on the Great British market. Industry identified that that could increase costs, leading to higher prices and less choice for UK consumers—indeed, as I said, there will be a saving of £558 million to businesses over 10 years. Our officials will of course continue to engage with industry. The Government are committed to high levels of protection for UK consumers and continue to take a pragmatic approach to improving regulation to benefit businesses and consumers. I urge the Committee to approve the regulations. Question put and agreed to. Resolved, That the Committee has considered the draft Product Safety and Metrology etc. (Amendment) Regulations 2024.”
“I am very happy to take up my right hon. Friend’s first point in more detail offline. The thing that we are dealing with here is the expiry of CE certification by the end of this year. On UKCA certification, he is right to say that the deadline is 2027, but that tackles a separate problem. The problem we are trying to solve here is making sure that businesses have the consistency and continuity of being able to use the CE marking. On other sectors, such as chemicals, my right hon. Friend is a much greater expert than I am, and I am sure he will be making approaches to the relevant Ministers about those areas. I certainly urge him to do so and to use his experience in that regard.”
“It is a pleasure to serve with you in the Chair, Mr Henderson. Would you mind indicating what time we are due to conclude? I am a little bit lost.”
“Gentleman did not directly refer to any changes in the universal service obligation; he wants to leave that for another day.”
“I am very grateful, Mr Henderson. I thank the hon. Member for Rhondda (Sir Chris Bryant) —I could not believe he is not a right hon. Member— for securing today’s important debate. I will touch on the specific situation in the Rhondda, as well as the wider situation. If I may, I will talk about the wider situation first. Clearly, we recognise the points that the hon. Gentleman made. Mail is very important to our constituents for all kinds of different reasons, ranging from hospital appointments to cards and letters, which are very important to our constituents and will remain so. In the last financial year, all postal operators delivered around 3.6 billion parcels across the UK, and Royal Mail delivered 7.3 billion addressed letters—I will come to the point about prioritisation shortly. The hon.”
“I met Martin Seidenberg, chief executive of the parent group, and made that point to him clearly. He accepted that this was the case, and that things need to improve. One thing about prioritisation, which the hon. Gentleman referred to, is that—”
“Member for Rhondda raised about the general quality of service, we understand that we have had a number of complaints. It is one of the most frequent items that comes across my desk in correspondence or meetings with fellow Members of Parliament. Ofcom obviously has the powers to investigate and take enforcement action where failures are identified. It did so when it fined Royal Mail £5.6 million earlier this year for its contravention of conditions in 2022-23. Ofcom is obviously monitoring this to make sure that the service improves. The latest published quality of service results for quarter 3 of 2023-24 showed that Royal Mail continues to fail to meet its first and second class delivery targets. It is quite clear that the service is not at the level we want to see.”
“Thank you, Mr Henderson. On the universal service obligation, I know the general obligation was not something that the hon. Member for Rhondda focused too much on, but it is important to say that we believe the six-days-a-week service should remain. We have been very clear about that. Ofcom has the primary duty to secure its provision. Despite the fact that letter volumes have halved in the last decade, which has put further pressure on making the service viable, it is right that the Prime Minister and I make it clear that the importance of maintaining a Saturday delivery service is that it provides flexibility and convenience. We will not countenance scrapping it, not least because of the impact that would have on the greeting card, magazine and similar industries. I will come to Rhondda specifically, but on the main point the hon.”
“Royal Mail advises that its most recent performance data from the start of 2024 is much stronger, particularly the service levels for first class mail, reflecting some of the changes that have been made. As I say, it is actions we want, not words. I know that the hon. Gentleman will not be satisfied until he sees changes on the ground.”
“Three thousand additional postal workers have been recruited, and Royal Mail has introduced new sickness and attendance policies, which it claims are playing a significant part in reducing absence. Royal Mail recently delivered its best-performing Christmas period in four years, with more than 99% of items posted before the last recommended posting dates arriving by Christmas eve. It is encouraging that following an agreement with the Communication Workers Union, results are beginning to improve, with sickness absence reportedly down by about 25% by the end of December compared with 2022, and only 0.2% of the daily 54,000 walks could not be resourced on any given day by the end of December.”
“To be clear, the hon. Gentleman was referring to whether Royal Mail is prioritising parcels over letters. Ofcom looked at that to see whether it was a feature of some of the problems behind the service level, and it did not identify any suggestion that Royal Mail’s senior management had directed the prioritisation of parcels. Nevertheless, I think we are all concerned about anecdotal stories at a local level that suggest it may be the case. We absolutely do not want to see that happen. The strategy for Royal Mail that Martin Seidenberg set out gave me some comfort, although it is actions not words that we want to see. It included accelerated recruitment of permanent workers, reinforced operational management at regional and local levels, and tackling sickness and absence.”
“Gentleman has evidence of that, will he please raise it with me or directly with Royal Mail? The hon. Gentleman raised a point about the lack of banks and available cash on high streets. We have legislated for that, and post offices play an important part. I also look after them, as he will be aware. Banking hubs might feature in the towns and villages in his constituency in the coming months and years. I have also just replied to his letter on counterfeit stamps, which he should receive. [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman acknowledges that he has received a copy.”
“We would definitely urge Royal Mail to do that when constituency Members of Parliament are not happy. The hon. Gentleman raised an important point about complaints. If he googles the Royal Mail customer service centre, which I am sure he has, there is a phone number and an online form to fill in. There is also an independent dispute resolution service—the postal redress service—which can try to resolve disputes. Citizens Advice can also provide assistance to constituents and constituency Members of Parliament to resolve these issues. He could also write to Ofcom to ensure that it is aware of the service difficulties he is experiencing. On his point about whether Royal Mail is obscuring the level of service, moving mail to a van outside and bringing it back in, that would be totally unacceptable. If the hon.”
“Royal Mail reports that it is currently delivering to all addresses served by both delivery offices six days a week when there is mail to deliver, and if postal workers cannot deliver on a given day, mail will be prioritised the next working day. We are assured that it is actively working on measures to restore service levels, and while it tries to tackle the local service issues, no address will go without a mail delivery for more than two days. I am sure the hon. Gentleman will update me regularly if that proves not to be the case. I understand that the hon. Gentleman was due to visit one or both of those delivery offices in March, but that was postponed. He is looking at me very quizzically; maybe that was not the case. Royal Mail will be in touch with him to try to arrange a new date, if he would like to visit again.”
“The time taken to recruit staff has also contributed to gaps in the service. Royal Mail has acknowledged that it has not been able to deliver a consistently high level of service to the hon. Gentleman’s constituents. I understand that the issues have centred around the Ferndale and Mid Rhondda delivery offices. In Ferndale I understand that last month there were six members of staff absent and that some customers may have experienced disruption to their deliveries. Royal Mail has now advised that absence levels have since been reduced, with fewer members of staff currently absent through sickness. In Mid Rhondda, there are currently three staff absent on sick leave and Royal Mail is currently recruiting an additional postal worker.”
“I will take that away, and I am very happy to look at it, because I believe in holding Royal Mail’s feet to the fire. There may be an advantage if we look at that at constituency level. I note the hon. Gentleman’s point that mail is sporadic and there is often no mail or it arrives late, resulting in missed appointments or fines and all those things. These are very serious issues, so I can understand his frustration. He said that he has had considerable contact with Royal Mail about those service issues, as is right—he is a very diligent Member of Parliament, and we urge other colleagues to do the same. Royal Mail reports that service in the area was disrupted due to sickness absence in some parts of his area being higher than average, and it was not a good picture across the board anyway.”
“We are committed to ensuring that we have a financially sustainable and efficient universal postal service for all users in all constituencies. I would like to ensure that Members of this House are able to bring concerns to me whenever they or their constituents are disappointed with local services. I ask the hon. Gentleman please to ensure that I am aware of the difficulties that he sees on an ongoing basis. With that, I will conclude my remarks. Question put and agreed to.”
“That is a matter close to both our hearts and those of others in the room today. Speaking from my own perspective, as someone who is not easily convinced or easily has the wool pulled over his eyes with reassurances, I was impressed by Martin Seidenberg, but people will be convinced only when services improve. I have set out some of the ways that they should improve. There is a personnel issue, as well as some management ones. There have been some steps forward, as I set out earlier. That should help to secure the improvements that the hon. Gentleman and I want to see. As I said before, it is not words but actions that we want to see. I am happy to hear from Members across the House to ensure that service levels are where we want them to be.”
“On Monday, the House agreed a Government amendment to the Horizon exoneration Bill—the Post Office (Horizon System) Offences Bill—to include convictions in Northern Ireland. The Northern Ireland Executive faced unique challenges in delivering their own legislation in a timely manner. Including Northern Ireland in the Bill ensures that postmasters there are not left behind, and receive exoneration and access to compensation on a UK-wide basis.”