Richard Burgon
MP for Leeds East · Labour · United Kingdom
“With climate change leading to further droughts and water shortages, the iniquitous role of the leaderships of private water companies, and the system they represent, will only get worse. We hear a lot about Thames Water, but we also need to talk about Yorkshire Water.”
“It is a real pleasure to serve under your chairship, Sir Jeremy. I start by thanking the more than 200,000 petitioners across the country, as well as the hundreds of my Leeds East constituents, who have signed the petition. When discussing the arguments for public ownership, we need to start by staring the facts in the face.”
“Enough of all this: full public ownership is what is needed. Let us get into step with the rest of the world, focusing on cleaner water, lower bills and a system that actually works and is fit for the climate challenges of the future. People out there in the country know this is a disgrace, and they know it needs sorting out now.”
“What we are considering today is not the general principle, “Do we or do we not agree with assisted dying?”; it is this Bill. We are not a debating society; we are a Parliament. I therefore ask my hon. Friend why it is the case that virtually no disabled people’s organisation in this country supports the Bill.”
“These sanctions on Israel for its illegal occupation are incredibly welcome as a step towards meeting our moral and legal obligations. Will the Foreign Secretary continue to resist pressure from those who say that he should not make international law apply to Israel?”
“Further to the earlier request from my hon. Friend the Member for Battersea (Marsha De Cordova), may I push the Government for a debate on the progress of their measures to tackle the ongoing failure of Capita to effectively administer civil service pensions?”
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“While the far right and shamefully even some MPs in this House are busy denying climate change and trying to turn it into the latest culture war, people in our communities are paying the price. More and more severe floods are devastating people’s lives, as we have seen again in recent weeks, and I am afraid it will only get worse. Does the Minister agree that it is an absolute disgrace that the last Government left our flood defences in the worst state on record, and that fixing that has to be a national priority and a key part of preparing for climate change?”
“To be clear, this website pushes people to suicide by encouraging suicide, and by actively attempting to dissuade them from seeking mental health support or the support of their family and friends. It provides people with instructions on how to take their own life, it has links to where substances can be purchased, and it has even livestreamed suicides.”
“The reason I have sought this Adjournment debate on internet service providers and suicide-related content online arises from a terrible tragedy that happened in my constituency. My constituent Joe Nihill was aged just 23 when he took his own life back in 2020 after accessing a horrific website. The purpose of that website is something that will alarm every Member of this House: it is dedicated to pushing people towards suicide. In fact, the website—which I will not name for reasons of public safety—was the subject of a BBC investigation linking it to more than 50 deaths in the UK, but it is linked to many more deaths around the world. That BBC investigation, which took place a year ago, rightly identified multiple warnings to the UK Government by coroners, and a number of police investigations.”
“What is needed is a change in the law. Of course, I welcome the advance made in this regard through the Online Safety Act 2023, which I will turn to later.”
“The hon. Member is correct that everyone should exercise great moral responsibility when putting stuff out there for people to see and be influenced by. Joe Nihill’s mother Catherine and his sister-in-law Melanie have run an inspiring campaign in the wake of that tragedy to stop what happened to Joe back in April 2020 happening to other people. Before he took his own life, Joe left a note for his family, and in that note, he asked them to do everything they could to get this website taken down so that others were not pushed down the same path as him. Catherine and Melanie have saved lives as a result of their interventions, personally preventing people from going down that path. What is needed, though, is not the heroism of people such as Catherine and Melanie—it has saved lives, but it is not enough.”
“The response from Virgin Media O2 concerned me, and I want to put it on the record. It originally came back to me saying that it would block the site if a court order told it to. We need to be clear that it is not impressive to say, “If a court tells us to do something, we will do it.” A court order is a court order, and companies have no choice other than to comply. Virgin Media O2 also referred to people changing settings so that they cannot access this site. Virgin Media O2 needs to get real. Somebody who is in the mindset of considering taking their own life—somebody who is struggling to control that impulse—is not likely to disable the setting to stop themselves from looking at it.”
“Ofcom’s need to consult means a long lead-in time; although it is important to get these matters right, that can often feel frustrating.” —[ Official Report, 26 November 2024; Vol. 757, c. 250WH.] It is right that internet service providers do the right thing and take responsibility. Just as Joe’s family have been contacting internet service providers, so have I. I very much welcome the fact that Three has responded to representations by blocking this site, which I will not name, as has Sky. Other responses were not quite as positive or as practical. Vodafone responded by saying that the site is blocked “where customers have adult content filters enabled”. BT responded by saying that “our fixed network level broadband parental control settings for all ages block the site”.”
“In a statement at the time, Ofcom told BBC News—this was just over a year ago—about the then Online Safety Bill: “If services don’t comply, we’ll have a broad range of enforcement powers at our disposal to ensure they’re held accountable”. In a recent Westminster Hall debate, I intervened on the Minister about this, and I congratulated the internet service providers Sky and Three on taking action to block access to this site. The Minister very helpfully welcomed that intervention, and made the important point that “internet providers do not have to wait for the Act to be enacted; they can start making such changes now.” She went on to say that “the Online Safety Act…is a landmark Act, but it is also imperfect.”
“Member mentioned her constituent David Parfett, and David’s son Tom was 22 when he ended his own life in 2021 after accessing this site. Responding to Sky Broadband’s decision as an internet service provider a year ago to block this site, Mr Parfett said: “It made me cry. It’s pure relief, mixed with anger that Tom may still be here if” it “had been regulated two years ago. My sole aim has been to stop other people being influenced to take their own life.” Responding to a defiant response from the site linked to the founder of the website, Mr Parfett added: “These people encourage others to die and celebrate death”.”
“We are never going to end suicide, but we know that so many people can be helped.” The BBC investigation identified one of the creators of the site, and tracked him down to his home in Huntsville, Alabama in the US. He was doorstepped by the BBC reporter and he refused to answer any questions, but an account associated with this creator of the site issued defiant responses about the UK’s wanting to block the site. As part of its investigation a year ago, the BBC contacted internet service providers, as did Joe’s sister-in-law and his mother. Sky Broadband, for example, responded by saying that it had blocked the site. Catherine and Melanie said at the time: “It’s really important to us both, as it means access is becoming limited to prevent others…finding it—which is a step in the right direction.” The hon.”
“I thank the hon. Member for her intervention, and I will mention her constituent’s horrific experience later in my speech. I agree that there is much further to go to ensure that the Online Safety Act does what it needs to do to protect as many people as possible. Of this website, Joe’s sister-in-law Melanie said yesterday on social media that “the problem with these websites is that they are accessed by people at their most vulnerable and children. I’m Joe’s sister in law and I know Joe would still be here if he hadn’t accessed that website because the method he used is only discussed there he wouldn’t have known any other way. These sites are run by people who prey on the vulnerable and say they too are going to end their life but 4 years later they are still here doing the same thing pushing methods.”
“They have been struggling to do so against great odds—it sometimes feels like a David and Goliath situation. I note that when people are, for example, illegally streaming football matches, action is taken very quickly, yet this website, which is linked to the deaths of 50 people, remains up there. I look forward to the Minister’s response and thank Members for attending the debate.”
“Member for Twickenham (Munira Wilson) was 21 or 22 when he took his own life, so it is ridiculous to assume that harmful suicide-related content of this type is only a danger to people under 18. In relation to the question to the Home Office tabled on 24 October 2023 by the right hon. Member for Goole and Pocklington, will the Minister take action to ensure that her Department answers that question? Will she agree to the Government contacting Cloudflare as the host of the site and raise concerns and make representations? We are talking about the deaths of 50 citizens in our country. I will finish my remarks by again paying tribute to Catherine and Melanie, Joe’s mother and sister-in-law. They have been navigating this complex, ever-changing world of dangerous activities that go on online and their actions have saved lives.”
“To conclude, I will ask the Minister, who has been doing a fantastic job on these sensitive issues, a number of questions. Will she congratulate those internet service providers who have done the right thing in taking action to block this site? Does she agree that those who have not should step up to save lives? Will she assure me that once Ofcom’s powers are fully enacted, the Online Safety Act 2023 will deal with this specific site regardless of the number of people who access it and whether those people are under or over 18? I find it frustrating when internet service providers get back to me and refer to child protection. My constituent Joe was 23 when he took his own life, and the constituent of the hon.”
“Cloudflare ceasing to host its website would not be a contravention of the principle of freedom of speech but a choice of a reputable and respected company not to give a platform to a website which has been linked to the death of 50 people in the UK alone. Such a decision by Cloudflare could well save lives.” I said: “It should be noted that both Sky Broadband and 3 mobile have blocked access to this website”. I got no response to that letter on a really serious matter. I hope not only that internet service providers will do the right thing, but that the major company Cloudflare will do the right thing and stop hosting this website. Disrupting its operation in that way could save lives, and I believe that it would save lives.”
“I said: “The reason I am writing to you today is because it appears your company is hosting this website and I would like to draw this to your attention so you can terminate your hosting of this site, to protect the public in both our countries”— the USA and the UK— “and across the world. I know a successful company of over a decade’s good standing like Cloudflare with an excellent reputation, would not wish to be associated with such harmful content, linked to the deaths of many vulnerable people across the world.” I detailed the whole matter, as I have detailed it to the House, and then I put: “I would be very grateful if you look into this matter as a matter of urgency before any more vulnerable people are encouraged or enabled to harm themselves due to this website’s activities.”
“It said: “To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, whether her Department has held recent discussions with Cloudflare on removing the website linked to deaths by suicide reported on by the BBC on 24 October 2023.” He was asking what the then Government had done to pressure Cloudflare, which hosts this site, to take it down and disrupt its operation. No answer was given to that. He is still awaiting a response to that question that was due an answer on 31 October 2023. On 29 May 2024, I wrote to the chief executive officer of Cloudflare, Matthew Prince, making it clear what had happened in this situation.”
“Three UK should be congratulated on what it has done. The fact that it can inform me of the number of attempts to access such sites that it has blocked shows why it is fundamentally necessary for other companies to do the right thing. The site is hosted by Cloudflare, a major company with a good reputation and a corporate office in London. I draw the House’s attention to a written question asked by the right hon. Member for Goole and Pocklington (David Davis), who I emailed earlier about this. On 24 October 2023, he asked a written question that was passed to the Home Office.”
“Of course further action should be taken. There are technological limits that sometimes mean a block cannot be 100% effective, but lives can be saved and will be saved by restricting the number of people who access this site. I put on record that I have had no answer from EE. It should answer, and it should act. I encourage all internet service providers to do the right thing and, in whatever way they can, to block this specific site, which is linked to 50 UK deaths, is the subject of police investigations, as we understand it, and is referred to in various coroners’ reports. To give a sense of the scale of the challenge, Three UK has kindly provided me with data today that shows that it has blocked 10,025 attempts to access URLs that it has categorised under suicide and self-harm in the past month alone.”
“I could not agree more with my hon. Friend. This is not a freedom of speech issue; this is a particular website linked to the deaths of 50 people in our country and many more worldwide. In its reply, Virgin Media O2 also said that it was handling this matter through its partnership with the Internet Watch Foundation. I contacted the Internet Watch Foundation, and it replied that “we work with companies to block child sexual abuse material specifically, so don’t work on suicide related content I am afraid”. It was therefore a poor reassurance from Virgin Media O2 to point to a partnership with an organisation that does great work, I am sure, but not in relation to this specific issue. I pressed Virgin Media O2 further, and it said: “We will review the specific website you raised with us and consider if further action should be taken”.”
“My third question is: is the Minister certain that neither domestic nor international law is being violated by this carve-out? I also put on record that I have been told by lawyers that the ongoing export of F-35 parts leaves workers in Britain, including civil servants in Government Departments, at risk of being held individually criminally liable for war crimes and other crimes under international law, including genocide. I want a very clear answer from the Minister and the Government as to whether they have provided legal advice to workers on this. How are the Government planning to protect the civil servants and other workers who export F-35 parts that end up in Israel from potential complicity in breaches of international humanitarian law? These are important questions, and I look forward to them being answered by the Minister.”
“They have been used to drop the deadliest bombs on Gaza, and they have been used since the beginning of the war. The sale of these arms is not only in flagrant violation of international law, but totally immoral and leaves Britain complicit in war crimes. The sale of these arms must end. I hope that the Minister will answer some specific questions. The Government admitted to the Business and Trade Committee last week that all F-35 parts in the global spares pool are in fact tracked by the US Government. My first question is: do the UK Government have access to that information? If not, why not, and have they asked for it? My second question is: does the UK Government know what portion of F-35 parts that the UK exported to the global spares pool has ended up in Israel since 7 October 2023?”
“The Government have accepted that Israel is “not committed to compliance with International Humanitarian Law in Gaza, including in the conduct of hostilities”; that “the overall picture was of obvious concern, especially having regard to the number of civilian casualties”; and that “there is a clear risk that F-35 components might be used to commit or facilitate a serious violation of IHL”. Yet the Government conclude that these exports “should nonetheless continue.” It is important that we address this issue head-on. The Government have decided to carve out F-35 exports from their own licensing criteria, which are meant to ensure adherence to international law, but international law and our own laws cannot be opted into and out of at will. The F-35s are the main military export to Israel.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Harris. We cannot carry on with a business-as-usual approach to Israel. That has become a green light for war crimes. That is why 60 MPs and Lords from seven parties recently called on the Foreign Secretary to introduce sanctions, which is what needs to be done. I want to use my time to put on record in this House the submission made by the Government to the latest High Court hearing into the legality of ongoing exports of F-35 fighter jet parts that end up in Israel.”
“The United States has confirmed that all F-35 parts in the global spares pool are tracked by the US Government. Our Government have admitted that, too. Do the UK Government have access to that information? If not, why not, and have they asked for it? Do they know what proportion of the F-35 parts that the UK has exported to the global spares pool have ended up in Israel since October 2023?”
“It has been deeply moving to see Syrian families reunited after years in Assad’s prisons. On the wider situation, it is important that we learn the lessons from the past—not least from Iraq and Libya, where years of even greater chaos and disaster replaced the dictatorships. Many countries are militarily involved in Syria, but people do not want our military resources or troops dragged into more wars in the middle east. Can the Foreign Secretary assure us that —as distinct from humanitarian aid, which is welcome—no military resources or personnel will be sent to Syria?”
“My right hon. Friend rightly lists figures of national and international significance who are backing the campaign for Alaa’s release. Does my right hon. Friend agree that in constituencies across the country—including my constituency in Leeds—more and more people, when they hear this heartbreaking story, are feeling that this is a huge injustice and that we want our Government to do everything they can and strain every sinew to get Alaa released and reunited with his family?”
“I have the deepest respect for my hon. Friend, but one thing that concerns me is societal or systemic coercion. At the moment, elderly people in our society pay thousands of pounds a month to be in a care home. What reassurances can my hon. Friend give that an elderly person in a care home who has been given six months to live would not think to themselves, “I’m a burden. I have been given six months to live. If I end my life now, I can save my family between £25,000 and £55,000”? That really concerns me.”
“On a number of occasions during the passage of the Online Safety Bill in this House, I raised the story of my constituent Joe Nihill from Leeds, who sadly took his own life after accessing very dangerous suicide-related content. I want to bring to the Minister’s attention that before Ofcom’s new powers are put into practice at some point next year, there is a window where there is a particular onus on internet service providers to take action. The website that my constituent accessed, which encouraged suicide, deterred people from seeking mental health support and livestreamed suicide, has been blocked for people of all ages by Sky and Three. Will the Minister congratulate those two companies for doing that at this stage and encourage all internet service providers to do the same before Ofcom’s new powers are implemented next year?”
“After the issuing of the arrest warrants against Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu, can the Foreign Secretary confirm when the Government will impose the scale of sanctions on Israel, not just individuals, that the Government rightly imposed on Russia after the ICC issued an arrest warrant against Putin? A war crime is a war crime, and an arrest warrant is an arrest warrant. All lives are equal, and we must ensure that there can be no accusations of double standards.”
“The Secretary of State was absolutely right to say at the close of the climate talks that the only way to keep the British people safe from extreme weather and economic disruption is to ensure that the world acts together. That requires funding, but it is clear that the COP in Azerbaijan did not deliver that at the scale needed. The Make Polluters Pay coalition is calling for the big oil companies worldwide, which have made grotesque profits while driving the climate crisis, to fund the required investment at home and abroad. Is that not the fair way to secure the necessary finance?”
“It is vital that people are helped into fulfilling, well-paid work so that they can realise their potential. The Secretary of State rightly mentioned the importance that she places on discussing these changes and reforms with disabled people and disabled people’s groups. In the course of her discussions, will she ask those people and groups about the work capability assessment? Many people who visit my constituency surgery feel degraded and demeaned by the WCA tests, and many of the decisions that are made turn out to be wrong and are successfully appealed against later.”
“We hear about the review, but while that review has been ongoing under the last Government and this one, thousands and thousands of Palestinian civilians have been killed.”
“I must press the Minister on the question of F-35 arms sales. He mentions direct and indirect arms sales, and he says that the indirect arms sales are either irrelevant or impossible to remedy. As I understand it, there is no reason why F-35 parts that are made in the UK, sold to the United States and used by Israel cannot be subject to a conditional licence under which they are sold to the United States with the proviso that they cannot be used in Gaza. Given that, how can it be legally or morally justifiable to continue allowing UK parts for fighter jets that are being used to kill Palestinian children to be exported even indirectly to an Israeli leader who faces an arrest warrant for war crimes and crimes against humanity?”
“Last week, a United Nations special committee found that Israel is using starvation as a weapon of war, and that Israel’s methods of warfare in Gaza are consistent with genocide. Given that, to put an end to the humanitarian crisis, do we not need to see tough sanctions on Israel—on arms, trade and individuals—until Israel finally stops violating international law?”
“The devastating scenes of flooding in Spain remind us all of why urgent investment is needed to deal with the deadly consequences of climate change. Does the Minister agree that that investment should be paid for by the polluting companies that have caused the climate crisis?”
“Government Members will obviously not take protestations about poverty from the Conservative party with anything other than a mountain of salt. But the Government spend £1,300 billion per year and the cut to winter fuel allowance will save the Government about £1.4 billion per year, so that cut will save about 0.1% of Government spending. On that basis, as we look at all the welcome advances made in the Labour Budget—all the great stuff that we can talk about—and we consider that this measure saves only 0.1% of Government spending, I really urge the Minister to think again. I think the public would welcome that as a sign of real leadership. Not anyone or any Government always gets it right, and I believe we got it wrong on this occasion. Could the Government rethink on this issue?”
“The Budget is a welcome break from a decade of austerity. It contains progressive tax measures, but more needs to be done now and going forward on poverty reduction. It was put together following the toxic inheritance from the Conservatives. It would be good to see more than a handful of Members on the Opposition Benches. Who knows? They might be able to learn something.”
“The Government should grasp the nettle and introduce a series of wealth taxes, starting with a 2% tax on wealth above £10 million, which would raise billions more for our public services. I would have liked the Budget to do more on tackling poverty. I am concerned that real-term cuts to benefits next year appear to be planned. That must not happen, and disabled people must not be subjected to more cuts and attacks. The two-child limit needs to go, fast. A Labour Government should eradicate child poverty, not allow more children to fall into poverty. The last Labour Government lifted many children out of poverty, and that is what we want to see again. The winter fuel allowance cut should be reversed. That cut makes no sense morally, politically or even economically, and it is not too late to think again and scrap it.”
“That is why we have heard so much squealing from the Tories and the right-wing press in recent days. It seems that defending the super-rich is the main reason why they get out of bed in the morning. Progressive taxes, achieved by ending the non-dom scheme—why on earth would they have a problem with that?—having higher capital gains taxes, and extending the windfall tax on oil and gas profits, are what we need to fund our services. We need more of that, because public services need more funding. The increases announced in the Budget, after the initial boost over the next couple of years, will not be enough to repair the damage done by a decade of Tory cuts.”
“The Budget is a welcome break from more than a decade of austerity, and especially from the Tories’ slash-and-burn plans announced at their last Budget, which would have meant even more deep cuts. It is good to see public investment being emphasised, as that is key not only to rebuilding our public services but to driving growth and better living standards. Likewise, the boost in day-to-day spending for public services over the next couple of years is welcome—for example, we are funding 40,000 extra NHS appointments a week and recruiting 6,500 new teachers. Having campaigned against poverty pay for many years, I welcome the boosts in the minimum wage, although there is more to be done. The Budget included positive measures for those like me who want the wealthiest and tax dodgers to be made to pay their fair share.”
“Will my hon. Friend accept from me the congratulations of the people of Leeds, who value Martin House Children’s Hospice in Wetherby so highly? Many people in Leeds will look to Liverpool with great admiration at the incredible fundraising efforts, which have impressed and inspired so many. They have also led people to conclude that we cannot allow places such as Zoe’s Place to go to the wall, and that guaranteed full funding for palliative care and children’s hospices is a must.”
“Another day, another outrage from an Israeli Government, who are treating the international community, international law, the UK Government and, above all, Palestinian lives with utter contempt. Words are not enough; actions are needed to force the Israeli Government to end the war crimes and the violations of international law. When will the UK Government impose on Israel the scale of sanctions that they have imposed on Russia?”
“The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to take into account the requests of the petitions and consider the resource benefits of Wealth Taxes when allocating funds in the budget. And the petitioners remain, etc. [P003016]”
“I rise to present a petition on wealth taxes in the autumn Budget, further to a corresponding online petition signed by over 50,000 people. The petition states: The petition of residents of the United Kingdom. Declares that a 2% Wealth Tax on assets over £10 million, a measure to equalise Capital Gains Tax with Income Tax rates, and measures to end state subsidies to fossil fuel giants and to close loopholes in the oil and gas windfall tax should be brought; and further notes that these measures would generate an additional £45 billion per year, providing vast resources to rebuild our public services, boost people’s incomes and invest in a higher-wage economy.”
“My hon. Friend mentions his local water company. People in Leeds and Yorkshire feel ripped off, and it is no wonder, as Yorkshire Water has just announced its intention to increase prices by 35% by 2030. Does he agree that that is a compelling reason why the water companies should be brought into public ownership, so that they can put public service, the public good and environmental good ahead of the accumulation of profits for shareholders?”
“I have listened with interest to what the shadow Minister is saying about people being entitled to go all the way to an employment tribunal hearing from the moment they take up employment. Has he ever heard of pre-hearing reviews for employment tribunals?”
“For example, it is 30 years since the Tories took away prison officers’ right to strike, and I would like to see that returned. If people succeed in proving unfair dismissal at an employment tribunal and get a reinstatement order, I would like to see it made much more likely that they will, in fact, be reinstated. I welcome the Bill, I am proud to vote for it and I think it is shameful that the Tories will vote against it.”
“There is so much in the Bill to improve workers’ rights in a range of areas—parental leave, paternity leave, unfair dismissal, statutory sick pay, collective redundancies, tips, the duty to prevent sexual harassment and the requirement for firms of more than 250 employees to make equality plans. The Conservatives think this is bad news for business, for workers and for our country, but that could not be further from the truth. As this important Bill makes progress, I hope that the Government will find ways to clarify and strengthen a small number of points. Some loopholes on fire and rehire need to be closed, and it would be great if we could further strengthen the rights of union access to workplaces. I would also welcome improvements in a host of other areas.”
“Conservative Members do not seem to understand that many good employers follow such standards already, and we are enabling those good employers to operate on a level playing field with bad, rogue bosses who seek to undercut good employers left, right and centre. Before I was first elected back in 2015, I was a trade union lawyer for 10 years, and I saw day in, day out how working people are held back by weak protections and anti-trade union laws. I am really proud to be here today to welcome and vote for this significant step forward in employment rights by a Labour Government.”