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UK PARLIAMENT · SITTING

Helen Whately

MP for Faversham and Mid Kent · Conservative · United Kingdom

IN THEIR OWN WORDS

Every holiday period, Kent and my constituency of Faversham and Mid Kent is brought to a standstill, and that has become much worse with the introduction of the EU entry-exit system, despite the fact that our ports and Eurotunnel have invested in the technology.

EUROPEAN ENTRY AND EXIT SYSTEM · 2026-07-08 · READ IN HANSARD

The situation could be horrific this summer: imagine people, including children and elderly people, and potentially pets, waiting in their cars in this heat for around 12 hours. It is a disaster. I implore the Minister to involve the Prime Minister—and, most likely, the right hon.

EUROPEAN ENTRY AND EXIT SYSTEM · 2026-07-08 · READ IN HANSARD

I congratulate the hon. Lady on securing the debate. She is making an important point about the fact that we need not just the minimum but the maximum. We need really strong commitments. The Cleve Hill solar development in the village of Graveney in my constituency is huge. It has obliterated 900 acres of agricultural land and marshland.

NATIONALLY SIGNIFICANT ENERGY INFRASTRUCTURE PROJECTS · 2026-06-30 · READ IN HANSARD

On the point about considering the community benefit, what counts as a community is really important. In some circumstances—this has come up in my local area—a large geographical area is considered as a community, even though the number of households that are very substantially affected is very small.

NATIONALLY SIGNIFICANT ENERGY INFRASTRUCTURE PROJECTS · 2026-06-30 · READ IN HANSARD

I associate myself and those on the Opposition Benches with the Secretary of State’s comments about the outgoing permanent secretary of the Department for Work and Pensions. I am sorry that this may be my last exchange with the Secretary of State, as we await the coronation of the king in the north and the appointment of his new team.

TOPICAL QUESTIONS · 2026-06-29 · READ IN HANSARD

I heard no commitment from the Secretary of State that the benefits bill was going to come down any time soon. Labour can change its leader, but it is still the same old welfare party. The right hon. Member for Makerfield (Andy Burnham) told us this morning that he is going to bring “Manchesterism” to the whole country.

TOPICAL QUESTIONS · 2026-06-29 · READ IN HANSARD

The complete record

Every one of 603 lines we hold for Helen Whately, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 8 of 13.

  1. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Harris, to discuss lighthouse borrowing rules. This Budget day does not seem to be a good day to be a borrowing rule. Nevertheless, in this Committee Room, the Opposition are more inclined to see eye to eye with the Government on the necessity of some rule changes. I expect all Committee members agree that our general lighthouse authorities need to have up-to-date kit to keep mariners safe. I recognise that £100 million went a lot further in 1988 than it does today, and that vessels cost somewhat more now.

    DRAFT MERCHANT SHIPPING (GENERAL LIGHTHOUSE AUTHORITIES) (INCREASE OF BORROWING LIMIT) ORDER 2024 · 2024-10-30 · READ IN HANSARD

  2. My constituents in Throwley and Wichling have been battling for high-speed broadband. We thought we had it over the line, but in a recent telephone conversation Building Digital UK said that it was still to be confirmed. Would the Secretary of State be willing to meet me to discuss how we can ensure that those communities do not miss out again?

    BROADBAND CONNECTIVITY · 2024-10-16 · READ IN HANSARD

  3. I wonder if the right hon. Lady can see the irony in the fact that the new bus system that she is so excited about introducing is broadly the same as the train system that she is busy dismantling. The simple truth is that without funding, the Government’s plan will not make struggling bus services viable or affordable for passengers. What has helped is our £2 fare cap, which has saved millions of people money and helped to keep local buses going, especially in rural areas. Does the Secretary of State agree that the £2 fare cap has been a good thing and, crucially, is she going to keep it?

    LOCAL BUS SERVICES · 2024-10-10 · READ IN HANSARD

  4. After just 100 days, this is already one of the most anti-growth Governments in history, from investor-scaring taxes to the right hon. Lady hitting the brakes on our transport infrastructure pipeline, with Northern Powerhouse Rail, the Midlands Rail Hub and road upgrades across the country all on hold. Growth requires investment and investment requires confidence. Will she give some to the businesses looking to invest, to the contractors waiting to get started, and, crucially, to the communities that so badly need these upgrades?

    TOPICAL QUESTIONS · 2024-10-10 · READ IN HANSARD

  5. I was expecting the right hon. Lady to say something along the lines of “wait for the Budget”, or “wait for the spending review”, as we have heard many times during this question session. However, she did not wait for the Budget to give unions a massive pay rise, to re-announce our plan to get HS2 to Euston, or to signal billions of pounds for a new HS2-light. If she can make those decisions before the Budget, surely she can confirm that every penny of investment that we had committed to transport through Network North will continue to be invested in our country’s transport infra- structure.

    TOPICAL QUESTIONS · 2024-10-10 · READ IN HANSARD

  6. Catapults are not classed as offensive weapons, but they are being used increasingly in my constituency to injure and kill livestock and pets. Will the Minister responsible for such matters agree to meet me to discuss how we can deter these people and stop their use of catapults to kill?

    TOPICAL QUESTIONS · 2024-09-10 · READ IN HANSARD

  7. I beg to move amendment 18, page 1, line 12, at end insert— “25B Report on impact of prohibition on franchise extensions and new franchises The Secretary of State must lay before Parliament— (a) within six months of the coming into force of the Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Act 2024, a report on the anticipated impact of the prohibition on franchise extensions and new franchises under section 25A; and (b) after a period of five years has elapsed after the coming into force of the Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Act 2024, a report outlining the actual impact of the prohibition on franchise extensions and new franchises under section 25A.”

    PASSENGER RAILWAY SERVICES (PUBLIC OWNERSHIP) BILL · 2024-09-03 · READ IN HANSARD

  8. Fundamentally, the Government are rushing ahead but travelling blind, pressing on irrespective of the impact on passengers or taxpayers, which they simply do not know. The right hon. Lady has made herself passenger-in-chief and then set off on a journey without knowing the destination. That is not a sensible way to govern. Passengers should always come first, above providers, unions and ideology. That is why our first amendment would require the Government to set out what impact they believe the Bill will have.

    PASSENGER RAILWAY SERVICES (PUBLIC OWNERSHIP) BILL · 2024-09-03 · READ IN HANSARD

  9. On Second Reading, I said that some more thought should go into the Bill over the summer. I asked a series of questions and made a number of suggestions. At the very least, I was expecting the Government to table some amendments, but I am sorry to report that, as far as I can see, they are going full steam ahead. There is no sign that any serious thought has been given to the long-term impact of Government-run train companies on growth, or on the efficiency of our railways. There is barely a word on the liabilities that this Bill would transfer on to the Government’s balance sheet, and crucially, no evidence has been shared about how passengers and their journeys will be affected.

    PASSENGER RAILWAY SERVICES (PUBLIC OWNERSHIP) BILL · 2024-09-03 · READ IN HANSARD

  10. In the Government’s haste, the Bill lacks any controls or incentives to reduce the risk of increased costs to taxpayers and passengers. We can say the same for performance: where in this Bill are the incentives to improve that, or the protections for passengers should performance worsen when the right hon. Member for Sheffield Heeley is at the controls of our trains? In the Government’s haste, those things are missing too. In their haste, if they do what they said in their manifesto, they are going to bring thousands of rail workers into the public sector, all under a single Government employer. We will have unions reclining comfortably on ministerial sofas as they discuss pay for thousands of people, funded by the taxpayer, with no safeguards to speak of to make sure the taxpayer gets a good deal.

    PASSENGER RAILWAY SERVICES (PUBLIC OWNERSHIP) BILL · 2024-09-03 · READ IN HANSARD

  11. There is no good reason for this Committee stage to be raced through in one day, rather than through a normal Bill Committee that would allow proper time for consideration and discussion, the time appropriate for such a substantial and significant change. Proper time would allow this legislation to be made better—indeed, fit for purpose—drawing on the strengths of our rail system as well as the weaknesses, and using the lessons of our experience and that of others, while still fulfilling the Government’s intention as set out in their manifesto. Instead, in their haste, this Bill simply takes a one-size-fits-all approach, pulling the plug on even the best train operating companies despite the mixed record of the Department for Transport when it comes to the performance of the franchises it runs already.

    PASSENGER RAILWAY SERVICES (PUBLIC OWNERSHIP) BILL · 2024-09-03 · READ IN HANSARD

  12. Our railways are vital to our economy: millions of people rely on trains, whether to get them to work or school, to make essential journeys, to see family and friends, or simply to visit other parts of the country. Our rail system is complex—a mix of public and private built up over many years. One thing it is not, though, is a toy train set to be played with, but I fear that is the approach this Government are taking. They are rushing through this ideological reworking of our rail system despite the absence of solid evidence to back up their approach, at a time when other countries are choosing to increase private sector involvement and competition in their rail systems.

    PASSENGER RAILWAY SERVICES (PUBLIC OWNERSHIP) BILL · 2024-09-03 · READ IN HANSARD

  13. It is good to see hon. Members so soon after the summer recess. I know that the Secretary of State for Transport, the right hon. Member for Sheffield Heeley (Louise Haigh), has been busy over the summer, but I hope that she managed—like the Deputy Prime Minister—to find some time to let her hair down. When we last met, I set out why the Conservatives cannot support the Bill. I do not doubt that Government Members sincerely believe in their plan, in getting rid of privately run train operators, and in putting politicians in charge of running train services, but just because an ideological belief is deeply held, that does not make it right. It is certainly not the same as using evidence as a basis for decision making.

    PASSENGER RAILWAY SERVICES (PUBLIC OWNERSHIP) BILL · 2024-09-03 · READ IN HANSARD

  14. I would hope that the report would be set out in a way that stands up to scrutiny, that it draws on evidence and that it has a suitable level of rigour for something so significant. It would also give us all something to hold the Government to account against, as well as the managers who take over responsibility for train operators.

    PASSENGER RAILWAY SERVICES (PUBLIC OWNERSHIP) BILL · 2024-09-03 · READ IN HANSARD

  15. As I said a moment ago, amendment 18 would require the Government to set out what impact they believe the Bill will have. For instance, what impact will getting rid of private sector train companies—the good performers as well as the weaker ones—have on passengers, fares, reliability and the cost of the railway to taxpayers? The amendment proposes that the Government should set that information out clearly in a report within the next six months. I am sure that hon. Members do not consider that to be unreasonable; surely, it is the least that any of us would want to see, since we all represent both rail users and taxpayers. It would mean that we would all know what difference the Government expect the legislation to make.

    PASSENGER RAILWAY SERVICES (PUBLIC OWNERSHIP) BILL · 2024-09-03 · READ IN HANSARD

  16. Unfortunately, the hon. Member is simply wrong in some of the statements she makes. I am not ideological about this—I know that there is a place for the public sector and a place for the private sector. In our reforms, we proposed a closer working together of track and train through Great British Railways, much of which this Government are planning to bring forward. However, there have also been benefits to this country from privatisation, including a significant growth in passenger numbers, which has not been seen in many other countries. That is one reason why several European countries are planning to follow our model and increase competition in their rail services, in order to drive up passenger numbers and provide greater efficiencies.

    PASSENGER RAILWAY SERVICES (PUBLIC OWNERSHIP) BILL · 2024-09-03 · READ IN HANSARD

  17. There are a few problems with what the hon. Member has just said. One is that he talks about those figures, but the Government have not taken the time or trouble to set out what the impact of the Bill on passengers and taxpayers is expected to be. Were the Government confident about that impact, I am sure they would have set it out, but they have not. That is why our amendment proposes that they should set it out. We also know that while on the one hand, there are some savings to be made from management fees—I will come to that later in my speech—the benefits of competition, and the pressure of profit and loss and the bottom line, drive innovation and bring efficiency. That does not necessarily happen to the same extent in the public sector.

    PASSENGER RAILWAY SERVICES (PUBLIC OWNERSHIP) BILL · 2024-09-03 · READ IN HANSARD

  18. We therefore think it would be prudent for the Office of Rail and Road to form an independent judgment on whether DOHL has the capacity and expertise to take on each new franchise as it comes up, and to run it, at a minimum, as well as it is already being run. That could be done well in advance of most contracts ending, so it would not really be a hindrance to the Secretary of State’s plan, but it would provide a great deal of reassurance to passengers, and all of us as their representatives, about the capacity of the Government to successfully take over the functions of so many train operating companies.

    PASSENGER RAILWAY SERVICES (PUBLIC OWNERSHIP) BILL · 2024-09-03 · READ IN HANSARD

  19. I recognise that the Bill makes reference to that risk by providing for franchise extensions where it would not be practical to bring the service in-house, but under the current plans, that would be decided by the Secretary of State. It is not that I do not trust the right hon. Lady, but she has shown herself to have a great deal of confidence in public operators, in the absence of any substantial grounds for that confidence. I have been told that there is no plan to increase headcount, budget or resources of any kind for DOHL as it takes on that increase in workload from four to 14 franchises. I welcome the Government making an effort to achieve efficiencies at the centre, but I struggle to believe that more than tripling the number of franchises brought in-house will not involve some increase in resources.

    PASSENGER RAILWAY SERVICES (PUBLIC OWNERSHIP) BILL · 2024-09-03 · READ IN HANSARD

  20. No, I will make some progress. For the reasons I have described, we have also tabled amendments to put some conditions on franchises moving into the public sector. Under the Secretary of State’s plan, the running of trains on our network will increasingly be tasked to a little-known Government company called DFT OLR Holdings Ltd, or DOHL, the current operator of last resort. It seems to me a huge risk to expect DOHL to successfully take over and run every franchise in the country. DOHL has had, shall we say, mixed results with the franchises it has taken over, and expecting it to run a further 10 on top of the four it is currently operating strikes me as a lot to ask.

    PASSENGER RAILWAY SERVICES (PUBLIC OWNERSHIP) BILL · 2024-09-03 · READ IN HANSARD

  21. While the Secretary of State might be saving £150 million each year on fees, industry experts have predicted that the Bill could cost passengers and taxpayers up to £1 billion a year in lost productivity and growth—and that is before accounting for the Government’s taking on all the long-term liabilities of the companies. Pension obligations, rolling stock and long-term leases will all be transferred on to the Government balance sheet, and we have had alarmingly little information on what that figure will be.

    PASSENGER RAILWAY SERVICES (PUBLIC OWNERSHIP) BILL · 2024-09-03 · READ IN HANSARD

  22. The Government have told us that part of their rationale for these changes is to better align the incentives of train operators with the interests of passengers, but the Bill currently provides no mechanism for that. We are not seeking to frustrate a change that this Government were elected to deliver; we simply wish to bring proper transparency and accountability to the process. That includes reporting on the costs involved in bringing operating companies into public ownership. Government Members will no doubt point to the money that will be saved by removing management fees, but this equation is not one-sided.

    PASSENGER RAILWAY SERVICES (PUBLIC OWNERSHIP) BILL · 2024-09-03 · READ IN HANSARD

  23. We will need to know how well the public train companies are performing—what they are doing to increase passenger numbers and drive growth in rail services, how reliable their services are, how well they are keeping costs under control, and how satisfied passengers are with the service they provide. Our proposals will allow us to identify both good and bad performance, hold the managers of those companies to account and reward them accordingly, such as by linking managerial pay to performance. Those companies will no longer have shareholders to answer to, or the financial incentives that go with a senior role in the private sector.

    PASSENGER RAILWAY SERVICES (PUBLIC OWNERSHIP) BILL · 2024-09-03 · READ IN HANSARD

  24. Under the franchise system, whatever its shortcomings, train operators are incentivised to increase passenger numbers and control costs. That has been an undeniable success of privatisation. Passenger numbers have doubled and costs have been controlled, increasing at a far slower rate than revenue. In future, passengers and taxpayers will have to foot the bill for any loss of control on costs, any inefficiencies or any failures to innovate. That is a serious implication, and something we should do our best to protect people from. Creating, or recreating, some incentives is a good place to start.

    PASSENGER RAILWAY SERVICES (PUBLIC OWNERSHIP) BILL · 2024-09-03 · READ IN HANSARD

  25. Time and again, the Secretary of State has said that her No. 1 priority is passengers—that she will protect their interests above all else, and that it is for them that she is seeking this change. This is a chance to put her money where her mouth is and create a legal duty that promotes the needs of passengers in all future agreements with public sector operators. That will build in a layer of accountability on things that we all agree are important. On amendment 8, public bodies marking their own homework is not something that Opposition Members believe leads to good results. I know from my time in government that independent scrutiny makes life harder for Ministers, but it also improves accountability, and with that outcomes. That is why we seek to introduce proper financial reporting and oversight for public sector operators.

    PASSENGER RAILWAY SERVICES (PUBLIC OWNERSHIP) BILL · 2024-09-03 · READ IN HANSARD

  26. I accept some of the points that the hon. Gentleman made. That is why I said that the record of DOHL had been mixed. Sometimes there has been improvement in performance, but that is not the case for all the franchises it runs. That is my reason for not being confident that it is the right organisation to take on such a large increase in its workload, particularly without any further increase in its resources, including some operators that are performing better than the train companies that he mentioned. We want every contract that is awarded to place a duty on DOHL to look at how to modernise our network and to ensure that passengers are at the forefront of all decision making—passengers not just in urban areas and around London but, crucially, in rural areas and places that have traditionally been under-served by the rail network.

    PASSENGER RAILWAY SERVICES (PUBLIC OWNERSHIP) BILL · 2024-09-03 · READ IN HANSARD

  27. My understanding is that the Labour Government want to build on the progress we have made in devolving responsibilities to cities and regions, but this Bill looks more likely to reduce the options for other devolved authorities, leaving them able to run concessionary models only if they get an exemption under section 24 of the Railways Act 1993 to do so.

    PASSENGER RAILWAY SERVICES (PUBLIC OWNERSHIP) BILL · 2024-09-03 · READ IN HANSARD

  28. In fact, the EU has enshrined in law the rights of open access operators in tendering for passenger services. We are not proposing that at this stage, but I am concerned about how this change will impact on those already operating on the network, and what opportunities will remain open to them or others to offer new open access services in future. The same goes for the future of devolved concessionary models. Why, if Government Members truly believe that private providers are simply siphoning off cash, can Transport for London and Merseyside still run concessionary models? While I happen to think they should be allowed to do so, it does not seem fair to have one rule for Sadiq Khan and another for everyone else. What about Manchester, Leeds or Birmingham? What if they want to run their own transport systems in a way that suits them?

    PASSENGER RAILWAY SERVICES (PUBLIC OWNERSHIP) BILL · 2024-09-03 · READ IN HANSARD

  29. Gentleman’s party has to bring forward this legislation—I think I made that clear—but I want to improve it, and improving it involves introducing a level of transparency and accountability that simply is not in the Bill. That is why I tabled my amendments. We also seek clarity on how the Bill will affect other privately run passenger services on the network. It is clear that deep down, those on the Government Benches know that the public sector cannot, and should not, run every service on the network. That is why open access operators like Eurostar and Gatwick Express have rightly been allowed to continue under these plans. Open access represents a huge opportunity for passenger rail in this country. When done right it can provide nimble, cost-effective services that give passengers greater choice and bring in revenue for the network.

    PASSENGER RAILWAY SERVICES (PUBLIC OWNERSHIP) BILL · 2024-09-03 · READ IN HANSARD

  30. The hon. Gentleman and I probably do have different views ideologically; I will acknowledge that. I think that he probably, as was implied in his intervention, thinks that profit is bad. I think that profit can be a helpful thing, and it is thanks to the motivation of people to make profits that we in this economy, and those in many similar economies, have the prosperity that we enjoy today. I think that Government can do a lot, but I am also thoughtful about when Government can help and when Government might hinder. That is why I take the view that, in rail, sometimes it is right for the public sector to do things and sometimes it is right for the private sector to do things. One thing that I fundamentally think is missing from the Bill is scrutiny. I am not trying to frustrate the mandate that the hon.

    PASSENGER RAILWAY SERVICES (PUBLIC OWNERSHIP) BILL · 2024-09-03 · READ IN HANSARD

  31. Why are the Government rushing through this Bill? Is it to please their Back Benchers, who we know are deeply unhappy about scrapping the winter fuel allowance, or is it to please their union paymasters? I know the right hon. Lady has promised everyone that she is going to move fast and fix things, but this looks more like moving fast and breaking things. I say sincerely to her, as I am sure she will want to make this legislation as good as it can be and, like me, wants to do the best possible job for all our constituents and for the country we serve, that she should please consider the amendments we have tabled and think hard about giving them the Government’s support.

    PASSENGER RAILWAY SERVICES (PUBLIC OWNERSHIP) BILL · 2024-09-03 · READ IN HANSARD

  32. Madam Chair, I am grateful to you for giving me some time to outline our amendments, and I am mindful that other Members wish to talk to their amendments or make maiden speeches, so I will wrap up my comments with a couple of final points. As we made clear on Second Reading, His Majesty’s official Opposition do not support this Bill. Our rail system needs reform, and we have set out plans to do that, but this Bill is not the right way to go about it. On the contrary, the Government are being driven by a flawed ideological belief along the lines of “public sector good, private sector bad”. It is not underpinned by evidence of what works, and they are not being straight with people about the possible downsides such as higher fares for passengers, higher costs for taxpayers and less reliable trains.

    PASSENGER RAILWAY SERVICES (PUBLIC OWNERSHIP) BILL · 2024-09-03 · READ IN HANSARD

  33. Given that this Government seem to be set on creating a single huge employer across the network, as set out in their manifesto, which surely means harmonising pay and terms and conditions across many thousands of employees, none of whom I suspect will want to give up whatever terms they most value—a four-day working week, 34 days of annual leave and the extra money they negotiated to start using iPads are some examples—can the right hon. Lady imagine what effect this might have on ticket prices and the efficiency of our network? An independent pay review body could at least gather evidence and advise Government on what makes sense to fill jobs and provide value for money for the taxpayer.

    PASSENGER RAILWAY SERVICES (PUBLIC OWNERSHIP) BILL · 2024-09-03 · READ IN HANSARD

  34. Unfortunately, the right hon. Lady’s approach is deeply flawed and risks our facing more strikes in future, rather than fewer. [ Interruption. ] Yes, to directly answer her question, I can assure her that I have spoken to her predecessor in the role, and I know that the reforms proposed to modernise the railways were crucial not only to controlling increasing costs and fares, but to improving the reliability of our train services. Unfortunately, she gave all that up overnight when she gave away a bumper pay deal of almost 15%, with nothing from the other side to improve services. The independent body I am proposing would look at pay and terms and conditions in the round. It could shed some light on who is getting a fair deal and help put modernisation at the top of the agenda in negotiations.

    PASSENGER RAILWAY SERVICES (PUBLIC OWNERSHIP) BILL · 2024-09-03 · READ IN HANSARD

  35. We are simply proposing sensible changes to protect passengers and taxpayers, and I urge them to reconsider during the Lords stages of the Bill. Question put and agreed to. Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.

    PASSENGER RAILWAY SERVICES (PUBLIC OWNERSHIP) BILL · 2024-09-03 · READ IN HANSARD

  36. Here we are on Third Reading of the Bill after just a few hours of debate. Rushing this Bill through makes no sense at all. Why? Are the Government throwing a bone to their Back Benchers in return for their backing cuts to the winter fuel allowance? Is it to please the unions that donated to Labour Members’ campaigns? Is it a distraction from dodgy appointments and the conduct of their Rail Minister in the other place? Or do the Government Front Benchers believe this to be a minor change, though it is not? Is that why they think so little scrutiny and parliamentary time is required? I urge the Government to think long and hard about the amendments we have put forward. Although we do not agree with this plan, as I have said, we accept their mandate to deliver it.

    PASSENGER RAILWAY SERVICES (PUBLIC OWNERSHIP) BILL · 2024-09-03 · READ IN HANSARD

  37. I would have hoped that we could agree on the importance of controlling costs, including one of the biggest costs that the railways face, which is that of the workforce, but again we clearly disagree on that. The Government have caved into ASLEF’s pay demands with a “no strings, no modernisation” pay deal, and now Government Members have voted against our proposal for an independent pay review body, a simple mechanism to help the right hon. Lady make sure she is not steamrollered into conceding to excessive and expensive pay demands by Labour’s powerful union paymasters. However, I welcome the hint from the Minister with responsibility for local transport that the Government may be considering introducing something along those lines, and I look forward to hearing more about that.

    PASSENGER RAILWAY SERVICES (PUBLIC OWNERSHIP) BILL · 2024-09-03 · READ IN HANSARD

  38. We recognise the Government’s mandate to nationalise the railways. We are not seeking to frustrate that, but simply to improve their legislation. I have heard the arguments of Government Members and the Secretary of State in support of the Bill, but I remain unconvinced and unreassured. We agree that rail needs reform, but we disagree on how to do that. I thought we agreed that passengers were the priority, but it seems that we disagree on that too, because Government Members have just voted against a simple amendment that would have ensured that public operators served the needs of passengers, including in rural and underserved areas.

    PASSENGER RAILWAY SERVICES (PUBLIC OWNERSHIP) BILL · 2024-09-03 · READ IN HANSARD

  39. The contracts that were brought in to save the railways are now stifling the companies they kept afloat, and the Treasury is subsidising the network’s day-to-day running to the tune of £3 billion a year, so things need to change. That is why, in government, we commissioned a landmark review into our rail system. I welcome the fact that Labour is taking forward our plan for Great British Railways, which is the product of that review. Joining up track and train into a single public body will make the system more efficient and save passengers time and money, which is important because affordability and reliability are what people care about, and the point of being in government is delivering on what people care about.

    PASSENGER RAILWAY SERVICES (PUBLIC OWNERSHIP) BILL · 2024-07-29 · READ IN HANSARD

  40. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Madam Deputy Speaker. Congratulations on your election. It is my honour to respond to the first Second Reading of a Bill moved by this new Government, which I see as an opportunity to set the tone for how we will act in opposition. We are not going to oppose for the sake of it, and I do not believe that a single person on either side of the House, among the public, among those working on the rail network or even among those running the train companies would say that everything is as it should be with our rail system. We are in no doubt that rail needs reform. Covid fundamentally changed the way we travel. Far fewer people now commute five days a week.

    PASSENGER RAILWAY SERVICES (PUBLIC OWNERSHIP) BILL · 2024-07-29 · READ IN HANSARD

  41. I worry about what this legislation tells us about how the Labour party plans to act in government. My worry when I first saw the Bill—multiplied many times over by the Chancellor’s statement, to which I will return—is that it seems to be based solely on ideology. There is no evidence, barely even a suggestion, that this Bill will actually improve journeys for passengers. The Secretary of State, perhaps to her credit, has even admitted so herself, saying that she cannot promise that fares will be any cheaper or that the trains will be more likely to run on time. The Bill is the embodiment of the same old Labour mantra that anything run by the state is simply better than anything run by the private sector, and that the answer to a problem is putting politicians in charge, when it has been proven time and again that that is not the case.

    PASSENGER RAILWAY SERVICES (PUBLIC OWNERSHIP) BILL · 2024-07-29 · READ IN HANSARD

  42. We often hear it said in this country that our rail system should be more like those in Europe, where under a utopian system of public ownership, the trains always run on time and every journey costs less than a pint of beer. However, that is not how the European see it. In fact, in terms of the growth in passenger numbers and the controls on costs that privatisation delivered, our network is envied by Europe. [ Laughter. ] I knew Government Members would laugh, so listen to what I have to say.

    PASSENGER RAILWAY SERVICES (PUBLIC OWNERSHIP) BILL · 2024-07-29 · READ IN HANSARD

  43. Billions of pounds of private capital has been invested in rolling stock; there is now live real-time information on services; and, instead of British Rail catering, passengers can now choose between the likes of M&S and Greggs. The railway went from costing taxpayers hundreds of millions of pounds a year to generating an operating surplus for much of the 2010s. It was not just taxpayers and passengers that benefited. To quote the general secretary of ASLEF, Lew Adams, back in 2004: “All the time it was in the public sector, all we got were cuts, cuts, cuts. And today there are more members in the trade union, more train drivers, and more trains running. The reality is that it worked”.

    PASSENGER RAILWAY SERVICES (PUBLIC OWNERSHIP) BILL · 2024-07-29 · READ IN HANSARD

  44. There was a reason why private provision was introduced into the rail network and why the previous Labour Government stuck with it throughout the 13 years they were in power: it worked. Today’s railway is unrecognisable from that under British Rail, not despite privatisation but because of it. In the first 20 years, passenger numbers doubled, a point that Labour’s own Rail Minister, who now sits in the other place, made in his 2015 report as the head of Network Rail. The majority of that growth is attributable to the private sector’s involvement, and it was achieved while operating one of the safest railways in Europe.

    PASSENGER RAILWAY SERVICES (PUBLIC OWNERSHIP) BILL · 2024-07-29 · READ IN HANSARD

  45. The point I will come to is that the Opposition and I, as shadow Secretary of State for Transport, do not choose to take an ideological approach. The important thing is what works. If the hon. Gentleman will hold on for a moment and listen to what I am coming to, he will understand my argument. I confess I may be a little jealous if the Secretary of State is too young to remember life under British Rail: the dusty carriages, the worn seats, the clonk and rattle of the carriage doors, and hours spent waiting on deserted platforms wondering if, let alone when, the trains would ever arrive, without any information available. Even the sandwiches were tired. It is no wonder that in British Rail’s nearly 50-year history, passenger numbers across the network actually went down.

    PASSENGER RAILWAY SERVICES (PUBLIC OWNERSHIP) BILL · 2024-07-29 · READ IN HANSARD

  46. Today, free from the greedy profit vultures who previously feasted on its carcase, that figure remains at 61%. Compare that with Greater Anglia, whose contract comes up for renewal in September. By the way, Greater Anglia is the first train operating company in the Secretary of State’s crosshairs, and why the Government are choosing to rush this Second Reading through before recess. All of Greater Anglia’s services are running new trains. Some 94% of those trains arrive within three minutes of the scheduled time. The company manages to deliver that while paying a premium back to the Treasury. It is not failing. In fact, every single one of the top five performers across the network is a private provider. By contrast, are hon. Members aware which company accounts for more delays than anyone else?

    PASSENGER RAILWAY SERVICES (PUBLIC OWNERSHIP) BILL · 2024-07-29 · READ IN HANSARD

  47. I will give way but not right now because I heard the reaction. Right now, many European countries are in the process of unravelling their public models. They are introducing private provision and competition into their networks. The Dutch, the Czechs and members of the European Union will all be very confused to see us hurtling past them in the other direction. Of course, free enterprise does not always succeed. That is why we already have a system in place for times when state intervention would—or, at least, should—benefit passengers. As I am sure the Secretary of State knows, the Department for Transport is already running several train operating companies, such as Northern Trains, which was taken into public ownership back in 2020. Four years ago, when the state took it over, a measly 61% of its trains arrived on time.

    PASSENGER RAILWAY SERVICES (PUBLIC OWNERSHIP) BILL · 2024-07-29 · READ IN HANSARD

  48. I hope that they will return in the autumn with a Bill that jettisons the baggage of ideology and takes up the mantle of evidence—a Bill that will have more prospect of improving the rail service for passengers, because, as I said, I have no interest in opposing for opposition’s sake, but this Bill as it stands will not be receiving the support of His Majesty’s Loyal Opposition.

    PASSENGER RAILWAY SERVICES (PUBLIC OWNERSHIP) BILL · 2024-07-29 · READ IN HANSARD

  49. It seems as if he has given up on that battle already. All the same, I welcome the right hon. Lady to her post, and I do genuinely wish her well. I will gladly offer my support to anything that she does to make our railways more reliable and more affordable. This Bill will not do that. It is a rushed piece of left-wing ideology. The evidence, both here in the UK and across Europe, shows that an effective public/private model, where the incentives are properly aligned, delivers more choice, more passengers and greater efficiency. Over the next few weeks of recess, the Secretary of State and her team will have some time to reflect and reconsider.

    PASSENGER RAILWAY SERVICES (PUBLIC OWNERSHIP) BILL · 2024-07-29 · READ IN HANSARD

  50. She will now review all transport infrastructure plans, putting the entire transport pipeline into chaos, letting down communities across the country and letting down a fair few of her new colleagues, too. Those new colleagues will be dismayed to find that they campaigned on false promises to the electorate, and that their pledges to invest in economic growth and not to raise taxes were not even worth the glossy paper on which their leaflets were written. Although I know what it is like to lose an argument with the Chancellor, I do not share the experience that the Secretary of State and many of her colleagues will now be going through: of changing their tune just three weeks after they were given a mandate by the electorate and less than two weeks after their party leader had said that trust was the new battleground of politics.

    PASSENGER RAILWAY SERVICES (PUBLIC OWNERSHIP) BILL · 2024-07-29 · READ IN HANSARD